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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bobjob on August 14, 2013, 05:13:49 PM

Title: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 14, 2013, 05:13:49 PM
As I prepare for my next session, I wanted to share the Black Staff I created that will be in use. I built this as a sink for Fate Points, essentially subverting the will of the wielder, which I think plays much more nicely into the corrupting nature of black magic (especially where I think the actual staff comes from based on Cold Days and a WOJ I read somewhere).

THE BLACK STAFF (-3 if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy, or -5 if you do not)
Description: You possess the Black Staff, a powerful magical focus that aids in corrupting the fundamental forces of nature. It will also protect from the backlash of those actions... for a price. Currently both an office and an item of power, the Senior Council has deemed this a necessary but secret evil to protect the world against foes that would use the Laws of Magic against them.
Musts: You must have a high concept that represents either the item or both the Office of the Black Staff and the item itself.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore
Effects:
Karma Indulgence (reskinned All Are Equal Before God). The item known as the Black Staff is a force of natural entropy and is useful for that purpose; whether it's causing or perverting death, breaking minds, transforming to break or destroy, subverting time, or seeking beyond the natural world, it will absorb the consequences of such actions... for a price. When casting a spell that would violate one of the Laws of Magic, the wielder of the Black Staff may spend a fate point to ignore the Lawbreaker stunt for one particular law for the duration of the scene. If a new law is broken in that same scene and the wielder wishes protection from that, then a new fate point must be spent.
All Things Are Made To Broken (Sponsored Magic). This is a power conduit to more easily break the Laws of Magic and can only be used for that purpose. Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits. It also provides +1 to the power or complexity threshold on any spell intended to break a law of magic. It doesn't particularly care for the consequences of said actions and any backlash is flavored as dark tendrils drilling into the arm of the wielder.
It is what it is: A short staff made of gnarled wood. Shadowy power emanates from it.
One time discount: +2
Unbreakable

**Update: It looks like My Dark Sunshine did this exact same design, modeling it on a Sword of the Cross like I did. I found it like three seconds after I hit the submit button. Now I feel sad.

**Update 2: Grr, we even built ours almost exactly alike. The only real difference is the wording and the fact Sunshine's version provides blanket Lawbreaker armor against all Lawbreaker spells in a scene for one fate point instead of one for each law (like mine). You can see his/her well written example here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25799.msg1100226.html#msg1100226)
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: PatchR on August 14, 2013, 11:02:56 PM
It wouldn't corrupt nature/magic... it's Mother Winter's Staff, and therefore wholly party to nature.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: vultur on August 15, 2013, 03:28:03 AM
Here's what I'd do -

Blackstaff [-?]
It Is What It Is. It's a gnarled wooden staff that seems somehow semi-living. Weapon:1, if you hit someone with it.
Indestructible.
Black Magic Eater. Whenever you would otherwise be forced to take a Lawbreaker stunt while holding the Blackstaff, you instead suffer a (Weapon:0) mental attack at Legendary.
No Item of Power Discount [+0]. The Blackstaff can be summoned to the hand of its bearer instantaneously, regardless of distance or even the barrier between the Nevernever and the mortal world.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 15, 2013, 05:31:46 AM
Huh. I should probably add the Blackstaff to the IoP list.

Not sure which version I should add, though. All of them, maybe?

Might be tricky to get permission from some of those guys in the other thread, since they might not still be around.

Anyway...

Quote from: vultur on August 15, 2013, 03:28:03 AM
Here's what I'd do -

Blackstaff [-?]
It Is What It Is. It's a gnarled wooden staff that seems somehow semi-living. Weapon:1, if you hit someone with it.
Indestructible.
Black Magic Eater. Whenever you would otherwise be forced to take a Lawbreaker stunt while holding the Blackstaff, you instead suffer a (Weapon:0) mental attack at Legendary.
No Item of Power Discount [+0]. The Blackstaff can be summoned to the hand of its bearer instantaneously, regardless of distance or even the barrier between the Nevernever and the mortal world.

I'd call that a -0 item, personally.

