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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Cenphx on January 25, 2013, 06:26:18 PM

Title: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on January 25, 2013, 06:26:18 PM
         When I read the end of CD and Maeve mentions that she will not be Mab’s falcon anymore, I realized that it was at least the third similar reference I felt like I could remember reading in TDF. I knew that there was some poem out there about how the center cannot hold and things fall apart, about entropy and the end of the world. Finally I decided to figure it out. Here is the poem—it’s from William Butler Yeats and it’s titled “The Second Coming”:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

         Doesn't this sound like it could be applied to the DF apocalpyse? I’m no Yeats scholar, but in a bit of googling I came across the fact that Yeats spent years crafting an elaborate, mystical theory of the universe. This theory issued in part from Yeats’s lifelong fascination with the occult and mystical. He believed that history can be laid out as two conical spirals, one inside the other, so that the widest part of one of the spirals rings around the narrowest part of the other spiral, and vice versa. Yeats believed that this image (he called the spirals “gyres”) captured the contrary motions inherent in history. Yeats believed that the world was on the threshold of an apocalypse, as history reached the end of the outer gyre and began moving along the inner gyre. In other words, the world’s trajectory along the gyre of science and democracy was coming apart, like the frantically widening flight of the falcon that has lost contact with the falconer; the next age will take its character not from the gyre of science and democracy, but something else entirely and opposite. Of course, the poem was written around 1921 and so likely had more to do with WW1 than predicting the DF apocalypse to come  :D, but it’s kind of cool to think about the possibility that Yeats, like the DF version of Stoker and Lovecraft, may have understood more than the rest of the world.

         Also, rather than just being a sad echo of my days as an english major, I started this thread to see if anyone picked up on these or other references. IIRC, Murphy said something to Harry in SF or FM about how the center cannot hold. I think Harry mentions “falcons and falconers” at some point, but I have no idea where. And then we have Maeve in CD telling Mab she will not be her falcon anymore.

        Are there anymore potential “The Second Coming” references in the Dresden Files? Anyone care to formulate a WAG about Yeats being prophetic??


EDIT: see Reply 9 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36667.msg1760472.html#msg1760472) for the first reference, from Storm Front
EDIT 2: see Reply 27 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36667.msg1772712.html#msg1772712) for Murphy's quote to Harry in Small Favor

Links added -Serack
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: SAZ on January 25, 2013, 06:42:38 PM
Cool - thanks for that.

I wonder if within the DV if Yeats got himself killed like Lovecraft did?
Just kidding.

Cheers
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on January 25, 2013, 06:47:01 PM
Haha, funny you should ask! I googled that too and it seems like Yeats died a natural death, but he did have, what you might call, a VERY active sex life at the end there. White court influence, anyone??
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Mira on January 25, 2013, 06:50:14 PM
  I could be wrong, but I seem to remember the quote "the center cannot hold,"  maybe in Death Masks or one of the earlier books.  Yeah, I think you are on to something. Also "The ceremony of innocence is drowned;"  Could that be when the Red King tried to sacrifice little Maggie?
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: 123456789blaaa on January 25, 2013, 06:54:01 PM
This a VERY interesting find. You are amazing Cenphx  :D.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 25, 2013, 07:30:01 PM
Quoting "The Second Coming" is pretty much a trope of realish-world apocalyptic fiction settings, sfaict; my favourite riff on it is in GRRM's The Armageddon Rag.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: breck on January 25, 2013, 08:09:47 PM
End of storm front has the first mentions of falcons and falconers and the center cannot hold. I was a criminal justice major i somehow missed a lot of yeats work so i was surprised when i looked it up after reading storm front, which is why i can recall it, but not quote it.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Quaras on January 25, 2013, 10:14:32 PM
Would also throw in Shakespeare's Ulysses speech as very closely tied...

