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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Lawgiver on November 08, 2016, 05:11:38 PM
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During our latest game session my players got very angry… and I need some help. I’m hoping I’ve misinterpreted something and I can give them good data after y’all clear up the mistake… but…
Situation: The group (six characters) are in combat with four ghouls and a sorcerer. One of the characters is a newbie Wizard and puts up a magic circle to protect herself from incoming spells.
The Problem: Circles only protect against magic and ectoplasmic constructs (like the body a demon will build for itself when coming to the mortal world). It has no inherent capability to stop physical objects from crossing the barrier… particularly objects deliberately thrown across the barrier by a free-willed mortal. One of the ghouls tossed a chunk of wood over our lady Wizard’s circle and broke it… and she took a really heavy hit from the sorcerer’s next spell. The group cried foul, big time.
What purpose, they asked, to put up a circle for protection if it can’t protect? Their envisioning of circles, despite everything JB’s said about them in the DF books, was that such a circle was all but a bullet proof chamber to lay low in until ready to exit and kick some butt. No so, says I, and I described what I’ve said above about magic and constructs. They were livid and the game session crashed and burned on the spot. To be truthful, they’re about to call off playing the DFRPG altogether because of that – to them – gigantic flaw in the game mechanics.
There’s not a ton of data on circles; how they work and their limitations, but I’m fairly sure I’ve got at least the basic interpretation correct. Have I misread/misinterpreted something?
I’m at a total loss here.
HELP!
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I was under the impression that free will is required to break a circle, even with a physical object. Bob didn't seem to break Harry's circle in StF when he threw the escape potion to him. Do ghouls have free will enough to break a circle?
TC also has a lot about the basics of a circle.
I shook my head. “Breaking the circle isn’t just a physical process. It’s an act of choice, of will—and these things don’t have that.”
I had to restrain myself from smacking my forehead with the heel of my hand. “Because someone summoned them from the Nevernever,” I said. “Their summoner, wherever he is, is giving them orders.”
“Could he break the circle?” Murphy asked.
“Yeah,” I said. “Easily.”
Circles of power are basic stuff, really. Practically anyone can make one if they know how to do it, and learning how to properly establish a circle is the first thing any apprentice is taught. Circles create boundaries that isolate the area inside from the magical energies of the world outside. That’s why Binder’s minions couldn’t cross the plane of the circle I’d drawn on the ground—their bodies were made up of ectoplasm, held into a solid form by magical energy. The circle cut off that energy when they tried to cross it.
As it sprang to life at my apprentice’s will, Molly’s circle did the same thing as mine—only this time the grey suits were inside it. As the energy field rose up, it cut off the grey suits from the flow of energy they needed to maintain their solid forms.
And suddenly the next best thing to forty demonic thugs collapsed into splatters of transparent gook.
Binder let out a cry as it happened, spinning around desperately, mumbling some kind of incantation under his breath—but he should have saved himself the effort. If he wanted them back, he would have to get out of the isolating field of the enormous circle first, and then he would have to start from scratch.
It kicked and struggled wildly—and then changed tactics. It rolled up to a desperate crouch, extended a single talon, and swept it around in a circle, carving a furrow into the rock. It touched the circle with its will, and I felt it when the simple magical construct sprang up and cut off the noose spell from its source of power: me. The silver cord shimmered and vanished.
Also, beings on the level of the Erlking and Titania seemed to be able to break circles with force of will in a pinch. Somewhere in SmF, Harry talks about the Archive being able to break free if there was a small flaw in the greater circle on DR.
As a general rule, I would say that circles aren't great catch all defense strategies. They're only effective in limited circumstances. That being said, it would probably be a good idea to make sure everybody is on the same page about those limits beforehand if possible. Differences in expectations and understanding can be harder to handle after the fact.
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I was under the impression that free will is required to break a circle, even with a physical object. Bob didn't seem to break Harry's circle in StF when he threw the escape potion to him. Do ghouls have free will enough to break a circle?
