ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Magicpockets on February 23, 2013, 12:02:42 PM

Title: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Magicpockets on February 23, 2013, 12:02:42 PM
Hello all,
in our last game, there's be an interesting development, ending in a Mexican standoff between the three player characters. This takes place after the events of Grave Peril. Here's the rundown:
(click to show/hide)

TL;DR Description:
-Venatori Umbrorum acquire means of taking out Black Court.
-They abduct Black Court Elder in San Francisco, who is sometime ally of the group, and ship her to execution site (locked in her coffin).
-PCs notice this, and travel there. My character sides with Venatori, other two side with Black Court.
-Mexican standoff ensues.

Characters and motivations:
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Here's the dilemma:
-Neither side is willing to shift from their point of view, both ingame and on a meta level.
-We are all good friends IRL, and have known each other for a long time. The outcome is unlikely to affect that, no matter how it goes.
-The discussion the characters held was RP'd without any rolls. Should it come to social combat, my character and the arms dealer are closely matched, with him holding a slight edge. The werewolf is about 1-2 ranks lower on social skills.
-Both sides have announced that they're perfectly willing to engage in physical violence. My character holds the edge in a physical conflict, although the werewolf is closely matched.
-Letting the Black Court Elder live is immensely detrimental to my character, and completely out of character for him. My character has stated his reasons for killing her, and unless the coffin is soundproof, she now knows that he considers her an enemy. On the other hand, killing the Black Court Elder will shatter intra-party harmony, leading to PvP.
-Intra party harmony is pretty damaged anyway, with the werewolf stating that she no longer trusts my character, and the arms dealer proclaiming that he'd rather side with the Black Court to eradicate the Venatori if that will prevent war.

So, how should we go about this? I have considered conceding to uphold intra party harmony, but all possible concessions seem incredibly lame, and would mean a major arsepull. Going through with what I had in mind (opening the coffin and exposing the Vampire to sunlight) would lead to physical conflict, possibly resulting in one or two dead player characters. Tbh, them siding with the Black Court was a WTF moment for me at the table.

If you need more information, feel free to ask.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Deadmanwalking on February 23, 2013, 12:27:27 PM
Play it out. If anyone dies, have them make a new character. Maybe make some kind of statement like "However this turns out, no hard feelings, right guys?" if that's appropriate IC, so any survivors can continue working together. If that doesn't work, maybe have one or more losers wind up the 'main villain' for the next bit (as an NPC, obviously).

Really, sounds like a very interesting and fun plotline, all things considered.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: blackstaff67 on February 23, 2013, 01:41:02 PM
BCV must also have one HELL of a way to disguise her odor as well from others, given that she's an animated corpse.  Ewwww.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: UmbraLux on February 23, 2013, 04:14:48 PM
I'm a bit surprised any of the PCs are siding with the Black Court.  Completely in-character, you might suggest they read up on Chamberlain and how well appeasement worked.   ;)

That said, the Black Court isn't exactly a major danger post Bram Stoker.  From a purely political point of view the Summer Knight could easily shrug and walk away if saving a BCV is that important to his (presumably) friends.  Of course personal risks and motivations may modify that. 

As for the Venatori & Venatori Umbrorum, the former won't target the BCVs unless they're meddling and the latter usually use less direct methods.  Said indirect methods could well be used against the PCs if they're interfering...   ;D 

Suggestion - try talking the other PCs into making it a simple kill instead of the opening conflict of the war.  In other words, stake the BCV instead of doing whatever ritual the VU had planned.  It limits personal risk by not letting go a vampire who may have heard too much while keeping the conflict at a personal level instead of starting a potential war.  Seems to meet both sides' motivations as listed. 
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: noclue on February 23, 2013, 08:00:32 PM
What's wrong with a rumble? Seems like everyone's locked and loaded.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Taran on February 24, 2013, 03:09:31 AM
The accords.  As a representative of the summer court, are you allowed to participate in the total annihilation of another signatory?