ULYSSES
Troy, yet upon his basis, had been down,
And the great Hector's sword had lack'd a master,
But for these instances.
The specialty of rule hath been neglected:
And, look, how many Grecian tents do stand
Hollow upon this plain, so many hollow factions.
When that the general is not like the hive
To whom the foragers shall all repair,
What honey is expected? Degree being vizarded,
The unworthiest shows as fairly in the mask.
The heavens themselves, the planets and this centre
Observe degree, priority and place,
Insisture, course, proportion, season, form,
Office and custom, in all line of order;
And therefore is the glorious planet Sol
In noble eminence enthroned and sphered
Amidst the other; whose medicinable eye
Corrects the ill aspects of planets evil,
And posts, like the commandment of a king,
Sans cheque to good and bad: but when the planets
In evil mixture to disorder wander,
What plagues and what portents! what mutiny!
What raging of the sea! shaking of earth!
Commotion in the winds! frights, changes, horrors,
Divert and crack, rend and deracinate
The unity and married calm of states
Quite from their fixure! O, when degree is shaked,
Which is the ladder to all high designs,
Then enterprise is sick! How could communities,
Degrees in schools and brotherhoods in cities,
Peaceful commerce from dividable shores,
The primogenitive and due of birth,
Prerogative of age, crowns, sceptres, laurels,
But by degree, stand in authentic place?
Take but degree away, untune that string,
And, hark, what discord follows! each thing meets
In mere oppugnancy: the bounded waters
Should lift their bosoms higher than the shores
And make a sop of all this solid globe:
Strength should be lord of imbecility,
And the rude son should strike his father dead:
Force should be right; or rather, right and wrong,
Between whose endless jar justice resides,
Should lose their names, and so should justice too.
Then every thing includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite, an universal wolf,
So doubly seconded with will and power,
Must make perforce an universal prey,
And last eat up himself. Great Agamemnon,
This chaos, when degree is suffocate,
Follows the choking.
And this neglection of degree it is
That by a pace goes backward, with a purpose
It hath to climb. The general's disdain'd
By him one step below, he by the next,
That next by him beneath; so every step,
Exampled by the first pace that is sick
Of his superior, grows to an envious fever
Of pale and bloodless emulation:
And 'tis this fever that keeps Troy on foot,
Not her own sinews. To end a tale of length,
Troy in our weakness stands, not in her strength.

Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on January 25, 2013, 11:12:05 PM
Quoting "The Second Coming" is pretty much a trope of realish-world apocalyptic fiction settings, sfaict; my favourite riff on it is in GRRM's The Armageddon Rag.
Yeah, I've definitely seen the lines about "things fall apart" and "the center cannot hold" just about everywhere. But references like these feel like easter eggs for english majors.  :D I also think its interesting that as far back as Storm Front, the characters could tell something big and world-changing was coming. Though maybe human beings always feel like the end is nigh, who knows.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: marc baggins on January 26, 2013, 03:03:42 AM
From the last page of Storm Front, 227 in the Wizard for Hire omnibus edition.

The world is getting weirder.  Darker every single day.  Things are spinning around faster and faster, and threatening to go completely awry.  Falcons and falconers.  The center cannot hold.

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have the Dresdenverse's earliest Second Coming reference.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: psuliin on January 26, 2013, 03:20:14 AM
OK, I have to ask something. I know that "BAT" refers to the series finale in 4 or 5 books. But what do the letters stand for?
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Second Aristh on January 26, 2013, 03:23:27 AM
OK, I have to ask something. I know that "BAT" refers to the series finale in 4 or 5 books. But what do the letters stand for?
Canonically, "Big Apocalyptic Trilogy", but in my head, I substitute that with "Badass trilogy" ;D
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Mira on January 27, 2013, 03:13:07 AM
Quote
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
  Harry admits to having little faith, save in his magic... 
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: rekshek on January 27, 2013, 04:15:43 AM
I'm oing to blame my missing this on the fact I haven't read SF since MU freshmen year of college, but still as an English major whose two favorite poets were yeats and Frost sad I missed this.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Jersey on January 27, 2013, 01:52:10 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have the Dresdenverse's earliest Second Coming reference.

Either that or Harry read Yeats.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: wizard nelson on January 27, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
From the last page of Storm Front, 227 in the Wizard for Hire omnibus edition.

The world is getting weirder.  Darker every single day.  Things are spinning around faster and faster, and threatening to go completely awry.  Falcons and falconers.  The center cannot hold.