TC also has a lot about the basics of a circle.
Also, beings on the level of the Erlking and Titania seemed to be able to break circles with force of will in a pinch. Somewhere in SmF, Harry talks about the Archive being able to break free if there was a small flaw in the greater circle on DR.
As a general rule, I would say that circles aren't great catch all defense strategies. They're only effective in limited circumstances.
That's pretty much what I told them and they were still livid. I didn't know we had that much of a difference in interpretation of the story info...
But I'm basically right? If an "accidental" (Harry and Susan in the basement circle vs. Toad Demon, or Harry and Murphy in the storage facility circle in TC) crossing can bring one down, then a free will act can do so... much the way Binder threatened to do in TC, yes?
That being said, it would probably be a good idea to make sure everybody is on the same page about those limits beforehand if possible. Differences in expectations and understanding can be harder to handle after the fact.
Isn't that God's own truth...? ???
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That's pretty much what I told them and they were still livid. I didn't know we had that much of a difference in interpretation of the story info...
But I'm basically right? If an "accidental" (Harry and Susan in the basement circle vs. Toad Demon, or Harry and Murphy in the storage facility circle in TC) crossing can bring one down, then a free will act can do so... much the way Binder threatened to do in TC, yes?
Isn't that God's own truth...? ???
The best chance of them getting the right of it would be that the ghouls aren't mortal enough to have the free will to break a circle. Blampires probably couldn't based on them not being able to cross thresholds. Reds could go either way, and whites could probably break one physically. In any case, the sorcerer could take an action himself to break the circle with a pebble going by what's been set up in the novels.
It seems that your group is envisioning circles like Harry's shield domes. They could try doing something like that as a block if they want to be able to take a few seconds to get ready for a fight, but it would take more effort stress-wise for that kind of spell.
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The best chance of them getting the right of it would be that the ghouls aren't mortal enough to have the free will to break a circle. Blampires probably couldn't based on them not being able to cross thresholds. Reds could go either way, and whites could probably break one physically. In any case, the sorcerer could take an action himself to break the circle with a pebble going by what's been set up in the novels.
It seems that your group is envisioning circles like Harry's shield domes. They could try doing something like that as a block if they want to be able to take a few seconds to get ready for a fight, but it would take more effort stress-wise for that kind of spell.
This is my take as well. Circles in general operate on the Threshold and Ward rules, which are spelled out fairly well as such things go. It wouldnt be as comprehensive a protection as they seem to think it is, regardless, but what they are after would be possible, if more difficult than a basic blood & chalk-line circle.
For the purposes of your specific game, it all comes down to whether ghouls are mortal enough to have souls and free will, if the answer is yes you played it right, but ever after they are mortals and leave corpses and can be soulgazed and redeemed and get Christmas cards and all that other stuff real people get but monster-fodder dont. If they arent, then they can throw objects through a basic circle but it wouldnt bring it down. But, as others pointed out the sorcerer could still do the exact same thing.
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I had the ghoul break the circle because he went before the sorcerer... let's face it ghouls are predators and aren't really all that stupid. Their native cunning on top of long lives added to a great deal of experience with other supernatural entities would... I felt... give them enough knowledge of circle basics to know how to break one... and yes, I put my ghouls into the "mortal" category. They can die like any other mortal creature; guns, knives, etc. can do the trick... they're just tougher than most. They're "creatures of the NN", and they have a "Catch" ability - but that catch isn't a limitation on what can kill them... they have their own physical bodies and don't require an ectoplasmic construct to walk around in like demons, and such. They also have decision making capacities (however low their willpower might be). So... free will and therefore mortal.
If the ghouls hadn't been present, or if another creature that couldn't disturb a circle had been present, I would have waited for the sorcerer to act and had him lob an object at high speed at the circle not only breaking it, but using the objects speed/mass potential to do damage anyway. It was six of one half-dozen of the other from my view.
