ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Foxed on January 24, 2015, 06:40:36 PM
-
I spent this last week rereading Proven Guilty, and I think I have most of the answer.
For the record, I think we must accept Harry's final conclusions at the end of the novel, as it would be a very unusual casefile if Harry didn't solve it by the end. So, the main plot is as follows:
- Molly comes into her magic.
- Sandra Marling primes Molly to use fear magic to cure Nelson and Rose of their addiction.
- In doing so, Molly and her victims become fear anchors for a Fetch sending spell.
- Darby Crane is invited to Splattercon!!! as a guest and a patsy.
- The main villain sends the fetches from the Nevernever to the anchors.
- When Harry attempts to send the fetches back to the summoner, they get sent back to the fear anchor instead, because they were sent, not summoned.
- The Greater Fetches bring Molly to Arctis Tor for reasons.
- Eldest Fetch goes to leave an incriminating corpse, Darby, as the summoner.
- Harry accidentally rescues Darby from being the patsy.
- Harry et al. rescue Molly from Arctis Tor.
There are still questions. And, upon rereading, I find the "Sandra=Maeve=main villain" theory to be surprisingly plausible. At the very least, Sandra is working towards the same purposes as Maeve. It is Sandra who gives Molly the idea to use fear magic. As the convention chair, she is well-positioned to invite Darby Crane to SplatterCon!!! I find Sandra working for Maeve to be more plausible, given how deep her cover is (runs a shelter and a convention, has been helping Molly and friends for months).
Maeve is the main villain of Proven Guilty. We can narrow the Fetch Sender down to two individuals, Mab or Maeve. (One can assume that Mother Winter remains too uninvolved to bother being the sender.)
"There are things strong enough to send them through from the [Nevernever]? I didn't think that ever happened anymore. Hence the popularity of working through mortal summoners."
"Oh, it's doable," Bob assured me. "It just takes a hell of a lot more juice to open the way to the mortal world from the other side."
I frowned. "How much power are we talking?"
"Big," Bob assured me. "Like the Erlking, or an archangel, or one of the old gods."
I got a shivery feeling in my stomach. "A Faerie Queen?"
"Oh, sure. I guess so." He frowned. "You think this is Faerie work?"
"Something is definitely screwy in elfland," I said.
"Specifically, [fetches are] creatures of deepest, darkest Winter.
We know that Lily's plan in the climax of the novel was for Harry to use Summer fire to draw Winter forces from the border so that Summer could assist the White Council in their war against the Red Court. We know that Lily and Maeve are working together, as Maeve traps the Winter forces in a time dilation spell. We also know that Maeve has been subverted by Nemesis, because she is by this point advancing her lie that Mab has gone insane.
It is pretty clear that Nemesis has Maeve pulling the strings here. Pulling back Winter's forces from the Gates advances Nemesis's goals. Maeve is clearly playing Lily and Harry here. I can only therefore conclude that she is playing Eldest Fetch, as well. That was the goal, to weaken the Gates' defenses.
I stuck my left hand out to one side of me and said, "Look over here." Then I mimed a short jab with my right fist.
"It's a rope-a-dope," Murphy said, her eyes narrowing. "A distraction. But from what?"
This theory, that Maeve is pulling the strings, and that Sandra Marling, Lily, and Eldest Fetch are all her cats-paws, explains much of the plot.* It in fact leaves us with three main mysteries.
1. Who hit Harry on his way home from the warlock execution, and why didn't his attacker want to kill him?
2. Who fixed Little Chicago?
3. Why Molly?
-----
WHO HIT HARRY?
First of all, we can discount Ace. I mean, maybe he's just an amateur, but it's also possible the accident was just a delaying tactic.
"You sure it was deliberate?"
"Yeah, but whoever it was, he wasn't a pro."
"Why do you say that?"
"If he had been, he'd have spun me easy. No idea he was there until he'd hit me. Could have bumped me into a spin before I could have straightened out. Flipped my car a few times. Killed me pretty good."
This novel discusses time travel an awful lot. In fact, I'm pretty sure it discusses time travel more than Cold Days, where the plot clearly relied on the temporal shenanigans it mentioned (the Demonreach explosion blasting backwards in time). And then, there's no explicit time travel in the climax.
There's implicit time travel with the note that Rashid sends Harry to kick off the plot. Except the plot kicks off just fine when Molly calls him. So why send Harry the note? Bob explains this best:
"OK," I said. "So what's the point in sending the message at all, if it can't change anything?"
"Oh, it can," Bob said. "If it's done subtly enough, indirectly enough, you can get all kinds of things changed. Like, for example, he tells you that your car is going to be stolen. So you move it to a parking garage, where instead of getting stolen by the junkie who was going to shoot you and take the car on the street, you get jacked by a professional who takes the car without hurting you-- because by slightly altering the fate of the car, he indirectly alters yours."
Rashid, by the note, is priming Harry to look for black magic. Without that priming, Molly would have died. (Harry admits he didn't even notice the tampering with Rose, and almost didn't notice Nelson's. Without being told to look for black magic, would Harry have ever seen it?) Rashid also interferes at the trial, stalling until the cavalry arrives.
Rashid saved Molly's life by sending Harry a note. A future without Lady Molly must be bleak for the Reality Defense Force, indeed.
There's another time traveler in the tale, and I suspect he's working with Thomas. It seems suspicious that Thomas is tailing Harry on this one adventure. But there's something I noticed once Thomas joins the plot: he does his best to remain uninvolved.
I glanced at Thomas, who was facing away, a little apart from the rest of us, staying out of the decision-making process.
There are other instances where Thomas basically wallflowers. He's very careful not to disrupt the natural flow of the case as much as he can help it. I think, like Rashid, Thomas has future information.**
Hitting Harry keeps him out of the apartment. I posit that Future Harry is at the periphery in Proven Guilty, and whenever Harry is out of the apartment, Future Harry is using it as his base of operations. Future Harry has Thomas as a knowing accomplice.***
[ALTERNATIVELY: Listen. Harry Dresden is unstuck in time. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43840.msg2116589.html#msg2116589)]
-----
LITTLE CHICAGO
Given all of the above, Future Harry and possibly his spirit daughter fixed Little Chicago. There is actually plenty of time in which to do so, as Thomas moves out right before Harry stuffs Bob into his bag for half the book. This covers the night Darby attacks Harry, Rawlins, and Mouse and the fetches kidnap Molly. It's a bit Azkaban as Future Harry knows he can do it because it has already been done.
-----
WHY MOLLY?
This is difficult to guess, and can seemingly only be explained by assuming Maeve knows more than she should. Either Maeve knows that Molly is Harry's best friend's daughter and a mortal practitioner coming into her talent, or it is an amazing coincidence that her plan hinges on. We know Arctis Tor was attacked by a rogue Denarian. We suspect this rogue Denarian was a Nemesis agent with a Coin. It's plausible to posit that Maeve and Nemesis sent another agent, the rogue Denarian, to clear out Arctis Tor, leaving the Wellspring unguarded why Mab was curing the Leanansidhe. And through Lea and the Denarian, it's possible Nemesis knows about Michael. But what about his family?
Gregor. Molly was targeted as Charity's daughter, and not as Michael's. We know she has Fae in her ancestry, and that this is likely the source of her and her daughter's talents. I posit that Charity is Aurora's descendant. Future Harry, by the way, isn't the only player operating on the periphery. Someone else is in town.
The sun had risen on our way there, though heavy cloud cover and grumbling thunder promised unusually bad weather for so early in the day. That shouldn't have surprised me either. When the Queens of Faerie were moving around backstage, the weather quite often seemed to reflect their presence.