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have the Dresdenverse's earliest Second Coming reference.
not an english buff, never read yeats, but that page seemed odder than heck when i read it.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Elegast on January 27, 2013, 10:14:56 PM
         When I read the end of CD and Maeve mentions that she will not be Mab’s falcon anymore, I realized that it was at least the third similar reference I felt like I could remember reading in TDF. I knew that there was some poem out there about how the center cannot hold and things fall apart, about entropy and the end of the world. Finally I decided to figure it out. Here is the poem—it’s from William Butler Yeats and it’s titled “The Second Coming”:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

         Doesn't this sound like it could be applied to the DF apocalpyse? I’m no Yeats scholar, but in a bit of googling I came across the fact that Yeats spent years crafting an elaborate, mystical theory of the universe. This theory issued in part from Yeats’s lifelong fascination with the occult and mystical. He believed that history can be laid out as two conical spirals, one inside the other, so that the widest part of one of the spirals rings around the narrowest part of the other spiral, and vice versa. Yeats believed that this image (he called the spirals “gyres”) captured the contrary motions inherent in history. Yeats believed that the world was on the threshold of an apocalypse, as history reached the end of the outer gyre and began moving along the inner gyre. In other words, the world’s trajectory along the gyre of science and democracy was coming apart, like the frantically widening flight of the falcon that has lost contact with the falconer; the next age will take its character not from the gyre of science and democracy, but something else entirely and opposite. Of course, the poem was written around 1921 and so likely had more to do with WW1 than predicting the DF apocalypse to come  :D, but it’s kind of cool to think about the possibility that Yeats, like the DF version of Stoker and Lovecraft, may have understood more than the rest of the world.

         Also, rather than just being a sad echo of my days as an english major, I started this thread to see if anyone picked up on these or other references. IIRC, Murphy said something to Harry in SF or FM about how the center cannot hold. I think Harry mentions “falcons and falconers” at some point, but I have no idea where. And then we have Maeve in CD telling Mab she will not be her falcon anymore.

        Are there anymore potential “The Second Coming” references in the Dresden Files? Anyone care to formulate a WAG about Yeats being prophetic??

That's so cool.  8)
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: madness on January 27, 2013, 10:28:17 PM
Thanks for this thread.  The first half dozen lines of the poem were familiar to me but I am not sure that I had read the entire thing before.

I wonder if Yeats was the first in literature to use the phrase 'the center can not hold' or if he was referencing something older.  I have seen the concept referenced all over the place - I would have guessed that it was a much older phrase.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Elegast on January 27, 2013, 10:56:28 PM
It was already on Wikipedia...  :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Second_Coming_(poem)&diff=522176648&oldid=521430009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Second_Coming_(poem)&diff=522176648&oldid=521430009)

Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on January 28, 2013, 03:03:33 AM
I wonder if Yeats was the first in literature to use the phrase 'the center can not hold' or if he was referencing something older.  I have seen the concept referenced all over the place - I would have guessed that it was a much older phrase.

I don't think Yeats was referencing anything earlier, and I used to be pretty well up on this,  Making up things that sound so right you believe they've always been around is the mark of a great poet; a really remarkable number of common English phrases were made up from whole cloth by Shakespeare.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Jersey on January 28, 2013, 03:41:15 PM
It was already on Wikipedia...  :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Second_Coming_(poem)&diff=522176648&oldid=521430009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Second_Coming_(poem)&diff=522176648&oldid=521430009)

Well if it's on Wikipedia then it must be true  :)
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on January 29, 2013, 09:28:53 PM
Thanks for the props! :)

And I know that everyone does multiple rereads of the series, so if anyone comes across other references like these, will you come back here and post them? I will add them into the opening post like I did when marc baggins found the quote for the first reference. I’ll keep an eye out too…
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cyberchihuahua on January 30, 2013, 05:17:01 AM
"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer"


Maeve had stopped listening to Mab, and started listening to Nemesis.

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"


Sums up Cowl nicely, Nemesis as well.

"The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned"


The Fomor stealing innocent practitioners, those with a magical bloodline.

