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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Bad Alias on May 31, 2020, 08:54:31 AM

Title: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on May 31, 2020, 08:54:31 AM
Over in the "What do you look forward to in Peace Talks?" thread, the discussion has moved to Harry getting a power up. It made me think of what's often described as power creep in the Dresden Files. I think creep is very apropos for Harry's gaining of power because it mostly happens pretty slowly. It creeps on up in a way that's hard to point to.

While he doesn't get a power up every book, he's almost always more powerful in at least one way. Usually a noticeable way. He's often also less powerful in some way. Usually less notable. Occasionally, he's significantly more powerful or significantly less powerful in an obvious way.

It's generally subtle from book to book, but Harry seems more powerful each book. He gets more foci. He gets a bigger gun every four books or so. His fuego spell gets tighter and tighter. I think it's first described as "as big around as my hips" to eventually being "as big as my two fingers." Occasionally we get big steps forward like in BR, when Harry has enchanted his duster and gets Hellfire.

Outline of Harry's power progression that I can recall:
(click to show/hide)
What am I missing and when did it happen? Thoughts on "power creep" in the Dresden Files?
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Mira on May 31, 2020, 01:12:02 PM

  If course Harry is getting more powerful, he is the star child, by the BAT he has to be a real bad ass otherwise he won't have a chance against the Outsiders.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Avernite on May 31, 2020, 03:02:43 PM
  If course Harry is getting more powerful, he is the star child, by the BAT he has to be a real bad ass otherwise he won't have a chance against the Outsiders.
He smashed them down in Cold Days. Because his power was not his magic, but his mind.

So suggests to me his key powerup will be knowledge, as Odin alluded to.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Mira on May 31, 2020, 04:53:46 PM
He smashed them down in Cold Days. Because his power was not his magic, but his mind.

So suggests to me his key powerup will be knowledge, as Odin alluded to.

  Of course, that too.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: morriswalters on May 31, 2020, 08:22:49 PM
If your interested here is a video discussing something similar to this. Somewhere around 19 minutes in.

Penguin Worlds Book Club: Jim Butcher in conversation with Patrick Rothfuss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt3XtP0cStg&t=1456s)
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on May 31, 2020, 09:07:13 PM
@Avernite: Good observation. An example of how Harry leverages knowledge to great effect is his utilization of the Little Folk. Knowing what they're capable allows Harry to use them for all sorts of stuff that heavily pays off. Mostly it's for knowledge.

@Morris: Yeah, but that's much more about how an author should handle power creep. The answer is have a plan. It's simple, obvious, and often ignored. I'm more interested in looking at it from a doylist perspective, mapping his progress, predictions about where he's going or where the power ups are going to come from (like Avernite's prediction of knowledge), etc.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: morriswalters on May 31, 2020, 09:46:45 PM
Then his Mothers ruby.  In Blood Rites she gives Harry knowledge.  While that may have been about what she had done to Raith she may have left him another legacy hidden in the Never Never.  Sooner or later he has to learn what is what and who is who.  And one way to do that would be for Margaret to have had a redoubt in the Never Never such as Rashid's.  Maybe she kept a diary, or, for those time travel aficionados, maybe a way to travel back in time to meet her. If your gonna use time travel then you can do all kinds of weird things.  So instead of going back and kicking Eb's butt he could go back and hug momma.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Yuillegan on May 31, 2020, 10:28:13 PM
A couple of subtler things:
Man's magical workout training preceding Cold Days. Harry gets better physically but also magically learns to not needs his foci as much.

Training with Molly - he re-examines his basic knowledge and refines it. He gets better at mental defence and assault.

He had potions and foci in the early books (SF to BR)

Thomas went from occasional ally to brother. Lara becomes a sometimes ally, as does Marcone. He gains the support of Vadderung openly. There are others such as Ivy, Kincaid, Uriel etc that seem to be backing him.

He occasionally invents or uses something new like the electrical chain or his sword cane.

And now he has the artifacts (read: weapons) of the Christ. There is an argument to say his possession of the Spear of Destiny may have been what gave him and his allies victory against the Denarians.

I also think being a "ghost" taught him a bit about that world that he didn't understand, and his ectomancy will have improved.