We see this again in Small Favor and Ghost Story, where particularly frigid weather means that Mab is in the area. So, let's check out the opening to Proven Guilty's second chapter:
I turned my back on them and walked out of the warehouse into Chicago's best impression of Miami. July in the Midwest is rarely less than sultry, but this year had been especially intense when it came to summer heat, and it had rained frequently.
What the hell is Titania doing in Chicago? Combining this with Mab's assertion that Molly would be a better fit for Summer and the symmetry of a Winter scion becoming the Summer Lady while a Summer scion becomes the Winter Lady, and it's not unreasonable to conclude that Molly's Fae ancestry stretches to Titania.
But that doesn't answer what Titania's goal is. Fix and Lily aren't working towards it. They're working towards Maeve's goals. It would be a stretch for Titania to be infected with Nemesis, wouldn't it?
I suspect that Titania was trying to groom Molly to be Lily's successor, subtly, in the background. Maybe by nudging the right books into Molly's hands. I suspect that Winter's Queens knew this and were keeping tabs on Molly for that reason. And when the pump was primed, Maeve chose Molly to use as a fear anchor.
This is the wildest-assed guess, but I think it holds up.
=====
* Note that Eldest Fetch need not be infected with Nemesis. The two main symptoms pointed out by fans, his magic immunity and his more-than-a-simple-glamour shapeshifting are both explained away within the text.
I should have kept in mind how easily the Scarecrow had shed my magic the night before. The lesser fetch must have had some measure of the same talent, because it changed the tone of its howl in the middle of its leap, impacted my shield, and oozed through it as though the solid barrier was a thick sludge.
This thing was no fetch, no changer of form and image and illusion. There was no shadowy mask over an amorphous form, no glamour altering its appearance, which my salve had enabled me to see through. This thing was a whole, independent creature. Unless maybe it was a fetch so old and strong that it could transform itself into the Scarecrow in truth and not simply in seeming.
** Unless that's how Thomas always is and I've never noticed.
*** It's worth noting that I suspect Thomas is lying about Glau being a djinn scion. My only evidence is that Glau is a dead ringer for the Innsmouth look. I think Thomas was told to not draw Harry's attention to the Fomor because timey-wimey-wibble-wobble.
-
We know that Lily and Maeve are working together,
We don't know if Lily and Maeve are working together at the time of PG.
-
Oh, did I not drop the textual evidence for that?
“That is one way to describe it,” Lily said quietly. “I would not, myself, interpret it that way. I had no part in bringing the fetches here— but their presence and their capture of Lady Charity’s daughter presented us with an opportunity to temporarily neutralize the presence of Mab’s forces upon our borders.”
“We,” I murmured. “Maeve is working with you. That was why she showed up at McAnally’s so quickly.”
“Even so,” Lily said, bowing her head at me in a nod of what looked like respect.
-
TT!Harry in PG also fits with the idea that Rashid was only the messenger for the note about Molly. Harry would have already known exactly where the black magic was coming from, but he would have to be very indirect to do anything about it. It also fits well with the car that hit him was wizard-friendly aged.
We don't know if Lily and Maeve are working together at the time of PG.
Wasn't that established by how quickly Maeve got to the meeting at Mac's?
-
I have one problem right there at the start of you argument.
The idea that this was in some way a pot to weaken the gate. As was pointed out the last time this idea came up, this did not, nor ever was going to affect the situation at the gates, (it would need something that Mab and all her main army put together couldn't deal with and which threatened the fundamental power of winter to do that, this never came close to that). The only people affected negatively by this where Harry and co and the red court. The latter of whom are working with outsiders and so are probably at least partial allies of Nemesis. Whatever Maeve's comments on her Mother at the time her plot actively worked against Nemesis at this point. She might have been infected, but she wasn't working for nemesis at that point.
-
I have one problem right there at the start of you argument.
The idea that this was in some way a pot to weaken the gate. As was pointed out the last time this idea came up, this did not, nor ever was going to affect the situation at the gates, (it would need something that Mab and all her main army put together couldn't deal with and which threatened the fundamental power of winter to do that, this never came close to that). The only people affected negatively by this where Harry and co and the red court. The latter of whom are working with outsiders and so are probably at least partial allies of Nemesis. Whatever Maeve's comments on her Mother at the time her plot actively worked against Nemesis at this point. She might have been infected, but she wasn't working for nemesis at that point.
I think the speculation is that either Maeve or Nemesis thought that by attacking Arctis Tor, and the Winter Wellspring specifically, Harry might draw ALL OF WINTER home to defend the castle. Since the guards at the gates are Winter, maybe they were hoping it would draw some troops away, even temporarily, which might aide an increased assault at the gates.
But that wouldn't be the only benefit. The entire thing also was a play at the long game. It established in Lily's head that Maeve was trustworthy and different than she'd thought. It set up the entire plot of Cold Days by establishing that they could work together for a common good, which was allowing Summer to attack the Ramps while Winter ran back home.
-
Whatever Maeve's comments on her Mother at the time her plot actively worked against Nemesis at this point. She might have been infected, but she wasn't working for nemesis at that point.
Maeve uses the same lie she will use in Cold Days: that her mother is insane/infected. Maeve is definitely infected by Proven Guilty.
-
Where did i say she wasn't?
-
I was going to post this in a new thread, but many of the points covered in the OP are covered by what I have to say, so here goes.
Let’s look at some facts, assumptions and odd details that make what happened during Proven Guilty difficult to unravel.
Harry assumed that Darby Crane/Madrigal Raith was set up to be the fall guy for the phage attacks that took place at Splattercon!!! That may be true or more accurately, Darby was set up to be a stop gap fall guy, someone Harry’s would zero in on and by the time he realized his mistake it would be too late to stop what was actually taking place.
Let’s assume that Harry is more or less correct, that one of the two above assumptions above is correct. Madrigal told Harry his appearance at the Con had been scheduled about a year in advance. This means the phage/fetch attacks were likely planned that far in advance as well.
Harry made another assumption we need to examine. He guessed the reason the Scarecrow/Eldest fetch took out Crane’s assistant; the jann Lucius Glau, was because Glau was in on the set up and could have told Harry who bribed or threatened him to accept an invitation for Darby Crane to appear at a new horror movie convention which would be held the following year in Chicago. So Eldest Fetch was protecting the identity perpetrator of the fetch attacks.
This leads us to the actions and motivations of Eldest Fetch. Was he just the oldest and strongest of the fetches, or was he Nemfected? If he wasn’t Nemfected then he was following Mab’s orders and Mab more or less sacrificed him, probably to test Harry, to see if he was really up to being her next Winter Knight. However we have this sentence in PG which seems to contradict this idea. “It was a fetch, I was sure of it, a creature who had been given talent or power enough to exceed its former status, to become the embodiment of the icon of fear mortals called the Scarecrow.” Jim uses language similar to this in White Night, when Lash tells Harry that Vitto Malvora had been “given power” because he has been possessed by an Outsider. We're not certain if that is the same as being Nemfected, but it sure sounds like it to me.
If the Scarecrow/Eldest Fetch was Nemfected, why would it have followed Mab’s orders? Wouldn’t it have wanted to defeat Mab’s designs instead? Could it have been working with Maeve, who we know was Nemfected and was actively working to gain Lily’s trust with the long-term goal of destroying both the Summer and Winter Courts?
Let’s look at another odd fact that needs to be explained. Someone threw a ward in front of Harry during the first phage/fetch attack he was present for. However, the ward didn’t stop Harry, it only slowed him down. What was the purpose of doing this? Either it was placed there by a weaker practitioner, or the goal of the ward was only to give the fetch a chance to do some damage before Harry arrived, to get Harry good and angry at what he would see when he arrived.
However, that doesn’t tell us who put up the ward in the first place. It couldn’t have been Mab. She had to be on the other side in order to send the fetches. Even the Queen of Air and Darkness can’t be at two separate places at the same time. Of course, this assumes it was Mab who sent the fetches.
