ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on October 06, 2023, 11:30:22 AM
-
We know that Lea got it at the now infamous party. We know that Mab had it for a short time anyway, there is a line about Harry seeing her wearing it in her belt. We know that it fell into Maeve's hands where it did a lot of damage, to her. We now know that the Athame was infested or contaminated with Nemesis.. Mab didn't even realize it until it was apparently too late for her daughter to be saved. "It was the Knife..." Interesting scene there in the chapel in the hospital in Small Favor. Mab was really pissed, I think more at herself than Harry because she had screwed up and her daughter would eventually pay the price. Which brings us to my question; What happened to the Athame after all of that? Is it locked away? Destroyed? Decontaminated to be used on another day? Can it even be decontaminated? I don't remember anything said about that in the books, however I don't know if there is a WOJ out there about it, does anyone know?
-
Something that damaging needs to be stored in Demonreach.
-
Something that damaging needs to be stored in Demonreach.
Hmph not to play The Devils (Merlin's) Advocate but Harry has enough WMD's locked up in Demonreach. Any more would just be suspicious.
-
Hmph not to play The Devils (Merlin's) Advocate but Harry has enough WMD's locked up in Demonreach. Any more would just be suspicious.
Not only that, but unless it was certified free and clear of Nemesis, other than in a max security cell, you wouldn't want it near Demonreach. I wouldn't trust it in as cell either if it comes to that.
-
Demonreach can release different parts of a thing, whilst it may deleterious to remove a Lady’s Mantle to the Lady, it could disinfect the Athame like an autoclave. There is a very good reason Mab hasn’t asked for this.
She would have to ask a favour of Harry as Warden as the Winter Knight could not. Pride.
-
Since it is Mab's current purpose in existence to defend against the Outside, I'd think she was completely capable of neutralizing a Nemesis vector once she has it in her control. There's no reason to think that she hasn't destroyed/purified that knife and ended its threat.
-
... We know that it fell into Maeve's hands ...
Do we, though?
Know that Maeve actually ever got her hands on the Athame?
That was the vector that got Lea; that was how it got into the Winter Court, overall.
But I've thought it an open question whether Maeve got Nemfected directly from the Athame, or by "catching it" like a disease, directly from Lea (possibly via some very elaborate ritual, "inflicting" it on her; possibly from just "hanging out" together). But also, Nemesis-prodded Lea could simply have laid some other Nemptation into Maeve's path (who has always seemed impulsive & tempestuous; even if some of it is "just an act," she sometimes does the thing just to maintain the facade).
-
Do we, though?
Know that Maeve actually ever got her hands on the Athame?
That was the vector that got Lea; that was how it got into the Winter Court, overall.
But I've thought it an open question whether Maeve got Nemfected directly from the Athame, or by "catching it" like a disease, directly from Lea (possibly via some very elaborate ritual, "inflicting" it on her; possibly from just "hanging out" together). But also, Nemesis-prodded Lea could simply have laid some other Nemptation into Maeve's path (who has always seemed impulsive & tempestuous; even if some of it is "just an act," she sometimes does the thing just to maintain the facade).
My impression was that Maeve did have the Knife at one point, from what Mab tells Harry in Cold Days, though it is possible that though the Knife brought Nemesis to the Court, she picked it up some other way.. Anyway, here is the passage from Cold Days page 503 Harry asks her about being so pissed a few years back in the chapel, i.e. Small Favor
"A few years back, you got angry. So angry that when you spoke it made people bleed from the ears. That was why. Because you figured out that the adversary had taken Maeve. And it hurt. To know that the adversary had gotten to her."
"It was the Knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone--but her eyes were far away.
"The one given her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That's how Leanansidhe was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
It is vague and could go either way, Lea may have let Maeve handle the Knife for a bit before Mab heard about it and took it away from both of them. Remember the line where Harry says he sees the Knife in Mab's belt. Or Nemesis is contagious to those who are emotionally vulnerable, which Maeve really was, she had many issues.. Either way, it doesn't answer the question of where the Knife is now. Mab said, "before she could set it right?" Meaning what? Destroy the Knife? Heal Lea, but too late to heal Maeve?
-
... ... That's how Leanansidhe was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve ...
...
That looks to me very much like an explicit statement that the Nemfection proceeded Athame --> Lea --> Maeve.
You could interpret it as Lea using the Athame to Nemfect Maeve... But that isn't the simple & straightforward reading, it's a more contrived reading.
