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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: edf on May 24, 2018, 12:42:56 AM
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Didn't it seem odd that the first time Elaine was described (as a teen), she had a pentacle amulet identical to Harry's ? After that one paragraph in Fool Moon, it never seems to come up again.
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Almost before I was finished saying the word, Elaine murmured quietly, and the pentacle amulet she wore, nearly a twin to mine, began to glow with a green-white light. She held it overhead by its silver chain.
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Ok, so not forgotten - just rarely referenced. Are they commonplace or is there a reason why Harry, Elaine, and Thomas all seem to have one they inherited? Presumably they would all fit the crystal that maps the nevernever as well.
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We have a direct answer to that question:
2007 Huntington Beach B&N Q&A @4:55
In the early books you mention that Elaine has the same pentacle as Harry. Is that significant or have you changed your mind on?
No it's significant. There is a reason for that. Harry and Elaine come from the same philosophical background as far as magic is concerned... Or at least so he believes in any case. I guess we will have to see if Elaine thinks the same way. Who here has read White Knight so far? Yah, Elaine doesn't think exactly the same way as Harry when it comes to the use of magic, but at the same time though they are not exactly on a totally different page either. It's significant that they both have the same symbol. It says something about what they think and what they believe.
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We know his mom prepared gems to contain thing for Harry amulet. Could elain store similar items in her own version, and Harry could potentially access them due to their connection.
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We have a direct answer to that question:
It's a direct reply to the question, but while all answers to asked questions are replies, all replies are not answers. Harry has certain beliefs about what the pentacle in his amulet stands for; however, he didn't make the amulet himself. It was something he inherited from his mother. She didn't leave him any written instructions on how to interpret the symbol. Perhaps he learned this from studying with Ebenezer, we don't know for certain. It appears Elaine also inherited her amulet. We know nothing of her family or what she thinks her pentacle represents.
It's quite possible that Elaine also has a family member who is a member of the White Council. It could be that a number of wizards who were once friends, allies or shared a common philosophical belief system towards magic marked this relationship by wearing similar amulets. This would explain how Harry and Elaine came to have almost identical amulets.
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whats next declaring elaine long lost twin sister of harry? i will be watching the this.
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We know nothing of her family or what she thinks her pentacle represents.
The first part is true I guess, but the second is not because of that WOJ. It's equally possible that there was a Hot Topic near where they lived with Justin (who was the one to give both of them their actual first introductions to magic use, philosophic underpinnings (as much as practically required for the mental control at least), etc.
You could be right, dont get me wrong. But when directly asked this question the answer was specifically that he included it to illustrate their common magical background and a shared philosophy (within the bounds of the differences we saw in WN, which werent much). So it would, for example, mean that she can summon Faith-Light from it the same way harry does. But I think the bridge of "Harry's Necklace was inherited from a story-relevant Long-lost family so Elaine's must be too" is built of way more tinfoil.
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Thomas’s is identical to Harry’s, because their mom gave them to them. Elaine’s is very similar, because it’s a common symbol representing magic, hers may even have been based on Harry’s after the fact. There could be more to it than that, but there doesn’t have to be.
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and the pentacle amulet she wore, nearly a twin to mine, began to glow with a green-white light.
Didn't Harry's new staff build on Demon Reach also have a green-white light?
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Didn't Harry's new staff build on Demon Reach also have a green-white light?
Yes. It appears the color is associated with the source or type of power. Harry's is presumably from DR, who has the green glowing eyes.
Elaine's green could be due to her experience with the summer court. Or maybe she's got something else in her experience.
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I always assumed Harry created as a gift of love to Elaine when they were teenagers.
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I always assumed Harry created as a gift of love to Elaine when they were teenagers.
Well, he either had it made for her, or DuMorne had it made for her to help bind the two closer.
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Well, he either had it made for her, or DuMorne had it made for her to help bind the two closer.
Or like Dresden it came from her family...... Perhaps they belong to separate family lines of wizards that lead back to..... Merlin. Or their families belonged to a sect or a Council within the Council that had a religious type devotion to magic and it's importance similar to a KoTC.