Some people think Sandra Marling might have been a practitioner. That seems unlikely to me. She had known Molly for some time and for her to be a magic practitioner we have to assume they never had the slightest physical contact with one another, because if they touched for even a moment, Molly should have felt the power of another magic practitioner. Harry picked up on the power of the girl who had Cassandra’s Tears; in Grave Peril, and she wasn’t anyone of real power. Molly and Harry both felt each other’s power when they touched near the end of PG. So I think Molly would have remembered that sensation if she had ever had the slightest contact with Sandra. However, it is possible Sandra was working for someone else, even if she didn’t realize she was, but I’m getting ahead of myself.
Sandra was the person who gave Molly the fear suggestion which encouraged the impressionable girl to use black magic to prevent her friends from using heroin. Sandra sent Darby Crane the invitation to appear at Splattercon!!! Sandra also got Harry to break up the police interrogation of Molly. Perhaps she did this of her own accord or perhaps someone wanted Molly free so the fetches could grab her without interference.
Molly met Sandra Marling at a shelter; which I presume means homeless shelter, which Molly did community service at after she was arrested. About the same time Molly was making herslf known around Chicago's magical community, at least among some small time magic users or magic want'a be's. We know Mavra used a homeless shelter as a hideout for her scourge in Blood Rites. It’s possible she uses these types of places when she needs a short-term hidey hole. Now you have to wonder why I would be dragging Mavra into a story when we never saw a trace of her in the novel.
Think about the next book after Proven Guilty. In his final conversation with Lash in the Raith Deeps, Harry made an intuitive leap that the Black Court of Vampires is connected to the Outsiders in some fashion. This is just a guess on my part, but I won’t be surprised if we discover that the dark magic which animates Black Court vamps comes directly from the Outsiders. However, to get back to the facts, in the book before Proven Guilty, Harry threatened to destroy Mavra “horribly” if she ever threatened Murphy again. She had to be impressed by Harry’s improvised use of her own explosives to annihilate her flunkies in Blood Rites, even after his hand had been scorched. We know from Blood Rites that Mavra had been watching Harry fighting other monsters for some time without his knowledge. We also know Harry dissed her and took Amoracchius away from her at Bianca’s party. Do you think the egotistical sentient super-zombie is going to accept all of these things without trying to get back at Harry?
If Mavra became aware that Molly had any magic ability, what better way to get back at Harry than to corrupt the daughter of Harry’s best friend and at the same time settle a score she had with Michael for destroying what she called her children and grandchildren, twenty or so years before Bianca’s party? She would also drive a wedge between Michael and Harry through Molly's use of black magic. How could Michael look at Harry's use of magic with anything but disdain after what Mavra got her to do with magic? I’ve almost got myself convinced Sandra Marling is a fine thrall who was acting under Mavra’s command, but there is a major glitch with this idea.
According to Bob, a Black Court vampire doesn’t have enough humanity left in it to create a fine thrall; someone who can function on their own and who doesn’t even know they are a thrall. Either Bob is wrong, and he has been wrong before, or Sandra was working for someone else. Could Sandra have been working for Mab, and everything that happened to Molly, the suggestion to use black magic, the fetch attacks at Splattercon!!!, and her kidnapping, was part of Mab’s masterplan to get Harry to travel to Arctis Tor and learn about the so-called Black Council attack there? I’ll put a pin in this idea for now.
There are other facts to consider. Harry didn’t think the fetch attacks through all the way. He eventually realized the fetches were sent. He knew that fetches needed mirrors or a mirror like surface to cross over to the mortal plane. He knew that Molly provided a beacon of sorts that the fetches could use to find the convention. I think Harry was wrong about this last fact. Molly wasn’t at the convention when the last fetch attack occurred. Also, the fetches needed Clark Pell’s movie theater as a base to cross over to Arctis Tor. Someone had to pinpoint where Pell was for the fetch Hammerhands to find and beat him to a pulp in the Men’s room at the convention. Someone had to make a call that got Eldest Fetch to show up and take out Glau.
Just before Harry ran into the ward that slowed him down he said, “I reached out to the cold and gloom, and found it a vaguely familiar kind of spell working, though I couldn’t remember precisely where I’d encountered it before.” This sound’s to me like someone may have been messing with Harry’s memory, or perhaps I am reading what really isn’t there. I don’t think Harry ever felt Mab’s magic before PG. He saw her preparing for battle but probably wasn’t close enough to get a feel for her power. Maeve threw glamour at him during her party in Summer Knight, but I don’t know that Harry ever described feeling the energy she gave off when she was casting a spell. Harry has definitely felt Mavra’s magic and its cold and greasy. That’s similar to the murk that Harry and Rawlins couldn’t see through. Harry said it made the temperature fall about forty degrees in a few moments.
So to recap we know Sandra Marling played a major role in getting Molly to use black magic. If she didn’t have the ability to use magic, there must have been someone else at the convention under a veil; someone who could communicate with whoever sent the fetches, because someone had to pinpoint the exact locations to send them, at least in the case of the attack against Clark Pell and murder of Lucius Glau. This person had to be strong enough to make Harry work hard to fight through a ward. It was someone whose magic Harry had felt before and someone who is good at veils.
Now I’m going to stop and make a big WAG. If the guess I made earlier about the magic which animates the Black Court is correct, that it comes from the Outsiders, would that give a Black Court vampire like Mavra; who has great long-range communication skills with her scourge, and probably with her thralls and Renfields too, the same kind of communication ability with Nemfected agents? I mean they both might be able to communicate on the same magical wavelength. If that were true, it would give a veiled Mavra the ability to coordinate her actions with Maeve, if Maeve was at Pell’s theater just waiting to step across so she could send the fetches over from the other side.
Still don’t like the idea of Maeve sending the fetches. Wait there’s more. After Harry rescued Molly and got her back to Pell’s theater, Lily admitted that she hoped that Harry might threaten Winter’s Well Spring and draw Winter defenders back from Summer’s boarder so Maeve could slow time near Arctis Tor which would allow Summer to launch an attack against the Red Court. There is a great deal of information conveyed in the statement Lily made. So much so that it makes you miss an important fact. Lily’s plan was really; pick your adjective, lousy, dumb, idiotic, half-assed, incompetent, or simply unlikely to succeed, unless Lily was given some inside information. Someone Lily trusted; meaning Maeve, tipped her off that Eldest Fetch liked to take it’s victims to the top of Arctis Tor near Winter’s Well Spring. How else could Lily have thought that Harry would have the slightest chance to throw Summer fire anywhere near the Well? Knowing how much Maeve hated Mab, I think it's likely Maeve may even have told Eldest Fetch to carry Molly up to Mab's ice garden prison to both sully Mab's garden and to lay further suspicion on Mab should Harry somehow survive his encounter with the old fetch. Maeve gave Lily the information about Eldest Fetch's likely location because she calculated that the odds were good she would be sealing Dresden's fate by helping him go to Arctis Tor, but whatever happened the long con she was working on Lily would still be in place.
I think that Mavra and Nemfected Maeve were working together. If Sandra Marling wasn’t Mavra’s thrall, then she made a deal with Maeve and was working for her. Mavra gets her revenge on Michael and Harry. Molly dies, but not before her soul is tainted by the use of black magic. Harry blames Mab for Molly’s death. Maeve has more proof that Mab has gone insane. However, Mab crossed up their plans by visiting Harry’s lab and fixed Little Chicago, giving Harry a way to track the fetches. So when Lily contacted Maeve and came up with a plan to help Harry, Maeve had to go along with it and calculated that Eldest Fetch would kill Harry.
Either that, or there is my earlier idea that Mab was behind everything. In that case Maeve went along with Lily’s plan hoping to kill Harry, and as part of a long con to gain Lily's trust until she could work out a plan that would destroy Mab and both Courts with her.