You could find parallels throughout, but I would also add that Harry has often been referred to as a fulcrum, or "In the center", directing the turn of events.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: OZ on January 30, 2013, 05:36:54 AM
Either that or Harry read Yeats.

That was what I thought when I read the end of Storm Front.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: wizard nelson on February 01, 2013, 09:03:50 AM
Quote
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"
actually that should refer to earth and its sphere of reality having anarchy loosed upon it. as we should know if we've been reading our wojs' earth is the center of the dresdenverse. funny choice of words, Mere. like its merely anarchy?
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: wizard nelson on February 02, 2013, 09:26:54 AM
Quote
 When I read the end of CD and Maeve mentions that she will not be Mab’s falcon anymore, I realized that it was at least the third similar reference I felt like I could remember reading in TDF.
so we have SF last page and CD maeves conversation, what was number 3?
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on February 02, 2013, 03:26:30 PM
I think its something Murphy says to Harry in one of the early books somewhere. Its at a crime scene and she says something like 'the center cannot hold'. I try looking today for the specific quote
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 02, 2013, 03:43:05 PM
I think its something Murphy says to Harry in one of the early books somewhere. Its at a crime scene and she says something like 'the center cannot hold'. I try looking today for the specific quote

Quote from: Small Favour Chapter 46
She gave me a faint smile. "It's just...the center cannot hold, Harry. I think things are starting to fall apart. I can't see it, and I can't prove it, but I know it." She shook her head. "Maybe I'm just losing my mind."

Here you go.

And anyone who hasn't gone and liked the Evil Hat Facebook page that I've linked in my sig (that includes you, lurkers), please go do so now. We only need 7 likes and we get a new teaser for the next volume of the Dresden Files rpg.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on February 02, 2013, 04:12:16 PM
Thanks very much for the quote, TCF. I wouldve been looking forever since I would have started waaay too early in the series.                   I jumped on Facebook yesterday to like your page. Good luck with the last few 'likes' you need. Also, did you see Jim was active on the forum last night? Maybe he'll check out your page too :)
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: TheCuriousFan on February 02, 2013, 04:15:45 PM
Thanks very much for the quote, TCF. I wouldve been looking forever since I would have started waaay too early in the series.                   I jumped on Facebook yesterday to like your page. Good luck with the last few 'likes' you need. Also, did you see Jim was active on the forum last night? Maybe he'll check out your page too :)

It's not my page, it['s Evil Hat's (the guys and girls who made the rpg) page. If they get 1800 likes we get another Paranet Papers teaser.

Still, thank you for contributing your bit, only six more likes to go.
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Bones on February 02, 2013, 04:32:47 PM
This is very cool! Thanks for posting Cenphx.  :)
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Cenphx on February 02, 2013, 05:01:03 PM
@TCF - oh, I thought maybe you were affiliated with Evil Hat in some way. Im kinda seeing Fred Hicks/Evil Hat everywhere lately. He was in the acknowledgements of a CE Murphy book I just read. Go Fred!                                @Bones - thanks! Even if they dont always give us some idea of the story arc in TDF, finding the other works Jim is referencing is kinda fun. 
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: Gman on February 03, 2013, 05:33:25 AM
Yeah, I've definitely seen the lines about "things fall apart" and "the center cannot hold" just about everywhere. But references like these feel like easter eggs for english majors.  :D I also think its interesting that as far back as Storm Front, the characters could tell something big and world-changing was coming. Though maybe human beings always feel like the end is nigh, who knows.

The End Is Nigh is certainly true for Peabody. Harry and Morgan saw to that. ::)
Title: Re: References to Yeats' The Second Coming and the BAT (CD spoilers)
Post by: wizard nelson on March 03, 2013, 01:38:33 PM
The End Is Nigh is certainly true for Peabody. Harry and Morgan saw to that. ::)
i just found what could be a nice little clue.
Quote
Jim: The clock is ticking, and the clued people know it. /Especially/ to someone a couple of thousand years old, it really feels like we've already hit the two minute warning.
this could be a reference to the supposed gyre, a theoretical 2000 year period were time turns back on itself cylindricely and starts over.