On the other hand, the fae do love their tricksy language, implying something without overtly stating it as a fact.
But I think Mab would have needed an objective, here -- why would she want to mislead Harry about this?
-
That looks to me very much like an explicit statement that the Nemfection proceeded Athame --> Lea --> Maeve.
But it doesn't say how, does it?
That's how Leanansidhe was tainted--and your godmother spread it to Maeve
It implies that Nemesis is catching like the measles, but we know it isn't that simple.
When Harry says to Mab that it must have hurt her to see her daughter infested with Nemesis..
She answers;
"It was the Knife."
The Knife was the original source of the infection, implying like bad potato salad at a party, those who ate it got food poisoning. Lea may have brought the salad to the party, ate some and offered Maeve a spoon of it, so both got sick, but again not that simple.
On the other hand, the fae do love their tricksy language, implying something without overtly stating it as a fact.
But I think Mab would have needed an objective, here -- why would she want to mislead Harry about this?
I don't think she was, or rather she may have not wanted him to know that she herself was in danger of infection, lets not forget she wore it for at least one scene in her belt. I believe she, herself was taking the cure in Proven Guilty... Which makes sense since both she and Lea had direct contact with the infected Knife. However if Maeve didn't have direct contact with the Knife and still got infected, something else is going on. Also at some point Cat Sith was also infected, how did that happen? Which could very well be the case as you say, then Mab missed it because she assumed that direct contact was needed.. That's why her anger in the chapel back in Small Favor, she was fooled and her daughter paid the price. Or she wants Harry to get to the bottom of it, but because it is Nemesis won't come out and say it, that would be very Mab-like..
Back to the original question, so what happened to this tainted object?
-
The Fae don’t share so no nothing was offered to Maeve by Lea.
Remember though that Nameless was fully part of Winter at this time, and I posit him to be Cowl. Mab was always distrustful of Nameless and she undoubtedly warned Lea and Maeve, which is why the Athame had to go via a circuitous route to Lea.
Maeve on the other hand upon getting the warning would have immediately sought out Nameless and attached him to her Court, most likely leading to the Redcap also joining. In GP Maeve in her first meeting with Harry mentions that “he” had told her Harry was completely intractable, when challenged about who “he” was Maeve dismissed the matter. I think “he” was Nameless/Cowl.
There may therefore have been more than one infection vector, Cowl/Nameless couldn’t get to Lea but the Athame could, whereas he could work directly with Maeve, freeing her from the restrictions she was subject to.
-
The Fae don’t share so no nothing was offered to Maeve by Lea ...
Except that Nemfection allows for rule-breaking, so maybe Lea could share.
Also -- entirely within the rules -- Lea could have made a bargain with Maeve, offering Maeve some power in return for something else.
-
Maeve would accept an unsolicited gift. Fae don’t share. Nor would she enter into a bargain with an liegewoman of Mab, as Mab showed Harry Mab can take over such an obligation.
-
... Nor would she enter into a bargain with an liegewoman of Mab, as Mab showed Harry Mab can take over such an obligation.
A bargain completed & fulfilled, would leave no obligation.
Harry hadn't fulfilled; he had an obligation.
-
I don't think it went onward from Mab.
Maybe she has a Vault, like Hades; or some Island, like Harry.
Maybe she's still carrying it, under a glamour... or just fastened on a leg-sheath where it passes un-noticed.
Maybe she's wrestling, even now, with Nemesis.
-
I don't think it went onward from Mab.
Maybe she has a Vault, like Hades; or some Island, like Harry.
Maybe she's still carrying it, under a glamour... or just fastened on a leg-sheath where it passes un-noticed.
Maybe she's wrestling, even now, with Nemesis.
That last one would be a stunner wouldn't! Imagine in the final battle Mab turning on Molly and Harry, or finally winning her final battle and sacrificing herself kind of like Lash in a spectacular way.
-
That last one would be a stunner wouldn't!
Honestly, I more-or-less expect this.
I think Mab wanted Harry, in part, because she thought -- when (not if!) worse came to worst -- that Harry has a better chance to take her out than any Winter Knight for the past thousand years.
Right now, she opposes the Outsiders. She is already laying plans against herself, for the time when she no longer opposes them.