It wasn't who broke the circle that was the issue, or necessarily even how ... it was that the circle was broken at all. Yes, they seem to think of it like Harry's shield bracelet and no amount of cajoling on my part could get them to accept otherwise. I cited multiple examples from the books...hell, I even read them the passage from TC with Binder to underscore their error... and was talking to a brick wall.
I'm still working on them. I just find it horribly frustrating.
Thanks for the input, though. Maybe if I show them this, they'll finally lighten up.
/sigh
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If they arent, then they can throw objects through a basic circle but it wouldnt bring it down. But, as others pointed out the sorcerer could still do the exact same thing.
If free will was a factor, it isn't the fact that rocks thrown by ghouls don't break the circle, it's the fact that ghouls literally choose not to throw rocks through the circle in the first place. It's so ingrained in their psyche that they can't break a circle so they would never try.
The circle (assuming they had time in the middle of a combat to make one) should have been a 'block against spell casting'. In which case, nothing would be hindered by it except spellcasting. If it was a 'block against attacks', then any attack could break it.
I wouldn't allow a sorcerer to break the circle for free on the same round he cast. At the very least, he'd have to make a maneuver to break it. Then, on his next turn, attack. Or, even if the ghoul had the free will to break it, they'd need to beat a difficulty.
If the ghouls had no free will, then the ghoul should receive a FP against its High Concept to keep it from doing something to break the circle. (since it has no free will, it can't turn down the compel)
It wasn't who broke the circle that was the issue, or necessarily even how ... it was that the circle was broken at all. Yes, they seem to think of it like Harry's shield bracelet and no amount of cajoling on my part could get them to accept otherwise. I cited multiple examples from the books...hell, I even read them the passage from TC with Binder to underscore their error... and was talking to a brick wall
Mechanically though, a block is a block is a block.
If the block could be bypassed by throwing a pebble through it, that's a compel on the wizard who created it, IMO. Maybe it's a compel on her blind spot Aspect, maybe it's a City Aspect. But to completely bypass a block without a roll should be a compel, I think.
But, a circle certainly isn't a full-proof safe zone. It's a block.
Edit: I see why the players were upset and why they think the mechanics are bad. The mechanics DO take these kinds of things into account: compels. So, I think they are mistaken on that matter.
That being said, I think everyone would have been much happier if you'd offered the Wizard a FP before you blasted her. Then she'd have had the choice to take the full damage or keep the circle. If she chose the former she'd have a shiny FP.
In any case, having the choice would have smoothed things. (Speaking of Free Will)
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That may be the answer that sways them... None of us considered the compel angle.
Thanks, you may have saved my game.
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Rules-wise, the game has surprisingly little to say about circles. There are tons of equally valid and viable approaches to them.
But it should be clear how the circle will work when the Wizard chooses to draw it. Wizards know about this stuff, one shouldn't be surprised by a ghoul's ability to break the circle.
This is kind of a weird thing to cause such a serious problem, and it makes me suspect that your group is a bit of a powder keg. I think you should probably try to fix whatever makes it so easy for sessions to dissolve into rage. Otherwise you might be facing this kind of problem again in two months, over some other random detail, possibly in a different system and setting. (Unless this is really an anomaly for your table. I don't know your players, obviously.)
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Generally speaking, if the
block can affect more than one person, it can
only prevent one type of action. If the block only
affects one person, it can prevent several types of
action—up to all of them—as context permits.
You can’t use a block to prevent someone from
making a defense roll
Those are the rules for blocks. It's perfectly doable to set up a circle to block attacks from everyone, if that was their intention and they had the stats. If someone wished to break it. There are lots of variation of circles one could do. You could do one producing an intense wind around oneself, or a barrier of magical force or fire.
If you randomly decide people's stats don't matter that is a reason to be annoyed, although that level of reaction seems extreme.
One major concern when playing NPCs
occurs when you have PCs with Toughness
powers. Te temptation is to let any NPC
you want to be a serious threat have access
to the PC’s Catch, but if that happens every
time, then it’s sort of meaningless for that
PC to have Toughness powers in the frst
place. Likewise, if it never happens, then it’s
meaningless for that PC to have a Catch.
