Nemesis needed to get Lea before she could tell about Maeve. Mab wanted to know about her enemies so she made her fortress seem more vulnerable to invite an attack. They probably thought she was not there but she monitored everything.This, mostly. I'm not sure she deliberately made herself seem vulnerable. The attack could have been a surprise for her. But I guess freeing Lea before she can tell what she knew about Nemesis was a pretty good motive, one she could have anticipated. So it's possible.
Not just the same color. Mab's eyes. The statue winked at me.
The dot that Ive long wanted to connect was Marcone to Mab, via the nebulous events of PG. There's got to be some reason she involved herself in SmF, and the best I have so far is the idea of a back-room deal between Vadderung and Mab, purely one asking help to defend his favorite pet project.I'm rereading SmF right now and that's exactly what I was wondering about: Why did Mab bother? Ok, her Accords were broken. But so what, someone who can't defend themselves doesn't have any business joining the club. Marcone must have earned a favor from her in some way. It makes sense for him to collect a couple of solids before joining the Accords.
I'm rereading SmF right now and that's exactly what I was wondering about: Why did Mab bother? Ok, her Accords were broken. But so what, someone who can't defend themselves doesn't have any business joining the club.
What value is the accords if the only enforcement is the victim defending themselves? That is the definition of a toothless agreement.That makes sense as an official story, but both Mab and Titania were moving on the Board before the initial kidnapping took place, so there has to be hidden motivation, no?
The value in the accords is that community of supernatural agents enforces a code of conduct. In other words, people who break the laws are punished. Mab created the accord for a reason, so she has a good reason to act to punish those who break the accord.
If that is not good enough, the second reason is just as good. The accords are an agreement - a bargain. Mab keeps her word and the agreement binds her to punish those who break it. That is winter law.
And if that is not good enough, the third reasons is helpful. Mab is limited in her ability to act. One of the "loopholes" in these limits are the bargains Mab makes. By breaking the accords, Mab is freed to act. She must certainly act in accordance to her obligations in the accords, but that still leaves her a lot of flexibility in how she chooses to act. For example, in this example she gained additional benefits in training Harry, earned a debt from Marcone, enhanced her reputation, and blocked the actions of a denarian who was almost certainly involved in the assault on Arctus Tor. That's a lot of benefit should would not have been able to achieve without the breach in the accords.
These are all power players with intelligence operations and agendas. I suspect they are certainly trying to maximize opportunities, anticipate threats and so forth -- and occasionally blindsided by the actions of a clever or lucky participant in the Great Game. I am sure they work constantly to create conditions that allow them to act effectively when necessary.There's being responsive, and then there's being precognitive (which Im
Just to make things more difficult to comprehend, there's a question no one seems to be asking and one that really needs to be answered in order to understand what actually happened. Why did Mab order her forces to the border with Summer in the first place? I used to think Mab made a deal not to attack the Red Court and help prevent Summer from doing so, but if this was the case, why did Maeve make it possible for Summer to attack the Reds? Do you see the contradiction here? Jim has been holding out some vital information which would allow us to untangle this puzzle.There's actually a pretty straightforward explanation for that one imo. She was biding her time and waiting for a better opportunity to strike back. And she needed more information about the various players. The Red Court provided a clear provocation and everyone expected the Faeries to strike back immediately. Including the RC probably. So Mab had good reason to assume it was a trap. And she didn't want Summer to fall for it either, because Nemesis is the biggest threat out there and the RC was obviously in league with it somehow (all these Outsiders).
There's something really odd thing about the attack on Arctis Tor.See if this theory helps.
* Mab moves the bulk of her forces to the border with Summer, which pins Summer's forces in place to defend against a possible incursion from Winter which prevents Summer from retaliating against the Red Court for it's incursion into Faerie. (I'll get back to Mab later.)
* The Black Council appears to be in league with Outsiders.
* Somebody called up Outsiders to help the Red Court in it's battle with the White Council. Presumably these rogue wizards are members of the Black Council or at least it's magical foot soldiers.