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Did it ever say that Harry gave Elaine her amulet? If not, this may be a clue.
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No, he never mentions giving it to her. I don't think it came from Justin either. My guess is that they do get passed down through family lines and may even stretch back to a group that originally had them created for a reason.
I was just listening to Turn Coat and Lara Raith had a rather interesting choker with a blood red ruby in it. Perhaps similar to the one Harry got in Changes? I don't recall her wearing that before, so it seems to be part of her combat attire.
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I thought there was a WoJ that Harry have Elaine the pentacle, but I could be mistaken.
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I was just listening to Turn Coat and Lara Raith had a rather interesting choker with a blood red ruby in it. Perhaps similar to the one Harry got in Changes? I don't recall her wearing that before, so it seems to be part of her combat attire.
Or it could be the one Papa Wraith had in his ear when we first met him.
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I thought there was a WoJ that Harry have Elaine the pentacle, but I could be mistaken.
In the early books you mention that Elaine has the same pentacle as Harry. Is that significant or have you changed your mind on?
No it's significant. There is a reason for that. Harry and Elaine come from the same philosophical background as far as magic is concerned... Or at least so he believes in any case. I guess we will have to see if Elaine thinks the same way. Who here has read White Knight so far? Yah, Elaine doesn't think exactly the same way as Harry when it comes to the use of magic, but at the same time though they are not exactly on a totally different page either. It's significant that they both have the same symbol. It says something about what they think and what they believe.
He may have given it to her but it doesn't really sound like he did. I'm not sure.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/29b7149dd2914c7d4030fc50965f1ff4/raw)
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In the early books you mention that Elaine has the same pentacle as Harry. Is that significant or have you changed your mind on?
No it's significant. There is a reason for that. Harry and Elaine come from the same philosophical background as far as magic is concerned... Or at least so he believes in any case. I guess we will have to see if Elaine thinks the same way. Who here has read White Knight so far? Yah, Elaine doesn't think exactly the same way as Harry when it comes to the use of magic, but at the same time though they are not exactly on a totally different page either. It's significant that they both have the same symbol. It says something about what they think and what they believe.
He may have given it to her but it doesn't really sound like he did. I'm not sure.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/29b7149dd2914c7d4030fc50965f1ff4/raw)
That's not the one I was thinking of. I don't think I'd read that one.
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That's not the one I was thinking of. I don't think I'd read that one.
Ahh, come on, I posted that one like four replies in to the thread. :'(
( :P)
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Ahh, come on, I posted that one like four replies in to the thread. :'(
( :P)
Don't you know I don't read entire threads. Just cherry-pick posts here and there. Ain't nobody got time for that. :P
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Don't you know I don't read entire threads. Just cherry-pick posts here and there. Ain't nobody got time for that. :P
Bah, I say. Bah. :P
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Don't you know I don't read entire threads. Just cherry-pick posts here and there. Ain't nobody got time for that. :P
That's cold. I commiserate with you Quantus :P
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I see two possibilities.
First, the philosophical background comment concerns Harry's mom and Elaine's parents/parent. The pentacle doesn't make sense as representative of Harry's philosophy, as he didn't pick it; it was inherited. If anything, he based his philosophy on his understanding of what it represents. Does that make sense to anyone else? If it held any innate philosophical meaning, it would be based on the one who makes it. So, if Elaine's amulet is inherited, then I think it'd say more about her parents—maybe that they were allied, or familiar with, Margaret (for reference, I always call Harry's mom "Margaret" so I can keep references to her separate from Harry's daughter, Maggie). Couple the pentacle with her potential to be a Starborn, and I think it's a fair guess that her parents knew what Maggie was trying for, and did the same—either as allies, or rivals. It's no accident that both Harry and Elaine were orphaned, too; I think it's likely that they were both orphaned because of their births—essentially, because of who their parents were and what they were trying to do.
But Harry really learned his philosophy from Ebenezer; Elaine didn't have that kind of apprenticeship. She went from being abused by Justin to working for Summer, and I somehow doubt that the Fae taught her much like Eb taught Harry.