Also something intangible over the series is how scary he becomes to his enemies. He isn't really very scary to anyone in book 1. But now he is really something to worry about, a destroyer of nations and demigods. That impression, that reputation is a very real weapon in his arsenal and armour against his foes.

Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Wolfeyes on June 01, 2020, 12:16:30 AM
Agree with the point that Harry's key powerups comes in the form of knowledge.

I think the powercreep in the series has largely been balanced by the acknowledgement that while Harry has a lot of raw power, he didn't have the finesse other wizards had. He didn't have a reason to lean into learning more about veils and the basics until he started teaching Molly and having powerups like the Winter Knight mantle have forced him to learn how to use it so it doesn't chew up his soul. He's getting more power but he's mostly learning *how* to use it beyond just how to make a bigger fire. And that's what he needs to keep up with the heavy hitting characters in the series since they not only have power but the means to use it.

It reminds me of what Jim's said about Bonnie. Sure Bonnie has a lot of knowledge but she doesn't know how to use it properly yet compared to Bob. She needs knowledge and experience, much like Harry's been getting.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on June 01, 2020, 01:52:27 AM
@Morris: I really want some pay off from the ruby. It was instrumental in Chances and mentioned in CD. It's too powerful to just shelve. I know Jim often sets these things aside for several books, but (whiny voice) I want it now.

A couple of subtler things:
Mab's magical workout training preceding Cold Days. Harry gets better physically but also magically learns to not needs his foci as much.

...

He occasionally invents or uses something new like the electrical chain...

Also something intangible over the series is how scary he becomes to his enemies. He isn't really very scary to anyone in book 1. But now he is really something to worry about, a destroyer of nations and demigods. That impression, that reputation is a very real weapon in his arsenal and armour against his foes.
That's a good point. It's hard to quantify his increase in control. It's obvious and larger in CD, but it also happens in every book. If I was to quantify it by, for example, saying Harry gets plus 1 control in a typical book and plus 3 in CD, I know I'd be wrong, and I'd know people would miss the point and argue that not only was I most definitely wrong, but some different number is clearly and obviously right. In fact, I half expect it to happen based on that sentence.

I didn't even try to put in new foci that only show up in one book or were already present in SF. I pretty much ignored everything that happened and was resolved in one book like Harry losing fire magic in SmF. I'm sure all that stuff would affect his "character sheet," by making him better at handling those situations and crafting items in the future, but it's extremely hard to quantify.

Changes, plus 10 to Reputation.  ;)

@Wolfeyes: I would distinguish between knowledge and experience using knowledge.  Harry has knowledge or gains it, then he must learn how to use it. He normally learns to use it through experience.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Con on June 01, 2020, 06:27:13 AM
The one spell that seems to be on the increase the most is Shield spell
1. Physical objects.
2. To being able to defend against fire.
3. Uses it effectively in the Raith Deeps duel in white night.
4. Uses it against the Denarians, noticebly goes up against Thorned Namshiels 6 or 7 'wave lengths attack.'
5. Naagloshi uses a similar 'wave length attack'only Harry defends against all of the different attacks.
6. Duel with Arianna, and the Battle of Chitzchen Itza.
7. Mab trains him so he doesn't even need the Shield Bracelet. Defends against the Summer Knight.
8. Redirects Hannah Aschers Fire Spell with ease.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: noblehunter on June 01, 2020, 02:29:19 PM
I like how Butcher has Harry level up in response to the pressures he's under. He gets better at blowing things up because of the war; he gets better at subtle work because he needs to teach Molly. I wouldn't be surprised if his hermit period trying to find a cure for vampirism laid the foundations for his later improvements in enchanting.

I don't remember, does he beef up his duster in response to almost getting sniped in the Michael short story?
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on June 01, 2020, 08:12:25 PM
I don't remember, does he beef up his duster in response to almost getting sniped in the Michael short story?
The only thing I recall being mentioned about him improving the spells on his duster is how long they last. In Changes, he thinks about how they last 6 months, but he thinks he's figured out how to push that to a year.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: TrueMonk on June 01, 2020, 09:31:06 PM
I would when he becomes the custodian of the swords.