Quote from: bobjob on August 14, 2013, 05:13:49 PM
THE BLACK STAFF (-3 if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy, or -5 if you do not)
Description: You possess the Black Staff, a powerful magical focus that aids in corrupting the fundamental forces of nature. It will also protect from the backlash of those actions... for a price. Currently both an office and an item of power, the Senior Council has deemed this a necessary but secret evil to protect the world against foes that would use the Laws of Magic against them.
Musts: You must have a high concept that represents either the item or both the Office of the Black Staff and the item itself.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore
Effects:
Karma Indulgence (reskinned All Are Equal Before God). The item known as the Black Staff is a force of natural entropy and is useful for that purpose; whether it's causing or perverting death, breaking minds, transforming to break or destroy, subverting time, or seeking beyond the natural world, it will absorb the consequences of such actions... for a price. When casting a spell that would violate one of the Laws of Magic, the wielder of the Black Staff may spend a fate point to ignore the Lawbreaker stunt for one particular law for the duration of the scene. If a new law is broken in that same scene and the wielder wishes protection from that, then a new fate point must be spent.
All Things Are Made To Broken (Sponsored Magic). This is a power conduit to more easily break the Laws of Magic and can only be used for that purpose. Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits. It also provides +1 to the power or complexity threshold on any spell intended to break a law of magic. It doesn't particularly care for the consequences of said actions and any backlash is flavored as dark tendrils drilling into the arm of the wielder.
It is what it is: A short staff made of gnarled wood. Shadowy power emanates from it.
One time discount: +2
Unbreakable

Hm. I'm kind of iffy on the idea of spending Refresh to avoid the Laws. Non-humans get that bonus for free.

Not sure how this is based on the Swords...it doesn't seem that similar.

I like the idea of using a Sponsored Magic, but I think you should explain how the Blackstaff's Sponsored Magic works a bit more. What do its spells look like? What evothaum does it allow?
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Hick Jr on August 15, 2013, 06:45:57 AM
*Wild SPONSORED MAGIC PRO appears!*

It should probably allow for any Evothaum that breaks the Laws. Evocations and Thaumaturgy should probably do the same thing. The extra benefit should let you ignore the Lawbreaker stunts for the cost of a mild consequence or a FP.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: vultur on August 17, 2013, 01:44:14 AM
I made my version the way it is because the "does the Blackstaff have any powers relating to the dead" WoJ sort of implies it doesn't have any powers beyond anti-black-magic-corruption.

I've suggested the Sponsored Magic solution in the past, I think, but that was before I knew about that WoJ (which, admittedly, isn't a 100% straight answer, so... still some leeway.)

 But if it did give you Sponsored Magic it would probably be (CD Spoiler)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: vultur on August 17, 2013, 06:13:12 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 15, 2013, 05:31:46 AM


I'd call that a -0 item, personally.

Hm. I'm kind of iffy on the idea of spending Refresh to avoid the Laws. Non-humans get that bonus for free.

I'm not sure this really applies to anything PCable (by default assumptions). White Courts and Red Court Infected, etc. are stated to not get lawbreaker for mental control by their innate abilities, but that's not spellcasting.

Everything that's in "Types and Templates" has a human soul, so it's at least not obvious to me that any of them would be immune to lawbreaker if they had spellcasting. (Sponsored Magic lawbreaker is a whole other argument ... but I'd certainly say a whampire or  nixie changeling who can get away with Incite Emotion would still incur lawbreaker if they also had Thaumaturgy and used that for mind control.)
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Troy on August 17, 2013, 01:56:55 PM
Quote from: vultur on August 17, 2013, 06:13:12 AM
I'm not sure this really applies to anything PCable (by default assumptions). White Courts and Red Court Infected, etc. are stated to not get lawbreaker for mental control by their innate abilities, but that's not spellcasting.

Everything that's in "Types and Templates" has a human soul, so it's at least not obvious to me that any of them would be immune to lawbreaker if they had spellcasting. (Sponsored Magic lawbreaker is a whole other argument ... but I'd certainly say a whampire or  nixie changeling who can get away with Incite Emotion would still incur lawbreaker if they also had Thaumaturgy and used that for mind control.)

That's an interesting take on things. Do you have any posts in any of the Laws threads above that help to flesh out your point of view on this? I'd be interested in learning more.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 17, 2013, 07:14:15 PM
Quote from: vultur on August 17, 2013, 06:13:12 AM
I'm not sure this really applies to anything PCable (by default assumptions). White Courts and Red Court Infected, etc. are stated to not get lawbreaker for mental control by their innate abilities, but that's not spellcasting.

True.

But NPCs are built along the same rules as PCs, and they don't spend Refresh on avoiding Lawbreaker.

