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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: AcornArmy on August 29, 2011, 02:47:37 AM
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We've been told that Maggie LeFay was, "Brilliant, erratic, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, charming, insulting, bold, incautious, arrogant-- and short-sighted, yes. Among a great many other qualities." We've also been told that she knew more of the Ways than any other wizard alive, and knew them well enough that she could predict where they would go and when they would change-- something which apparently even very few fae are capable of doing.
Maggie apparently hated the way that humans could be preyed upon by wizards and other supernatural types without it being considered a breach of the Laws of Magic. Like Harry, she probably had the reasons for this stance explained to her, and like Harry, she probably understood it, even if she hated the results of the argument. But suppose that, unlike Harry, Maggie did not decide to drop the subject, or give up on changing things.
Maggie apparently explored the Nevernever in far greater detail than most wizards, and she quite likely went places that few wizards ever go. Suppose that one day she went exploring in some backwater of the Nevernever, someplace no sane wizard would ever go on their own, and she came across a place where passage to the Outside was possible.
We don't really know what the Outer Gates are, except that they open onto the Outside. And we don't really know what the Outside is, except that it's not part of Earth's normal reality. Outside may be one of the far reaches of the Nevernever-- in which case, blocking off access to it seems like it would be next to impossible-- or maybe it's another plane of existence, sort of like the Earthly plane, but quite separate. The latter seems like it would be easier to block off, since it seems like there would be fewer routes between such a realm and Earth. In either case, we know that access to the Outside is rare enough that it can be blocked off, because that is what has happened.
The Outer Gates seem like they must be points either on Earth or in the Nevernever where someone can open a gate and enter the Outside. Even the name implies this: Outer/Outside + Gate/portal. There must be a finite number of them known to the White Council in order for them to be blocked off. But the Nevernever is a big place; it's the biggest place, according to Harry. If the Outer Gates exist there, then it's almost inevitable that there are Outer Gates which have never been found and documented by wizards of the White Council.
So, suppose Maggie LeFay went exploring and found one. She wouldn't step through, of course, because she'd be instantly annihilated by the substance of that plane. But, being who she was, she wouldn't really need to step through to make an excellent guess about what was on the other side. And now Maggie has access to the Outsiders, something no one ever achieves, because the Council is so strict about killing anyone who even looks like they might be curious in that direction.
Maggie goes back to some of her friends, and they sit around, have some drinks, and start talking about how they want to foment political change for the poor vanilla mortals. Maggie brings up her new discovery, and they start pooling their knowledge of Outsiders and what they're capable of. Maybe they go to the Gate Maggie's discovered, and begin experimenting with summoning Outsiders in an attempt to learn more about them. The group eventually reaches a point where they realize that Outsiders can possess people and grant a dramatic boost to the host's natural power. (I'm extrapolating here, based on what we saw of Vitto's amped-up White Court psychic attack. This may not be something that all Outsiders can do, but it may not be limited to a single Outsider, either. There could be a whole class of Outsiders like that, for all we know.)
I have no idea what the group could have learned from the Outsiders to make them think they would be useful in changing the world for the better, but I suspect that that's what happened. I think maybe Maggie had never given up on the idea of leveling the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards, which would in turn level the field between mortals and most supernaturals. Only, maybe Maggie had given up on the idea of doing it using White Council politics. Maybe she had decided to start cooking up ways to replicate a wizard's abilities in the wider vanilla mortal population. And maybe, somehow, Outsiders seemed like they would be especially useful in doing this.
Way back in Storm Front, we had the Three-Eye drug, which turned out to be a potion that really did grant the Sight to vanilla mortals. Victor Sells supposedly created it, but he was an untrained hack. What are the odds that he could have developed something that no White Council wizard had ever heard of before? Or at least, something that was not common knowledge among wizards. I think Victor Sells probably got the recipe, or the beginnings of it, from someone else. Probably someone in Maggie's original group.