* Nemfected Maeve works to gain Lily's trust. She helps Lily carry out a plan which allows Summer to strike a blow against the Red Court. This plan come to fruition because of Harry's assault on Arctis Tor to rescue Molly.
* The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor preceded Harry's rescue mission and even though it killed off Mab's troll bodyguard, overall that attack failed.
I don't think the Black Council attack was an attempt to free Nemfected Lea or to take out Mab. I don't think one denarian; even their best magic user, was enough to threaten Mab in her stronghold. (I'm assuming Thorned Namshiel had help, but he was the strongest player on the enemy team.) I think the attack was an attempt to do what Lily and Maeve later succeeded in doing, allow Summer to attack the Red Court. Specifically, I think they wanted Mab to recall her forces from the border with Summer so the Seelie Court could attack the Reds. I think the Black Council decided to nerf to Red Court so the war could drag on, and this would slowly degrade both the Reds and the White Council. I don't think they wanted either side to have any easy victory. Remember that in Dead Beat the White Council was in pretty bad shape. I suspect the Black Council and it's Outsider (allies? overlords?) buddies saw the Red Court much as Nicodemus did, "They're parasites who are inconvenient in the short term, dangerous in the middle distance, and fatal to any long-range plan."
The alternative is say that Nemfected Maeve was willing to allow Lily and the Summer Court to have their moment and help the White Council in it's war with the Reds, all so Maeve could completely gain Lily's confidence so that one day Maeve could bring about the downfall of both Summer and Winter. I suppose that's possible, but then it leaves the Black Council attack on Arctis Tor unexplained unless you really believe the BC thought they could storm Arctis Tor, which I find implausible. However, either explanation; my nerf the Red Court or Maeve's palace intrigue hypothesis, tells us the Black Council had no problem stabbing the Red Court in the back when it suited them. One more thing to consider is that nerfing the Red Court and helping Maeve worm her way into Lily confidence could have become duel goals to be carried out simultaneously. It could have went down this way; the Black Council attack fails to get Mab to draw her forces back from the border so a new and improved plan succeeds and helps nemfected Maeve at same time.
Just to make things more difficult to comprehend, there's a question no one seems to be asking and one that really needs to be answered in order to understand what actually happened. Why did Mab order her forces to the border with Summer in the first place? I used to think Mab made a deal not to attack the Red Court and help prevent Summer from doing so, but if this was the case, why did Maeve make it possible for Summer to attack the Reds? Do you see the contradiction here? Jim has been holding out some vital information which would allow us to untangle this puzzle.
P.S. You know, there's another explanation for why nemfected Maeve was willing to help Lily, but right now I'm too tired to type it out at the moment. I'll do it tomorrow.
I find it hard to believe that Mab would think that Summer would work with Outsiders. I think she knows better.Technically it happened already, in SK. From a coldly tactical standpoint she cant count on her allies Motivations if the Enemy can just Replace them.
Technically it happened already, in SK. From a coldly tactical standpoint she cant count on her allies Motivations if the Enemy can just Replace them.
I'm distinguishing between working with, and being nemfected.I still dont think it matters from the POV of Mab's tactical assessment. The difference between a Coconspirator and a Possessed Puppet makes no difference, Both are equal threats. She already knows that Nemesis infiltrated the Summer royalty, and has no way to ascertain how far that Nemfection Spread. Once that happened she can no longer Plan based on what Summer /would' do, only what they Can Do, apparently up to and including Lying.
I think Mabs reaction to the attack can be summed up with this gladiator quote
Falco:
I have been told of a certain sea snake which has a very unusual method of attracting its prey. It will lie at the bottom of the ocean as if wounded. Then its enemies will approach, and yet it will lie quite still. And then its enemies will take little bites of it, and yet it remains still.
Commodus:
So, we will lie still, and let our enemies come to us and nibble.
I'm distinguishing between working with, and being nemfected.
To clarify, I think Mab thought that Summer might have been infected.
She may have felt Titania was infected, but that does not explain why she piled everyone in winter on the border of summer. That action effectively prevented either from participating in the fighting.
