ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: iago on October 09, 2007, 04:48:59 PM
-
The Seventh Law of Magic is: Never Seek Knowledge and Power from Beyond the Outer Gates.
http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/news/archives/2007/10/the_laws_of_mag_5.php
-
Ooooh.... nifty.
Far too many 'grand villain' concepts will be born of that one! I should know, I have one already ;)
-
But players can also stumble across the Seventh Law, thanks to the particulars of its wording—namely, the prohibition against even researching the Outside.
I'm assuming this "wording'' refers to the fact that the Seventh Law forbids "Seeking Knowledge . . . from Beyond the Outer Gates". However, it seems to me that seeking knowledge from Beyond is not quite the same as seeking knowledge about it. Kind of like the difference between knowing theoretically how to build a bomb and actually building one. This brings up the question of why one would want to research the Ousiders, though. "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents" and all that.
The stuff about there being an actual artifact called a Blackstaff that the Blackstaff wields is neat, too*. Could there then be an unoffical/homebuilt version floating about somewhere? Maybe not even a copy (if it's so secret), but something someone came up with independently? Of course, the likelyhood of this is dependent on what it actually does.
*Did y'all make this up for the game, or is this another one of those details I glossed over reading the books?
-
The stuff about there being an actual artifact called a Blackstaff that the Blackstaff wields is neat, too*.
(snip)
*Did y'all make this up for the game, or is this another one of those details I glossed over reading the books?
I believe it to be canonical or, at the very least, Jim-confirmed. :)
-
I notice one key fact from the books that has not made it into the write-up here - that it is specifically mortal (human) magic that can open the gates. Most of the preternatural nasties around couldn't get hold of an outsider even if they wanted to. The fact that the vampires had aid from Outsiders was proof that there was a renegade wizard allied with them, back in Dead Beat. It seems very siginificant to me, somehow, that the most powerful supernatural monsters of them all are trapped, unable to escape without human intervention.
-
I notice one key fact from the books that has not made it into the write-up here - that it is specifically mortal (human) magic that can open the gates. Most of the preternatural nasties around couldn't get hold of an outsider even if they wanted to. The fact that the vampires had aid from Outsiders was proof that there was a renegade wizard allied with them, back in Dead Beat. It seems very siginificant to me, somehow, that the most powerful supernatural monsters of them all are trapped, unable to escape without human intervention.
Oh hey! That's an excellent point.
-
That's one law I parsed a little differently. I interpreted it as seeking knowledge and power while you yourself were beyond the outer gates.
-
That's one law I parsed a little differently. I interpreted it as seeking knowledge and power while you yourself were beyond the outer gates.
As I understand it, an individual fitting that description would last about 3 miliseconds there.
-
As I understand it, an individual fitting that description would last about 3 miliseconds there.
Hence why it's banned. Of course, just because the individual didn't last, doesn't mean the body didn't. And the body is of Earth...
-
As I understand it, an individual fitting that description would last about 3 miliseconds there.
Hence why it's banned. Of course, just because the individual didn't last, doesn't mean the body didn't. And the body is of Earth...
Yep, end up with a bad guy like the 'demon' from the movie Fallen with Denzel Washington. though He Who Follows Behind didn't seem to be that...well...self aware. More like something powerful that follows the instructions of the one who let/pulled it in.
It would be kind of an interesting twist to make one of these 'Powerful Evil Things' actually just wants to go home/back outside. The thing has to complete it's mission or it is stuck here as a shadow following it's prey in an insubstantial form until someone comes along and re-powers it.
Just a thought.
-
Even doing research on the Outside is verboten, setting aside actually pulling power from there.
I think this part goes too far. You might as well just say, "As soon as you see an Outsider commit suicide because you are not allowed to do any research to tell you how to protect yourself."
I believe this law should apply to attempting to reach through the Outer Gates to the beings there trying to gain knowledge or power. It should not apply to studying all information available on the Outsiders in our reality. If you can't study them how do you defend against them? It is said in the books that mortal magic is the only thing that can open the gates or summon them, but also that mortal magic has a LOT of trouble fighting them. So I can't believe the Law was written to stop people from learning how to protect themselves. So I would read all I could get my hands on in terms of known Outsider encounters. Conflicts involving Outsiders, such as the retreat in DB when the Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopped them with a Ward. How did they know what ward to use? How did they know the ward would be affective? Answer, they did research on the Outsiders and knew which magic and wards would work.