There is one detail I haven't covered. If Maeve sent the fetches was there ever a plan in place to kidnap Molly? It's possible Molly's kidnapping was just an accident. However, when Harry was talking to Bob about diverting the fetches to what he thought was their summoner, Bob told him that was classic White Council doctrine. Therefore it's possible that Harry diverting the fetch's by sending out fear was a move that could have been anticipated. Particularly if the being who made the prediction was a powerful magic user herself, someone who may have been a member of the White Council before she became a Black Court vampire.
Yes, there is a lot of supposition in the picture or pictures I have just painted for you. However, I don't believe I have seen any better attempts to pull all or most of the pieces together in a coherent fashion. I will tell everyone that the reason I like Mavra playing a role in PG is she is still alive; sort of, and may one day get a chance to rub it in that she played Harry like a violin during the events of PG.
I haven’t even gotten to the so called Black Council attack on Arctis Tor, but this is a good place to stop for now. My thoughts on that subject might take up several more pages.
-
Well, let's attack that from a Doylist perspective. Jim mentions Mavra exactly once during the book: In the beginning, when Harry and Murphy are discussing the execution of the Korean warlock and mind tampering.
But that's not related to the fetches. I feel strongly that Jim played fair with this book. Everything we need is there. Sure, the solution before Cold Days is "Maybe Maeve is the insane one instead of Mab," and not anything about Nemesis, but the info for that is in the text. There are no clues in the text to suggest that Mavra had anything to do with this casefile.
-
I'm more of the mind now that Proven Guilty had Titania all over it.
Titania is assisting Mab by constraining Lily's options and outflanking her when needed. I'm now wondering if perhaps Titania fixed Little Chicago, if Sandra was an agent of Summer, Titania was aware of an assault on WInter and acted to take up some of Mab's duties. It's not required though that Titania be the one who fixed Little Chicago.
Now, why would she do that. Well, in the Disprove the Duck thread, I asked myself if Molly=Mab who traveled into the past, and Mab has a biological sister, then wouldn't Titania be one of Molly's sisters. If true, she definitely would have an interest in preserving Molly's future and preventing any gambit against Molly/Mab that would greatly change or skew Mab's current identity. This though would seem to suggest that the Queens know who they are, and can predict from this fact a great many things, particularly those of great import that must be done within the timeline. Those acting against Molly and Sister are acting against Mab and Titania. The opposition is trying to destroy this reality by changing Molly's or her Sister's, or both, future and consequently past.
This reasoning would be equally valid if Molly simply was Summer's choice for a new Summer Lady. Titania wasn't pleased with Lily and she began acting to address this deficiency.
Now consider, all attempts against the Carpenter's family whether that be Charity, in the case of Gregor, Nightmare, and Scarecrow, or Molly in the case of Artur Langtry, Convention Set Up, Capiocorpus, attacks on Molly during Ghost Story etc, kidnapping of Alicia by
-
I'm more of the mind now that Proven Guilty had Titania all over it.
Titania is assisting Mab by constraining Lily's options and outflanking her when needed. I'm now wondering if perhaps Titania fixed Little Chicago, if Sandra was an agent of Summer, Titania was aware of an assault on WInter and acted to take up some of Mab's duties. It's not required though that Titania be the one who fixed Little Chicago.
Now, why would she do that. Well, in the Disprove the Duck thread, I asked myself if Molly=Mab who traveled into the past, and Mab has a biological sister, then wouldn't Titania be one of Molly's sisters. If true, she definitely would have an interest in preserving Molly's future and preventing any gambit against Molly/Mab that would greatly change or skew Mab's current identity. This though would seem to suggest that the Queens know who they are, and can predict from this fact a great many things, particularly those of great import that must be done within the timeline. Those acting against Molly and Sister are acting against Mab and Titania. The opposition is trying to destroy this reality by changing Molly's or her Sister's, or both, future and consequently past.
This reasoning would be equally valid if Molly simply was Summer's choice for a new Summer Lady. Titania wasn't pleased with Lily and she began acting to address this deficiency.
Now consider, all attempts against the Carpenter's family whether that be Charity, in the case of Gregor, Nightmare, and Scarecrow, or Molly in the case of Artur Langtry, Convention Set Up, Capiocorpus, attacks on Molly during Ghost Story etc, kidnapping of Alicia by
My issue with this idea is that Titania was very clearly distraught over Aurora's death as of Cold Days. And she implies that Elder Gets helped her accept the truth, but she still wouldn't help Harry. I can't see her doing anything to help Harry. She seems ready to watch the world burn.
-
And she implies that Elder Gets helped her accept the truth, but she still wouldn't help Harry. I can't see her doing anything to help Harry.
Such an action could be viewed through the same lens that Harry uses to get Lily to help him via Charity. Titania goal isn't directly helping Harry its saving Molly. An action she can only do via indirect means with her fixing LC. But yes, this is a rather weak point and isn't required for the whole model to work as alleged.
I could see in Proven Guilty the following time travelers: Winter's contingent, Summer's contingent, Nemesis contingent, 'some fourth party's contingent.'
Winter-Harry, Molly, SOI?; Summer-Sarrissa, Fix; Nemesis: WC wizard, Denarian, Infected Fae;
-
No. Titania didn't fix LC. We have three clear suspects if we treat this as a fair play mystery (not that I think there are no problems with any of the suspects, but it seems clear to me that Jim intends is to consider the following three):
1. Future Harry. There's plenty of time where Harry is out of his apartment with Bob, and after Thomas has moved out, on the night Molly is taken. My guess as to motivation is that Future Harry has his own goal in this time period and requires LC to accomplish it. And Future Harry, perhaps with his spirit daughter, would have the means to make the fix.
2. Lash. She states several times that she wants to survive and will not if Harry kills himself. Motive. She seems to know it is broken and can fix it. Means. Opportunity is slim, but she does affect Harry without him knowing (Murphy points out his improved lying skills) and implies she can talk to him as he sleeps. So, Lash riding sleepwalking Harry provides the opportunity.
Or perhaps, like the Ladies, the Queens are colluding
3. Mab. She seems mostly concerned with healing Lea in this book, and my evidence that Titania is backstage in this novel also doubles as evidence that Mab is absent. We've hashed out that she can cross the threshold to help Harry, and that she likely has the means to fix it. Perhaps she trusted Harry to stop Maeve and provided this minimal assistance.
-
No. Titania didn't fix LC. We have three clear suspects if we treat this as a fair play mystery (not that I think there are no problems with any of the suspects, but it seems clear to me that Jim intends is to consider the following three):
1. Future Harry. There's plenty of time where Harry is out of his apartment with Bob, and after Thomas has moved out, on the night Molly is taken. My guess as to motivation is that Future Harry has his own goal in this time period and requires LC to accomplish it. And Future Harry, perhaps with his spirit daughter, would have the means to make the fix.
2. Lash. She states several times that she wants to survive and will not if Harry kills himself. Motive. She seems to know it is broken and can fix it. Means. Opportunity is slim, but she does affect Harry without him knowing (Murphy points out his improved lying skills) and implies she can talk to him as he sleeps. So, Lash riding sleepwalking Harry provides the opportunity.
Or perhaps, like the Ladies, the Queens are colluding
3. Mab. She seems mostly concerned with healing Lea in this book, and my evidence that Titania is backstage in this novel also doubles as evidence that Mab is absent. We've hashed out that she can cross the threshold to help Harry, and that she likely has the means to fix it. Perhaps she trusted Harry to stop Maeve and provided this minimal assistance.
During proven guilty Mab had taken over Lea's duty as a godmother so she had a clear motive to fix LC, as a Sidhe she could enter the threshold for that purpose as well and someone left that calvin and hobbes winter wonderland book in his lab.