So while you may want to destroy the blacks, you may not be able to without starting a larger scale war.  Who knows what other powers the blacks aligned with.  Does summer want to get embroiled in such a potential war?
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 24, 2013, 03:56:43 AM
The situation seems to be whether  or not he will interfere with a 3rd party wiping out the blamps.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Magicpockets on February 24, 2013, 08:48:23 AM
The situation seems to be whether  or not he will interfere with a 3rd party wiping out the blamps.

This is indeed the case. The character would prevent the other PCs from stopping the execution, and carry it out himself if no one else is able to. Whether or not he will further participate in the annihilation of the BC is open right now.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Taran on February 24, 2013, 12:34:33 PM
My point is helping out that 3rd party wipe out the blamps may pull the summer court into a war with another powerful faction.  My point is that you may not be able to help or participate in such a thing.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Magicpockets on February 24, 2013, 01:34:02 PM
My point is helping out that 3rd party wipe out the blamps may pull the summer court into a war with another powerful faction.  My point is that you may not be able to help or participate in such a thing.

Does "preventing another third party from interfering" count? Especially if said party is not a signatory.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Taran on February 24, 2013, 01:38:24 PM
I wouldn't think you'd need to participate in either case.  Helping the BCV could possibly garner allies...but probably not.  I do think that actively helping any 3rd party destroy a signatory would open a can of worms.  Which might be fun, but it might also be a significant reason to step aside in the matter.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Vairelome on February 24, 2013, 01:48:01 PM
My point is helping out that 3rd party wipe out the blamps may pull the summer court into a war with another powerful faction.  My point is that you may not be able to help or participate in such a thing.

The Summer Court has no reason to be remotely sympathetic to the remnants of the Black Court.  Summer is a life/growth/sun-oriented faction; BCVs are animate corpses with a broad swathe of weaknesses that Summer can casually exploit at will.  Further, why would the post-Stoker Black Court be described as a "powerful faction," particularly with reference to the Summer Court?

So, how should we go about this? I have considered conceding to uphold intra party harmony, but all possible concessions seem incredibly lame, and would mean a major arsepull. Going through with what I had in mind (opening the coffin and exposing the Vampire to sunlight) would lead to physical conflict, possibly resulting in one or two dead player characters. Tbh, them siding with the Black Court was a WTF moment for me at the table.

If you need more information, feel free to ask.

Yeah, I'd be totally on the WTF team as well.  Now, with the other characters' motivations factored in, I can see where they are coming from, but with that in mind, I don't see how this was supposed to resolve without being an epic trainwreck.  The werewolf is stuck in the position of "my backstory does not have enough information for me to make wise decisions," and the arms dealer is working an angle that's too clever by half.  I can sympathize; I've played characters that have screwed up by the numbers in each of those ways.

In my opinion, this is a situation the DM should have headed off a while back, but I'm also the type of player that finds PvP extremely frustrating and not at all fun.  If your group can handle IC PvP and enjoy it, by all means, have fun, but it sounds like the situation was an accident that snowballed.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Taran on February 24, 2013, 01:51:49 PM
The Summer Court has no reason to be remotely sympathetic to the remnants of the Black Court.  Summer is a life/growth/sun-oriented faction; BCVs are animate corpses with a broad swathe of weaknesses that Summer can casually exploit at will.  Further, why would the post-Stoker Black Court be described as a "powerful faction," particularly with reference to the Summer Court?

They aren't a powerful faction.  Especially if you wipe them out.  They may have allies, though, that will retaliate.  That is what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Vairelome on February 24, 2013, 02:03:14 PM
They aren't a powerful faction.  Especially if you wipe them out.  They may have allies, though, that will retaliate.  That is what I was trying to say.

Ah, I see what you mean now.  On the other hand, in the novels, the modern remnant of the Black Court had no significant allies of that sort, and the history of Black Court relations strongly suggests no allies of that degree.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: blackstaff67 on February 24, 2013, 08:00:32 PM
If you can call a BCV an ally without having your soul commit seppukku.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Vairelome on February 25, 2013, 12:12:44 AM
If you can call a BCV an ally without having your soul commit seppukku.