But if all you do is read up on known battles with Outsiders to find out what wards and magic are effective against them, even a little, and so as long as you do not attempt to open the gates, and or contact any powers beyond the Outer gates you should not be in violation of this Law.
-
I think this part goes too far.
Harry Dresden might agree with you.
The Merlin and other members of the Senior Council think otherwise. :)
-
The biggest problem with the Outsider issue is we don't really know how the interact with mortalkind. We don't where that slippery slope is from reading about them and studying them vs. calling upon them to do our bidding. JimB of course knows. Perhaps Merlin knows from second hand knowledge.
Perhaps even reading about them draws their attention to you. (Oooo. How Lovecraftian!) Perhaps the line between research and enslavement is too fine.
Sometimes it is best just not to know something at all. In a Lovecraftian world, ignorance is bliss till a tentacled monstrocity eats your face off. But maybe the act of researching them is what makes them eat your face off, and they would mostly leave you alone otherwise.
Thoughtful,
-LN
-
Harry Dresden might agree with you.
The Merlin and other members of the Senior Council think otherwise. :)
Of course, you could skew the meaning a different way.
"But Morgan, I'm not seeking knowledge from beyond the outer gates. All the knowledge I'm seeking is from Earth. It might be knowledge *about* the outer gates, but there's a big difference there. Really. It's just like there's a big difference between reanimating a dinosaur and reanimating a human."
-
The Merlin and other members of the Senior Council think otherwise.
Okay, then can I have their emergency contact information so they can come save me when an Outsider shows up? ;)
Makes me glad that in RPGs the general rule of thumb is that the rules are Guidelines and not carved in stone.
Please be aware though that I am not arguing that a raw rank apprentice should be involved in this kind of study. I can see the Merlin and Senior Council believing that only someone who is already very well grounded and stable, with decent experience, should be involved in this kind of research. But if they are going to ban all research then I sincerely hope that they are making information available on what defenses do work.
-
"But Morgan, I'm not seeking knowledge from beyond the outer gates. All the knowledge I'm seeking is from Earth. It might be knowledge *about* the outer gates, but there's a big difference there. Really. It's just like there's a big difference between reanimating a dinosaur and reanimating a human."
In my case the argument is, "I am not researching how to summon them. I am researching ways to defend myself and send them back when someone else summons them. Please excuse me for wanting to live through an encounter with one of them."
-
Okay, then can I have their emergency contact information so they can come save me when an Outsider shows up? ;)
Makes me glad that in RPGs the general rule of thumb is that the rules are Guidelines and not carved in stone.
Please be aware though that I am not arguing that a raw rank apprentice should be involved in this kind of study. I can see the Merlin and Senior Council believing that only someone who is already very well grounded and stable, with decent experience, should be involved in this kind of research. But if they are going to ban all research then I sincerely hope that they are making information available on what defenses do work.
That aforementioned well grounded and stable person has already been defined. He was nice enough to stick up for Harry. He trained him too, interspersing the training with wetwork for the Council.
;)
The point is that we know at least two people who have a fair amount of knowledge about the Outsiders, being the Gatekeeper and the Blackstaff (incidentally, it wasn't lost on me that both of these folks are titled wizards, fully trusted by the Senior Council to deal with the most extraordinary menaces...) It is likely that both have the purview of keeping an ear and eye open in such research. They would be folks of sound character and wisdom who would konw when to march forward and when to stop. When enough information is enough and what knowledge is actionable and which isn't.
It is painfully obvious that Merlin doesn't keep Harry in his confidence. Heaven's sake, Eb was honest and forthright with Harry, but only up to a degree. Knowledge is always power. Power in untrained, immature and emotive hands is freakin' dangerous. Hence, Harry has hard rules given to him.