She had an investment to protect. When she was in his appartment doing Lea's duties she saw what was wrong with LC and as a good guest and godmother she fixed it.
-
as Thomas moves out right before Harry stuffs Bob into his bag for half the book.
Harry actually stuffed Bob into his bag /before/ Thomas moved him out.
I wrote about this pretty extensively here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31689.0.html)
I'm not the only one floored by your pointing out that Titania was probably present during Proven Guilty. Awesome point!
-
KurtinStGeorge,
IMO, the 40 degree temperature drop should be a flashing neon sign that Winter was involved in the ward Harry had to fight through that was familiar to him. I also agree with the points that Mavra wasn't really mentioned much in that book and thus wasn't relevant. I also think Mavra is pretty dang scared of Harry since Harry is a serious threat to her necromantically. Jim has said (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26717.msg1138970.html#msg1138970) that Harry wasn't bluffing about his insights from Kemler's book being a credible threat to her.
On the other hand, for the original timeline, Proven Guilty was supposed to happen before Harry read the Kemler book. And although Mavra wasn't mentioned, it's commonly accepted around here that the homeless shelter reference could be a tie in to Mavra.
I dunno, I think Mavra's being involved at the convention is a long shot, but I won't throw it out.
-
What if the weather wasn't caused by Titania's presence, but by Mab's preoccupation? is there a chance that her work to heal Lea, combined with Maeve neglecting her duties, AT being weakened, and the odd arrangement of winter's forces, might have contributed to the odd weather patterns in many places, but Harry's perspective only saw Chicago?
While I agree that the weather does tie into previously witnessed weather changes due to the presence of a queen, I just haven't been able to figure out what role Titania played. not without requiring time travel Harry to go back to find out what was really happening.
-
KurtinStGeorge,
IMO, the 40 degree temperature drop should be a flashing neon sign that Winter was involved in the ward Harry had to fight through that was familiar to him.
I recall frost forming on the blue beetle's windshield and on the wire fence at Wal Mart in Summer Knight. That was Elaine's work and it was an attempt to make Harry believe someone in Winter was behind stealing the Summer Knight's mantel. So I discount the temperature drop as proof that anyone from Winter put up the ward.
KurtinStGeorge,
On the other hand, for the original timeline, Proven Guilty was supposed to happen before Harry read the Kemler book. And although Mavra wasn't mentioned, it's commonly accepted around here that the homeless shelter reference could be a tie in to Mavra.
I dunno, I think Mavra's being involved at the convention is a long shot, but I won't throw it out.
I have wondered what elements of the back story of Proven Guilty had to be swapped with those in Dead Beat in order to make the flipping of the order of those two books make sense. For example, did Jim originally have the Red Court calling up Outsiders and using of poison gas on wounded Wardens and near by civilians, in the first version of Proven Guilty and then have to flip the big assault on the White Council to Dead Beat when that one was moved ahead of PG?
I also wonder if flipping the books might have created one or more inconsistencies within the total story arc. My guess is Jim worked through any issues that may have arisen, but we can't be entirely certain of that.
On a slightly different tack, we know PG takes place in the summer time. In one of the early chapters Harry mentions he wants to get back inside out of the blazing sun. As I stated in my earlier post, the planning for the fetch attacks and setting up Darby Crane to take the fall for them started a little more than a year previously. That means the planning was in motion before the events in Dead Beat occurred. In my mind that at least removes Cowl and Kumori from playing any hidden role in PG. They were too involved in their own attempt to turn Cowl into a demi-god during the previous autumn to have also been in on the planning of the events which occurred at Splattercon!!!
-
Harry actually stuffed Bob into his bag /before/ Thomas moved him out.
I wrote about this pretty extensively here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31689.0.html)
Geez I just read this book and I still got the timing wrong! Anyways, that fits in with my theory that Future Harry is working with Thomas. (Did you see my point about how Thomas pretty consistently stays out of any decision making once he rescues Harry?)
I'm not the only one floored by your pointing out that Titania was probably present during Proven Guilty. Awesome point!
Thanks!
-
WHY MOLLY?
This is difficult to guess, and can seemingly only be explained by assuming Maeve knows more than she should. Either Maeve knows that Molly is Harry's best friend's daughter and a mortal practitioner coming into her talent, or it is an amazing coincidence that her plan hinges on. We know Arctis Tor was attacked by a rogue Denarian. We suspect this rogue Denarian was a Nemesis agent with a Coin. It's plausible to posit that Maeve and Nemesis sent another agent, the rogue Denarian, to clear out Arctis Tor, leaving the Wellspring unguarded why Mab was curing the Leanansidhe. And through Lea and the Denarian, it's possible Nemesis knows about Michael. But what about his family?
Gregor. Molly was targeted as Charity's daughter, and not as Michael's. We know she has Fae in her ancestry, and that this is likely the source of her and her daughter's talents. I posit that Charity is Aurora's descendant. Future Harry, by the way, isn't the only player operating on the periphery. Someone else is in town.
The sun had risen on our way there, though heavy cloud cover and grumbling thunder promised unusually bad weather for so early in the day. That shouldn't have surprised me either. When the Queens of Faerie were moving around backstage, the weather quite often seemed to reflect their presence.
We see this again in Small Favor and Ghost Story, where particularly frigid weather means that Mab is in the area. So, let's check out the opening to Proven Guilty's second chapter:
I turned my back on them and walked out of the warehouse into Chicago's best impression of Miami. July in the Midwest is rarely less than sultry, but this year had been especially intense when it came to summer heat, and it had rained frequently.
What the hell is Titania doing in Chicago? Combining this with Mab's assertion that Molly would be a better fit for Summer and the symmetry of a Winter scion becoming the Summer Lady while a Summer scion becomes the Winter Lady, and it's not unreasonable to conclude that Molly's Fae ancestry stretches to Titania.
But that doesn't answer what Titania's goal is. Fix and Lily aren't working towards it. They're working towards Maeve's goals. It would be a stretch for Titania to be infected with Nemesis, wouldn't it?
I suspect that Titania was trying to groom Molly to be Lily's successor, subtly, in the background. Maybe by nudging the right books into Molly's hands. I suspect that Winter's Queens knew this and were keeping tabs on Molly for that reason. And when the pump was primed, Maeve chose Molly to use as a fear anchor.
This is the wildest-assed guess, but I think it holds up
To me, the above quoted piece is pioneering work that I haven't seen before on this forum. The plausible link between Titania and Titania's choice for Summer Lady being that of Molly is excellent.
There's another time traveler in the tale, and I suspect he's working with Thomas. It seems suspicious that Thomas is tailing Harry on this one adventure. But there's something I noticed once Thomas joins the plot: he does his best to remain uninvolved.
I glanced at Thomas, who was facing away, a little apart from the rest of us, staying out of the decision-making process.
There are other instances where Thomas basically wallflowers. He's very careful not to disrupt the natural flow of the case as much as he can help it. I think, like Rashid, Thomas has future information.**
Hitting Harry keeps him out of the apartment. I posit that Future Harry is at the periphery in Proven Guilty, and whenever Harry is out of the apartment, Future Harry is using it as his base of operations. Future Harry has Thomas as a knowing accomplice.***
This is another strong argument that Thomas knows more than he lets on. Prior theories had interactions between Thomas and LC Fixer, even a time traveling Harry, but it seemed that no theory suggested that they were closely working together.
When Harry comes home and finds Thomas all packed up and ready to leave, there is a strange conversation between Thomas and Harry. About Mac's brew frozen into ice cubes, that Thomas says Mac would kill you for freezing it, that Harry says Mac can come over here and... (forget the final bit of the conversation). But there seems something that Thomas is trying to tell Harry, some hint about upcoming events. One could argue its simply chatter leading up to Thomas telling Harry that he is leaving though I'm sure Harry already knows that considering the packed bags.
