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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Korwin on April 07, 2010, 07:30:11 PM
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Some questions about Item Crafting, or statements where I'm not shure I have it right.
Your Lore Skill says how strong your Items are, right?
You can push the strenght of the Items with Thaumaturgical Foki and Specilization, right?
So Superb Lore Skill + Starting Taumaturgical Specilization (+1) + 2 Item Slots for an +2 Crafting Strenght Foci = 8 Strenght of the Item
8/2 for an always active Magical Item = 4. Like say an 4 Armor
So an Crafting Wizard could have at start:
4-Strenght Armor and Weapon and 2 Potions (could an 8 Strenght Potion be something like: Physical Immunity ?)
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Hmm. Actually, the rules text suggests your options for a thaumaturgy focus item are discipline (for casting control), and lore (for determining whether you need to prepare or not)...
I don't see anything that explicitly permits 'crafting strength' as a focus. Specialization, yes; permitting a bonus to either casting strength or frequency (or both, if you take refinement).
It looks like this type of thing would require a house-rule from your GM. Personally, I think that would be a bit terrifying, because of the snowball effect that could provoke. It would permit a pure-crafting Ritualist FC to do some ... rather terrifying things with a small amount of refresh.
If permitted, however, your math otherwise adds up.. Except you would need to take Refinement to get enough item slots to make weapon, armor, and two potions.
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Hmm, you are right.
It isnt clear whats the RAI, I could see it both ways.
Craft Focus:
Not possible: because of balance
Possible: because of consitency
A thamaturgy focus is specified by any of the thaumaturgic types listed in this section, whether by function or theme
implies possible.
For thaumaturgy focuses, this bonus may be applied to the wizard’s upper bound on “no-prep” complexity (Lore) for thaumaturgy or to the wizard’s control (Discipline) rolls for casting.
implies not possible.
Types of Thaumaturgy
- Summoning and Binding
- Conjuration
- Divination
- Wards
- Crafting
- Transformationand Disruption
- Transportation and Worldwalking
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You are substantially correct, but Armor is only equal to half your shifts, so it'd only be Armor Value 2. Aside from that you're good to go.
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I see the halving Armor in Harries Duster example, but not in the Enchanted Items Rules at page 279...
Except you would need to take Refinement to get enough item slots to make weapon, armor, and two potions.
I was using an full Wizard.
2 Item Slots for the Focus (if RAW)
2 Item Slots exchanged for 4 Enchanted Item Slots
1 Enchanted Item Slot for Armor
1 Enchanted Item Slot for Weapon
2 Enchanted Item Slots for Potion
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A thamaturgy focus is specified by any of the thaumaturgic types listed in this section, whether by function or theme
implies possible.
For thaumaturgy focuses, this bonus may be applied to the wizard’s upper bound on “no-prep” complexity (Lore) for thaumaturgy or to the wizard’s control (Discipline) rolls for casting.
implies not possible.
Actually, there's no contradiction there. Just as evocation specialties and foci are two parts, so are thaumaturgical specialties and foci. So in this case, we'd have +1 Divination Complexity, or +1 Warding Control.
Since crafting has neither complexity nor control...
You are substantially correct, but Armor is only equal to half your shifts, so it'd only be Armor Value 2. Aside from that you're good to go.
I meant to mention that, thanks.
Korwin, presuming the thaumaturgical focus was allowed, you'd have 4 shifts to work with for your persistent equipment, and it could still be considered 'armor', it just doesn't use the Armor mechanic unless you halve it again.
This is covered on YS252.
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I see the halving Armor in Harries Duster example, but not in the Enchanted Items Rules at page 279...
It's in the general spell rules. In fact, as mentioned by Void, it's on p. 252. And all spell rules apply to Enchanted items as well, since Enhanted Items duplicate a spell.
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Let's break it down:
Thaumaturgy Crafting spec gives you either a +1 for frequency (increasing uses per session) or strength (increasing item potency by 1). It's under Crafting in the Spellcraft chapter. It's a rules exception; you know how that goes.
Let's say you take strength.
You have Superb Lore.
That means any items you specify will have a base strength of 6 shifts. (+5 Lore, +1 spec)
You have a potential 4 enchanted item slots from Thaumaturgy power, if you take no focus item slots. Let's assume you pour all that into one item.
You use one slot to make your armor, and pour as many slots in as possible. So you make it 8 shifts, divided by 2 is persistent 4.
That's Armor:2. (Check out evocation blocks - armor rating happens at a 2 for 1 rate. Hence, armor stuff is halved for persistence, and halved again for effect. There's an example item that shows this as well.)
Because you wouldn't get any benefit from adding that last shift (9 shifts goes down to persistent 4 as well), you keep the last shift.
Either that means you have a potion worth 6 shifts, or you can specify another enchanted item with a once-per-session, 6-shift effect.
So, Superb Lore and Crafting Strength spec and all slots spent on items gets you one set of Armor:2 and a 6-shift potion / other item.