Well, you could be profoundly ignorant and naive (and wrong), like the werewolf character described above.  The lack of familiarity with what BCVs really are combined with a backstory that makes the werewolf trust a BCV over a Summer Court PC(!) is a giant "Kick Me" sign on her back...just with, like, exponents.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Theonlyspiral on February 25, 2013, 06:14:59 AM
I'd kill the vampire. You've said that you'll be friends after, so no foul there. Could your character live with himself if he missed this chance to rid the world of that undead filth?
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: noclue on February 25, 2013, 04:13:07 PM
Going through with what I had in mind (opening the coffin and exposing the Vampire to sunlight) would lead to physical conflict, possibly resulting in one or two dead player characters.

Well, the rules will only take a PC out. It takes players to kill them. And they have the ability to concede before that right?

I'm having trouble seeing the issue, actually. Have the epic battle and then assess if the story is over or if there's any more meat in the campaign once the dust settles.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Magicpockets on February 25, 2013, 07:54:44 PM
Ok, here are some updates on the situation:
-The DM is heavily opposed to letting dicerolls decide the situation, and unless all players agree, combat won't happen.
-The DM, when in doubt, will side with the majority of players. Which means against me.
-The annihilation of the Black Court is seen as "genocide". Don't know what to say about that.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Lavecki121 on February 25, 2013, 08:02:52 PM
I...dont like your gm....
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 25, 2013, 08:05:39 PM
It is genocide of a sort...though as the Summer Knight you're not nesscarily concerned about the survival of other supernatural beings just your own Court eh? I might have missed it...but why is your group wanting to prevent this vampire's demise?
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Magicpockets on February 25, 2013, 08:15:09 PM
I...dont like your gm....

He really isn't a bad guy, and is awesome to play with. It's just some decisions that tend to blindside me.

It is genocide of a sort...though as the Summer Knight you're not nesscarily concerned about the survival of other supernatural beings just your own Court eh? I might have missed it...but why is your group wanting to prevent this vampire's demise?

Werewolf: the Rukh is her friend and lover, and from her PoV, the feeling seems genuine and mutual.
Arms Dealer: He fears the conflict will escalate to encompass all Vampire courts, and in turn target his wife, who is an Infected.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Taran on February 25, 2013, 08:24:07 PM
Ok, here are some updates on the situation:
-The DM is heavily opposed to letting dicerolls decide the situation, and unless all players agree, combat won't happen.
-The DM, when in doubt, will side with the majority of players. Which means against me.
-The annihilation of the Black Court is seen as "genocide". Don't know what to say about that.

So where are all the compels?

You should get oodles of FP's for being forced to act against what you think your character should do, especially if your GM is going "majority rules" which seems unfair...or you should get oodles of FP's to be compelled to do what you think your character should do. 

EIther way, you should get oodles of FP's.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 25, 2013, 08:34:01 PM
I agree with Taran on the Compels.

The other characters seem to have good (if misguided reasons) for wanting to let her live. Take some Fate for compels if your group/GM wants you helping them if not...your character has to do what he has to do!
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Lavecki121 on February 25, 2013, 10:46:57 PM
Well i am going off of that one thing that you said he did. But yes if it ends up that way you should get fate points. Also I still dont understand why the arms dealer thinks his wife will be targeted. She is only infected and as far as i can tell nobody could force her into something even if she is infected.
(click to show/hide)
It may even benefit him to rid the world of reds, since they are responsible for trying to turn his wife, and she could turn at any moment.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Vairelome on February 25, 2013, 11:11:38 PM
-The annihilation of the Black Court is seen as "genocide". Don't know what to say about that.

This is an attitude I've seen on the forums before.  I think it develops out of an unconscious belief that True Evil is an impossible concept, to the point that it can't even exist in a fictional(!) universe.  100% of the evidence from the books and JB's commentary lead directly to the conclusion that exterminating every last BCV would be a Good Thing of the highest order--and yet you will still get some people who insist on forcing a morally degenerate "coexist" solution to the Always Chaotic Evil monsters.