Not to detract from your accomplishment but to state fact, the hot weather had been pointed out previously and it had been linked to Titania but no theory went any further than that. No one that I saw ever attempted to link Molly to Titania, Titania's play in PG, and Mab's statement in Cold Days, even viewed with hindsight.
-
Random point but bob tells us in SK that global warming is actually down to Summer holding a slight edge over Winter for the last century or so influence wise, (presumably due to maeve slacking off).
As of PG not only is Mab's personal Lieutenant out of the picture but so is Mab, and maeve is now actively collaborating with Summer, not to mention the WK is out of play. That puts Winters influence at an all time low. Which means the world will get warmer. You don't need Titania present or involved to get a blazing hot summer.
-
Geez I just read this book and I still got the timing wrong! Anyways, that fits in with my theory that Future Harry is working with Thomas. (Did you see my point about how Thomas pretty consistently stays out of any decision making once he rescues Harry?)
Oh yah, you're conclusions are still upheld, or even stronger given the arguments I made in that link.
Sometimes when I "Theorize" on specifics in the events in the stories, I just point in a direction and don't actually conclude much for fear of being wrong. I don't really enjoy getting bashed for proposing a theory that doesn't have much backing, but I do enjoy reading them.
I'm not 100% sold that Thomas' wall flower impression is significant in the way you say (I seem to remember Thomas doing it even after the action for very credible reasons within the story), but it certainly is a data point that helps support the TT!Harry theories and I don't remember anyone coming up with it before.
-
A number of thoughts:
1) We've been told that Madrigal/Darby was invited to the Con about a year previous, so whoever is hatching these plans, started around the events of Dead Beat (possibly even before? Need to look at the exact dates).
2) Mab winks at Harry. To me this implies that Mab was orchestrating at least some of the events. Note also the famous PG WoJ:
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it?
Jim may well be lying or misleading us, but the straight reading of that sentence implies that the actual kidnapping of Molly was Mab's idea.
3) As mentioned above, extreme heat may also be caused by Mab being busy with healing Lea. Other alternative -- seasons. Assume that Mab isn't capable of physically raising the global temperature around the world and that instead she "cheats" -- e.g. blows cold weather from the North Pole to Chicago (e.g. to help Harry during SmF). If this is the case, it makes some weird sense that "nature" would push back, creating a heat wave once Mab was done "pushing".
4) The big issue with TTHarry (and yes, I am a believer in that theory) is that it introduces a whole new complexity to the narrative. I think it would be interesting to assume TTHarry for PG, and then use Occam's Razor on everything else -- i.e. try to come up with the simplest narrative that includes TTH.
5) On the plus side, I find it interesting that Titania actually helps Harry with saving Molly. Granting him the title of "Esquire of the Summer Court" might have been a two-edged sword, but it certainly helped his credibility in the short term. I'm not sure that action really fits our image of a completely vindictive Titania.
6) Another Titania-shaped piece is that we've seen how Mab is required to fulfill Lea's debts while she was being "detained". You'd think the same thing would apply to Titania/Lily. Was Titania preventing Lily from helping Harry in the hopes of getting Lily debt to Harry to fall on Titania? The fact that Harry got around the geas by giving to Charity might not have been Titania's original plan.
-
1. Which is why I like Marling as a pawn of Maeve and not Maeve glamoured. Her cover is much too deep and I don't think Maeve has the skills to pull it off for a year.
2. That is a very good point. Jim does seem to be clearly saying that Mab done did it with regards to at least the kidnapping. I still think the majority of the plot was Maeve's plan, though. Ah! I have a working hypothesis!
That fateful night must have also been the attack on Arctis Tor. When Mab's elite assassins weren't there for it, Mab must have had the fetches return with the mortal Maeve was using as their anchor.
3. Most of the "Mab's here so it's winter in Chicago" stuff comes after this, though. I do buy that the strong summer could be a lack of winter, but with the Table in Summer's control anyways, I think Titania having a role to play is likelier.
4. Well, there's a ready-made other story happening... the attack on Arctis Tor. A rogue Denarian. I like Future Harry for that plot. I also like him for fixing Little Chicago for his own purposes because, once you let him into the narrative, he's the most reasonable suspect.
5. That is a very good point, and circumstantial corroboration of my "Titania is grooming Molly" theory! Titania isn't stopping Lily from helping Harry because Lily is also helping Molly.
6. I don't buy it. Remember Lily owes Harry a favor. Why would Titania try to orchestrate events to make it so that she would owe Harry? In the end, yes, Harry gets a free favor from her. Which she then makes him desperate enough to use in Small Favor.
-
I recall frost forming on the blue beetle's windshield and on the wire fence at Wal Mart in Summer Knight. That was Elaine's work and it was an attempt to make Harry believe someone in Winter was behind stealing the Summer Knight's mantel. So I discount the temperature drop as proof that anyone from Winter put up the ward.
Slate was there as well, in fact I always took it he was responsible for the frost on the Beetle's windshield. He did attack Harry right after that. I thought the frost was part of Slate's attack. Blind the enemy the move in. The wire fence could have been either one, but since I prefer Slate doing that as well. It could be written off to Aurora, but I find it unlikely given Slate was present as well.
-
Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG. It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.
In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle. If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?
Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.
Edit: Never mind, wyltok already did an amaising job of discussing most of this here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36977.0.html)
-
I suppose Lloyd might not count as he's pretty well inactive. In addition, I mean, it's not impossible that the Mantles are extra-temporal (so from the perspective of the mantles themselves, there's no issue) or that Future Fix is also there as a counter-weight.
Or, and now we're really off the rails even for a time travel theory, Future Harry is actually Unstuck In Time Harry and also Sleepwalking Harry.
-
Or maybe one of the twists is that it really is a problem, and if Harry uses his WK powers during his TT episode, he breaks the universe. Seems like a curveball Jim might use.
-
A limit to impose on Harry for an adventure? Jim would never do that to him.
-
Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG. It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.
In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle. If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?
Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.
Interesting point. From the events of SK, I dont think the mantle has any sort of "Always Open" connection to the Queens, and the Mantle itself is always described as a specific lump investment of Power, which sounds like a Finite allotment. So, if he didnt directly interact with himself or an active Queen, it shouldnt cause immediate paradox problems. It would lead to a Court imbalance since there would suddenly be twice as much Winter KNight around, but as long has he left quickly and took the extra power with him when he left it wouldnt be around enough to cause lasting issues.
Of course, all that assumes that when you Time Travel you are creating a Time Travel Duplicate. My current Time Travelling Harry theory has it working like 7 Days, where you jump back into your younger body and just bring along your mind, and that Harry's large Memory gaps (the Justin Confrontation, the several hour gap after the battle of Chitzen Itza, etc) are instances where he wasnt in the Driver Seat because a Harry with more seniority was visiting.
-
@Knnn: Wow, wow, wow...
Where'd you find that line, just for reference?
That throws a lot more balls up in the air than previously. We know from Mab herself in CD that she had no interest in Molly personally till the end of changes. That combined with this really narrows down what Mab was trying to achieve but runs head on into the question of how she knew Maeve would help Harry when he needed it, and what if anything she was planning beyond the simple lure Harry to Arctis Tor.
-
@Knnn: Wow, wow, wow...
Where'd you find that line, just for reference?
That throws a lot more balls up in the air than previously. We know from Mab herself in CD that she had no interest in Molly personally till the end of changes. That combined with this really narrows down what Mab was trying to achieve but runs head on into the question of how she knew Maeve would help Harry when he needed it, and what if anything she was planning beyond the simple lure Harry to Arctis Tor.
What passage are you looking at for this bit? I didnt remember that and cant find it in the last conversation Harry and Mab had after the killing. Was it before that somewhere?