Also his necromancy crash course :-)
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on June 02, 2020, 03:09:58 AM
I would when he becomes the custodian of the swords.

Also his necromancy crash course :-)
Good points and I did think about those things, but they're really hard to quantify as a power up. For the swords, my thought was how is that a power-up for Harry? It's more of a potential for getting a new ally later. For necromancy, will Harry ever use necromancy again? If not, is it a power up?
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: TrueMonk on June 02, 2020, 07:32:30 AM
Having the swords in custody means that he always have them on hand when needed, assuming that there is someone who can wield them. Given the nature of them I would expect that anytime they are meant to be used there will be someone on hand to use them. They, now it, can't even be tricked to deal with an emergency somewhere else. So they are at least really really handy ally power ups.

I remember seeing a word of Jim somewhere that the threat he makes to Mavra on having read the word of kemmler is because there is also something in there for dealing with black court vampires very  efficiently. If nothing else knowing how to become a minor did must be some sort of power up.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Avernite on June 02, 2020, 04:38:54 PM
Having the swords in custody means that he always have them on hand when needed, assuming that there is someone who can wield them. Given the nature of them I would expect that anytime they are meant to be used there will be someone on hand to use them. They, now it, can't even be tricked to deal with an emergency somewhere else. So they are at least really really handy ally power ups.

Alternatively, the fact he needs them on hand is a clear sign he's totally going down unless he has specific supernatural aid ;)
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: g33k on June 03, 2020, 03:24:09 AM
Having the swords in custody means that he always have them on hand when needed, assuming that there is someone who can wield them. Given the nature of them I would expect that anytime they are meant to be used there will be someone on hand to use them...

A very salient point, I think.  It is their nature to have the relevant sword wielded when and where it's needed.

... I remember seeing a word of Jim somewhere that the threat he makes to Mavra on having read the word of kemmler is because there is also something in there for dealing with black court vampires very efficiently ...

BCV's are magically-animated corpses.  Kemmler was the expert in that sort of thing...  So, yeah.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: magnuskn on June 03, 2020, 06:26:04 AM
Jim has been pretty explicit about this when asked at conventions. Harry is getting the basic tools to deal with the increased threats he is facing as time goes on, but just so that he'll always be the underdog and have to use his wits to defeat them, instead of just overpowering them.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on June 03, 2020, 08:41:06 PM
I remember seeing a word of Jim somewhere that the threat he makes to Mavra on having read the word of kemmler is because there is also something in there for dealing with black court vampires very  efficiently. If nothing else knowing how to become a minor did must be some sort of power up.
I doubt Harry was bluffing because it would have been a really stupid bluff. He gave Mavra the book, so she would know. I always assumed the it was some kind of necromancy, which is a forbidden magic. Thinking about it now, I think Mavra knew that was in the book, and that's why she wanted it. The Black Court were allies of Kemmler. It may have been because they didn't have a choice.

It's an interesting question of whether a power up on the shelf, so to speak, counts as a power up. If everyone, or just enough/the right people, knows about it, then it definitely helps his reputation. We've seen his reputation keep him safe a number of times.

Most of these things are definitely going to be good examples of Checkov's Gun. Some of them probably aren't going to pan out. In his recent interview with Patrick Rothfuss, Jim said some author at a convention gave him the advice that if you think of something cool, use it. It's probably a good idea your subconscious had that you haven't worked out yet, and if it isn't, it doesn't hurt to have a throwaway cool thing.

Jim has been pretty explicit about this when asked at conventions. Harry is getting the basic tools to deal with the increased threats he is facing as time goes on, but just so that he'll always be the underdog and have to use his wits to defeat them, instead of just overpowering them.
Yeah. I took the term power creep from him. He often says that the way for an author to handle it is by having to know where your character is going. It's stated in conjunction with a story has a beginning, a middle, and an end.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Snark Knight on June 04, 2020, 01:47:19 PM
I doubt Harry was bluffing because it would have been a really stupid bluff. He gave Mavra the book, so she would know. I always assumed the it was some kind of necromancy, which is a forbidden magic. Thinking about it now, I think Mavra knew that was in the book, and that's why she wanted it. The Black Court were allies of Kemmler. It may have been because they didn't have a choice.