At least your werewolf player was only accidentally set up such that the most logical decisions lead to the worst outcomes, rather than intentionally.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 25, 2013, 11:16:45 PM
@Vairelome
As someone that believes in relative morality and that this applies even to so-called evil in the novels, I can see how people might believe this (both in and out of character). Ultimately, the novels and the opinions espoused are from one (fairly limited) viewpoint, and therefore we as players in that sandbox should feel free to view these things as we will.

We humans live with moral degeneracy among us all the time...just because it is in the body of a rotting corpse that drinks blood doesn't mean killing it off is an automatic. Everyone at Magicpockets table needs to play to their characters and if the Spring Knight can't convince everyone to help him take off the vampire's head then the Spring Knight will need to do what he needs to do (with Fate points involved, of course)
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Vairelome on February 26, 2013, 02:19:57 AM
so-called evil

I think this speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Dr.FunLove on February 26, 2013, 03:12:01 AM
@Vairelome
...?
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Hick Jr on February 26, 2013, 03:20:25 AM
I would say that the one court that, upon meeting/making eye contact with you, either-
-Kills you for no reason
-Drinks all your blood, killing you
-Turns you into a fellow undead horror
-destroys your mind and consigning you to a psychic slavery and a slow death

isn't really worth saving. I would have zero moral scruples with the genocide of the Black Court, but there might be ramifications similar to the death of the Red Court, which nobody wants. So you might face opposition on that count. If your players are on the fence, just have some Venator who lost a loved one/family member/childhood friend to the Black Court detail some of their atrocities.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Vairelome on February 26, 2013, 09:44:25 AM
I would have zero moral scruples with the genocide of the Black Court, but there might be ramifications similar to the death of the Red Court, which nobody wants.

Agreed on the first part, but not the second.  The Black Court has already been substantially wiped out; that was the whole point of the Stokerlypse.  It's been made clear in the books that the only BCVs wandering around are the last remnants of a once-powerful supernatural faction.  Now, this may change: while Mavra's ostensible purpose for retrieving Kemmler's last book was defensive (limiting the spread of the knowledge that necromancy could be used against the Black Court, possibly to control BCVs), it's also possible that the book has offensive uses as well (allowing a non-Elder BCV to become an Elder; resurrecting one of the dead Elders; etc.).

The Red Court and the Black Court are similar in that both were wholly evil and properly destroyed.  As of, say, Storm Front, though, the Red Court controlled practically all of Central and South America, while the last of the Black Court controlled no significant territory and were kill-on-sight in much of the world.  Changes caused a substantial power vacuum (still worth it, IMO); there's no evidence that killing the last of the Black Court would have any sort of similar ripple effects.

In short, I don't believe there are any in-character moral, legal, or practical objections to Magicpockets' plan worth taking seriously.  Out-of-character, it's a different story, unfortunately.

If your players are on the fence, just have some Venator who lost a loved one/family member/childhood friend to the Black Court detail some of their atrocities.

Magicpockets isn't the GM, and due to the backstory he gave, I don't think this would be convincing to the players/characters that need persuading.  Also, the GM isn't being reasonable.  In a different situation, this is exactly what should have happened, though, I agree.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: blackstaff67 on February 26, 2013, 12:03:40 PM
Ok, here are some updates on the situation:
-The DM is heavily opposed to letting dicerolls decide the situation, and unless all players agree, combat won't happen.
-The DM, when in doubt, will side with the majority of players. Which means against me.
-The annihilation of the Black Court is seen as "genocide". Don't know what to say about that.
Strange.  I thought rampant use of magick made technology fail, like the railroad your GM is using.  Sounds to me like your GM had plans for his NPC, maybe he wanted you to save him/her/IT so that it owed a debt, I dunno, and he can't wrap his mind around why anyone would want to off the thing.  Only alternative I can come up with is to convince one of the other players to come around to your side.

One wonders if s/he be so ham-fisted if you were running a Knight of the Cross or similar professional monster-slayer, but that's just me.  I call shenanigans on the GM's part.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Lavecki121 on February 26, 2013, 12:37:02 PM
I would just kill it. Call up a whole bunch of summer fire and blast it into the coffin, as the wood burns, so will the vampire and then it will be exposed to sunlight. I feel all GM and players should be able to roll with the punches of a PC who is very brash.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Taran on February 26, 2013, 12:54:07 PM
I would just kill it. Call up a whole bunch of summer fire and blast it into the coffin, as the wood burns, so will the vampire and then it will be exposed to sunlight. I feel all GM and players should be able to roll with the punches of a PC who is very brash.