And then we have Kumori, in Dead Beat, talking about eliminating death forever through necromancy. Harry himself thinks that this would do more to level the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards than practically anything else, making their lifespans equal to a wizard's for the first time in history. If she and Cowl were successful, then combining that with a safer version of the Three-Eye drug, that would eliminate the Sight and the longevity from the list of disparities between vanillas and wizards.
After that, there is the power of magic itself. I have only the vaguest suspicions about how this one might be solved, mostly involving Outsider possession of the entire race of vanilla mortals-- but, honestly, that idea seems way too crazy for anyone to actually want to implement. I doubt that Maggie would've been that far gone. I mean, there's a reason that Outsiders are a banned subject, and summoning roughly 6 billion Outsiders into the Earthly plane would surely seem like a bad idea to anyone with half a functioning brain cell. But, whatever Maggie planned, my guess is that it did involve Outsiders in some way. Not one-by-one possession, but something else. I just have no clue what that something else might be.
Anyway, Maggie gets her group together, which probably included Justin DuMorne, and maybe later Lord Raith, and they begin this grand plan to change the world for the better. I'd imagine Lord Raith's excuse for being part of things was that anything that helped humans stay alive was beneficial to his kind in the long run. If vanilla mortals were strong enough to survive regular feeding by Whampires, everyone would win, from his perspective. Or, at least, that's probably something like what he told Maggie. After all, Raiths feed through superhumanly awesome sex, so if everyone could do that without any ill effects, why not?
Maggie, being brilliant, probably had a better grasp on Outsider lore than most of the rest of them. When things eventually turned bad, which they obviously did, she knew enough to recognize it and formulate a plan to fix the problem she had created. I don't have much of an idea how they turned bad, except to guess that the Outsiders may not have been quite as easy to use without repercussions as the group had believed they would be. Maybe the Outsiders began to exert an unhealthy influence over the group, bending it toward a new, less pleasant direction.
So Maggie left, hooked up with Malcolm Dresden, and gave birth to an Outsiderbane, who was meant to correct all the problems his mother had caused.
I know this seems like a weird and twisted plan, but think again about how Maggie was described: brilliant, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, bold, incautious, arrogant-- and short-sighted. Maggie could have come up with a plan like this. She could have found an unknown Outer Gate, she could have figured out how to summon Outsiders through it, and she could have decided they'd make a great tool to change the world for the better. And she could have been arrogant enough to think she could use them that way successfully. And maybe she was short-sighted enough not to realize that it would take a dark turn, at least not until the end.
PS: I wrote this post while listening to Gnarls Barkley's "Crazy" on a continuous loop. So if it seems way more nuts than my usual posts, I blame them.
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The theory's not so strange. Although I have never thought of Maggie LeFay as the founder of the Black Council, I find it completely plausible that she was a member who decided that the BC's goals no longer aligned with her own, so she left. Frankly, there are distinct similarities between the viewpoint of a character like Kumori and what Luccio claims were Maggie's goals. Thus, even were she not one of the initial members, I would not have been surprised had she been sought out by the Black Council, as her views of the White Council were apparently quite well known.
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Maggie LeFay and the Outsiders is the name of my next band. 8)
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Maggie apparently hated the way that humans could be preyed upon by wizards and other supernatural types without it being considered a breach of the Laws of Magic. Like Harry, she probably had the reasons for this stance explained to her, and like Harry, she probably understood it, even if she hated the results of the argument. But suppose that, unlike Harry, Maggie did not decide to drop the subject, or give up on changing things.
We should keep in mind that 'Margaret as misguided idealist' is one version of her we've heard, in a very strange conversation with Luccio, that doesn't mesh at all well with any of the other versions. We should also keep in mind that the other versions do mesh with each other. It's Luccio's that is the odd one out.
Way back in Storm Front, we had the Three-Eye drug, which turned out to be a potion that really did grant the Sight to vanilla mortals. Victor Sells supposedly created it, but he was an untrained hack. What are the odds that he could have developed something that no White Council wizard had ever heard of before? Or at least, something that was not common knowledge among wizards. I think Victor Sells probably got the recipe, or the beginnings of it, from someone else. Probably someone in Maggie's original group.
