Somebody must ask Jim about the backstory to this one(click to show/hide)
Somebody must ask Jim about the backstory to this one(click to show/hide)
Eb took up the Blackstaff in 1884-1885 somewhere in there. The Blackstaff chooses his successor.
Jim had his Reddit podcast Q&A around the time he wrote Fist Full of Warlocks and said this:Near as I can tell the story is in 1877. So almost a decade, but not a terribly long time. (As that appears to be when Earp and Bat were working as deputies in Dodge city.)
Which is only a year or 3 after the events of Fist Full of Warlocks. Could be related to your question.
Thanks, Serack. I forgot about this, cause I had the New Madrid earthquake of 1811 as a starting point for Eb's Blackstaff career in mind. :)
It really fits too well to be coincidence.
Near as I can tell the story is in 1877. So almost a decade, but not a terribly long time. (As that appears to be when Earp and Bat were working as deputies in Dodge city.)
From wikipedia.(click to show/hide)
Wait, were we just assuming he'd done New Madrid all along? Somehow I'd got the impression it was one of the ones he admitted to Harry in BR (along with Krakatoa and Tunguska).
Edit: Krakatoa was 1883. So I guess either he pretty much used the Blackstaff immediately upon taking it up to cause the eruption (and it's within the margin of error to Jim's ca. 1884-85 answer), or the eruption broke both the laws on time travel and collateral damage of mortal lives.
I have a theory that the Blackstaff can removed ALL black magic taint from it's user. Even taint that was gained prior to the Blackstaff's acquisition.
Therefore, it's possible that Eb did some horrendeous things before acquiring the BS, and the BS cleaned him up aftwards.
I've never spent a lot of time reading up on the Wild West, so when I beta'd the story, I looked up information on Earp and Dodge City, and landed on the "Dodge City War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_City_War)" as the timing for the short story, since it pretty closely resembles Earp's description of the tensions in the city/saloon. Hence my estimate of the timing between the two events.It looks like some of the history is fudged. Jim changed Luke Short's name to Bill Short if that's right. While the story seems to match up with the one I saw.
Wait, were we just assuming he'd done New Madrid all along? Somehow I'd got the impression it was one of the ones he admitted to Harry in BR (along with Krakatoa and Tunguska).
"Casaverde," Ebenezar said, his voice shaking. "Tunguska. New Madrid. Krakatoa. A dozen more. God help me, a dozen more at least."
Supposedly laid down by Merlin weren't they? Technicality, fire started with magic burns without magical interference, so perhaps she didn't consider collateral from an ongoing fire part of the 1st law? Like drowning someone by immobilizing them for instance? 'I put you in a burning building, but I didn't kill you!'But hasn't it been stated that if someone uses a blast of wind or force to knock someone back, and they fall off a roof, it's still a violation of the 1st Law?
It was:I think I like the idea he did New Madrid on his own. I've started to connect the blackstaff with things falling to the planet(the classic 'calamity from the skies' trope like in FF7) but New Madrid was one that just didn't add up, being an earthquake. If he didn't yet have the blackstaff though? That should allow it keep to the theme of dropping things from offworld as it's big finisher.
Either Ebenezar got the Blackstaff "on loan" before actually taking it up, it's time-shenanigans, a different New Madrid incident, or just a Jim slip.
or just a Jim slip.There are no Jim slips. It is our sacred duty to come up with a good explanation for those. :P
I've started to connect the blackstaff with things falling to the planet(the classic 'calamity from the skies' trope like in FF7) but New Madrid was one that just didn't add up, being an earthquake.
Krakatoa was a big volcano, so really only Casaverde and Tunguska were "bomb it from orbit" type events.Mmm, I thought there was at least one more?
So it seems to me McCoy laid down the cloak and picked up the staff as part of the same general event.
Well Krakatoa was really big and is around the time Jim said Ebenezer first picked up the Blackstaff. It's not impossible that the previous Blackstaff died during the event and that Ebenezer's first act upon picking up the Blackstaff (in desperation?) was causing the boom in a last ditch effort to stop whatever it was.
I have not read the story yet.
That being said, does it mention Hogs Hollow? Is it possible that this trip to the West is when Eb discovered where he ends up settling down on his farm?
Hmm. By the turn of the Century, McCoy doesn't seem to be a Warden any more, according to the letters he and Pietrovitch wrote to each other.
In 1889 McCoy says that Pietrovich isn't under investigation, and in 1902 he says that he isn't speaking in official capacity. But that might be Blackstaff McCoy speaking, and not Warden McCoy.
