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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Glythrandil on June 24, 2010, 09:39:44 PM

Title: Biomancy Question
Post by: Glythrandil on June 24, 2010, 09:39:44 PM

 I have an idea to create a physical adept type of character. Some of you may be familiar with Shadowrun and how the physical adepts in that system could use magic to augment their physical abilities for a time. How realistic is it to do this with biomancy? Basically I would be looking at increased strength and speed for the duration of a scene. I am not sure if even the lower level powers for these two would be realistic since we are still talking about augmenting the human body.
Any ideas on how to go about this would be appreciated.  :)
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: DFJunkie on June 24, 2010, 09:50:19 PM
Honestly I, as a GM, would allow a character with the Focused Practitioner (Biomancy) to buy the various Inhuman Whatever powers, with the fact that said practitioner has spent years tinkering with his/her body and reinforcing it with magic.  A good catch for toughness/recovery powers would be magic, as magical attacks could disrupt the enhancements.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: John Galt on June 24, 2010, 09:53:49 PM
It's Fate.  All styles of magic are basically the same.  Just roll conviction and discipline to do a weapon whatever attack and when you complete the attack claim it was your fist.  Put aspects on yourself using magic fight with a fists skill.  It'd probably make the most sense to claim it was spirit or air magic though for satisfying catches.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: AsaTJ on June 24, 2010, 10:22:21 PM
I have a standing rule that players can use magic to replicate other supernatural powers with a spell complexity of (Refresh cost of mimiced powers x 2) + 2.  So Inhuman Speed would be (2 x 2) + 2= 6 Complexity for one exchange of effect.  Generally I keep a tight leash on this because it could become very overpowered very fast, and it by no means allows you to replicate any power.  Just those that I deem appropriate.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: wyvern on June 24, 2010, 10:41:43 PM
There was a fairly hefty thread discussing more or less this question a couple weeks back; the general consensus was that there was no general consensus, and you'd have to work with your GM to figure out the best way to stat your specific character for your specific game.  (A lot of people, myself included, had opinions that they thought were simple, straightforward, and "obvious".  Many of these opinions conflicted.  Apply your own common sense, whatever that may be.)

It's still got some good ideas in it, though.  Here's the link: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18533.0.html
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 24, 2010, 10:53:31 PM
For something that actually works like a Physical Adept from Shadowrun mechanically, you just buy stuff like Claws, Inhuman Speed, and other things like that with an appropriate justification [possibly with Feeding Restriction (Magical Energy)].

For something more short-term and higher powered (damage-wise), combine or replace this with Channeling and/or Ritual.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: AsaTJ on June 24, 2010, 11:01:37 PM
Yeah, I'm not into the whole "just buy the other powers" philosophy that a lot of people in the DFRPG community seem to point to.  If you need to cast a spell to use them, you should at least get a refresh discount- if not just make them free.  The costs in the book assume "always on" or "always available," and it's not fair or balanced to make a wizard pay full price for them.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Deadmanwalking on June 24, 2010, 11:15:21 PM
Well, if you need to do it with a Ritual, then use the Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting rules (see YS. p. 283 and 92) and pay for the powers with Tags.

Or take Human Form [+2] requiring a fifteen minute ritual to activate it. And/or Feeding Dependency (Magical Energy).


But none of that is what this guy asked for. Physical Adepts in Shadowrun have their powers on all the time, and no magical powers aside from the physical enhancement, so they'd just buy powers.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: AsaTJ on June 25, 2010, 12:23:06 AM
Quote from: Deadmanwalking on June 24, 2010, 11:15:21 PM
Physical Adepts in Shadowrun have their powers on all the time, and no magical powers aside from the physical enhancement, so they'd just buy powers.
Ah, okay.  I fail for not knowing much about the setting he's trying to replicate.  >_<
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Glythrandil on June 25, 2010, 10:53:08 AM

  Thanks for the input everyone!  You have given me exactly what I was looking for.  :)
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: kihon on July 29, 2010, 03:01:19 PM
I guess the question to answer - could a wizard ever stand toe to toe with a supernatural, say a vampire, in a fist fight?  Not using his magic, per se -- but using his martial arts skills -- biomancy enhanced, and then just beat the vamp?

Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: ashern on July 29, 2010, 04:04:51 PM
Quote from: kihon on July 29, 2010, 03:01:19 PM
I guess the question to answer - could a wizard ever stand toe to toe with a supernatural, say a vampire, in a fist fight?  Not using his magic, per se -- but using his martial arts skills -- biomancy enhanced, and then just beat the vamp?




In the Dresden setting?  No.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: wyvern on July 29, 2010, 04:14:45 PM
Quote from: ashern on July 29, 2010, 04:04:51 PM

In the Dresden setting?  No.

Actually, I'd argue *yes*.  Any of the wizards we've seen?  Maybe not.  But think about it - how long do wizards live?  If one decided to spend a half-dozen decades learning martial arts styles, they'd definitely come out with enough skill to just plain beat, say, your average ghoul.
The real question, of course, is why a wizard would spend that much time and effort honing mundane skills when they could just smash the ghoul with lightning and put an end to it in one action.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: ballplayer72 on July 29, 2010, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: wyvern on July 29, 2010, 04:14:45 PM
Actually, I'd argue *yes*.  Any of the wizards we've seen?  Maybe not.  But think about it - how long do wizards live?  If one decided to spend a half-dozen decades learning martial arts styles, they'd definitely come out with enough skill to just plain beat, say, your average ghoul.
The real question, of course, is why a wizard would spend that much time and effort honing mundane skills when they could just smash the ghoul with lightning and put an end to it in one action.

i mean it could be done but you'd have to self transform alot of stuff.  Muscles, bone, tendons, joints, organs all of that would have to be changed and reinforced for something like speed or strength or toughness.     