Mab could have achieved the same objective by having summer and winter bring equal forces to the battlefield while still keeping back a substantial force to defend winter. Winter is still protected from betrayal by summer, but she also targets the red court which attacked her borders -- and is clearly allied with outsiders. Yet she did not do this. She had some clear reason to keep summer and winter out of the fighting. A reason important enough that she was willing to let the white council fall.
Yet this compelling reason did not prevent her from standing by while Dresden brough summer fire to the heart of winter. No way that little butterfly of summer power was missed by Mab. Which had a huge effect on her borders.
Which means she
a) was testing summer's reaction
b) was compelled to do what she did (block summer and winter from going to war) by some promise or debt.
c) she was testing Maeve
"a" is a pretty weak reason as it is a pretty unreliable test. Even if summer attacked winter in full force, it would not accomplish much. So a corrupted winter would do little. "C" is a possibility especially as Small Favor was after this attack, but what about Maeve's behavior would reveal she was infected to Mab. After all, if Mab was insane, then Maeve's actions would have been loyal to Winter.
B is the easiest explanation - but that is still a pretty big favor.
We cannot forget that Time was messed with during this period.The only idea I ever thought of was after Nic mentioned survival instincts in SmF, it wanted to survive Lea, and to escape becoming a permanent icesicle in the garden. It was an assault to facilitate an escape measure for a captured vip?
We suspect Maeve of doing so, but don't know for sure.
Personally, I think Maeve Sped up time in and around AT for the battle. By the time Harry and his invaders arrived, time was flowing normally. When Harry and team were leaving, Maeve had to slow it down again, to make up and bring balance back in the time-stream.
Now why was AT attacked, I like the theory of releasing Leah before she spilled about Nemfecting Maeve, but really, I don't think we have enough information yet to really guess.
It makes more sense for Maeve to have messed with time, this being the first major clue (that we know of) that Maeve was Nemfected, from Mab's perspective.Only thinking about what slowing time actually achieved against the reds and their outsider allies, I'm not sure why that would make Maeve suspect? Mab and Aurora seem to understand both must move in tandem and how to manipulate that fact for more indirect attacks on their mutual enemies. Where as Maeve is bungling in the dark most, if not all of the time. To put it bluntly, it was too good of a move on the board for it to be her idea.
Only thinking about what slowing time actually achieved against the reds and their outsider allies, I'm not sure why that would make Maeve suspect? Mab and Aurora seem to understand both must move in tandem and how to manipulate that fact for more indirect attacks on their mutual enemies. Where as Maeve is bungling in the dark most, if not all of the time. To put it bluntly, it was too good of a move on the board for it to be her idea.
But not for Nemesis.It harmed N far more than helped either way, if Mab did it she one upped N, If maeve did it then that's what caught Mab's attention from maeve, working time against her in correlation with summer forces.
It harmed N far more than helped either way, if Mab did it she one upped N, If maeve did it then that's what caught Mab's attention from maeve, working time against her in correlation with summer forces.
Absolutely. Meaning that Nemesis made an error.Which did not matter that much because if Lea would tell Mab anyway if Nemesis did not get her out. This was a last desperate attempt to keep her main asset hidden and it failed.
Which did not matter that much because if Lea would tell Mab anyway if Nemesis did not get her out. This was a last desperate attempt to keep her main asset hidden and it failed.Lea didn't run to Mab, she attempted to overthrow her.
Lea running to Mab was a gamechanger.
Lea didn't run to Mab, she attempted to overthrow her.Somewhere it's said that Lea turned herself in to Mab.
Somewhere it's said that Lea turned herself in to Mab.Mmm? Going purely off of what Mab says in DB and Lea says when Harry see's her next(in CH?) it's heavily implied that Lea confronted Mab with the intention of defying her outright.
Mmm? Going purely off of what Mab says in DB and Lea says when Harry see's her next(in CH?) it's heavily implied that Lea confronted Mab with the intention of defying her outright.That's one interpretation. Another is that Lea sought to circumnavigate the normal chain of command, thus inadvertently offending Mab and challenging her authority.