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But let's go crazy, and say you used your evocation focus item slots to make an item that helps you with crafting. (It's legal, don't look at me that way.) You have to, by default, adhere to the columns, so you get +1 frequency and +1 strength.
All that would mean is that your armor had a base strength of 7 shifts when it started. You could invest all your slots for 10 shifts. So it'd give you a persistent Armor:2. (Remember, halved for persistent and halved again for armor.)
You're smart, so you only invest one slot and keep it at 8, for Armor:2. You now have two enchanted item slots. That's either two potions, two enchanted items that are once-per-session at a strength of 7 shifts, or some other legal combination therein.
Max combo ends up being one set of Armor:2 and two potions or enchanted items.
It's late, and I'm tired, so please let me know what part of that didn't make sense.
[EDIT: I caught one that didn't make sense to me already - blocks by nature cannot be persistent effects. So if you're going permanent, Armor is your only real option. Oops! (There might be another thread about this later, true believers.)]
-Lenny
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But let's go crazy, and say you used your evocation focus item slots to make an item that helps you with crafting. (It's legal, don't look at me that way.) You have to, by default, adhere to the columns, so you get +1 frequency and +1 strength.
Firstly, if you're tired, you should sleep. :D
Secondly, the only thing that throws me off is that the preview PDF, as I saw it, mentions specializations on YS280, but nothing indicates you can make a Crafting Strength or Crafting Frequency focus.
Maybe that warrants a clarification somewhere, particularly since the Crafting specializations are already an exception to the rules?
Not arguing with you, I'm just saying, what you're saying, isn't what it's saying. Know what'm saying? ;)
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So, I have a question, actually: What happens if add magic Armor to kevlar? Or plate mail for that matter? Can you stack the magic armor with the mundane? I'd think so, but I'm not sure.
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Maybe that warrants a clarification somewhere, particularly since the Crafting specializations are already an exception to the rules?
It does indeed. I didn't intend to stop a person who wanted to use their foci to boost crafting instead of blowshitups or something else more proactive.
So noted.
-Lenny
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I missed before that Armor is halfed again. So I got an crazy good result with +4 Armor.
But one question I got from your summary:
But let's go crazy, and say you used your evocation focus item slots to make an item that helps you with crafting. (It's legal, don't look at me that way.) You have to, by default, adhere to the columns, so you get +1 frequency and +1 strength.
From page YW 279:
Example: Evan Montrose has three focus item slots. He could make a single wand that takes up all three slots, giving him +3 offensive power for wind evocation only, ...
So I thought Focus Items are an exception to the column rule.
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I missed before that Armor is halfed again. So I got an crazy good result with +4 Armor.
But one question I got from your summary:
From page YW 279:So I thought Focus Items are an exception to the column rule.
Yeah, I was under that impression, too. Actually, if it's not that really screws Focused Practicioners of all stripes, since they can't get anything above +1/+2 due to lacking more than two categories.
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So, I have a question, actually: What happens if add magic Armor to kevlar? Or plate mail for that matter? Can you stack the magic armor with the mundane? I'd think so, but I'm not sure.
I don't think armor stacks, period. You take the highest rating available, and that's your protection. It's sort of the same logic that blocks use - if you have a Great (+4) block protecting me, and I roll a Fantastic (+6) to defend, I get my result. But we don't stack them.
From a narration perspective, I could see an enchanted Kevlar suit despite this - it might only be Armor:2, but it works both when you get shot and when some Summer Court rep tries to incinerate you with Summer flame. That's largely color stuff, though.
-Lenny
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I don't think armor stacks, period. You take the highest rating available, and that's your protection. It's sort of the same logic that blocks use - if you have a Great (+4) block protecting me, and I roll a Fantastic (+6) to defend, I get my result. But we don't stack them.
From a narration perspective, I could see an enchanted Kevlar suit despite this - it might only be Armor:2, but it works both when you get shot and when some Summer Court rep tries to incinerate you with Summer flame. That's largely color stuff, though.
-Lenny
Does that mean those with Inhuman Toughness can't stack it's benefits with worn armor? Because that...doesn't make alot of sense, actually. And makes it definitively worse than Inhuman Strength, whose Stress bonus most definitively does stack with weapons.
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So I thought Focus Items are an exception to the column rule.
Oho! You're right. See? Tired.
So, +2 strength.
Base item strength becomes 8 shifts.
It doesn't actually change the armor effect - you need 12 shifts for a permanent Armor:3. So if you're smart, you keep the 8 shifts.
However, that does leave you 3 slots free to keep for enchanted items or potions. And those items default to 8 shifts.
So, there's that.
-Lenny
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Does that mean those with Inhuman Toughness can't stack it's benefits with worn armor? Because that...doesn't make alot of sense, actually. And makes it definitively worse than Inhuman Strength, whose Stress bonus most definitively does stack with weapons.
The Strength powers outdistance the equivalent Toughness powers on purpose. So, no apologies there.