On the other hand, I can see it as Elaine emulating Harry, dating back to their time together with Justin. Elaine has modeled her life on the only purely positive thing in it (that's alive, anyway): Harry. Harry understood her—they were both orphans, both fostered by an abusive mentor, both orphaned again when that mentor tried to dominate them, both in dutch to the Fae (though Summer and Winter separately), and each other's first everything. Elaine, like Harry, didn't have much to latch on to for stability, so they latched on to each other. Hell, even after Elaine came back to this plane, the first thing she does (assuming she isn't Kumori) is set up shop as a wizard private detective, just like Harry.
Anyway, I think it's perfectly plausible to speculate that Elaine made her amulet based on Harry's when they were together, trying to mimic the one thing in her life that was stable, present, and happy.
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I, still, have a sneaky feeling that Justin was Elaine's real father and not adopted father. The amulet is Harry's link to his mother and Elaine's amulet is her link to Justin.
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But Elaine was adopted after Harry was. Are you suggesting that he had her hidden somewhere?
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But Elaine was adopted after Harry was. Are you suggesting that he had her hidden somewhere?
Could be that the mother had taken her, even hidden away from Justin with her and when he found her.... You can imagine what he'd have done.
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Could be that the mother had taken her, even hidden away from Justin with her and when he found her.... You can imagine what he'd have done.
Yeah, it's possible she was raised by a single parent, away from Justin, who eventually tracked her down.
That possibility aside, I find it very hard to believe that Justin wouldn't use his biological paternity as leverage against Elaine in his manipulation; orphans are starving for familial affection. If Justin told Elaine that he was her father, he very, very likely wouldn't have ever felt the need to even try to thrall her.
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I see two possibilities.
First, the philosophical background comment concerns Harry's mom and Elaine's parents/parent. The pentacle doesn't make sense as representative of Harry's philosophy, as he didn't pick it; it was inherited. If anything, he based his philosophy on his understanding of what it represents. Does that make sense to anyone else? If it held any innate philosophical meaning, it would be based on the one who makes it. So, if Elaine's amulet is inherited, then I think it'd say more about her parents—maybe that they were allied, or familiar with, Margaret (for reference, I always call Harry's mom "Margaret" so I can keep references to her separate from Harry's daughter, Maggie). Couple the pentacle with her potential to be a Starborn, and I think it's a fair guess that her parents knew what Maggie was trying for, and did the same—either as allies, or rivals. It's no accident that both Harry and Elaine were orphaned, too; I think it's likely that they were both orphaned because of their births—essentially, because of who their parents were and what they were trying to do.
But Harry really learned his philosophy from Ebenezer; Elaine didn't have that kind of apprenticeship. She went from being abused by Justin to working for Summer, and I somehow doubt that the Fae taught her much like Eb taught Harry.
Uhm, Harry learned his philosophy from Ebenezar, sure - but partly so did Margaret, his mother, even if she clearly veered off quite a bit from Ebenezar's ideas. Hence there's a pretty good chance her pentacle means exactly what Harry thinks ;)
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Uhm, Harry learned his philosophy from Ebenezar, sure - but partly so did Margaret, his mother, even if she clearly veered off quite a bit from Ebenezar's ideas. Hence there's a pretty good chance her pentacle means exactly what Harry thinks ;)
My argument against that is Ebenezer's lessons to Harry didn't seem to stick to Margaret, going from what we've learned about her. It's uncertain what her actual philosophy was.
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My argument against that is Ebenezer's lessons to Harry didn't seem to stick to Margaret, going from what we've learned about her. It's uncertain what her actual philosophy was.
Maybe, though she did eventually come back to the good side of town, where I imagine she might've suddenly remembered the "told you so" advice of her father.
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Yeah, it's possible she was raised by a single parent, away from Justin, who eventually tracked her down.
That possibility aside, I find it very hard to believe that Justin wouldn't use his biological paternity as leverage against Elaine in his manipulation; orphans are starving for familial affection. If Justin told Elaine that he was her father, he very, very likely wouldn't have ever felt the need to even try to thrall her.
Daughters sometimes have issues with absentee father figures.