ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Todjaeger on August 14, 2012, 06:14:45 PM
-
Hello, I'm looking into modelling an Evocation-based sleep spell which can be cast in combat. What I'm trying to determine is whether or not such a spell is viable, of if it would be overall too difficult to be worthwhile (i.e. have your opponent fall asleep during a fight...).
The examples given of sleep spells in the RAW are Thaumaturgy.
What I was considering was using Spirit Evocations to inflict mental stress, but to get to the Taken Out result, all the Consequence boxes need to be filled. Also, the target's recovery time would be considerable if they opted to take all possible Consequences to avoid being put to sleep.
Does anyone have some alternate thoughts?
-Cheers
-
You could make it an offensive block. The target resists with endurance, and as long as the block is up, it can't do anything. Though a block that blocks everything should be able to be overcome by everything, which kind of makes this a weak option. Every other evocation option would be too weak as well. Or too strong, if you would, for example, allow a tag for effect on a maneuver spell to take someone out.
I like the approach of turning signature spells into powers of their own. For a sleep spell, you could adopt the incite emotion power, and you'll have a pretty powerful sleep spell at your disposal.
-
You don't need all the consequence boxes filled to get a Taken Out. You can be Taken Out without taking any consequences at all.
That said, there's really no reason this spell can't just be a regular physical attack spell, with the Taken Out result being "you fall asleep."
-
Hello, I'm looking into modelling an Evocation-based sleep spell which can be cast in combat. What I'm trying to determine is whether or not such a spell is viable, of if it would be overall too difficult to be worthwhile (i.e. have your opponent fall asleep during a fight...).
The examples given of sleep spells in the RAW are Thaumaturgy.
What I was considering was using Spirit Evocations to inflict mental stress, but to get to the Taken Out result, all the Consequence boxes need to be filled. Also, the target's recovery time would be considerable if they opted to take all possible Consequences to avoid being put to sleep.
Does anyone have some alternate thoughts?
-Cheers
I'd say it would be possible. but *really* difficult. Because that's effectively soft-touch psychomancy, it's a very grey area within the Laws, and converting Thaumaturgy to Evocation always results in prohibitively high power costs. There's also the question of being able to control the magic sufficiently well to put someone to sleep temporarily, rather than permanently. we know Molly does it in GS, but other than that there's nothing to suggest it's possible when the target is resisiting.
-
Oooooooor, simply flavor the spell that it's making the target physically exhausted. Fudging with peoples' brains isn't the only way to make someone fall asleep. Just drain their strength until they're physically tired.
-
Oooooooor, simply flavor the spell that it's making the target physically exhausted. Fudging with peoples' brains isn't the only way to make someone fall asleep. Just drain their strength until they're physically tired.
Hmm, that gives me an idea. How about an offensive armor spell? You set up an offensive block as armor, so you divide its power by 2, but then it will stick to the skill it targets, and it will effectively reduce that skill by the armor rating of the spell.
If you target the endurance skill, and the target needs to make an endurance check at some point, he will have to use the reduced value of the skill, so he would be more likely to fail. More of an exhaust spell than a sleep spell, but maybe that's something to build on. Stress boxes should not be affected by this, of course.
-
Keep in mind that DFRPG mental damage is not the "stun" damage that it is in other game systems. A sleep spell using a mental attack should more likely induce narcolepsy than a nice nap. As Mr. Death suggested, making someone tired enough to fall asleep reflects physical stress, not mental stress.
-
Oooooooor, simply flavor the spell that it's making the target physically exhausted. Fudging with peoples' brains isn't the only way to make someone fall asleep. Just drain their strength until they're physically tired.
Or suck the air of their lungs and increase the oxygen content of the air they breath and make them faint...flavour flavour
-
Mechanically, it's just an attack. Likely on the physical track (to cause physical exhaustion, rather than mental). Consequences could be "Tired" "Exhausted" "Running on Fumes" and taken out would be sound asleep.
If it's mental, it likely requires Thaumaturgy (Bio or Psychomancy) at Evocation's methods and speed.