And mechanically, things work better if you don't have to spend Refresh to break the Laws.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: vultur on August 19, 2013, 01:49:50 AM
Quote from: Troy on August 17, 2013, 01:56:55 PM
That's an interesting take on things. Do you have any posts in any of the Laws threads above that help to flesh out your point of view on this? I'd be interested in learning more.

No, it just occurred to me as I read this thread.

But I certainly could expand on it in the Law Talk thread if you wanted...

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 17, 2013, 07:14:15 PM
True.

But NPCs are built along the same rules as PCs, and they don't spend Refresh on avoiding Lawbreaker.

Well, sure, but NPCs don't care whether they're positive or negative refresh, so it really is a wash for NPCs - if they don't get Lawbreaker, they don't get its benefits either.

PCs, not so much, since they can't go negative.

Quote
And mechanically, things work better if you don't have to spend Refresh to break the Laws.
Can you expand on that?
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 19, 2013, 06:14:53 AM
Having to spend Refresh on Lawbreaker if you break a Law is a problem for a few reasons. In no particular order...

-It removes the possibility of a Lawbreaking storyline for most spellcasters, since most casters only have 1 Refresh. If they break a Law, you can't play them any more.

-It handicaps people who play Harry-like characters. Harry's First Lawbreaker is a total waste of Refresh, and it makes him weaker than a Submerged character is supposed to be.

-It makes the Laws too scary. We see a lot of debates about what the Laws are here in the RPG section of the forum. That used to puzzle me, since the Laws aren't actually an RPG thing. But since having your Refresh taken away is so scary, the Lawbreaker rules make people treat the Laws quasi-religiously.

-It encourages people to use the Laws as a club with which to punish "unbalanced" actions. This is a bad idea and the laws don't work well for that.

A non-free Power that lets you dodge the Laws is an outgrowth of the mandatory-Power-purchase rule, and that's bad.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 19, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
Hmm, ok. If actual shadowy staff that Ebenezzar used in Changes was
(click to show/hide)
then I need to start thinking of something mechanically that would work and try to make it different than the standard sponsored magic for that court based more along the themes of the original owner. It's possible the staff itself doesn't provide any protection from the Laws.

Here's a thought though and it's possible it's covered in existing Laws threads so I'd have to look it over, but would spells cast using Sponsored Magic invoke some kind of lawbreaker? I would probably say Yes, although the magic is coming from another source.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 19, 2013, 09:28:34 PM
Quote from: bobjob on August 19, 2013, 07:47:57 PM
Here's a thought though and it's possible it's covered in existing Laws threads so I'd have to look it over, but would spells cast using Sponsored Magic invoke some kind of lawbreaker?

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on February 02, 2013, 06:45:15 AM
3. Is Sponsored Magic Subject To The Laws?

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18296.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18296.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19301.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19301.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19574.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19574.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19561.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19561.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18574.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18574.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16270.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16270.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35871.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35871.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36015.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36015.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29919.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29919.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26767.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26767.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23885.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23885.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30762.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30762.0.html)
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?591109-Dresden-Files-RPG-Questions-about-Sponsored-Magic (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?591109-Dresden-Files-RPG-Questions-about-Sponsored-Magic)
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/15442/are-changelings-with-sponsored-magic-subject-to-the-laws-of-magic (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/15442/are-changelings-with-sponsored-magic-subject-to-the-laws-of-magic)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24028.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24028.0.html)
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 19, 2013, 11:41:36 PM
Thank you Sancta. You seem to be able to pull those out of thin air at the drop of a hat.

I'm going to change around my initial concept. No actual physical Black Staff for the job title. The Black Staff suffers just as everybody else. But with my House Ruled interpretation of Sponsored Magic (seen below), he can pull of one useful trick for his job using this item.

Since the laws and how they correlate with Sponsored Magic seem a little ambiguous at best and open to lots of interpretation (well, you could either take one side or the other it seems), I'm going to opt to House rule this and be done with it. If you use the Sponsored Magic to buff your own spell using your own foci and inherent bonuses from taking evocation or thaumaturgy or refinements, then you incur the Law. If you cast just using the Sponsored Magic and it is thematically inline with the sponsor's goals, you do not incur the Law. This makes it potentially less powerful since a mortal practitioner does not get all of the bonuses from evocation or thaumaturgy foci or inherent power or control bonuses, although I do guess they could create foci specifically to channel the sponsored magic easier. I'll burn that bridge if it ever comes up in my game.