Regarding RPGs, the GM or Storyteller is the one who determines which rules are guidelines and which are set in stop. If they say that the earth is in a binary system, hooray for "our two Suns". If you are running the game, make it the way that you will maximize your enjoyment as well as your players. If you are player, be vocal about what your interests are, but be ready to comprimise, as you are not the Storyteller or GM, who has to do that balancing act. No GM in their right mind is going to have Outsiders appear without some tools given to help defeat them. It wouldn't be fun for anyone but perhaps the GM.
(Rule 0: GM is always right. Rule 1: If the players aren't having fun, then the GM has to adapt.)
-LN
-
Yup, hence my note about the rules are guidelines. But it is the GM who decides where the lines get drawn. It is the mark of a good GM to be able to improvise on the fly. Lord knows how many times I had to add monsters, subtract monsters, fudge a die roll, allow on thing, disallow another. The trick is knowing where you want the story to end up, and be able to stear the players without them knowing they have been steared.
I miss playing any RPG. I haven't had a group to play with in several years.
-
I believe that even if it is possible to study outsider and the outside without being tainted in anyway the council would still disallow it. Torvaldr the council has never made a point of being fair or kind or logical, they are all fear driven dictators.
-
I have to agree there. Harry is the only wizard that seems to be willing to skirt the rules, and that is because he sees them as a bunch of Holier-than-thou pricks. And with the exception of a few, they are. Most of the higher up seem to want nothing more than to make sure that no one below them can un seat them in a power struggle that in reality will never happen. I can see, some of the rules as nessicary to keep the peace, buit the punishment delt out for most of the crimes are harsh without a chance for a fair trial. And the last law Is one of those ones that would be a unfair trial, it is so vague that the merlin can saw what ever he wants and it would have to stick.
-
I think this quote from the Law's page explains it quite well:
"As a rule of thumb, the Council sees it as a privilege allowed its own members, but off-limits for the rest of the supernatural practitioners out there. So even though it isn't directly in violation of the Seventh Law (or any other), the Wardens get real antsy about amateurs messing around with summoning. Even non-Outsider demons are dangerous in their own right.
Think of this as licensing on explosive compounds. If you know what you're doing, have a legitimate reason for their use (construction, demolition, mining, etc)—and you know how to be cautious, you can get them, even if you aren't someone military, and you'll have official (if occasionally supervised) approval to use them. If, on the other hand, you're just some guy who likes storing a few kilos of plastique in his garage, the authorities are not at all amused to find out about you."
-
That refers only to the summoning of regular demons, though, not Outsiders. Outsiders are forbidden entirely, to everyone except the Blackstaff-- and possibly, I suppose, the Gatekeeper.
It may be that research into the nature of the Outsiders, where they come from and what they can do, would lead all but the most cautious of wizards to believe that Outsiders could be dealt with safely. Wizards might feel that with the proper precautions the dangers are minimal, and the risks would be well worth the possible gains. It may be that the ultimate price and danger of dealing with Outsiders only becomes apparent later, years down the road, and by then it's too late to stop them without engaging in a full-scale war.
This could easily be how the Circle got started, for that matter. Cowl or some other wizard looked into knowledge and power from beyond the Outer Gates, and they found it, along with what seemed to be perfectly controllable risks.
-
I'm with Acornarmy on this one. I can also understand the wardens. The outsiders seem to be magical 'nukes'. I wouldn't want anyone to know how to get them, simple because, sooner or later, some punk will use one. And the only way to fight nukes, is with nukes. And, eventually, the outsiders will be able to come to this side at any time.
Kincaid said it best. Thus kaboom, thus death.
And as for defending yourself, there doesn't seem to be away. They are immune to most magic, and I doubt that they can be taken down with normal weapons.
After all, do you think Harry's that lucky. Surviving using only one well aimed bullet?
I didn't think so.
-
Thing is there obviously IS a way to defend yourself. After all the Merlin and the Gatekeeper raised a ward that not only stopped Outsiders. It stopped a LOT of them and a Red Court Army as well. It may be that it is not possible for your average wizard to raise that kind of ward, but again obviously there is some magic that works. But I can also see where it could be one of those slippery slope things. Kind of like the way Saruman became corrupted in the LOtR by researching ring lore. But if there are wards that will work, I think it behooves the Senior Council to let folks know what they are.