-
@Knnn: Wow, wow, wow...
Where'd you find that line, just for reference?
That throws a lot more balls up in the air than previously. We know from Mab herself in CD that she had no interest in Molly personally till the end of changes. That combined with this really narrows down what Mab was trying to achieve but runs head on into the question of how she knew Maeve would help Harry when he needed it, and what if anything she was planning beyond the simple lure Harry to Arctis Tor.
I don't think that is exactly true, it was foreshadowed in Grave Peril when Lea said something to Michael about his first born.. No not exactly Mab, but then again the connection is there.
-
I think Carl is referring to the WoJ I quoted.
@Carl, there's a whole section in the forums detailing all the WoJ we collectively have (many thanks to Serack for compiling most of them and to anyone and everyone who contributes/d). I make a point of going through them about once a year (and to re-listen to old podcasts/interviews to see if there are any others I can add).
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/board,43.50.html
The specific WoJ in question is from one of those rare times Jim actually posted on the forums. It's well worth click on his profile and reading everything he posted here.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=5
This particular WoJ is from:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,330.msg152191.html#msg152191
(Actually, I pulled it from Elegast's PG thread http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html)
-
I think Carl is referring to the WoJ I quoted.
the "Why did Mab have Molly brought in" quote? There wasnt anything there, or in the source WOJ, that said Mab wasnt interested in Molly unitl after Changes (and was from 2 years prior to Changes anyway).
I ask because everything we have, most especially that WOJ, says Mab was interested in Molly at least as early as PG. If we have something that says otherwise it's a big detail
-
Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG. It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.
In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle. If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?
Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.
We'll have to see what happens to the mantle when he travels to a different dimension. Does it go with him, or does it get stripped from him? If it goes, then the original universe is thrown out of balance by its absence.
But I'd assume that since Slate is inactive as Knight, and was for years, that there wouldn't be too much of an issue. Not for such a brief time.
-
What passage are you looking at for this bit? I didnt remember that and cant find it in the last conversation Harry and Mab had after the killing. Was it before that somewhere?
It's in the final part of CD. Mab talks about how Molly helping Harry kill himself brought her to her attention.
@Knnn: there's so many WoJ's finding a specific one can be tough, also the archive hasn't been updated since SG so it's doubtless missing some and i wasn't sure if it was one of those.
-
the "Why did Mab have Molly brought in" quote? There wasnt anything there, or in the source WOJ, that said Mab wasnt interested in Molly unitl after Changes (and was from 2 years prior to Changes anyway).
I ask because everything we have, most especially that WOJ, says Mab was interested in Molly at least as early as PG. If we have something that says otherwise it's a big detail
There's an inference in COLD DAYS that Mab trusted Molly as capable enough because Harry trusted her to mess with his head in CHANGES. I didn't take it so much as Mab taking a 'first interest', but her assuming that Harry was signing off that Molly was ready.
“You trusted her with your mind and your life,” Mab said. “I took that as a statement of confidence in her abilities.
-
It's in the final part of CD. Mab talks about how Molly helping Harry kill himself brought her to her attention.
Yes, but all that was talking about how she originally had another purpose in mind for Molly, but had to retask her as a Lady candidate to counter the Maeve ploy. She was already interested and active with Molly.
-
“You trusted her with your mind and your life,” Mab said. “I took that as a statement of confidence in her abilities.
You know, I sometimes wonder if I'm infected with some sort of Ms.Duck disease. I cant help but view Mab's lines not just as a literal comment but one that has a bearing on herself. For instance, Mab is saying two things: Harry had confidence in Molly; Secondly, Harry had confidence in Molly=Mab's abilities.
I just don't do this with Mab words, I see things in the books and its like all shaded by Ms. Duck's theory. Its like Ms. Duck actually is Molly and Mab and she is playing with my thoughts, my mind. Is there some banishment spell or something that can help with this affliction?
-
To add to more fuel to the plot is also Mab's comment that she thought Molly was better suited to Summer.
She may have been directly/indirectly working with Titania to groom Molly for a role in the SUMMER court, Mab had just discovered her Winter Lady was infected, but no worries she has a spare daughter if she can't cure Maeve. But if the Outsiders/Enemy has gotten THAT close to Mab then the current Summer Lady has GOT to go, Lily was in no way ready for the role she would need to play if the Enemy got further 'inside' so to speak. Molly could have started to be groomed become the Summer Knight or Summer Lady at the Proven Guilty stage.
It was only after her actions in Changes, messing with Harry's mind, able to make the hard logical calls to 'get the job done' as opposed of letting her very strong emotions/feeling for Harry get in the way of it would have gotten Mab's attention. By choosing Logic over her Heart Molly showed she had the chops to be a part of the Winter Court, and Mab tailored her plans accordingly.
-
Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG. It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.
In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle. If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?
Dangit, now I've got an itch to create an exhaustive topic outlining the possible LC fix perps, and thoroughly hashing the pros and cons of each.
Edit: Never mind, wyltok already did an amaising job of discussing most of this here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36977.0.html)
Is it likely that having 2 WK mantles present at the same time would weaken Winter and supply the heat in the book? The power of the mantles comes from Mab. If she's powering two of them at the same time that might set some limits on her influences and, by extension, supply a simple action/reaction 'boost' to Summer's influences. Might explain why she's in AT, staying as close to the Wellspring as she can.
And, having two mantles together like that would give Mab loads of support why she tells Harry (more than once) he'll be the WK at some point. She knows it because it's already happened.
Not sure. It's so muddy that almost anything could be true.
/sigh
-
Read the surrounding text, (the specific line i was thinking of may have been lea in GS now that i think about it):
Specifically:
Had I not considered her an excellent candidate, I would never have had her prepared.
In this case prepared is clearly referencing the point a few pages earlier that it was Molly's association with the Fae through Lea that made her a viable as a Lady candidate. Mab had Molly prepared because of what Harry did in changes. Which is what i said anyway.
-
Hmmmm, I just thought of an issue with TTHarry acting in PG. It's a little vague and probably workaroundable but it is a genuine issue that is new.
In PG Slate still holds the Winter Knight mantle. If TTHarry is still the Winter Knight when he is doing his alleged shenanigans in PG, wouldn't the dual mantle presence present its own paradox?
Actually, I encountered this same conundrum when I predicted a (Kumori=Maggie Sr) and (Kumori/Maggie Sr has Lasciel's coin) theory. A reality with time travel could have multiple coins of the same Fallen existing at the same point in time, particularly if they are carried there by a time traveler.
But this same problem exists when one has the same individual present multiple times within same timeframe. There are probably similar mechanisms that explain both. TTHarry (from future) would be pulling power from the FutureQueens not from the current Queens. Future Queens determined that it was necessary to defeat a gambit in the past by sending their knight and power into the past, it weakens them in their current time but its likely that the enemy did the same thing by sending their power into the past which then required a response from the Queens.
It seems to me that it is Mother Summer and Winter that have jurisdiction over of matters of time. Like there is a distribution of responsibility for each level in the Queens hierarchy.
Time; Time
Winter and Outergate; Summer and Mab;
Winter and Mortal Realm Summer and Mortal Realm
-
So the more I turn it over, the more I like the newer Future Harry theory I came up with. It's pretty raw, and does nothing to explain who attacked Harry but...
Listen. Harry Dresden is unstuck in time.
It would allow him to time travel while minimizing the, ah, let's call it the Two Bodies Problem (arranging things so Harry and Future Harry don't meet).
It would explain the line, "You are much easier to talk to when you are asleep, my host."
I'll further posit that Future Harry has ordered Lash to maintain the timestream by acting like Little Chicago is not fixed. (Broken timestream is inimical to everyone's survival, including Lasciel, whose spiritual self is bound to the material realm through the Coin.)