I do realize this may seem broken to some, but I'm not really up for getting into a laws debate. Those degrade too quickly into people's interpretations. This is just my house rule for it.

Atropos' Cane (-3 if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy, or -5 if you do not)
Description: You possess Atropos' Cane, a powerful magical artifact of a goddess of death.
Musts: You must have a concept that represents the item.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore
Effects:
The Power of Death. Sponsored Magic from the DFRPG Resource Wiki (here: http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Sponsored+Magics). The power of death at your command.
Sacrificial Lamb. You may take either Mental or Physical stress when using the power of the cane. Physical stress and consequences are always flavored as black shadowy tendrils running into your arm, sapping your vitality. Any physical or mental stress incurred by using this item always satisfies the catch of any toughness or recovery powers.
It is what it is: A short staff made of gnarled wood. Shadowy power emanates from it. Weapon:1 wielded like a club (it's not quite big enough for Weapon:2.)
No Item of Power Discount. +0. Atropos' Cane can be summoned to the hand of its bearer instantaneously, regardless of distance or even the barrier between the NeverNever and the mortal world.
Unbreakable
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: vultur on August 20, 2013, 01:33:15 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 19, 2013, 06:14:53 AM
Having to spend Refresh on Lawbreaker if you break a Law is a problem for a few reasons. In no particular order...

-It removes the possibility of a Lawbreaking storyline for most spellcasters, since most casters only have 1 Refresh. If they break a Law, you can't play them any more.

-It handicaps people who play Harry-like characters. Harry's First Lawbreaker is a total waste of Refresh, and it makes him weaker than a Submerged character is supposed to be.

Good points....

Quote
-It makes the Laws too scary. We see a lot of debates about what the Laws are here in the RPG section of the forum. That used to puzzle me, since the Laws aren't actually an RPG thing. But since having your Refresh taken away is so scary, the Lawbreaker rules make people treat the Laws quasi-religiously.

...but I think the Laws really are supposed to be that scary.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 20, 2013, 05:02:49 AM
Quote from: bobjob on August 19, 2013, 11:41:36 PM
Thank you Sancta. You seem to be able to pull those out of thin air at the drop of a hat.

You're very welcome.

The trick is usually to have a good memory and a knack for searching the web, but in this case the links were pre-prepared. That's what the Law Talk thread is for, after all.

The staff looks pretty good and I'll add it to the various lists if you don't object.

I could see Sacrificial Lamb being abusable, since it lets you draw on two stress tracks in the same scene, but I'd be willing to allow it if I was GMing. At least on a trial basis.

Quote from: vultur on August 20, 2013, 01:33:15 AM
Good points....

...but I think the Laws really are supposed to be that scary.

I don't know what the writers intended, but I think there's a problem if people are so afraid of Lawbreaker that they won't even entertain the possibility that they just broke a Law.

Since Lawbreaking is effectively instant death for many characters, people will tie themselves into knots to justify not taking it. And that leads to arguments of the non-fun kind.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Hick Jr on August 20, 2013, 05:29:16 AM
You know, i'd be willing to writeup a Blackstaff sponsored magic. An interesting idea for a BBEG is a former Blackstaff who retained the staff's power and is now training a group of wizardly assassins called The Blackstaffs. And they become their own power under the Unseelie Accords, and try to steal the original Blackstaff from the White Council. Actually, that's not a terrible character concept for a wizard- an escaped apprentice of that Order, who wields this magic that gives him such a leg up on other wizards.

anyway, here's the Sponsored Magic

BLACKSTAFF MAGIC
Description:You wield the fell power of the Blackstaff, the black ops man of the White Council.
Sponsor:The Blackstaff itself.
Agenda:To break the Laws of Magic- namely to kill, to transform, to invade the thoughts of others, to enthrall, to use necromancy, to swim against the flow of time, and to look Outside the Outer Gates.
Evocation: Any evocation that breaks one of the Seven Laws.
Thaumaturgy:Any ritual that breaks one of the Seven Laws.
Evothaum:Any ritual that breaks one of the Laws can be used at evocation's speed and methods.
Extra Benefits:If you possess Blackstaff Magic, you cannot gain a Lawbreaker power. Instead, you can spend a Fate Point and gain a +2 bonus to control and complexity/power to spells that break a specific Law for that scene.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 20, 2013, 06:07:50 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 20, 2013, 05:02:49 AM
The staff looks pretty good and I'll add it to the various lists if you don't object.