There's even a WOJ that he wasn't bluffing.

That doesn't mean there aren't risks or consequences for him if he actually uses that easy way to wreck a blampire, though. It may risk him going dark, for one thing.

The short story It's My Birthday Too was well after DB. There has to be some reason he chose to pick those blampires off with the gravity spell and then feign defeat to spit garlic in the leader's face rather than use the easy button he knows for wrecking them.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Mira on June 04, 2020, 02:46:00 PM
Quote

There's even a WOJ that he wasn't bluffing.

That doesn't mean there aren't risks or consequences for him if he actually uses that easy way to wreck a blampire, though. It may risk him going dark, for one thing.


  It wasn't a bluff, he has read the book, Sue was proof of that.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Ed0517 on June 16, 2020, 05:22:41 AM
Power creep is inevitable - look how they talk of wizards - the Senior Council is the oldest AND MOST POWERFUL. Both criteria go together.

 A bonfire has more energy than a cutting torch. But Harry learns (from Luccio?) how to FOCUS his fire into a laser like beam.  More effective. More efficient.

Cowl talks of being disappointed Harry is not ready for the heavyweight division - as in you are expected to move up in time. Rashid talks about Harry being the most powerful OF HIS GENERATION - as in other generations may be more powerful.

BTW, for Cinder Spires readers.. recall this - pb p 529
(click to show/hide)
so Jim uses the same concept there
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Yuillegan on June 16, 2020, 06:02:19 AM
Intersting point, Ed0517.

In a recent interview Jim actually talked about that very encounter and how in the next book (or two) we are going to see what the heavyweight division is. We know a that
(click to show/hide)
comes to town after this book (from the blurb of Batte Ground). So I suspect he was talking about that.

The fact Cowl was referencing it as far back as Dead Beat (and could tell from Harry's shield he wasn't ready) says to me that this has been in motion for sometime and there might be further hints. I also suspect that was a small hint that Cowl will show up again in the next book (or two).

So the real question is Harry ready for the heavyweight division now?
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: TrueMonk on June 16, 2020, 01:47:55 PM
...Yeah. I took the term power creep from him. He often says that the way for an author to handle it is by having to know where your character is going. It's stated in conjunction with a story has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

To be fair I think the term "Power Creep" is usually taken to mean how characters slowly become to powerfull for the obstacles they are facing. Like in DnD at lvl 5 the world is full of deadly threats, but at lvl 15 a good party can really steamroll a lot of things. Jim then states that he is not going to have this problem in Dresden Files because he has planned out the books till the end. In this way Dresdens power will never creep too high relative to the things he is fighting, i.e. there will be no power creep.

I agree, but I really like the thread so I just took the thread to mean Power Increase, which I think was Bad Alias intent.

Moving on.

One thing I like related to power creep is the realization that comes from meeting something that used to be a threat, but is not (much of a threat) anymore. Like in a DnD game where we early in the story had a boss fight with a troll and somewhat later had to conquer a small castle manned by lots and lots of trolls. That made the progression of our characters very clear. I hope we will see that in Peace Talks, e.g. Dresden punching an Octokong in the face.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on June 16, 2020, 04:29:27 PM
But Harry learns (from Luccio?) how to FOCUS his fire into a laser like beam.
He does see Luccio do it in Dead Beat and internal monologues about how there's a big difference between him and her. He does get closer to that level of precision with his blasting rod, where she didn't appear to use a focus, but Harry was already getting more focus and control of his fuego spell. I wouldn't say he learned it from Luccio. I'd just say Luccio is a bench mark for what a wizard can accomplish after a lifetime as a combat specialist.

I don't think escalation of power is necessarily inevitable in serial fiction broadly or even serial fantasy fiction specifically. I do think it's almost necessarily inherent in the framing of the idea of the Dresden Files as Jim has talked about how he broadly conceived the idea. He's said things like it's about the young hot heads who haven't earned respect yet, he wanted a wizard who threw fireballs (I'm assuming that's a direct DnD reference), etc.