But there are absolutely no mentions of him being Captain McCoy, which I feel would be relevant.
So it seems to me McCoy laid down the cloak and picked up the staff as part of the same general event.
I feel like I'm missing something here, and I didn't know that was even possible unless possibly it's from one of the graphic novels...
But hasn't it been stated that if someone uses a blast of wind or force to knock someone back, and they fall off a roof, it's still a violation of the 1st Law?
I dug it. It's a little predictable (No more than you'd expect from a prequel story.) Luccio is a bad ass, I always love getting another creature featured
The idea of using something as a horse that's, mythologically speaking, a close cousin to Jenny Greenteeth was just ... disturbing...
Let's look at a similar situation.I find that ridiculous and unlikely. There comes a point where the magical fire becomes the same as regular fire. At the same time if Little Chicago exploded while Harry was gone and his landlady died I'd see that as a violation due to the increased negligence involved. But it sounds more like the ward issue(both do.)
Harry walks in and uses his little candle lighting spell to light a bunch of candles.
Then, one gets knocked over.
The place burns down and kill some mortals.
Harry is TECHNICALLY guilty of murder, but there would be no council, or cosmic consequences.
Grevane is Kemmler's disciple, he is at first called the "British Guy" in the story. So who is this guy? He escaped with Kemmler, what happened to him? We know what happened to Kemmler eventually, but not Grevane.. The first thought that came into my head is he might be the person/creature with the British accent napping in crystal that Harry was talking to on Demonreach in Skin Game.. The other possibility and a very strong one at that, is he is Cowl.. Disciple of Kemmler, his apprentice you might say, it fits very well.
Grevane is one of the (non-Cowl) necromancers that Harry faces in Dead Beat. IIRC , Ramirez shoots him.
Besides Luccio had a good take on the Warlocks position (upstairs) and where the rest of the people are (downstairs) so evacuating them and avoiding causalities was possible IMO, also I think it is implied that the Wardens have a certain immunity when fulfilling their duties, they definitely don't get beheaded if a Warlock dies resisting arrest.
Grevane is one of the (non-Cowl) necromancers that Harry faces in Dead Beat. IIRC, Ramirez shoots him.
Ramirez beheads him. Samurai Master style, the cut doesn't make his head fall off, and Grevane is so crazy at this point that he tries to continue to fight because he believes death can't touch him.ROFL! I thought he just severed the flesh, not the severed the whole neck?
Turn out believe isn't everything in the Dresdenverse.
- It is also odd that an experienced Wizard like Kemmler would leave blood and skin on his bonds when escaping, a quick fire spell to burn the ropes was too much of a hassle? Feels like an obvious trap.Well, we didn't see what happened next. ;)
- It honestly feels a bit unrealistic that a vanilla sheriff can shoot down a 40+ sized horde of the Undead, especially with Wild West era weapons, those things weren't known for range and precision. Did they had even rifling back then?
Another interesting thing was that Luccio said the zombies weren't very high quality. This indicates that Grevane was still new in the business of Necromancy. Or that the group felt confident enough to use the incident as a training experience for one of the new recruits.
They had rifling in the 1700s. I can't think of any Wild West era guns that weren't rifled. Except for shotguns, of course. Handguns especially were rifled because it's easier to do on a shorter barrel.
He says he is a vanilla mortal. The only supernatural about him is that he is a Venatori, so he knows of the supernatural but is not part of it.It was a secret society so their survival depended on how seriously the white council took them and how good they were at secrecy. The world is a big place and it is not like the white council had a lot of wardens running around, sending only one warden without backup into the unknown is not something a police force would normally do.
He had some Wards on the cell but either someone else did them for him or they were ritualistic in nature, still, the only thing they did was detect magic use and make a sound, so something probably any Vanilla can do with the right knowledge. He later confirms that he can't do anything against spells aimed at him, so he is just a knowledgeable Vanilla.
Something else I find interesting:(click to show/hide)
Seems odd to me that the White Council allows open opposition to them, even by lightweights. Luccio says that the Thule Gesellschaft has Sorceress in them later on, so they would fall under the authority of the Council. In the supernatural world of politics, aperance is a big thing (even more so than in the vanilla world), allowing some would-be-sorcerers to be in opposition, even if they don't break the Laws feels unrealistic.
Let's look at a similar situation.
Harry walks in and uses his little candle lighting spell to light a bunch of candles.
Then, one gets knocked over.
The place burns down and kill some mortals.
Harry is TECHNICALLY guilty of murder, but there would be no council, or cosmic consequences.