I could see Sacrificial Lamb being abusable, since it lets you draw on two stress tracks in the same scene, but I'd be willing to allow it if I was GMing. At least on a trial basis.

Thank you :) By all means, go ahead.

As for Sacrificial Lamb, I just modeled the power after the Varied Techniques ability of Supernatural Martial Arts from the Resource Wiki, which one of my players uses. It is likewise a -1 Refresh add on to the existing power. I don't necessarily see it as abuse because in a prolonged conflict in which you cannot use any boosts or foci (assuming you are trying to avoid taking a Lawbreaker by using just the Sponsored Magic house rule I made) then you'll really end up limiting your survivability options as you continuously fill up not only your physical but mental track (assuming that other things are not trying to hurt you as well and you don't flub a roll and take backlash). Plus since I am using this as the shadow staff that Ebenezzar used in Changes, the physical stress seems to work with the black tendrils going into his arm doing who knows what to him. Until that is revealed officially, I kind of like this as an idea.

Quote from: Hick Jr on August 20, 2013, 05:29:16 AM
You know, i'd be willing to writeup a Blackstaff sponsored magic. An interesting idea for a BBEG is a former Blackstaff who retained the staff's power and is now training a group of wizardly assassins called The Blackstaffs. And they become their own power under the Unseelie Accords, and try to steal the original Blackstaff from the White Council. Actually, that's not a terrible character concept for a wizard- an escaped apprentice of that Order, who wields this magic that gives him such a leg up on other wizards.

I had a similar idea for a game of all wizards called The Black Staff. Set in an earlier time (or even a much later time) in which the office of the Black Staff has to take on additional help, essentially becoming the wizard version of MI6 with a license to kill (all for the greater good).
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Locnil on August 20, 2013, 04:53:58 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 19, 2013, 06:14:53 AM
Having to spend Refresh on Lawbreaker if you break a Law is a problem for a few reasons. In no particular order...

-It removes the possibility of a Lawbreaking storyline for most spellcasters, since most casters only have 1 Refresh. If they break a Law, you can't play them any more.

-It handicaps people who play Harry-like characters. Harry's First Lawbreaker is a total waste of Refresh, and it makes him weaker than a Submerged character is supposed to be.

-It makes the Laws too scary. We see a lot of debates about what the Laws are here in the RPG section of the forum. That used to puzzle me, since the Laws aren't actually an RPG thing. But since having your Refresh taken away is so scary, the Lawbreaker rules make people treat the Laws quasi-religiously.

-It encourages people to use the Laws as a club with which to punish "unbalanced" actions. This is a bad idea and the laws don't work well for that.

A non-free Power that lets you dodge the Laws is an outgrowth of the mandatory-Power-purchase rule, and that's bad.

The first two point I agree with. But like vultur, I think the third point is working as intended (or at least a beneficial side effect of its design), though, yeah, it can be frustrating. And I'd like you to clarify your fourth point, if you don't mind.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: vultur on August 21, 2013, 01:55:46 AM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on August 20, 2013, 05:02:49 AM
I don't know what the writers intended, but I think there's a problem if people are so afraid of Lawbreaker that they won't even entertain the possibility that they just broke a Law.

Since Lawbreaking is effectively instant death for many characters, people will tie themselves into knots to justify not taking it. And that leads to arguments of the non-fun kind.

I do see your point.

What I meant was that in setting, it seems like most spellcasters (who aren't already evil) are pretty terrified of Lawbreaking. It usually makes you a horrible monster, and while redemption is possible, it seems to be pretty rare (Harry is pretty exceptional in a lot of ways, and Molly kept backsliding or at least dancing on the very edge
(click to show/hide)
so it's not clear to me she ever really was successfully 'redeemed') and only at the very beginning - some people just seem to become monsters period.

Although it doesn't really make sense to me that a lot of the stuff she did, like checking to see if Luccio was mentally influenced, really should be evil or corrupting at all - but that's another argument...)
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 21, 2013, 04:50:23 AM
I certainly see the point too.