To be fair I think the term "Power Creep" is usually taken to mean how characters slowly become to powerfull for the obstacles they are facing. Like in DnD at lvl 5 the world is full of deadly threats, but at lvl 15 a good party can really steamroll a lot of things. Jim then states that he is not going to have this problem in Dresden Files because he has planned out the books till the end. In this way Dresdens power will never creep too high relative to the things he is fighting, i.e. there will be no power creep.

I agree, but I really like the thread so I just took the thread to mean Power Increase, which I think was Bad Alias intent.
Yeah. That was my understanding of the term from general usage as well. A good example is in collectible card games where the cards slowly get better and better so that cards from early releases become useless garbage which undermines the supposed backwards compatibility of earlier releases. TV Tropes says:
Quote
This trope is the Gameplay Mechanics counterpart to So Last Season, Overshadowed by Awesome, Sequel Escalation and Serial Escalation, which refers to narrative or thematic elements.
So power creep isn't really applicable because 1) it's not a game, and 2) Jim does it too well for the pejorative connotation of power creep to be fitting, but it's what Jim says, so I went with it.

One thing I like related to power creep is the realization that comes from meeting something that used to be a threat, but is not (much of a threat) anymore. Like in a DnD game where we early in the story had a boss fight with a troll and somewhat later had to conquer a small castle manned by lots and lots of trolls. That made the progression of our characters very clear. I hope we will see that in Peace Talks, e.g. Dresden punching an Octokong in the face.
One thing I like about how Jim handles power escalation, is that Harry, who was always way more powerful than "tiny fairies," to quote Bob, is still vulnerable to them after getting so much more powerful. And it's really enjoyable because it's not like Jim is just nerfing Harry to make them still a threat. Tiny fairies killed Aurora in book 4. Harry wouldn't have to worry much about a pixie, but a swarm is another matter entirely.

Another thing that I enjoy is that Jim explains why Harry doesn't just smash opponents he probably should be able to. The tiny fairies in CD were too close to the Za Guard and Harry just couldn't bring himself to immolating them anyway. In SG, he probably could have torn through the Octokongs, but he was surrounded by potential innocent victims.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Ed0517 on June 17, 2020, 03:43:05 AM
To be fair I think the term "Power Creep" is usually taken to mean how characters slowly become to powerfull for the obstacles they are facing. Like in DnD at lvl 5 the world is full of deadly threats, but at lvl 15 a good party can really steamroll a lot of things.

He is growing in power, but so are his enemies. Much like a D&D game where you fight orcs, then ogres, then that fire giant who would easily crush orcs and ogres. He used to watch over a small part of Chicago, then he was  regional commander in the Wardens, now Winter Knight and next.....

The power creep is Little League, then High School, the minor leagues, and then the bigs.... remember when there was a game named baseball?
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Ed0517 on June 17, 2020, 05:55:42 AM
He does see Luccio do it in Dead Beat and internal monologues about how there's a big difference between him and her. He does get closer to that level of precision with his blasting rod, where she didn't appear to use a focus, but Harry was already getting more focus and control of his fuego spell. I wouldn't say he learned it from Luccio. I'd just say Luccio is a bench mark for what a wizard can accomplish after a lifetime as a combat specialist.

Ok, so maybe he is inspired by her. He gets the idea that a waterjet can cut better than a fire hose.  Though I would not rule out her giving him a tip or two, like a coach giving a pitcher a tip on his grip for a split finger fastball. Still requires work on his side. 


I don't think escalation of power is necessarily inevitable in serial fiction broadly or even serial fantasy fiction specifically. I do think it's almost necessarily inherent in the framing of the idea of the Dresden Files as Jim has talked about how he broadly conceived the idea. He's said things like it's about the young hot heads who haven't earned respect yet, he wanted a wizard who threw fireballs (I'm assuming that's a direct DnD reference), etc.