-
No, it didn't 'work' against them. It just gave the Council time to run away with their lives.
-
That is perfectly valid, time to get away. But I will have to go back and look at it again. I thought it was more effective than that. But even so, a ward strong enough to slow an Outsider down is good enough. That is better than nothing at all.
-
Yeah, but it took the Gatekeeper and the Merlin. That's about the same thing as having a couple nukes. And they only escaped. I figure I would take the whole White Council to do what they did. And you can only have 13 people in a circle.
-
Right, but again they were dealing with a lot of Outsiders and Red Court Vamps. If you were only dealing with one Outsider it may not take as many.
-
Maybe, but, based on what we know, I'm going to go ahead and say that we'd lose against Outsiders, unless you have serious back up of the supernatural variaty. Like Mab. In which case, while you survive the Outside, your still going to be screwed. Up the ass. With a crowbar.
-
Right, but again they were dealing with a lot of Outsiders and Red Court Vamps. If you were only dealing with one Outsider it may not take as many.
The biggest problem I have with Outsiders is that they are Fae tough, and highly! resistant to Magic. You will likely have to use Magic in a way that is entirely indirect, otherwise they will just shunt the effect and pound you 12 inches shorter with one swipe of a meaty tentacle.
Remember how Harry felt with he first came up against the Troll in a bowler in SK? He just shrugged off a big blast from the wand, once he was ready for it. Imagine folks who are *always* ready for it.
It isn't clear the number of Outsiders that nearly routed the White Council, except they are more than 1. Perhaps there were 13. Perhaps there were 3. Perhaps there were 1000s. It isn't very clear on this issue.
The number is important and I wish we had more info on the subject.
-LN
-
Yup. It was kind of like an old argument that cropped up in my old D&D game. If a wizard threw a lightning bolt at a creature that was resistant to magic, the creature could use that defense against it. If on the other hand a druid used his spell Call Lightning, it could not use its resistance. The difference? The wizard was creating electricity magically. The druid was calling natural electricity. The same could be said of Harry using magical fire as in FUEGO, and someone else using magic to cause a gas main to blow. The Outsider may be able to shrug off the magical fire, but still take damage from the flames and explosion caused by burning gas.
-
That's possible, but, until I get more information, I'm going to opperate under assumption that all Outsiders are BAMF's, and won't be taken down that easily. Because, frankly, Harry's not that lucky.
-
Oh I do not expect that it would be easy even if it did work that way. Look at it like this. Magical fire tingles and annoys. Real fire hurts. That doesn't mean it kills or injures, or incapacitates all at once. Only that it does have some affect. If you can understand Hero games systems, try something like this.
75% resistant damage reduction versus magical based attacks
25% to 50% resistant damage reduction versus natural based attacks
Notice that they always get SOME kind of damage reduction, just not as much against something natural. Remember they are not from our plane of existence, they are from "Outside", so maybe real natural forces could have some affect.
-
Ah, I understand. However, since they come from the Outside, it's also possible that normal things wouldn't work at all. I hope we learn something in 'Small Favor'.
-
Almost seems to me that (on the logic that they are "outside" and therefore completely unrelated to the laws of reality we are used to) pure magic would be the ONLY thing that would be effective against them. "Fuego" should fail to harm them because it's working on the logic that fire is hot and burns things, as would real fire, which IS hot and burns things. Outsiders aren't things though. They're something totally different. They don't obey the rules of our reality, and the only other thing in the Dresdenverse that doesn't follow the rules is magic.
If I was to try and come up with something to hurt a being that doesn't conform to our laws, I would probably just try to make it not be, attack it on the fundamental level of existence, which is something you can only really do with magic. I guess in WoD:Mage terms we'd be talking about Prime, or the Negative Energy spells from DnD. Something that just unmakes something rather than trying to harm it and stop it from functioning.
-
Almost seems to me that (on the logic that they are "outside" and therefore completely unrelated to the laws of reality we are used to) pure magic would be the ONLY thing that would be effective against them. "Fuego" should fail to harm them because it's working on the logic that fire is hot and burns things, as would real fire, which IS hot and burns things. Outsiders aren't things though. They're something totally different. They don't obey the rules of our reality, and the only other thing in the Dresdenverse that doesn't follow the rules is magic.