I think it's more about the letter of the law and the way the magic is applied. If I cast fire on your face I have to believe in it and my right to do so for it to work, and thus I have killed with magic and broken the first rule.
If I cast fire on a candle and then use said candle to burn your bed I have broken no law of magic. I simply lit a candle. The rest was physics.
Moral I'm still guilty. Same as stabing someone through the neck with a sword. But by the law I'm clear
First impressions after reading it:
I liked it, I prefer a logical and reasonable protagonist, so Luccio's POV was a nice change compared to Dresden. Overall it was as enjoyable as one can expect from a short story, and I hope we will get "For A Few Warlocks More" soon enough.
I'd have liked to see a bit more talk from Kemmler, he seemed like a nice guy.
Now on to observations and problems:
- Anyone else notices that the pentagram the Necromancers were using was of the same design Nicodemus used in "Small Favour"? Is it just coincident? It might be just the go to pentagram for Warlocks, or maybe it is hinting at a connection?
- I see many people have a problem with Luccio considering burning down the place, I don't really agree.
First off it would probably fall under not breaking the Law since once summoned fire is fire, so it would be vanilla arson that killed people not Law braking here.
Besides Luccio had a good take on the Warlocks position (upstairs) and where the rest of the people are (downstairs) so evacuating them and avoiding causalities was possible IMO, also I think it is implied that the Wardens have a certain immunity when fulfilling their duties, they definitely don't get beheaded if a Warlock dies resisting arrest.
- Oh my god! Magical Glasses! I have been saying for years Dresden should get something like that
- It honestly feels a bit unrealistic that a vanilla sheriff can shoot down a 40+ sized horde of the Undead, especially with Wild West era weapons, those things weren't known for range and precision. Did they had even rifling back then?
- While I understand sending the bulk of you forces to the Sherif Office it feels unrealistic that Grevane wouldn't keep a few undead on the roof
- It is also odd that an experienced Wizard like Kemmler would leave blood and skin on his bonds when escaping, a quick fire spell to burn the ropes was too much of a hassle? Feels like an obvious trap.
I think it's more about the letter of the law and the way the magic is applied. If I cast fire on your face I have to believe in it and my right to do so for it to work, and thus I have killed with magic and broken the first rule.If you use a gust of wind to blow someone off a roof, you're guilty under the Law (and tainted metaphysically), even though technically it's the gravity doing the killing.
If I cast fire on a candle and then use said candle to burn your bed I have broken no law of magic. I simply lit a candle. The rest was physics.
Moral I'm still guilty. Same as stabing someone through the neck with a sword. But by the law I'm clear
First I thought that it was Page (as the new recruit) that is doing the summoning but he is just the drummer. Later in the fight, Grevane redirects some zombies to the roof to attack her, so he was the summoner.What you're missing is that this is Wyatt Earp. Wyatt Earp. He's a literal legend. Documentaries are made about him. He's taught about in American schools. Having him be anything other than strictly epic would ruin the cameo and feel off to anyone with enough knowledge of both American History and Alt-history genre savvy. So no, it doesn't give necromancers a bad name. It holds true to the legends of the source material in the same way making Odin terrifyingly powerful does.
I guess he wanted to be able to throw some evocation around as well if needed? Since in Dead Beat, he summons full powered Zombies and it takes up to much of his energy that he can only attack with mundane weapons besides that.
Okay, still feels unrealistic that a Vanilla Sheriff mowed down a 40+ hoard of zombies, especially when for a good part of it, he was out on the street and the hoard was reportedly approaching from both sides, at some point he should have been surrounded. Feels to nice of an ending simply, no one got hurt, and Luccio has a hot trail to pursue Kemmler (although that one is probably a trap).
This story gives Necromancers a bad rap!
What you're missing is that this is Wyatt Earp. Wyatt Earp. He's a literal legend. Documentaries are made about him. He's taught about in American schools. Having him be anything other than strictly epic would ruin the cameo and feel off to anyone with enough knowledge of both American History and Alt-history genre savvy. So no, it doesn't give necromancers a bad name. It holds true to the legends of the source material in the same way making Odin terrifyingly powerful does.Yep, missing that. He's the inspiration for pretty much any badass gunslinger to come after.
Yep, missing that. He's the inspiration for pretty much any badass gunslinger to come after.
Well, except for the man with no name, that is. :DHe is the man with no name, he just stopped using one so he wouldn't grow a huge mantle around it ;) see Marty Robins, Big Iron.
The idea of using something as a horse that's, mythologically speaking, a close cousin to Jenny Greenteeth was just ... disturbing...