It would explain away the Two Mantles Problem as well. There's just one hitch with the Unstuck Harry theory:
Who hit Harry?
The accident is to make Harry think he has a concussion instead of too many people in his head, but Unstuck Harry would need an accomplice to do it. He has Thomas following him for the case until he needs to be rescued from Darby and Glau, so I posit that Thomas is the assailant in the beginning chapters.
Actually, I can explain that.
There are no witnesses to the accident. Earlier in the same car ride, Harry makes a big deal about how real Lash's illusions are. I've already posited that Unstuck Harry is working with Lash, so Lash could have created the illusion of the other car, tricked Harry into a non-fatal car crash, and used the concussion to hide the presence of Unstuck Harry in Harry's already crowded head.
It's official. Unstuck Harry is the new black.
-
Who hit Harry?
I actually like that hit to be the bad guys screwing over the time line. Which then leads to a response by Team Dresden to counter it.
-
There's just one hitch with the Unstuck Harry theory:
Who hit Harry?
The accident is to make Harry think he has a concussion instead of too many people in his head, but Unstuck Harry would need an accomplice to do it. He has Thomas following him for the case until he needs to be rescued from Darby and Glau, so I posit that Thomas is the assailant in the beginning chapters.
Actually, I can explain that.
There are no witnesses to the accident. Earlier in the same car ride, Harry makes a big deal about how real Lash's illusions are. I've already posited that Unstuck Harry is working with Lash, so Lash could have created the illusion of the other car, tricked Harry into a non-fatal car crash, and used the concussion to hide the presence of Unstuck Harry in Harry's already crowded head
-
Actually, I can explain that.
There are no witnesses to the accident. Earlier in the same car ride, Harry makes a big deal about how real Lash's illusions are. I've already posited that Unstuck Harry is working with Lash, so Lash could have created the illusion of the other car, tricked Harry into a non-fatal car crash, and used the concussion to hide the presence of Unstuck Harry in Harry's already crowded head
Grayson the cop said it looked like Harry (the beetle) got hit a couple times.
-
Grayson the cop said it looked like Harry (the beetle) got hit a couple times.
But to be fair it always looks like that, and harry did bounce around it traffic a bit, or at least curbside. It would take somebody that sees it often enough to recognize new damage, i would think. Murphy might have been able to spot what's fresh, or thomas
-
I think most of the mysteries of Proven Guilty are in fact intended to get Harry to Arctis Tor at that particular time to witness the aftermath of the attack and the cure of Lea. That means Mab.
On approaching Arctis Tor Harry see the bones of the Defenders destroyed by much, much more fire than Harry could have produced, specifically Hellfire. Harry is a powerful Wizard and has an affinity for fire and is backed by a Denarian and couldn't have pulled this off. Thorned Namshiel most likely wasn't powerful enough either.
Only one being is at that power level and wields Hellfire. Lucifer. He is mentioned in PG "of course, I suppose someone looked down upon young Lucifer and considered what tremendous potential he contained" page 391 Orbit Edition. Did events get Harry thinking of Lucifer?
What could have drawn a Nemesis agent out to attack Arctis Tor? It doesn't weaken the Winter Court in defending the Gates . I think the reason was to release/kill the Nemesis infected Lea, but the attack failed to do either.
The Winter/Summer conflict was engineered by Mab to leave Arctis Tor relatively lightly defended, with Lea as bait. She used this to confirm Maeves infection (suspicions raised by Her use of Jenny Greenteeth against the Bordens against Faerie nature) and to draw out Lucifer.
In parallel she needed Dresden to witness events, Molly was the plan for that, abduct her and take her to Arctis Tor. Mab arranged for the Gatekeeper to tip Harry off, for the car accident to give her time to fix Little Chicago, fix Little Chicargo so Harry could pinpoint the black magic (only for that to be unnecessary due to Molly phoning him, poor Harry a concussion from Mab for nothing). Sandra Marling was most likely a tool of Mab, perhaps Ekdest Fetch? As the connector between Molly and the Con, and setting up Madrigal (who is also a suspected agent of the Black Council.
Why have Dresden witness this? Well he passed on the fact of the use of Hellfire at Arctis Tor to Nicodemus in Small Favour, which appears to have set the ball rolling on the events in Skin Game, and of course Lucifer was powering the traps for Marcone and the Archive.
In Changes Lucifer whispers to Dresden the words which provoke the attempt on his life to thwart Mab, breaking the 'rules' leading Mab to take extreme measures to save Dresden. Preservation of an eye witness to Arctis Tor? Revenge for breaking up Lucifer /Nic? Nic goes for the knife as it can kill Lucifer who Nic strongly suspects is Nemesis infected and changes the whole motivation of the Fall.
Oh and Mac witnessed Maeve in the pub, he's working for Mab, why else did he get neutral status, and get healed by her in Cold Days, no debt incurred.
-
I'm gonna approach this from the perspective that Harry's Team needed to be there. They needed knowledge of the events so that they can use that knowledge in the future.
It goes somewhere along the lines of prevailing thoughts in the first few books:
Tell Murphy everything.
Assume for the sake of argument that TTMurphy=Mab.
Then the more that our Murphy gains in knowledge, the better able Mab will be able to deal with it. It applies for all members of Team Dresden, or in Murphy's words, Team Murphy.
-
I think most of the mysteries of Proven Guilty are in fact intended to get Harry to Arctis Tor at that particular time to witness the aftermath of the attack and the cure of Lea. That means Mab.
On approaching Arctis Tor Harry see the bones of the Defenders destroyed by much, much more fire than Harry could have produced, specifically Hellfire. Harry is a powerful Wizard and has an affinity for fire and is backed by a Denarian and couldn't have pulled this off. Thorned Namshiel most likely wasn't powerful enough either.
Only one being is at that power level and wields Hellfire. Lucifer. He is mentioned in PG "of course, I suppose someone looked down upon young Lucifer and considered what tremendous potential he contained" page 391 Orbit Edition. Did events get Harry thinking of Lucifer?
What could have drawn a Nemesis agent out to attack Arctis Tor? It doesn't weaken the Winter Court in defending the Gates . I think the reason was to release/kill the Nemesis infected Lea, but the attack failed to do either.
The Winter/Summer conflict was engineered by Mab to leave Arctis Tor relatively lightly defended, with Lea as bait. She used this to confirm Maeves infection (suspicions raised by Her use of Jenny Greenteeth against the Bordens against Faerie nature) and to draw out Lucifer.
In parallel she needed Dresden to witness events, Molly was the plan for that, abduct her and take her to Arctis Tor. Mab arranged for the Gatekeeper to tip Harry off, for the car accident to give her time to fix Little Chicago, fix Little Chicargo so Harry could pinpoint the black magic (only for that to be unnecessary due to Molly phoning him, poor Harry a concussion from Mab for nothing). Sandra Marling was most likely a tool of Mab, perhaps Ekdest Fetch? As the connector between Molly and the Con, and setting up Madrigal (who is also a suspected agent of the Black Council.
Why have Dresden witness this? Well he passed on the fact of the use of Hellfire at Arctis Tor to Nicodemus in Small Favour, which appears to have set the ball rolling on the events in Skin Game, and of course Lucifer was powering the traps for Marcone and the Archive.
In Changes Lucifer whispers to Dresden the words which provoke the attempt on his life to thwart Mab, breaking the 'rules' leading Mab to take extreme measures to save Dresden. Preservation of an eye witness to Arctis Tor? Revenge for breaking up Lucifer /Nic? Nic goes for the knife as it can kill Lucifer who Nic strongly suspects is Nemesis infected and changes the whole motivation of the Fall.
Oh and Mac witnessed Maeve in the pub, he's working for Mab, why else did he get neutral status, and get healed by her in Cold Days, no debt incurred.
What was the name of lea's driver in changes? Maybe he did it at mab's command