If I was to try and come up with something to hurt a being that doesn't conform to our laws, I would probably just try to make it not be, attack it on the fundamental level of existence, which is something you can only really do with magic. I guess in WoD:Mage terms we'd be talking about Prime, or the Negative Energy spells from DnD. Something that just unmakes something rather than trying to harm it and stop it from functioning.
There are two different things that are classified by the Outside. Things like Mordite, which are entirely orthogonal to our universe, hence, Outside. Then there are those creatures which have been banished Outside, such as the creatures such as Outsiders, those servants of the Lovecraftian greater creatures. The Outsiders had previously on lived on Earth and were worshiped. They have been pushed back to the Outside for the benefit of Man by wizardry.
-LN
-
Im thinking that the injunction on even researching the Outer Gates works much the same way as the Law against necromancy. While you can find technicalities to do a bit and still fall within the laws (yay Sue), generally speaking going near the stuff is bad enough, cause the whole practice is considered vile. The outer gates are just a worse version. Its like how concealed weapons are illegal (without a permit, but in thins case there is only the one permit around), even if you dont shoot anyone with them. Or even better, its like working with biological weapons: sure making new vaccines is all well and good, noble and such, but the research requires you to make new and potentially dangerous viruses (virii?) which you dont want just anyone to be playing with.
That being said you still run into the same problem Harry saw during DB with mind control: nobody does it so nobody knows how to teach proper defenses against it. The ward that stopped (or at least slowed) the Outsiders in DB was something done by the man said to be the most powerful wizard on earth (who also specializes in wards and defensive magic) and the man who is probably the actual most powerful wizard on earth (and a specialist in Outsiders and the Outer Gates). I doubt anyone else could have done it without harry's outsider connection and even he would have needed a lot more power and class to pull it off (guess he needs to stop collecting bottle caps or something :P)
On the Blackstaff as an artifact all its own, Harry once mentions that McCoy's staff came from the same grove in th Ozarks that Harry's did. Does that mean he's just wrong, or does Eb simply have two staffs (staves?). I dont see any reason why he couldn't , I had just always imagined the staff as more personal and...i dunno...attuned?... than that.
And you can only have 13 people in a circle.
??? Says who?
-
Says who?
Harry Dresden, when he talks about the number 13 in one of the earliest books.
-
Ah, found it in SF (I really need to read the early books more, I tend to re-read the "save the world several years in a row" books more)
So if you can only use thirteen in a circle, does that mean there are only 13 members of Cowl's "Circle"? That would be encouraging, from a perspective of simple enemy manpower. And I think we can safely assume that Cowl is pretty close to the top of their power food chain, otherwise he wouldn't have been to one chosen to go after Godhood in DB.
Brings up another point though:
"Thirteen," I corrected her. "You can never use more than thirteen. But I don't think that's very likely. It's a bitch to do. Everyone in the circle has to be committed to the spell, have no doubts, no reservations. And they have to trust one another implicitly. You don't see that kind of thing from your average gang of killers. It just isn't something that's going to happen, outside of some kind of fanaticism. A cult or political organization."
Do you think members of the BC would be able to muster that kind of trust?
-
Ah, found it in SF (I really need to read the early books more, I tend to re-read the "save the world several years in a row" books more)
So if you can only use thirteen in a circle, does that mean there are only 13 members of Cowl's "Circle"? That would be encouraging, from a perspective of simple enemy manpower. And I think we can safely assume that Cowl is pretty close to the top of their power food chain, otherwise he wouldn't have been to one chosen to go after Godhood in DB.
Brings up another point though:
Do you think members of the BC would be able to muster that kind of trust?
But what if the reason he went after power was because he needed more of it, he could have been the weekest of them who they sent on a mission with a low chance of success.
I see the Outsiders as either aliens or animal versions of Nevernever being as I outlined here.
The Animalistic Theory: they are from the Nevernever of animals whose thoughts and dreams give them shape as ours do the Fay and the rest of the Nevernever.
And The Alienist Theory: that they are from the Nevernever of an alien race, this is not impossible as Jim Butcher has already involved true aliens in the Codex Alera books.