And then we have Kumori, in Dead Beat, talking about eliminating death forever through necromancy. Harry himself thinks that this would do more to level the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards than practically anything else, making their lifespans equal to a wizard's for the first time in history. If she and Cowl were successful, then combining that with a safer version of the Three-Eye drug, that would eliminate the Sight and the longevity from the list of disparities between vanillas and wizards.
Now that is an interesting theory! Especially in light of Harry's musings in Ghost Story that it's the ability to perceive magical energies that is one of the keys to becoming a Wizard in the first place. I doubt if that's what Margaret was up to...but someone else might well be thinking in that direction.
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And I'm thinking here... It could be that the bringing of Outsiders into the mortal world would also bring more of the magic into it. I'm thinking how in the "old world" magic was far more present, through history the belief in it has dicipated or replaced with other beliefs, maybe at some point in time it got banned away with the Outsiders, for reasons I wouldn't know to name, but Maggie's idea could be that bringing the Outsiders who would bring that old magic back, could translate into making a more fair distribution of power between mortals and supernatural, allowing the benefits you've cited, and really just leveling the field, give everybody fair opportunity.
So... I don't think is nuts at all, I think it's brilliant. Really. It's very well put and explained. I really need to reread to make some contributions here to your idea, I haven't paid that much attention to all the details in the books. But what you expose here is a sound theory in my opinion and thematically very interesting.
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We should keep in mind that 'Margaret as misguided idealist' is one version of her we've heard, in a very strange conversation with Luccio, that doesn't mesh at all well with any of the other versions. We should also keep in mind that the other versions do mesh with each other. It's Luccio's that is the odd one out.
Okay, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd like it if you would list the other descriptions of Maggie that you're thinking of. I don't really recall anything beyond what Ebenezer told Harry in Blood Rites, at the moment.
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So... I don't think is nuts at all, I think it's brilliant. Really. It's very well put and explained. I really need to reread to make some contributions here to your idea, I haven't paid that much attention to all the details in the books. But what you expose here is a sound theory in my opinion and thematically very interesting.
Thanks. :)
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Way back in Storm Front, we had the Three-Eye drug, which turned out to be a potion that really did grant the Sight to vanilla mortals. Victor Sells supposedly created it, but he was an untrained hack. What are the odds that he could have developed something that no White Council wizard had ever heard of before? Or at least, something that was not common knowledge among wizards. I think Victor Sells probably got the recipe, or the beginnings of it, from someone else. Probably someone in Maggie's original group.
And then we have Kumori, in Dead Beat, talking about eliminating death forever through necromancy. Harry himself thinks that this would do more to level the playing field between vanilla mortals and wizards than practically anything else, making their lifespans equal to a wizard's for the first time in history. If she and Cowl were successful, then combining that with a safer version of the Three-Eye drug, that would eliminate the Sight and the longevity from the list of disparities between vanillas and wizards.
Well we know that he was using a black magic ritual that was a smaller version of the RC ritual in Changes. So who taught him the ritual & how to make the drug? Was it Ariana or someone else (Black Council) using a cat's paw?
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Okay, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd like it if you would list the other descriptions of Maggie that you're thinking of. I don't really recall anything beyond what Ebenezer told Harry in Blood Rites, at the moment.
Hoo boy, let's see if I can slap this together.
The first major reference I can recall is from Chauzoggoroth, the infodemon Harry foolishly summoned up in Fool Moon. In the course of the discussion, Harry happens to mention his mother, and Chauzoggoroth comments:
"Indeed. Your mother was a most direct and willful woman. Her loss was a great sadness to all of us."
"You...you knew my mother? You knew Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden?"
"Many in the underworld were...familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name. Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end."
"What do you mean? What are you talking about?"
"Didn't you know about your mother's past, Mr. Dresden? A pity we did not have this conversation sooner. You might have added it into the bargain we made. Of course, if you would like to forfeit another name, to know all about your mother's past, her redemption, and the unnatural deaths of both mother and father, I am sure we can work something out."