Te simple solution is to let the NPC do
what a PC would do when faced with the
same dilemma—make the NPC go through
the process of researching the PC, to whatever level of obscurity is necessary. If you
can justify the NPC’s access to the Catch
by a skill roll or other game action, it’s far
more likely to go over well with the players.
Tere’s no real reason for you to privilege
your NPCs in this regard—if they can fnd
out, then they can fnd out; if they can’t, they
can’t. You might even be able to turn that into
a confrontation of its own, as the NPC tries
to fnd out about the PC’s weakness, and the
PCs have a chance to thwart the effort
This is relevant for this situation. If you're going to let monsters ignore your wizard's powers because of your knowledge of dresden lore then people will get annoyed. Why spend the refresh becoming a wizard if their magic is useless because the GM has read more dresden books? If they want to pierce a particular circle then they should need to make a lore assessment roll (and normal stats ghouls aren't that smart and don't know in detail how magic works or have any lore so you buffed them a lot) and find a weakness.
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How you create a block has to make sense, though -- some things simply cannot impede certain other things.
If I wanted to block a linebacker from getting in a room, and I said I was doing this by turning on a hand-held fan and letting the air blow him away, no matter how well I roll, that fan is not going to keep 250 lbs of angry football player at bay.
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I think there's some confusion here. The Wizard in the group wasn't setting up any kind of specific Block circle, per se. She was merely throwing up basic circle like Harry does with for his tracking spell, or the kind that Harry taught Butters how to do in DB. It was meant as an "Oops!" reaction to seeing another spellcaster of unknown capability drawing a bead on her > toss up a generic circle to keep his spells out for an exchange or two and figure out what to do while "hiding" inside. It was put up as a generic circle so it reacted like a generic circle, including all the faults and frailties that go along with it. The problem came when I pointed out just exactly how faulty/fragile that circle was by eliminating it so easily.
It was their misconception of how the things worked. Even showing them their error didn't make them less unhappy.
The reaction is not typical of our group. In fact it's almost unique, which is why I came here for advice. They're all long term gamers (all between the ages of 35 and 60 and all of them gamers for 20+years each - with me a the top with 40 years). They're seasoned and stable.
I'm going to show them the above and see if they're ready to simmer down and pay attention. The mechanics explanations of optional ways to deal with similar situations in the future will be invaluable. Hopefully they'll take it as "lessons learned" both personally and in character and move on with the game.
Thanks again.
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Ah. Well, at most that'd be a taggable aspect to resist a spell. They should be careful to understand the mechanics. Circles have been busted
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I think there's some confusion here. The Wizard in the group wasn't setting up any kind of specific Block circle, per se. She was merely throwing up basic circle like Harry does with for his tracking spell, or the kind that Harry taught Butters how to do in DB. It was meant as an "Oops!" reaction to seeing another spellcaster of unknown capability drawing a bead on her > toss up a generic circle to keep his spells out for an exchange or two and figure out what to do while "hiding" inside. It was put up as a generic circle so it reacted like a generic circle, including all the faults and frailties that go along with it. The problem came when I pointed out just exactly how faulty/fragile that circle was by eliminating it so easily.
It was their misconception of how the things worked. Even showing them their error didn't make them less unhappy.
Ah. Well, at most that'd be a taggable aspect to resist a spell. They should be careful to understand the mechanics. Circles have been busted
I agree here. Or, simply, she could have spent a FP to compel the Sorcerer to be unable to attack her while she was in the circle. But she would also be unable to do anything through it.
When the rules butt heads with narrative, I think compels solve a lot of issues.
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When the rules butt heads with narrative, I think compels solve a lot of issues.