Yes, Jim is obviously a gamer. two parts stand out - where gaming with the Alphas, Harry says they stand at a certain distance, and the fireball died out right in front of them, and Harry disapproved of the exactness. In early AD&D, a fireball was a 20' radius sphere - launched carelessly into a small room with heavy stone walls, the blast could be funneled out right over the casters. I think Harry would prefer having to make sure the group ensure they were not hoist by their own petard.  Jim likes fire having to follow physical laws, he spoke to Murphy about the neat hole the Hellfire burned, saying the control might be more difficult  than evoking the fire. 

     the second is where Harry tells Susan in the Erlking's lair they are facing goblins, and she says "Shouldn't you be able to take about a million of them?' or something to that effect.  In early AD&D, at least,  when fighting very weak foes (less than 1 HD) a fighter got as many attacks as he had levels. So for something like a goblin, a good fighter will be chopping them down like wheat. Harry replies they are tougher than their reputation. In AD&D orcs beat goblins, and hobgoblins beat orcs. Butcher's goblins are tougher than Gygax's. 



One thing I like about how Jim handles power escalation, is that Harry, who was always way more powerful than "tiny fairies," to quote Bob, is still vulnerable to them after getting so much more powerful. And it's really enjoyable because it's not like Jim is just nerfing Harry to make them still a threat. Tiny fairies killed Aurora in book 4. Harry wouldn't have to worry much about a pixie, but a swarm is another matter entirely.

The old "Pack of wolves beats a grizzly".

Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: dspringer1 on June 25, 2020, 11:21:43 PM
Other enhancements are just as powerful.  In no particular order as I cannot remember which book provides which.
*  After training molly, he can do veils a lot more easily
*  In ghost watching molly, he sees the power of illusion
*  As winter knight, he starts to effectively use cold magic -- first in Changes with mixed fire/cold attack, but I would argue more effectively in cold days
*  Reputation is power in the supernatural world - and Harry both builds reputation and leverages his reputation to get things done
*  His resistance to outsiders realized in cold days
*  His ability to block pain learned in Dead Beat from Lasciel
*  His summoning in book 1 that he used again a bit later in book 4 or 5, but not much since
*  Necromancy knowedge gained in Dead Beat.  he does not use much, but he did use
*  the ability to understand and speak multiple langues (and access to magical theory/history) gained from Lasciel and lost when he gave up the coin
*  He picked up mind magic in a much more effective way (defensively at least) after Turn Coat
*  Bear power belt showed up in book 2 and never came back* 



Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: EBRIEN on June 26, 2020, 08:05:03 PM
I like shields as an example of HOW Harry gains power. Once he see how someone else does something, he's able to adapt it to his own power or modify it. I heard Mozart described as a Refiner of music, notso much an innovator. He wasn't doing anything new, just doing what had been done better than it had been done before. Example with shield bracelet and power rings--->His shield didn't take into account fire until he nearly lost his hand. With the rings...he had one, then he had triplets. It's sorta like technology and how it's not necessarily better now than last year, but it's more efficient at doing the same things. (Processing power--8 cores better than 6----Or twin turbo V6 vs naturally aspirated V8).

The one spell that seems to be on the increase the most is Shield spell
1. Physical objects.
2. To being able to defend against fire.
3. Uses it effectively in the Raith Deeps duel in white night.
4. Uses it against the Denarians, noticebly goes up against Thorned Namshiels 6 or 7 'wave lengths attack.'
5. Naagloshi uses a similar 'wave length attack'only Harry defends against all of the different attacks.
6. Duel with Arianna, and the Battle of Chitzchen Itza.
7. Mab trains him so he doesn't even need the Shield Bracelet. Defends against the Summer Knight.
8. Redirects Hannah Aschers Fire Spell with ease.

Thanks for my daily dose of thoughtful reflection. Cheers---Brien
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: SerScot on June 28, 2020, 03:20:40 PM
Over in the "What do you look forward to in Peace Talks?" thread, the discussion has moved to Harry getting a power up. It made me think of what's often described as power creep in the Dresden Files. I think creep is very apropos for Harry's gaining of power because it mostly happens pretty slowly. It creeps on up in a way that's hard to point to.

While he doesn't get a power up every book, he's almost always more powerful in at least one way. Usually a noticeable way. He's often also less powerful in some way. Usually less notable. Occasionally, he's significantly more powerful or significantly less powerful in an obvious way.

It's generally subtle from book to book, but Harry seems more powerful each book. He gets more foci. He gets a bigger gun every four books or so. His fuego spell gets tighter and tighter. I think it's first described as "as big around as my hips" to eventually being "as big as my two fingers." Occasionally we get big steps forward like in BR, when Harry has enchanted his duster and gets Hellfire.