OK, Chaunzoggoroth is a demonic entity, and as such by definition untrustworthy. Still, the only sucker bait it has to offer practitioners to summon it is useful truthful information. So lying is highly risky, it needs a reputation for truthfulness to do its damage. I suspect the only lie it told Harry was about St. Patrick being the source of the loup-garou curse. For that, it suddenly switched from direct declarative statements to second-hand comments, "It is said..." etc.
Its comments about Margaret, OTOH, were direct declarations.
Our next contestant is the ever-infamous Nicodemus Archleone. In Death Masks, when he had Harry helpless in that dungeon, he mentioned Margaret.
"Little Maggie's youngest. You've grown up to be a man of considerable strengths."
Later, Harry asks Nicodemus why he didn't just kill him. Nicodemus answers:
"I have a fond memory or two of your mother. It cost me little to attempt it. So why not?"
"That's the second time you've mentioned her."
"Yes. I respected her. Which is quite unusual for me."
OK, Nicodemus could easily have been lying (he does that). But he did know that Harry was a younger offspring of his mother, and there is some corroborating evidence that he knew Margaret, as we'll get to in a moment.
Next up is Thomas, in Blood Rites. Having told Harry that they share a common mother, Harry is reluctant to believe it. Thomas tells Harry:
"She was my mother too. Harry, you knew she wasn't exactly white as the driven snow. I know you've learned a little over the years. She was one Hell of a dangerous witch, and she kept some bad company."
Then a few minutes later, they have this exchange:
"It doesn't make any sense. What would she have been doing hanging around with your father?"
"God knows. All I know is that there was some sort of business between them. It developed into something else. Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall. She escaped him when I was about five. From what I've been able to learn, she met your father next year when she was on the run."
"Running from who?"
"Maybe my father. Maybe some people in the Courts or on the Council. I don't know. She'd gotten into some bad business and she wanted out. But whowever she was in it with didn't want her gone. They wanted her dead."
Thomas then adds that he can't get people to talk to him about his mother. Thomas and Harry continue to bicker over what the truth is. A few minutes later they soulgaze, and Harry meets the simulacrum of his mother, who refers to herself/Margaret as being 'so arrogant', among other things. The simulacrum confirms that he and Thomas are brothers.
Now, the simulation is a little piece of Margaret imprinted on the brains of Harry and Thomas. What does that sound like? A lot like a Denarian mindshadow. Where could she have learned to do such a thing? Well, Nicodemus did claim to have known her. Those two facts do seem to support each other.
Later in Blood Rites, Ebenezar tells Harry:
"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew she was one of the Wizards who had turned the Council's own Laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had...unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She would have been tried and executed in moments if she was brought before the Council."
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"I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates--including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her too."
In Turn Coat, Harry got a look at Ebenezar's journal, and he caught a glimpse of a line written by Eb to the effect that he can't think of anybody he'd trust with whatever is associatedf with Demonreach more than he'd trust Harry, but that..."then again, I trusted Maggie, too."
All right, now we've got various points of view on her, all of which more-or-less match up. The versions from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, the Margaret-simulation, and Ebenezar all line up with each other. They contradict Luccio's comments in Turn Coat in several basic ways. Further, that whole conversation with Luccio was weird, weird, weird. Harry's reactions to what she was saying made no sense, either.
So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist. Maybe it started out that way...
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Very interesting speculation AcornArmy! I can definitely believe that you're right about at least some of your theory, maybe quite a bit of it.
I'm also reminded of this WoJ which could be applicable:
"A lot of the folks that are generally perceived as bad guys aren't necessarily, and there are several who are currently perceived as good guys who aren't necessarily"
Harry hasn't had a chance to meet, or speak with, some of the "bad guys", and it could be that there are more like Kumori who aren't as bad as we might have assumed absent Harry's dialogue with her. Unfortunately Harry won't know until he gets the chance to speak with them, as he did her. I can definitely see that there might have been some idealistic people who fell in with Maggie's group, but got labeled "bad" and have had to stay on that "side" ever since.