I can't remember the book, something where Mab is doing something she said she'd do. Mab said something like "the stars will fall from the sky, ere Mab keep not her word." Which, to be honest, sounds an awful lot like a prophecy to me: there will be a rain of shooting stars, and Mab will break her sworn word... just exactly as if she were Nemfected... And she was warning Harry, years in advance.
-
I can't remember the book, something where Mab is doing something she said she'd do. Mab said something like "the stars will fall from the sky, ere Mab keep not her word." Which, to be honest, sounds an awful lot like a prophecy to me: there will be a rain of shooting stars, and Mab will break her sworn word... just exactly as if she were Nemfected... And she was warning Harry, years in advance.
Which sort of fits with the "stars and stones" oath that Harry is always saying. In Peace Talks Eb warns Harry about using that oath so much because he doesn't really understand, not yet anyway the meaning of what he is saying. However when Harry asks him what it means, Eb is evasive and wouldn't answer.
Nemesis is sly, and star born or not, Harry didn't pick up on Justine's infection until it was almost too late and the penetration of Demonreach would have been successful. Of course Harry had had a lot on his plate at that moment along with injury and exhaustion. It is beginning to look to my way of thinking that the Fomor were just another cat's paw of Nemesis. The infestation of Justine was just the tip of the spear to involve Thomas because Harry's reaction was predictable.. The reaction of the White Council, Winter Court etc were also predictable, and that the whole invasion of Chicago was merely a diversion to penetrate Demonreach with the tip of the spear, HWWB, who was infesting Justine. Once inside Demonreach's defenses, HWWB could have caused havoc, even a massive jail break.
So yeah, it could very well be that Mab is infested, but the plans of Nemesis are so subtle, so long range that no one has spotted it as of yet.. And like you say, the Athame is going to play a huge role in that.
-
Which sort of fits with the "stars and stones" oath that Harry is always saying ...
Just so!
... It is beginning to look to my way of thinking that the Fomor were just another cat's paw of Nemesis ...
I think that's a given. Remember, the Outsiders launched a massive attack, precisely coordinated with Ethniu & the Fomor.
... So yeah, it could very well be that Mab is infested, but the plans of Nemesis are so subtle, so long range that no one has spotted it as of yet ...
Like I said previously: I think that -- if Mab has indeed been Nemfected -- she is still resisting; she is still Mab, and not an agent of Nemesis.
-
Like I said previously: I think that -- if Mab has indeed been Nemfected -- she is still resisting; she is still Mab, and not an agent of Nemesis.
So it would seem, but how long was Justine infected? The plans for her were not achieved in a day.
If Mab is infested, it is deep seated and so hidden she herself may not be aware of it. Like I said, she put herself through the cure like she put Lea through. Was it just prophylactic because she had been exposed to the Knife? Or did she feel symptoms coming on? Even Mab might think she had dodged a bullet as far as infection goes, and after treatment carry on as Mab.. I think not fighting it, simply because she doesn't think she is infected any longer because of the cure. You can bet she tested Lea before she was released, but who tested her? We don't know how great an emotional blow the loss of Maeve was to her, what if something happened to Sarissa as well?
-
... If Mab is infested, it is deep seated and so hidden she herself may not be aware of it.
It's possible.
I think she knows, though. I think she expects to lose... eventually. If she thought she had a good replacement to hand, she'd engineer her own death.
But who would become Queen?
Molly, she thinks, is too weak; before Molly, the (Nemfected) Maeve would have been a disaster!
Lea is still too vulnerable to Nemesis... another disaster waiting in the wings, with Lea is the next-most likely person to inherit a Wintermantle when one of them needs a new host.
What if there's other Nemfected? Another likely Winter-y candidate, secretly Nemfected and waiting for a Mantle...?
So Mab dare not pass her Mantle on to another... even though she knows her Nemfection will (eventually) overcojme her. She needs to hold on, until a better option becomes available.
It's a very Ice-Queen solution, a very control-freak perspective.
It's very, very desperate.
-
I think she knows, though. I think she expects to lose... eventually. If she thought she had a good replacement to hand, she'd engineer her own death.
If this is true, what better evidence that Nemesis is lurking in her head somewhere.
Molly, she thinks, is too weak; before Molly, the (Nemfected) Maeve would have been a disaster!
But Molly isn't weak, she may still be a little too human for Fae taste, but Battle Ground proved she wasn't weak.. Again who'd plant that idea in Mab's head to the point where she wanted her Knight to kill her if she died so she wouldn't replace her. Who'd that serve? You guessed it, Nemesis.