Outline of Harry's power progression that I can recall:
(click to show/hide)
What am I missing and when did it happen? Thoughts on "power creep" in the Dresden Files?

He lost most of his “foci” in Changes and has been slowly replacing them.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on June 30, 2020, 08:12:45 PM
Yeah, I was only hitting the main novels, so I didn't mention his new shield bracelet. By PT,
(click to show/hide)
I was really hoping for more. I feel like it will be a soft and quiet retcon if Harry doesn't end up with more and better gear now that he has a lot more wealth than it ever looked like he was going to get in the series.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Arjan on July 01, 2020, 01:46:10 AM
Yeah, I was only hitting the main novels, so I didn't mention his new shield bracelet. By PT,
(click to show/hide)
I was really hoping for more. I feel like it will be a soft and quiet retcon if Harry doesn't end up with more and better gear now that he has a lot more wealth than it ever looked like he was going to get in the series.
Making and maintaining foci also takes considerable time and effort. He has a child now and there is less time between books.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: g33k on July 01, 2020, 02:51:37 PM
Making and maintaining fooi also takes considerable time and effort. He has a child now and there is less time between books.

Yeah.

He was limited by tools and materials in the time between Cold Days & Skin Game.  Sometime since then, he has taken custody of Maggie.  I think that eats up most of his spare time.

I don't see him having time to do much more than replace the old items, rather than go all Klaus-the-Toymaker mode.

Also, Mab was explicitly training him to do without even his basic tools...  I think Jim will lean-in on that for a book or two more, at least.
 
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: dspringer1 on July 01, 2020, 05:05:18 PM
Certainly since the events in Changes destroyed or lost so many of his foci, Harry's foci in later books have been clearly inferior in number and quality.  Many reasons - time, resources, being a ghost, etc -- have explained the gap.   But it feels like there is another reason as Harry could have gotten tools as they are not that expensive and he had plenty of time on the island before cold days. 

Part of me thinks the author has just been deliberately handicapping Harry, perhaps to make the contrast more dramatic when Harry is fully back on his game.    Part of me thinks the author has been shifting the focus away from foci and towards Harry's ability as a wizard.  Similar to how Harry's reliance on potions in book 1-2 mostly fell by the wayside in later books as his spells and foci became more effective.   There have been a lot of improvements in Harry's spellcasting after all in the last few books. 
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on July 01, 2020, 06:09:30 PM
Making and maintaining foci also takes considerable time and effort.
Yeah, Jim has said something like Harry spends 20 hours a week maintaining his magical gear. The reason I feel like it will be a retcon if Harry doesn't end up with more and better gear is that in one of the first books, Harry says he does partial enchantments that wear off because full enchantments are time consuming and expensive, with emphasis on expensive. In Changes, Harry thinks that he has figured out how to extend the life of the enchantments on his duster from 6 months to a year.

With better equipment and materials, Harry should be able to do full enchantments that last longer and require less maintenance because he's rich now. I'm not saying he needs to have his full arsenal back by PT or BG. I am saying he needs to have it back a hell of a lot sooner than it took him to build in the first place. I'm also saying it should be better.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: TrueMonk on July 02, 2020, 12:43:56 PM
Also because I think someone mentioned that he has a gift for creating magical items. I cannot remember who said it though.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on July 05, 2020, 10:02:31 PM
Bob was impressed Harry was able to build Little Chicago.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: g33k on July 06, 2020, 08:27:55 PM
...   But it feels like there is another reason as Harry could have gotten tools as they are not that expensive and he had plenty of time on the island before cold days ...

Uhhhh... What time?

Changes was where Harry lost his staff, the most versatile & powerful of his foci.  And then he died.
Then Ghost Story.
Then Cold Days.
Not seeing his free time.

That mini-trilogy was back-to-back (as Harry experienced them; there was a period of many months post-Changes before GS, but Harry wasn't aware of them).

It's pretty explicit that the time between CD/SG was Harry being a hermit... Which is to say, NOT free to go buy a bunch of tools & gear to rebuild a laboratory... or even a construction-shop...