I like the changing air composition idea.
-
Mechanically, it's just an attack. Likely on the physical track (to cause physical exhaustion, rather than mental). Consequences could be "Tired" "Exhausted" "Running on Fumes" and taken out would be sound asleep.
Not so much sound asleep as black out/fainted from severe exhaustion. Running a body down until it collapses really is more aggressive then "sleep spell" makes it sound.
Then again if you make those consequences "yawn" "drowsiness" "eyes sagging" it might sound a lot more freandly but I can't think of any severe consequences that don't sound severe.
-
Severe Consequences also don't just up and evaporate after a good night's sleep.
-
Severe Consequences also don't just up and evaporate after a good night's sleep.
"Narcolepsy" or "Rolling Blackouts"
-
Severe Consequences also don't just up and evaporate after a good night's sleep.
The Stress and Consequences track is part of what is causing me some trouble in terms of modelling the spell.
The desired end result of the spell is effectively a Taken Out result, in the form of the target being Taken Out via sleep. Unfortunately, if the target is resisting being Taken Out (and why wouldn't they resist?) then sufficient Stress needs to be caused to force a Taken Out result, with the attacker flavoring the result with Sleep as opposed to dead. The target would still have to 'pay' for any consequences they took attempting to avoid being put to sleep.
Unless of course the target opted to Concede and allowed themselves to be Taken Out instead of taking any Consequences.
-Cheers
-
Put the characters in a situation where they know they've got a ways to go and they might need those higher level consequences later on. A severe consequence is at the "We're taking you the ER dude" level in my mind. Maybe slip them the hint that (to use a D&D analogy) taking a severe consequence at that point would be like using your highest level spell on the random encounter.
-
Looking at the sleep spells in YS again, I can't help but notice, that those are not actually sleep spells in the sense you want it to be for your evocations, Todjaeger. They are, in fact, blocks against nightmares, the sleeping part is only secondary to the whole thing and voluntary.
As many have said, it will probably come down to a taken out result. You'll want to use sleep spells on mooks with 2 stress boxes and no consequences, to take them out without killing. Everyone else doesn't even have to take a sleep themed consequence. You could take the typical "twisted ankle" and say you got dizzy for a moment when the spell hit and you tripped. Since metagaming is a regular part of the DFRPG, I don't think there is a problem for the players knowing if their characters are facing a mook or something tougher. They will probably know anyway once the first mook is taken out by looking at him too hard.
-
Actually, the book does discuss having consequences disappear if it makes sense, even if they haven't taken their full recovery time. I seem to remember the books mainly discussing in game time taking such a leap that the consequence should be removed, such as a drunken consequence from a social encounter being removed after a month of in game time passing.
That got me thinking. The consequences you inflict on an enemy and the time they last are more a reward for the attacker then anything else. Reducing the duration of your attacks is only lessening you reward really. If you want to inflict the severe consequence "more asleep then awake" because you want this to be a soft sleep spell rather then a hard burn out your body sleep spell then heck why shouldn't you? Is it really that different from inflicting a drunk result on somebody, then having it disappear because a few days passed?
-
You could make it an offensive block. The target resists with endurance, and as long as the block is up, it can't do anything. Though a block that blocks everything should be able to be overcome by everything, which kind of makes this a weak option.
I like this and this is why: the person is asleep. Loud noise would wake them (block vs perception), any stress would wake them etc...
I'm not sure a sleep spell is an automatic take-out. I wouldn't think it would be ultra-useful in combat. It'd be great for sneaking past guards or other non-combat situations. It would have to be a VERY powerful sleep spell to make sure the person doesn't wake in the middle of everything going on in combat.
EDIT: YPU makes a good point regarding consequences as well
-
Hmm, if you go that route, a sleep spell is nothing to use in a conflict, it is something to prevent a conflict. So you could make it a "veil", putting someone to sleep, so you can sneak past them. Or you can make it a maneuver spell and tag it on a subsequent stealth roll for the same purpose.
-
I like this and this is why: the person is asleep. Loud noise would wake them (block vs perception), any stress would wake them etc...