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All right, now we've got various points of view on her, all of which more-or-less match up. The versions from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, the Margaret-simulation, and Ebenezar all line up with each other. They contradict Luccio's comments in Turn Coat in several basic ways. Further, that whole conversation with Luccio was weird, weird, weird. Harry's reactions to what she was saying made no sense, either.
So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist. Maybe it started out that way...
This doesn't seem like a matter of contradiction, it seems like a matter of reading a lot of information into some very brief mentions of Maggie LeFay. That Maggie LeFay made contact with demons? Harry was doing that very thing while having that conversation. That Nicodemus respected her? Even if he's not blurring the lines of the truth, Nicodemus can probably be said to respect Harry, or Shiro, or any number of enemies. Saying he respected Maggie isn't the same thing as saying she had a coin herself. And concluding that Maggie learned how to make the simulacrum from studying a Fallen's mind-shadow is rather weak, since the only kind of support for the idea is that both of them are recordings of a personality. Simply hearing about a shadow construct could be enough to make a smart wizard start to consider how such a thing might be made with magic.
Most of all, though, Nicodemus is about as far from a reliable source as it's possible for one to get. Nick was in the middle of trying to convince Harry to take up one of the coins. Insinuating that Harry's mother had been friendly with the Denarians is an obvious move in that direction.
That she was dangerous is obvious, and I think I was pretty clear about some of the bad company she kept in my post. And I actually suggested that she repeatedly broke the Seventh Law myself; I know she broke some of the Laws, or I wouldn't have suggested that she'd started a club based on repeatedly breaking one of them.
The most important thing, though, is that Luccio's depiction of Maggie doesn't contradict any of that, it simply adds to it. The combination of being passionate, committed, incautious, arrogant, and short-sighted is one that could easily explain all of the dark insinuations by Chauncy, Nick, and Ebenezer. Maggie was a woman who believed what she believed, and was willing to go to extremes in order to make the world fit what she thought it should be.
Ebenezer himself told Harry that Maggie called him to Lord Raith's place for dinner and suggested an idea to him, an idea that he didn't want any part of, and that he thought she shouldn't want any part of, either. He said that this occurred shortly after Maggie had taken up with "that Raith bastard." So whenever Maggie's Lawbreaking occurred, it was after the scheme had been thought of and begun. Ebenezer was almost certainly not under orders to kill her at that time, or it seems doubtful that Maggie would have invited him to dinner with Lord Raith and Duchess Arianna.
And as I suggested in the OP-- well, if the group found themselves with access to a Gate to the Outside, what would they have done about it? Research on Outsiders was a beheading offense, so it's not like they could ask around within the White Council. They couldn't just start trying to summon Outsiders without any clue as to how to do it, because they weren't stupid, or at least Maggie wasn't, and such a thing was bound to be incredibly dangerous. So where would Maggie go for information on Outsiders, and how to safely summon them? She'd go to the underworld. Maybe she'd even go to Nicodemus, a 2,000 year old Denarian with demonic connections. She'd go to the darker, more ancient fae, who might have such knowledge.
It seems to me that Luccio's description gives us insight into why Maggie did the things she did and where she came from, while the others give us insight into the kinds of things she was eventually willing to do to achieve her goals. I was never suggesting that Maggie was pure as the driven snow, or even that she was just misunderstood. I'm sure she did some ugly things, once she came up with her plan and started putting it in motion. But from the example of the dinner Ebenezer had with her, the darker period of her life probably took place near the end, after she hooked up with Raith.
But even if she did do some unpleasant things in service to her goals, that doesn't mean that Luccio's description wasn't accurate. In fact, it seems to me to be the only explanation anyone has given us for why Ebenezer's daughter would do the kinds of things that she apparently did. She was driven, she thought way, way outside the box, and she was willing to do what she felt she had to in order to succeed in her plans.
All the sources agree, though, that she eventually turned away from her allies and left them. She eventually came to her senses, and realized that what she had intended to achieve was not what was actually happening. That's pretty much what it sounds like from all of the various sources. She may have been misguided and short-sighted, but she wasn't evil. Which fits perfectly with how Luccio described her.