It's looking like that's going to have to become Gospel at our table. ;D
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I think a key thing to remember is that power comes at a cost. If you want to force someone to behave in a certain way, you need to either have stats high enough to force them or prep the environment enough to stop them (with rolls of stats or force points to make declarations) or spend fate points to compel them. No free lunches for people, or free forcefields.
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... and it makes me suspect that your group is a bit of a powder keg. I think you should probably try to fix whatever makes it so easy for sessions to dissolve into rage. Otherwise you might be facing this kind of problem again in two months, over some other random detail, possibly in a different system and setting. (Unless this is really an anomaly for your table. I don't know your players, obviously.)
This, this, a thousand times this!
They may have seemed reasonable in other contexts, but they went nuclear over this issue. WHY?
Did they know the DF stories? How well?
The thing is, there was clearly a mismatch of expectations & understanding of what a circle is/does; a wizard, in-character, would know what a circle is/does, and wouldn't raise a circle expecting it to last in these circumstances.
Letting a PC do something in the clear player-expectation of ONE outcome, when the character would clearly expect something ELSE ... well, yeah. I'd cry foul, too.
If I'm GM'ing a game where "draw a magic circle of protection" ONLY protects against magic, AND can easily be mundanely-broken, AND there are Mundane combatants around to break it ... well, I'd feel obligated compelled :-] to offer the player a caution, "Your character would know that this circle can easily be broken by THIS or THAT combatant, if they know they SHOULD break it."
OTOH, if the player was familiar with the stories, then I'd presume they already knew this, and were doing some tactical/strategic thing (and wouldn't bother with the caution).
Given this level of misunderstanding, I'd do a serious run-through of game mechanics and setting-expectations.
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It's looking like that's going to have to become Gospel at our table. ;D
There's a reason it's in my signature.
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This, this, a thousand times this!
They may have seemed reasonable in other contexts, but they went nuclear over this issue. WHY?
Did they know the DF stories? How well?
The thing is, there was clearly a mismatch of expectations & understanding of what a circle is/does; a wizard, in-character, would know what a circle is/does, and wouldn't raise a circle expecting it to last in these circumstances.
Letting a PC do something in the clear player-expectation of ONE outcome, when the character would clearly expect something ELSE ... well, yeah. I'd cry foul, too.
If I'm GM'ing a game where "draw a magic circle of protection" ONLY protects against magic, AND can easily be mundanely-broken, AND there are Mundane combatants around to break it ... well, I'd feel obligated compelled :-] to offer the player a caution, "Your character would know that this circle can easily be broken by THIS or THAT combatant, if they know they SHOULD break it."
OTOH, if the player was familiar with the stories, then I'd presume they already knew this, and were doing some tactical/strategic thing (and wouldn't bother with the caution).
Given this level of misunderstanding, I'd do a serious run-through of game mechanics and setting-expectations.
All the players know the stories, they've read all the full books through SG as well as Side Jobs. It's partly a matter of their misinterpretation of what JB's told us through Harry about how circles work, even with examples in the stories (like Binder in TC) and partly a matter of my thinking they did understand.
None of them are on this board and haven't dived nearly as deeply as I have. In game terms, I guess I'd be somewhere between Chest Deep and Submerged (given some of the real power players here)... but my players might barely qualify as Feet In The Water; they're read the stories but don't do re-reads. When a new volume comes out they want to read it, but don't lose sleep at night in anticipation. They don't take notes, compose theories or any of that. They just read and play the game.
When this broke it was really an eye-opener - for all of us - about what we've read vs. what we think we remember/understand. When the balloon goes up they're used to a much faster pace melee and want to get to the gory and nitty gritty asap. DFRPG can take some thought and consideration to set things up, get the parameters right, etc. Sometimes they launch without thinking it all through and find themselves in a bad place. Most of the time it's actually provided some very interesting table time watching them dig themselves out of the hole. This time, however, it went sour with a vengeance.
As I said, I'm going to show them all of the above (this Vet's Day weekend we have the next game session) before we start play and have some talk-it-over time. With what's been presented I think they're going to be good with it.