That's one interpretation. Another is that Lea sought to circumnavigate the normal chain of command, thus inadvertently offending Mab and challenging her authority.Would have to be a woj.
But somewhere, in one of the books or in a WoJ, it's said that she turned herself over to Mab to be healed.
Would have to be a woj.I'm 80% certain it's in one of the books, but I don't know which one. I had trouble finding it previously, but others have done so.
Susan arched an eyebrow and looked from me to my godmother. "You have no shame about it at all, do you?"
"Shame, child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should
be." She waved her hand. "It was shame that drove me to my queen, to beseech her aid." Her long, delicate fingers idly moved to the streaks of white in her otherwise flawless red tresses.
"But she showed me the way back to myself, through exquisite pain, and now I am here to
watch over my dear godson--and the rest of you, as long as it is quite convenient."
"Spooky death Sidhe lady," Molly said. "Now upgraded to spooky, crazy death Sidhe lady."
It is actually in changes:Context implied in the greater page?
"For what reason have you detained her?"Guess Mab's a liar now ??? unless we can agree it's far most likely that she did both, confronted Mab and like Sith tried to, managed to break free enough to let her own desire, felt through shame be known.
"Because I do not tolerate challenges to my authority,"... "Certain event's had convinced your Godmother she was no longer bound by my word and will..."
Context implied in the greater page? Guess Mab's a liar now ??? unless we can agree it's far most likely that she did both, confronted Mab and like Sith tried to, managed to break free enough to let her own desire, felt through shame be known.Mab did not say who challenged her authority :)
“Lea,” I said. “What has happened to you? How long have you been a Sidhe-sicle?”With hindsight I translate "What stalks us all" as Nemesis. Lea tried to overcome it herself but failed. Ashamed she went to her queen.
Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too
arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways.”
“She’s had you locked up in your own private iceberg for more than a year?” I shook my head. “Godmother, you look like you fell out of a crazy tree and hit every branch on the way down.”
Mab did not say who challenged her authority :)No, it says she thought she didn't have to answer to her, that's challenging authority, trust me, I know. nice theory though, look it even has a premise to base an inference :)
From Proven Guilty:With hindsight I translate "What stalks us all" as Nemesis. Lea tried to overcome it herself but failed. Ashamed she went to her queen.
No, it says she thought she didn't have to answer to her, that's challenging authority, trust me, I know. nice theory though, look it even has a premise to base an inference :)I tend to give more weight to Lea's words here because Lea is Harry's godmother and has less to hide and more to teach and very important her words are less ambivalent.
I have no doubt Mab was referring to Lea when she said "she" challenged her authority. But a challenge to Mab's authority does not require open rebellion. Lea attempting to act without Mab's consent is a challenge of her authority. Lea acting in Mab's interest in a way Mab wouldn't approve of is a challenge of her authority.
The text tells us Lea tried to do something against an enemy too powerful for her, she turned herself in to Mab, and Mab helped heal her while reasserting her authority over such things.
With hindsight I translate "What stalks us all" as Nemesis. Lea tried to overcome it herself but failed. Ashamed she went to her queen.
I think Griffyn612 has the right idea. What I want to think about further is what Arjan brought up, what did Lea mean by "what stalks us all."You can make a distinction between what Lea did on her own and what Lea did under influence of Nemesis but one does not have to. Everything Lea did under influence of Nemesis she still did and some of that was a chalenge of Mab's authority.
This reading makes sense to me, and strikes me as the most obvious interpretation. Lea tried to struggle against Nemesis on her own, but was unable to win the fight without help. But the struggle alone doesn't seem like the offense that Mab spoke of in Changes. So what was the action that Nemesis was attempting to cause Lea to perform? A simple, small action of verbal challenge, a simple questioning of Mab's orders would probably be enough to fit the bill, that's most likely.
But what if we think bigger? What if "I thought I could overcome what stalks us all" refers to death? That phrase is certainly a common motif of death. And the goal of vanquishing death is already held by Cowl (according to Kumori anyway), who provided the athame to Lea via Bianca. Lea would be in a position to potentially make some type of move against Mother Winter, who is the closest personification of "death" in the DV so far. And that would certainly qualify as a challenges to Mab's authority, an action against Mab's word and will. If Lea recovered herself and broke down in shame before she actually took an action, then everything fits.