Lea is still too vulnerable to Nemesis... another disaster waiting in the wings, with Lea is the next-most likely person to inherit a Wintermantle when one of them needs a new host.
My point exactly.
So Mab dare not pass her Mantle on to another... even though she knows her Nemfection will (eventually) overcojme her. She needs to hold on, until a better option becomes available.
Or this is what Nemesis wants her to believe, think how dangerous a really paranoid Mab would be, to the world, not the Outside.
-
Demonreach can release different parts of a thing, whilst it may deleterious to remove a Lady’s Mantle to the Lady, it could disinfect the Athame like an autoclave. There is a very good reason Mab hasn’t asked for this.
She would have to ask a favour of Harry as Warden as the Winter Knight could not. Pride.
Perhaps she doesn't want to owe Harry. Perhaps it would be more dangerous to separate the athame from Nemesis, though.
Ejecting the knife of power from the prison and keeping Nemesis confined might allow it a shot at Alfred.
It also might not, but even uncertainty on the issue is an excellent reason not to try.
-
Perhaps she doesn't want to owe Harry. Perhaps it would be more dangerous to separate the athame from Nemesis, though.
Ejecting the knife of power from the prison and keeping Nemesis confined might allow it a shot at Alfred.
It also might not, but even uncertainty on the issue is an excellent reason not to try.
At this point anyway there is more we don't know about Nemesis than we do know. Heck until Harry forced an answer out of Titania, interesting scene that since she would like him dead, it was simply known as the adversary. Even Mother Summer hesitated to call it by any other name and said it was safer to do so. So that being the case, and the lengths Nemesis has already gone to to try and infiltrate the island, best it would seem that the Athame stay where it is.. Or not, if it couldn't be kept secure in Demonreach prison, could Mab really hope to keep it any safer?
-
At this point anyway there is more we don't know about Nemesis than we do know...
Very true!
I wonder who does know more?
Titania likely knows more than she said. Mab, I'm sure; and Odin. Maeve looped-in Lily, but only to deceive her, and we don't know what Molly and/or Sarissa know. Several (if not all) of the Fallen, and Uriel of course. [ Maybe Harry could get another Shadow, spend a few years converting it to an ally, and learn that way... YeahNo, I know: not gonna happen, and also a Terrible Idea ]
Ferrovax certainly knows something. Also Drakul (who may be an Outsider, trapped in a mortal's body).
Who might, in particular, be able to tell Harry more? The fae likely cannot: it's "valuable info" and Harry cannot afford to purchase it. Lea might be an exception, if she's still acting as his Faerie Godmother (when does that expire, if ever?)
Ebenezer? Perhaps... but perhaps not. He's aware of Outsiders, broadly-speaking (likely knows more than about them than Harry, e.g. recognized "Cornerhounds" & their strengths/weaknesses, educated Harry); but Eb seems focused on the "Black Council" and I don't think we've seen him ever show signs of knowing about Nemesis...?
Odin has been willing to give info to Harry "for free." But only in a few specific cases, and we don't know if this qualifies.
Does Kincaid know? Or Goodman Grey? Other supernatural merc's? (because, by definition, merc's are in the biz of selling their expertise).
I wonder if the Warden could compel the info from Ethniu, or from any other prisoners in the Well?
Harry had a binder of supernatural sources... summoned a Loa who seemed to have an inside track even on Angelic-level sources!
Any other way(s) for him to learn about Nemesis (and/or more about the Starborn thing)?
-
Go to the man on the spot, Rashiid. If anyone knows Outsiders, it's him.
-
Go to the man on the spot, Rashiid. If anyone knows Outsiders, it's him.
Excellent point (and an embarrassing oversight from my list)!
But again, I've got to wonder just how much Rashid would be willing to inform Harry...?
He has repeatedly shown that he likes to Keep Secrets(tm) (he does it at least as much as any other wizard does)!
-
Excellent point (and an embarrassing oversight from my list)!
But again, I've got to wonder just how much Rashid would be willing to inform Harry...?
He has repeatedly shown that he likes to Keep Secrets(tm) (he does it at least as much as any other wizard does)!
True, but he has also leveled with Harry a bit more that any other wizard has, except maybe Listens to Wind... However he is constantly testing him as well, Rashid seems to have his own agenda as far as Harry goes.