You really only have two kinds of lawbreakers. Those who break the laws but do not know what the laws are at first (Harry, Molly, etc). And those who purposely break the laws for greater power and probably knew what they were doing when they did it (Kemmler, Corpsetaker, etc). Both get the mechanical benefit via RAW with the Lawbreaker stunt (and the aspect change) that makes it easier for them to break that law again. What most people are worried and as Sancta mentioned, will tie themselves into knots to justify not taking is the mechanical stuff; the loss of their refresh (potentially transforming them into NPCs by RAW) and the choppy choppy killy killy of the Wardens after what is essentially a mock trial.

Nobody wants to invest in a character that is taken away from them because they do what every D&D Wizard has ever done. Nobody really wants to be chased by the uncaring wizards who would rather chop off their heads instead of rehabilitate them. There is no Azkaban in Dresden. There is only finding out what is behind Uriel's door number 2.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 21, 2013, 05:14:48 AM
Quote from: bobjob on August 20, 2013, 06:07:50 AM
As for Sacrificial Lamb, I just modeled the power after the Varied Techniques ability of Supernatural Martial Arts from the Resource Wiki, which one of my players uses. It is likewise a -1 Refresh add on to the existing power...

Yeah, it's probably fine. But I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to spellcasting-related Powers.

Quote from: Locnil on August 20, 2013, 04:53:58 PM
...I'd like you to clarify your fourth point, if you don't mind.

Often when there's a spell-related balance issue, like mental evocation attacks, people suggest using Lawbreaker to solve the problem. Basically, the idea is to threaten people into avoiding the unbalanced spell type.

It never really works. Partly because the laws only matter against humans, partly because you often have to invoke torturous justifications to make the spell type universally law-breaker-y, and partly because if the spell is a balance problem it won't stop being one when somebody spends Refresh on a bonus to performing it better. But mostly because threatening your players is a really poor way to deal with a rules problem.

Quote from: vultur on August 21, 2013, 01:55:46 AM
I do see your point.

What I meant was that in setting, it seems like most spellcasters (who aren't already evil) are pretty terrified of Lawbreaking.

Scaring the characters is fine by me. The problem is that Lawbreaker scares the players.

Really, the Refresh loss means little to the characters. They don't even know what Refresh is. The characters are scared of having their Aspects changed until they become evil monsters, and of getting killed by the Wardens.

If you remove the Refresh loss then you can keep the characters scared without scaring the players and driving them to silly behaviour.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 21, 2013, 05:47:12 AM
Hmm, so how would you rework Lawbreaker to take away that refresh loss? Take away the refresh and the mechanical benefit and you gain an extra Aspect or even a change to a magically related aspect?
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: Sanctaphrax on August 21, 2013, 05:53:10 AM
I just make the Power non-mandatory. You can still buy it if you want, though. And you do have to change your Aspects if you break the Laws.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 21, 2013, 03:26:55 PM
Hmm... for those that are worried about the story elements behind breaking the laws (y'know, the execution)... if a Warden spoke to them would they know necessarily about any crime? I would go with No. There does seem to be some way to tell (a soul gaze, maybe sussing out an aspect if you are suspicious enough, and getting close to one of Ancient Mai's ward hounds), but I wouldn't think that unless for some very odd reason they have a strange sense that lets them sniff out that dark magic that they would even automatically know something had happened.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: bobjob on August 21, 2013, 05:10:49 PM
Used the Atropos' Cane last night in my game, used by a wizard character they know who is not part of the White Council. The two steady characters in the game are physical power houses (at 16 refresh after a little over 2 years of playing fairly steadily) who do not bat an eye at a Loup Garou type analog monster (because they can at least hold it off physically, if not harm it). One wizard shows up at the same refresh as them and they go running for the hills. It's actually kind of satisfying.
Title: Re: The Black Staff
Post by: PirateJack on August 22, 2013, 03:19:08 PM
Quote from: bobjob on August 21, 2013, 03:26:55 PM
Hmm... for those that are worried about the story elements behind breaking the laws (y'know, the execution)... if a Warden spoke to them would they know necessarily about any crime? I would go with No. There does seem to be some way to tell (a soul gaze, maybe sussing out an aspect if you are suspicious enough, and getting close to one of Ancient Mai's ward hounds), but I wouldn't think that unless for some very odd reason they have a strange sense that lets them sniff out that dark magic that they would even automatically know something had happened.

From what I remember there are a few ways to spot the stain of Black Magic.