You can make a distinction between what Lea did on her own and what Lea did under influence of Nemesis but one does not have to. Everything Lea did under influence of Nemesis she still did and some of that was a chalenge of Mab's authority.
I don't think lea was referring to death, at least in the natural sense. It is very much part of this world, this reality.The most likely identities for "that which stalks us all" are death, time, Nemesis, the persistent threat from the Outsiders, or a cycle of inescapable events (inevitability).
The outsiders, per woj, come from a universe or reality outside of our own and it is the existence and/or expansion of our universe that is causing their reality problems. So to solve it, they got to sabotage ours. To me the ultimate danger that stalks us is an attempt by outsiders to destroy our reality. Somehow, someway lea thought she could do something on some minute level.
We also have Woj that mab truly believed she did the best thing in placing lea within winter's well. The Woj sounded kinda ominous in that there will be some unintended consequence to this act.
The most likely identities for "that which stalks us all" are death, time, Nemesis, the persistent threat from the Outsiders, or a cycle of inescapable events (inevitability).I like you :)
Considering that all of those could be combined into one, I'd say it's all of them. Nemesis and the rest of the Outsiders present a persistent and inevitable threat to life itself.I prefer to stick to Nemesis as The Accuser, Enemy. She's out to judge life except were that judgement has been superseded by judgement from an afterlife or associated diety.
In other words, The End.
The most likely identities for "that which stalks us all" are death, time, Nemesis, the persistent threat from the Outsiders, or a cycle of inescapable events (inevitability).Could Love be considered as one other option of "that which stalks us all." For a creature like Lea, it is both ally and enemy.
Considering that all of those could be combined into one, I'd say it's all of them. Nemesis and the rest of the Outsiders present a persistent and inevitable threat to life itself.
In other words, The End.
The most likely identities for "that which stalks us all" are death, time, Nemesis, the persistent threat from the Outsiders, or a cycle of inescapable events (inevitability).
Considering that all of those could be combined into one, I'd say it's all of them. Nemesis and the rest of the Outsiders present a persistent and inevitable threat to life itself.
In other words, The End.
I think Griffyn612 has the right idea. What I want to think about further is what Arjan brought up, what did Lea mean by "what stalks us all."
This reading makes sense to me, and strikes me as the most obvious interpretation. Lea tried to struggle against Nemesis on her own, but was unable to win the fight without help. But the struggle alone doesn't seem like the offense that Mab spoke of in Changes. So what was the action that Nemesis was attempting to cause Lea to perform? A simple, small action of verbal challenge, a simple questioning of Mab's orders would probably be enough to fit the bill, that's most likely.
But what if we think bigger? What if "I thought I could overcome what stalks us all" refers to death? That phrase is certainly a common motif of death. And the goal of vanquishing death is already held by Cowl (according to Kumori anyway), who provided the athame to Lea via Bianca. Lea would be in a position to potentially make some type of move against Mother Winter, who is the closest personification of "death" in the DV so far. And that would certainly qualify as a challenges to Mab's authority, an action against Mab's word and will. If Lea recovered herself and broke down in shame before she actually took an action, then everything fits.
Therefore it's entirely possible that he's referring to ....
And their relentless pursuit of late fees.
"Ah, yes. I see," Mother Summer said. "So many new futures unwinding."
"Too many bright ones," Mother Winter said sullenly.
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
Mother Winter spit to one side.
"I am Mab. The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word."
"In all of winter, I am second in power only to Mab. Which she has allowed because I have incurred with it proportionate obligation to her. She is my dearest enemy, but even I do not owe Mab so much..."
My godmother was what she was, a being of violence, deceit and a thirst for power... and believe me, if Lea had been the high priestess of murder, blood lust, scheming and manipulation, then Mab was the goddess my godmother worshiped. Come to think of it, that was probably an apt description of their relationship.