Most wizards who go the melee route seem to just take true shapeshifting and turn into a giant wolf/bear/cat etc instead of tweaking their real body.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 29, 2010, 04:41:19 PM
Quote from: wyvern on July 29, 2010, 04:14:45 PM
Actually, I'd argue *yes*.  Any of the wizards we've seen?  Maybe not.  But think about it - how long do wizards live?  If one decided to spend a half-dozen decades learning martial arts styles, they'd definitely come out with enough skill to just plain beat, say, your average ghoul.
The real question, of course, is why a wizard would spend that much time and effort honing mundane skills when they could just smash the ghoul with lightning and put an end to it in one action.

Different style perhaps?  We don't know much about the spellcasters of Asia, for example.  Even Ancient Mai hasn't really done much.  Perhaps they mix magic into their martial arts.

Also, I'd say it would be one way of defending yourself with magic that wouldn't violate the Laws.  Say I use some Geomancy to place the GROUNDED Aspect on myself, tag it while using Redirected Force to DISABLE them, then take them out using Fists.  I don't think that would count as a 1st Law violation.  Biomancy could do something similar with an ADRENALINE RUSH Manuever.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: kihon on July 29, 2010, 05:25:06 PM
The origional poster was talking about a Physical Adept - from the ShadowRun Setting.  So I was just wondering - if a biomancy type enhanced character would be able to stand against a vamp or another supernatural?  It seems that there is some disagreement, and perhaps the best answer is why?  Why not just lightning bolt them?  Good question, and perhaps only the first poster could answer it.  Maybe that's just how he sees his character?
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: luminos on July 29, 2010, 05:40:16 PM
Perhaps you could model this idea with a feeding dependency variant.  Give the character the various physical powers they want, under a biomantically themed feeding dependency to represent the fact they have to recharge the enhancements if they overclock them.  And the fact that feeding dependency checks are only made if you used the powers in a scene, it flavors well with the idea that activating the powers only last a scene.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Doc Nova on July 29, 2010, 05:47:13 PM
If one were to approve of the concept of a Shadowrun-esque physical adept (and I, personally, can't see why the concept couldn't be worked into a Dresden game), then going with their notion of lethal unarmed strikes, superhuman speed, strength, and durability, I can't see any reason why said character couldn't kick the bejeebus out of a vampire, red, white, black, blue, pink, or green (power ranger vampires, go!).  If Kincaid and Murphy can shoot them and Michael can slice them, what's wrong with some mystically-powered wuxia do some butt kicking?  I'd be all for it...heck, might even throw some bystander in there to shout out "FINISH THEM!" at the right moment.

That isn't to say it'd be an easy task, vampires are hardly pushovers, particularly in the brawling/melee department (as has been aptly demonstrated several times in the novels), but I can't see a reason why they couldn't try, and possibly succeed.  
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: ashern on July 29, 2010, 09:16:50 PM
Quote from: Doc Nova on July 29, 2010, 05:47:13 PM
If Kincaid and Murphy can shoot them and Michael can slice them, what's wrong with some mystically-powered wuxia do some butt kicking?  I'd be all for it...heck, might even throw some bystander in there to shout out "FINISH THEM!" at the right moment.

This is my personal opinion.  If you want to have super kung fu, and you want to be human, go find a different system.  It doesn't fit the spell slinging, modern urban pulpy feel that is dresden to me.

Now, on the other hand, if you were to be a ghoul ninja...  ;D
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Doc Nova on July 29, 2010, 09:27:01 PM
Personally, I don't see much difference in the way the book characters have been presented in their melee mayhem and a supernaturally-powered martial artist.  Now, the over-the-top full on wuxia might take it too  far and it might need to be toned down, but some of the combat sequences in the more recent novels certainly seem to be eyeing "epic" in both concept and proportion. 
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Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Ophidimancer on July 29, 2010, 11:11:44 PM
I think I would allow an extremely well trained martial artist, someone who has devoted their entire life to the martial arts, to be basically the equivalent of a Minor Talent and take up to -2 Refresh in Powers.  Obviously I wouldn't allow the more magical of powers, but the first level of the Speed, Strength, or Toughness powers might be possible, though the Toughness might better be represented by Mortal Stunts.  Maybe Cloak of Shadows.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: toturi on July 30, 2010, 02:58:25 AM
He could just use the scion "build your own character" template - he's a reincarnated arhat or a very focused practitioner that can only manifest his powers in "always-on rotes".
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: Wyrdrune on July 30, 2010, 07:00:46 AM
Quote
(and I, personally, can't see why the concept couldn't be worked into a Dresden game)

well, i do not really see the need for it either, but if the heart of one of my player were attached to it... maybe there's a secret ninja sect dedicated to fighting vampires, demons and the forces of darkness.
Title: Re: Biomancy Question
Post by: kihon on July 30, 2010, 07:52:25 PM
Even in the rpg books it mentions that wizards from around the world would view things differently than Harry does.  He's pretty much a typcial western wizard - even his choice of items (wand, staff, ring, etc...).  They use ancient mai as an example who would be very different in her approach to magic.

My understanding of the PC is that his character grew up with the martial arts, spent time in the military, got out and discovered a larger world (which in character development explained things that happened to him in the past).  His mentor is a wizard of the white council and he's "classically" trained, so very versitle, but he still relies on old habits.

I think he's going for the "spirit/force" effects to manifest through his punching and kicking, plus having the ability to lay down a zone wide effect when mulitple  bad guys show up.