Agreed.  Then watch as the Fate Points fall from the sky and the whole party scrambles to fill up their pockets.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 26, 2013, 03:10:19 PM
This is a relevant  Woj from 2011 bitten books q and a.
"Are individual BC vamps capable of feeling affection for those they cared about in life and could they hold back from eating them if they really tried? maybe go to the blood bank instead? i know vamps as a whole dont do this but actions of individuals fron the other courts like thomas not killing justine in BR and susan dying for maggie seen to imply its not all black and white.
Jim: Oh, it’s possible a BC vamp could feel something toward those it knew in life, but those feelings wouldn’t really motivate it toward a given behavior. If it’s hungry, it feeds, and if it happens to be eating its own child from life, it might think ‘Ah, I recognize that one. Interesting. This should probably be upsetting me, but it tastes so /good/…’
If the blampire had a rational, cynically self-centered /reason/ to keep someone alive though, it certainly would, and it is entirely possible that some blampires have enough of a sense of enlightened self-interest to preserve a few mortals that have proven useful. Until they don’t."

The problem seems to be you are treating them like the canon does ("evil" monsters), but your game is not. You are dealing with a disconnect of expectations. It would probably help you to talk to your dm about what your character would know about the blamps. you (and most of us) are basing your reaction on the knowledge of them from the novels, but in his version they are seem to be more nuanced (similar to the whamps). Until you address that issue with him you are not going to make any progress.
Clarifying that his version are different might make it easier for you as a player to accept the current predicament you are in. If that is indeed the case then ask him what a character with your lore would know about them. Hopefully there is something in there to make your character want to hesitate.
Receiving  a couple of fate points makes it even more palatable.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Lavecki121 on February 26, 2013, 03:44:08 PM
I dont see the disconnect. The issue is that you are dealing with an elder vamp who has a great mind for self preservation and has developed excess skills. I doubt this vamp has any interest in the werewolf except for instances such as right now where it benefited her to have that kind of ally.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 26, 2013, 04:03:54 PM
The disconnect I was referring to was being told as summer he would naturally fight to stop it. Also that it would be "genocide" if he did allow it.
That is a word with a world of weight implied in its use. It isn't something that I would normally associate with anwalking talking rotting corpse that would happily exsanguinate any children it had before becoming a blamp.

Where in the timeline are you guys compared to the novels?

Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Lavecki121 on February 26, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
I think this is the oppinons of the PC and The players due to some strange reasons that dont really make sense.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Magicpockets on February 26, 2013, 04:58:07 PM
Where in the timeline are you guys compared to the novels?

After Grave Peril, before/at the beginning of Summer Knight. The DM hasn't read the books post that. And Archangelsk hasn't/doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: blackstaff67 on February 26, 2013, 05:06:58 PM
Wait, the Werewolf considers the Rukh to be a good person and is currently romantically involved with her?  As in "present tense?"  Show the player the pic of Mavra as Hamlet from Bianca's party from the Your Story book and ask her if she's okay tapping that.
And then point out that her lover's first instinct towards a typical human is to see them as food.   Ask her if she's okay with that.  Ask her if she's okay with the BCV seeing her as food but for her WW powers.  Point out that in human form she'd be food...but yeah, I think someone's trying to go for WoD angst/romance here for these arguments to have much effect.
Point out to the arms dealer that this thing might see him as competition or even simply as someone that knows too much about her...a thing that's rather resistant to his weapons and can probably hex them at will.  Finally, point out that Humans have Free Will while Monsters have nature, and that this thing's inherent nature is debased with all humanity scoured from its being.
Good luck, friend.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: polkaneverdies on February 26, 2013, 05:12:02 PM
Someone correct me if my memory is off but doesn't that place it as at the beginning if the reds vs council war?