He was living in terror...  Terror of himself, and of "the M mob" -- Mab, Molly, Michael, Maggie.  Especially Maggie.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Walter the skull on July 06, 2020, 08:57:30 PM
Harry will rebuild some of his gear over time.  He may not need all  of it.  It's hard to say, but it seems like older wizards have less gear than Harry had.  Harry may learn to live without the gear before he get a around to making new gear.  While I'm disappointed that he doesn't have his full kit, it makes sense.  Money alone isn't enough to rebuild all of the materials and tools that Harry had.  He spent years collecting that stuff, and let's face it, he probably doesn't have that many opportunities to acquire stuff like depleted uranium.

I also think we missed a minor power up.  In Grave Pearl when Harry eats Kravos to get his own power back, he also eats Kravos's power.  I may be wrong about this, but it seems like he started using more fire magic after that. 
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: forumghost on July 06, 2020, 09:56:14 PM
Harry will rebuild some of his gear over time.  He may not need all  of it.  It's hard to say, but it seems like older wizards have less gear than Harry had.  Harry may learn to live without the gear before he get a around to making new gear.  While I'm disappointed that he doesn't have his full kit, it makes sense.  Money alone isn't enough to rebuild all of the materials and tools that Harry had.  He spent years collecting that stuff, and let's face it, he probably doesn't have that many opportunities to acquire stuff like depleted uranium.

The Merlin literally had an entire utility belt in Changes.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Bad Alias on July 07, 2020, 03:11:57 AM
In Grave Pearl when Harry eats Kravos to get his own power back, he also eats Kravos's power.
I think that power went away. I think a big part of the darkhallow was that Kemmler found a way to keep the power. Pure speculation on my part.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Walter the skull on July 07, 2020, 09:11:54 AM
Forum Ghost: True, but it doesn't seems like Injun Joe, Ebenezer, Luccio, and Morgan carried many focus items.  Like I said, its hard to tell, they may have them, but they may be more subtle ones than Harry's.

Bad Alias:  That could be.

I'm re-listening to Skin Game now.  In it Harry says that his shield bracelet wasn't found with him when he awoke from his coma in Ghost Story.  Maybe it didn't fall off, but instead Mab took to make him less reliant on his gear.  Maybe she'll give it back some time during Peace Talks.

Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2020, 12:24:06 AM
Harry gains new knowledge in each book, and that is the true power, for goodness sake he even keeps the knowledge of Eb and Thomas’s relationship from them.

The one thing which would be a true power up for Harry would be to be able to use modern technology and to ‘fix’ the Murphy field. To be able to use a smartphone and the internet would give him a major edge over other Wizards.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: vultur on July 08, 2020, 06:30:58 AM
Maybe it didn't fall off, but instead Mab took to make him less reliant on his gear.  Maybe she'll give it back some time during Peace Talks.

In the PT sample chapters
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Walter the skull on July 08, 2020, 07:57:53 AM
Yeah he made it in Jury Duty, but in the newest chapter, Mab's comment does make it seem less likely that she has his old one.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2020, 10:32:31 AM
I don’ t know why Harry just doesn’t use the shield tag on Mouses collar to locate the bracelet, and use earth magic to recover it from the waters of Lake Michigan, as iron was used in its construction. Harry can wear iron, he just can’t have it penetrate his skin.

Frankly give his improved focus and that bracelet, Harry should be able to generate a shield AROUND an opponent in a sphere to reflect their attack back at them or ‘hampster  ball’ them and then quickly reduce the size of the sphere crushing them into a small ball. Would work wonderfully for Blamps and ghouls, and catch out someone like Cowl expecting to deflect an attack from one direction when the attack is from all direction simultaneously. The best defence is a strong offence, so turn your defence into a weapon.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Walter the skull on July 08, 2020, 02:17:27 PM
I like the idea of using mouses collar to locate his old shield Bracelet.
Title: Re: Power Creep
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 08, 2020, 04:28:09 PM
He used the shield on the bracelet to locate Mouse, and he recovered a coin collection lost in Lake Michigan. I doubt he could get his rings back though that way, unless they were in the same area.