Armor simply isn't a 1:1 thing when you're talking about gritty modern stuff. Even in real life, so-called "bulletproof" vests still often result in a cracked rib when you get shot center mass by a decently-sized round. There's a point at which, especially when you're talking about units of measure as large and abstract as the ones we use, that layering doesn't really help. I think that's even the case with supernatural defenses - if you've got an Armor:1 innate toughness, but you've encased yourself in Armor:3 protection, the big number is the one that matters, dramatically speaking. (Hell, I could even see that as a way of dealing with the Catch, for some beings.)
I could have gone with a Cyberpunk 2020-esque solution, but that would have resulted in a lot of fractions and rounding, which would have pretty much put us at the equivalent of no stacking anyway.
-Lenny
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The Strength powers outdistance the equivalent Toughness powers on purpose. So, no apologies there.
Armor simply isn't a 1:1 thing when you're talking about gritty modern stuff. Even in real life, so-called "bulletproof" vests still often result in a cracked rib when you get shot center mass by a decently-sized round. There's a point at which, especially when you're talking about units of measure as large and abstract as the ones we use, that layering doesn't really help. I think that's even the case with supernatural defenses - if you've got an Armor:1 innate toughness, but you've encased yourself in Armor:3 protection, the big number is the one that matters, dramatically speaking. (Hell, I could even see that as a way of dealing with the Catch, for some beings.)
I could have gone with a Cyberpunk 2020-esque solution, but that would have resulted in a lot of fractions and rounding, which would have pretty much put us at the equivalent of no stacking anyway.
-Lenny
Magical/mundane armour should stack, if you wear kevlar/steelplate over your enchanted tshirt that should decrease the energy your tshirt has to deal with resulting in the equivalence of a stacking effect. Of course which kinds of damage gets through should also matter.
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Magical/mundane armour should stack, if you wear kevlar/steelplate over your enchanted tshirt that should decrease the energy your tshirt has to deal with resulting in the equivalence of a stacking effect. Of course which kinds of damage gets through should also matter.
It's too bad that you'll likely die of heat exhaustion before arriving at the fight though ;D
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Personally, my hangup is that if you have some kevlar or composite weave or SOMETHING, and you start stitching runes into it, you should be able to reinforce it for less effort than it'd take to create an equivalent defensive effect without that underlying infrastructure. Getting Armor:3 from kevlar should be easier, require less work and personal investment, than from a t-shirt.
On the other hand, the system doesn't really _track_ non-magical items on a character strength/balance level, so there isn't anything currently to keep everyone from going "My armor is this special material plus this extra enchantment"..
And of course the gripping hand is that we haven't seen anyone wearing enchanted body armor yet, have we? Is that because of traditions/closed mindedness on the part of wizards we deal with? Aside from Harry, who hasn't had the resources/funds for actual armor throughout most of the series, it's pretty well established that most of the White Council is kind of stuck in their ways.
I feel like I'm missing a crucial piece of this puzzle.
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Yeah, from a perspective of logic, enchanted armor should be better than regular armor...and both should stack with inherent toughness. On the other hand, we don't want layering to get out of hand...that could get really bad. Also silly.
Hmmm. Maybe a cap on how much armor can stack? Stacked armor maxes out at, say, 3 and can't go any higher? And of course the proviso that physical armor of level 2 or higher is really obvious.
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And of course the gripping hand is that we haven't seen anyone wearing enchanted body armor yet, have we? Is that because of traditions/closed mindedness on the part of wizards we deal with? Aside from Harry, who hasn't had the resources/funds for actual armor throughout most of the series, it's pretty well established that most of the White Council is kind of stuck in their ways.
Doesn't Carlos wear Kevlar with his grenades and things? I /think/ I recall a reference.
Kevlar's only Armor 1-2, anyway. Personally, I wouldn't make a big deal of it, but I would, if they were using such a material, maybe add +1 or +2 to the wizard's Lore for that item only. I'd also make a note that if they're stopped, police will be curious. Even if not illegal, they'll wonder why the guy in the periphery of the case is wearing kevlar. I think the tradeoff of 'a bit of a boost' verses 'you have to possibly deal with police' is a fair tradeoff.
Edit: Don't know if this works, actually. Mostly because +1-+2 isn't enough to actually have an impact for armor. Maybe rather than complicating stuff, just eyeball. Say that a 'suitable material' gives +1 to the final value, and call it a day.
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Magical/mundane armour should stack, if you wear kevlar/steelplate over your enchanted tshirt that should decrease the energy your tshirt has to deal with resulting in the equivalence of a stacking effect. Of course which kinds of damage gets through should also matter.
Actually the reason Michael stacked his armor was because the plate part was better against claws (slashing) and teeth (which can crush) and the Kevlar helps against guns.
So Michael's armor was probably Chainmail (Armor:2 vs melee/thrown) and Lots of Kevlar (Armor:2 vs guns). Do we ever see anyone shoot fire at Michael? The listing of "Armor:2" seems like a simplification.
You just apply the best armor that is applicable.
Firefighters in Fate would have Armor:3 against fire and Armor:More against smoke inhalation (assuming they are using their breathing rig). It probably has a limitation of "really ****ing heavy and hot" (suffer a penalty to Athletics and Might checks while wearing it).