If so the arms dealers concerns are already irrelevant. The reds are already at war. Venatori are a firm ally of the council. them Killing the blamps won't make that any more or less real.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Mrmdubois on February 26, 2013, 05:14:01 PM
Someone correct me if my memory is off but doesn't that place it as at the beginning if the reds vs council war?

If so the arms dealers concerns are already irrelevant. The reds are already at war. Venatori are a firm ally of the council. them Killing the blamps won't make that any more or less real.
  This.

Also, he said the Rukh has better disguise abilities than Mavra.

Has your GM gotten to the point in Summer Knight where Bob talks about how Summer becoming stronger would still be a bad thing?  A rampant period of growth for everything, including diseases which could effectively genocide the entire human race or at least vast swathes of it.  Summer doesn't care about genocide because Summer believes in survival of the fittest just as much as Winter does.  Being more focused on emotions they might regret bad things happening to people or other supernatural creatures, but nature will take its course and they aren't going to bother interfering with that.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Mr. Ghostbuster on February 26, 2013, 08:30:11 PM
1. The Venatori are already allied with the White Council who are at war with the Red Court.
2. The Dealer's infected love interest could join the Fellowship of St. Giles (if she isn't already a member), who are also allied with the Venatori and White Council, which would grant her a certain amount of protection (as well as virtually negating the possibility that the Venatori would target her).
3. I would think an arm's dealer would look forward to the profits to be gained from a war.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: livebait on February 27, 2013, 12:14:01 AM
Your GM doesn't seem to want to kill off the NPC, so reasons why your character wouldn't want to:

-Is Catherine a magic user? Perhaps the werewolf girl lets it slip that she's got some modest magical power, and You've Got a Bad Feeling About This... something that old and that strong is going to have one HELL of a death curse. Perhaps another faction purposely set up the Rukh as a booby trap, and is counting on her death to cripple the Venatori. Maybe not, but your sense is telling you something. I like this solution, because if there's a threat to the Venatori from killing the vampire, saving her makes sense for all 3 of your characters.

-How much does your character know about the frame job? Perhaps Catherine smirks and makes an offhand comment, which makes you realize she may know about who was actually behind it. If that's a strong enough motivator, maybe another option. Having her dangle any tantalizing information that's important enough for your character to take pause at hearing may be a good enough motivation to axe the execution, or at least delay it.

-Your queen compels you to save the Rukh; unbeknownst to you, there's a great deal of political intrigue going on, and while Summer isn't usually on great terms with the BCV, the Rukh dying would really screw with Summer's plans.
Cold Days spoiler:
(click to show/hide)

-Hell breaks loose, the site is under attack, and a traitor in the Venatori (maybe even the one the Werewolf girl hates) has sold them out to an outside faction; in the ensuing struggle to survive, the Rukh escapes. This will only work if your GM is fluid enough to rethink his story a bit.


The other consideration is asking your GM what major plans he has involving the NPC. If you're going to be railroaded and you want to work with him, let him at least tell you what bounds he needs you to fall under.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: fantazero on February 27, 2013, 02:50:53 PM
Dues Ex Machina answer

Have a Third Party come in through a "Way" from the Never Never and steal the BCV
3 Way Fight!

Or do a social conflict.
I wouldn't "kill" any of you PCs, because having a HUGE problem between your PCs is much more interesting than just killing them.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: noclue on February 27, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
If the GM wants to save the NPC can't he just use the concession mechanic. It's what it's for, no?

That way you get to try to kill the vamp, satisfying your character issues and gain a Fate point. The GM concedes and the vamp lives to fight another day.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: Tedronai on February 27, 2013, 04:59:49 PM
Concessions are not unilateral, they must be reasonable given the situation and are subject to negotiation to reach such a point, so it's not actually a given that a concession would offer this NPC the leverage necessary to avoid destruction.
It would seem to me, in fact, that, given the BCV's state, it would (or perhaps should) already have been the subject of a Taken Out result or a Concession, leaving it's fate in the hands of this divided party.
Title: Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
Post by: noclue on February 27, 2013, 06:51:43 PM
Suggests the GM shoulda conceded earlier.