-
"Thing is there obviously IS a way to defend yourself. After all the Merlin and the Gatekeeper raised a ward that not only stopped Outsiders. It stopped a LOT of them and a Red Court Army as well. It may be that it is not possible for your average wizard to raise that kind of ward, but again obviously there is some magic that works."
I think this is where we get in to potential refinements, specializations and FATE points on aspects. If the PC starts with 5-7 aspects, and no refinement, by the time you get to the level of Merlin or Blackstaff, you are talking about whipping out spells with 20+ shifts as a matter of course. I don't expect my campaign to ever get to the PC's having that level of power.
"But I can also see where it could be one of those slippery slope things. Kind of like the way Saruman became corrupted in the LOtR by researching ring lore. But if there are wards that will work, I think it behooves the Senior Council to let folks know what they are."
I like this idea. I also see "outsiders" as vaguely lovecraftian as in "if you can see them, they can see you" (and your lifespan is Dramatically Shortened), with some Tentacle Hentai thrown in just for the eeww factor.
-
Woah, newtinmpls, you just broke the 5th law!
-
The Law against Outside is the only one that forbids even doing research on the matter. There's nothing that forbids a wizard from researching methods of controlling minds or raising the dead, as long as they don't actuallly use those spells. (Although if discovered, there probably would be a LOT of questions being asked.)
So, going with my theory that the Laws are rule-of-thumb statements of metaphysical reality, there must be something about even asking questions that is inherently dangerous. Perhaps asking questions leads to the arrogance that you could successful summon and control an Outsider safely. Perhaps doing the research opens those cracks in the Doors ever so slightly, and Things get through. Or, maybe, if you do enough research, your mind is open to contact from Outside...
-
I like the last idea the best. If you do enough research, your mind is opened just enough, a crack in the door -- enough for them to make contact. After that...
-
Perhaps asking questions leads to the arrogance that you could successful summon and control an Outsider safely. Perhaps doing the research opens those cracks in the Doors ever so slightly, and Things get through. Or, maybe, if you do enough research, your mind is open to contact from Outside...
"Don't wrack your memory. Don't blaze the trail.
Don't pine for primeval jungles. Don't pierce the veil.
Don't look for answers years down the road.
Don’t copy down the glyphs that your visions showed."
"Some Things Man Was Not Meant To Know (http://www.lyricstime.com/the-darkest-of-the-hillside-thickets-epilogue-some-things-man-was-not-meant-to-know-lyrics.html)" - The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets
-
"Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril." Oscar Wilde
And maybe the peril of others as well?
-
"The Law against Outside is the only one that forbids even doing research on the matter. So, going with my theory that the Laws are rule-of-thumb statements of metaphysical reality, there must be something about even asking questions that is inherently dangerous."
Think of Socrates...
-
The Law against Outside is the only one that forbids even doing research on the matter. So, going with my theory that the Laws are rule-of-thumb statements of metaphysical reality, there must be something about even asking questions that is inherently dangerous.
Or the power and knowledge offered by the Outsiders is so tempting, while the threat they pose is so subtle and insidious, that the Council doesn't trust people to realize the danger before it's too late.
-
That would certainly fit how the Council thinks; but I like the idea that the basic concept of the Laws are sound (if not totally understood). The Council now interprets the Laws in a self-serving manner...but there is a hard and fast reason why they are there.
Perhaps thinking too much, knowing too much about the Outsiders does automatically weaken the Doors. And how much is too much? This isn't an area that you really want to do research in...
-
maybe that is what Thomas is fighting in the novella Backup
-
maybe that is what Thomas is fighting in the novella Backup
Sensible. If they are Cthulu-esque monsters then the doors might merely be composed of how much they don't fit into our universe. The more they are understood by denizens of our reality, the more they do fit into it (so to speak).
-
Sensible. If they are Cthulu-esque monsters then the doors might merely be composed of how much they don't fit into our universe. The more they are understood by denizens of our reality, the more they do fit into it (so to speak).
...and seeking knowledge of them only gives them power so the 'outer gates' in question is humanity's ignorance and willful disbelief.