The only thing I'm sad about regarding this story was that I was hoping to find out why sheriff badges are five-pointed stars inside a circle (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,15416.msg727864.html#msg727864).Often they're not. Sometimes they're 6 or 7 pointed stars, and often extend past the circle, rather than are confined within it.
No dying curses from the bad guys? It seems too convenient. Also I clearly remember Harry several times thinking that a bullet is very efficient against dying curses but that is a modern concept that most old wizards in the Council didn't gatther. Still, Luccio had it very clear in this story.
Any thought on Luccio's sword? There are two quotes regarding it:(click to show/hide)
And later during the fight:(click to show/hide)
None of this quotes make it explicit if this is already the Enchantment Cutting Sword she will be making for all the Wardens later. The way it is used here, it could be a simple focus she uses to fight.
Anyway, it would suggest that either Luccio was an outliner as a Warden using a sword, which later gave here the idea to make the enchanted swords which all Wardens would carry.
Or there is a tradition of Warden using sword regardless if they are enchanted or not, which begs the question why didn't the new Baby Wardens and Harry got normal swords.
Luccio isn't the usual crusty old wizard in the books either. She's very open-minded about modern technology. Her hobby is reading about computers, after all.
I think that might actually be the reason she made Captain in the first place. She wasn't particular about how the job got done, she did it.
Isn't that mostly due to Stuart Lake's heavily fictionalised "biography" of Earp?I said Legend for a reason. In Dresden legends are truth. Even more recent ones.
In reality, he was an occasional law enforcer and gambler who was accused of murder after the O.K. Corral shootout and got off because he hired a famous defence attorney. Doesn't really scream "zombie killer" material to me.
Or there is a tradition of Warden using sword regardless if they are enchanted or not, which begs the question why didn't the new Baby Wardens and Harry got normal swords.
Harry already had several swords (his magnetism focus, and I believe a few ordinary ones) before he got drafted.He only had the earth-magic Cane sword of his own, unless you count the Swords in his keeping. Murphy had a katana, and the Carpenters obviously are well-armed but those are the swordsfolk on the good-guy side.
Isn't that mostly due to Stuart Lake's heavily fictionalised "biography" of Earp?
In reality, he was an occasional law enforcer and gambler who was accused of murder after the O.K. Corral shootout and got off because he hired a famous defence attorney. Doesn't really scream "zombie killer" material to me.
He only had the earth-magic Cane sword of his own, unless you count the Swords in his keeping.
I thought there was a mention of camoflaging the holy swords in a bucket of mundane ones. Might have been props from his dad's stage magic rather than actual weapons though...I think it was an Umbrella stand. So with umbrellas, and Canes. And the like.
I think it was an Umbrella stand. So with umbrellas, and Canes. And the like.
On the other hand, Capiorcorpus wasn't in a hurry when choosing that particular body.Also possible that the necromantic abilities are less specific to innate talents, I suppose. She hopped a few times in DB, but only to carefully chosen host (the prof and then the Grad student) or a known Council Wizard. By GS she was far more desperate and so presumably far less picky.
So either that body has Wizard level talent, which means at some point Luccio can regain all her skills, just reskinned for the new body, or there are ways to deal with lower talented bodies if you are a Wizards soul with higher skills stuck in them.
And Luccio could discover those potentially too.
On the other hand, Capiorcorpus wasn't in a hurry when choosing that particular body.
So either that body has Wizard level talent, which means at some point Luccio can regain all her skills, just reskinned for the new body, or there are ways to deal with lower talented bodies if you are a Wizards soul with higher skills stuck in them.
And Luccio could discover those potentially too.
He's also been in multiple gunfights and walked away from all of them without a scratch. Literally immuned to bullet.That only prooves he was a better killer not he was a better man. A bit of wiki reading leaves a lot of questions about the man.
I said Legend for a reason. In Dresden legends are truth. Even more recent ones.
I took it as the adjusting was hers to do mostly. As literally different bodies, different Engines of magic are good at different things. Not that you can't train better but I think she said her new body lacked potential to do so.
That only prooves he was a better killer not he was a better man.
A bit of wiki reading leaves a lot of questions about the man.
But it is not about the real man, it is about the story that grew around him. The real men behind the stories are often disappointing.
Charlemagne was not a nice man.
But in a combat situation, 'better killer' is often what you need.
Successful rulers and leaders often are not. Sometimes you can't be both nice and successful in politics and war. It's not hard to find examples in history of kings and rulers who were kind, decent...and ineffectual or worse.
Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Tamerlane, Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, ...