I'm not sure a sleep spell is an automatic take-out. I wouldn't think it would be ultra-useful in combat. It'd be great for sneaking past guards or other non-combat situations. It would have to be a VERY powerful sleep spell to make sure the person doesn't wake in the middle of everything going on in combat.
EDIT: YPU makes a good point regarding consequences as well
Part of the whole issue I've been running into with modelling the spell is that a player wants to have a sleep-type spell which they can cast in combat, specifically to put a target to sleep during combat.
This came up during an actual game, and as a bit of handwaving, I let the player do this, albeit it took the player several castings before they could put the target to sleep so that they player could capture the target. The other part of this is that I didn't have the target (who is a significant, recurring NPC) take any consequences to avoid falling asleep and then being captured.
Went I sat down afterwards to determine how effective sleep spells would be in the future, that's when it appeared that sleep-type spells wouldn't be particularly effective, especially in combat. A sleep spell cast as a Maneuver on a target, so that a night watchman can get a Temporary Aspect of Sleepy, or as a sleep-based Block on actions seems workable.
But future attempts to use Evocation to put a target to sleep in a fight doesn't seem workable, except possibly against mooks. I just wanted to double check to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
-Cheers
-
It's not completely useless in combat. A grapple is a block against all actions and it's a viable way to neutralize someone. If you did a sleep as a block against all actions, and limit some actions - or skill uses(a gm can limit what weapons are useable in a grapple), as long as the block was high enough, it could work - at least temporarily. I just think it would have to have a fairly high block strength to be useable in combat as things such as loud noises would trigger Awareness checks that might overcome the block.
-
Just remember that you can never block defense rolls. That's an important design element in Fate.
-
Yeah. Which makes the block kind of weird because a sleeping person really shouldn't be able to dodge effectively. Although it'd be easy to say that an attack against the sleeping target automatically breaks the block, although I'd think there'd be some kind of advantage to attacking a sleeping target. You could always make a declaration that they were prone (since they were sleeping) and tag it for a bonus...I don't know...I guess it's not a smooth solution afterall.
-
Yeah. The fact that you can't penalize defense rolls (except by tagging an aspect to boost your attack) breaks verisimilitude a lot for me in Fate. However, it also keeps things from getting very broken.
You could place a grapple like block, then on your next turn maneuver to place "Deep Sleep" which could then be invoked to have them defend at Mediocre (treated as an ambush).
-
I'd say it would be possible. but *really* difficult. Because that's effectively soft-touch psychomancy, it's a very grey area within the Laws, and converting Thaumaturgy to Evocation always results in prohibitively high power costs. There's also the question of being able to control the magic sufficiently well to put someone to sleep temporarily, rather than permanently. we know Molly does it in GS, but other than that there's nothing to suggest it's possible when the target is resisiting.
The Gatekeeper does it in TC, but he's really strong, and has a lot of weird & possibly-unique tricks.
-
The Gatekeeper does it in TC, but he's really strong, and has a lot of weird & possibly-unique tricks.
The Gatekeeper certainly did some sort of mental attack in TC which put several people to sleep, with Harry (just barely) managing to raise his mental defenses to fend off the sleep compulsion. However, the Gatekeeper might well has used some form of Thaumaturgy (psychomancy?) to launch the attack, since Harry didn't initially realize the attack was underway.
-Cheers
-
Another thing to consider with the sleep spell idea, is that magic cannot change the laws of physics etc. A sleep spell would definitely be usable out side of conflict, but in combat? Not a chance. To make someone fall asleep you'd have to remove enough oxygen from their blood to put their brain into sleep mode, if you wanted to do this through physiology. That would require some knowledge of physiology. The only other way I can think of to make someone sleep during a conflict (when their brain is very much active and alert) is to break one of the Laws of Magic and use mental suggestion. Remember your spells still have to be explainable to real world physics like how Harry does it in the books.
A sleep spell in my games would be a delicate thing to achieve, not something you could do in a conflict without taking them out with stress hits.