I believe that is why the moniker of "Great" is earned, Elizabeth, Catherine, Frederick, Alfred, etc.... but alas they are few and far between.
He's also been in multiple gunfights and walked away from all of them without a scratch. Literally immuned to bullet.
Well, fwiw, the difference between the moniker of "Great" vs "Terrible" is usually in the eye of the translator.
I believe that is why the moniker of "Great" is earned, Elizabeth, Catherine, Frederick, Alfred, etc.... but alas they are few and far between.
After all, He Who Must Not Be Named did great things - Terrible, yes, but great.Yes. Kemmler was in this story.
Successful rulers and leaders often are not. Sometimes you can't be both nice and successful in politics and war. It's not hard to find examples in history of kings and rulers who were kind, decent...and ineffectual or worse.
Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Tamerlane, Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, ...
Genocidal maniacs all of them and more. Charlemagne has a myth that is far from his true personality as we know it from history.
In-universe, Nic even acknowledged at one point that Marcone would have been a successful ruler in times gone by.
Um...no. Those names don't go together. None of them were necessarily nice, but putting Napolean and Caesar in the same category as Hitler and Stalin just doesn't work.They all shared the same appreciation for human life.
Atrocities were committed everywhere throughout history. When the First Crusade got to Jerusalem, they say the City ran ankle-deep in blood. Alexander the Great brutally marched his Army conquering everything in sight. The British slaughtered, divided and enslaved countless to build their Empire. The treatment of Native Americans by Settlers. Etc, Etc.Hitler and Stalin had modern technology, communication and organisation at their side. Unlike Rome however they lost and we do not have to listen to their mythology.
W
That's War. That's Empire. It's a terrible, evil thing. But Napoleon and Caesar (bastards though they are) aren't really comparable with the acts of Hitler and the Holocaust, or Stalin's purges.
Hitler and Stalin had modern technology, communication and organisation at their side. Unlike Rome however they lost and we do not have to listen to their mythology.Remember, we see a difference between what a ruler does to others and what they do their own people still. Ceaser and Napoleon didn't commit genocide within their borders on nearly tbe scale Hitler and Stalin did.(Although I think at points Rome did.) That's the difference people see. And it's a tough difference to argue against. In the end I'm not sure the difference matters. But to our culture it does. But you're arguing the wrong thing.
They were innovators and though their crimes were not new they were on a scale unheard of before their time.
Rome was similar. Everything they did was known before the romans came but they killed and enslaved on a scale and efficiency never heard of before. They were innovators too.
But I think I wandered away from my original argument here. They were all horrible people who did far more even than most people in their situation and even in their time would have done. The difference that was important for my argument is that some of them had build a mythology around them.
And that mythology still has power today over peoples mind.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/opinion/sunday/stalinist-nostalgia-in-vladimir-putins-russia.html
Culture must be broken on me because I never thought that, not even once.Absolutely.
Hitler and Stalin had modern technology, communication and organisation at their side. Unlike Rome however they lost and we do not have to listen to their mythology.
They were innovators and though their crimes were not new they were on a scale unheard of before their time.
Rome was similar. Everything they did was known before the romans came but they killed and enslaved on a scale and efficiency never heard of before. They were innovators too.
They also enforced peace over the Mediterranean World for four centuries, with occasional failures, but far more peace and prosperity than had been known in the previous centuries of the Hellenistic Age. Yes, the Romans were ruthless, and sometimes brutal, but so were their rivals and enemies. The Romans brought a rule of law and if they were slavers, they were also civilizers. You can't readily divide up the good and the bad because they were all tangled together.
Napoleon, likewise, has little in common with Hitler or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or Mao, or their ilk. Neither the Romans nor Napoleon made the error of thinking they could rewrite human nature, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. tried to do exactly that.
(Napoleon actually brought an end to that kind of thinking in the French Revolution.)
Sooo...what were we talking about?Wyatt Earp's historical persona, Legend Vs Fact.
Wyatt Earp's historical persona, Legend Vs Fact.And more in general:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1038453/The-French-Fuhrer-Genocidal-Napoleon-barbaric-Hitler-historian-claims.html
Yes. Kemmler was in this story.
Humans making myths about historical persons
The differences between their real and mythical personality
Humans believing the myth, the power of myth in real life
What is true in the dresdenverse, the myth or the real version
Was anyone else underwhelmed by Kemmler? Did not seem very impressive, or formidable in the least. Didn't set him apart from a run of the mill warlock.Kemmler was younger and less powerful, decades later he was much more more dangerous. Look how more powerful Harry had become in a bit over a decade.
Kemmler probably foundgood sponsorsBob.