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Very interesting speculation AcornArmy! I can definitely believe that you're right about at least some of your theory, maybe quite a bit of it.
I'm also reminded of this WoJ which could be applicable:
Harry hasn't had a chance to meet, or speak with, some of the "bad guys", and it could be that there are more like Kumori who aren't as bad as we might have assumed absent Harry's dialogue with her. Unfortunately Harry won't know until he gets the chance to speak with them, as he did her. I can definitely see that there might have been some idealistic people who fell in with Maggie's group, but got labeled "bad" and have had to stay on that "side" ever since.
Thanks! That WoJ could be important, if something like this theory turns out to be true. It could imply that some of the people, like maybe DuMorne, weren't quite as horrible as they've seemed so far. I know Ebenezer called him "that bastard DuMorne," but now that we know Maggie was Eb's daughter, it could be that Eb wasn't being entirely objective in his opinion. Eb might place a lot of the blame for what eventually happened to Maggie on DuMorne and Lord Raith. Though, to be fair, it seems like a safe bet that Raith really is as big a bastard as Eb thinks he is.
Of course, the WoJ could also imply that there are factions within the Outsider-summoning group, and that some of them suck and some don't, and we may not be clear on which is which.
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So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist. Maybe it started out that way...
Misguided but Well-Intentioned Idealist (n) - see villain. see also hero.
We'll be entering an election year here in the US soon and I fully expect that both parties will paint the other as villains. And they're both right. And they're both wrong. Good and evil are opinions.
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So I strongly distrust the idea that Margaret was just a misguided but well-intentioned idealist. Maybe it started out that way...
In the history of the world you will find that most of the murderous dictators and religious fanatics who are responsible for the death of millions started out as well-intentioned idealists. Now you can argue about what exactly their ideals were, but there it is.
In the Sixties, the anti-war movement was filled with well-intentioned idealists, most of them remained that way, others got splintered off into violent groups such as the Weathermen, while most took drugs, some got into the business of dealing drugs big time.
The point I am getting to, is we know Margaret LeFay daughter of Eb, had a bit of a strict upbringing and apprenticeship, Eb admits to pushing her too far and hints at inflexibility on his part, and his daughter ran away. Luccio hints and even the WC has dropped some hints that Margaret didn't care for the White Council system, too many constraints in her opinion, her youngest son shared some of those beliefs. It is easy for someone angry, young, idealistic, full of herself [arrogant as only the young can be] like Margaret LeFay was,to get led astray or corrupted by someone older more powerful, like Nick would be perfect to take up her mentorship, then someone like the handsome urbane Lord Raith.. She'd even have a child by him, but in the end, Maggie LeFay found that she valued her own free will more, and Lord Raith found that he could never fully enthrall her to his will. She escaped, eventually hooked up with Malcom a truly good vanilla human, from his example, realized with horror what she had helped in her angry idealism to unleash, so she devised a plan to counter it, that plan was to conceive a child under a special alinement of the stars with a truly good man, that child was Harry.
It could be that she did help to found the Black Council, but I suspect they have been around as long as the White Council.
I think that I may also have come up with a motive for why Malcom Dresden was murdered. He was the only one who knew the full story of the how and the why of Margaret LeFay's redemption. Only Malcom had the first hand knowledge, others had first hand knowledge only of her rebellion and her evil period, this is most of what has been passed on to Harry. Even his grandfather, who wouldn't even tell Harry he was his grandfather, could have told him a heck of a lot about his mother, but didn't. Out of fear of what the knowledge might do to Harry maybe, or because nobody but Malcom knew the full story.
That full story would help erase doubt in Harry about his mother, make him less easy to lead astray by others, so Malcom had to die. What is interesting, is Harry himself doesn't quite get the importance of knowing that part of the story, otherwise he would have asked Lea more about it, instead he pressed her to tell him who murdered him. Something he knew she really wasn't going to be allowed to tell him.
OK, Chaunzoggoroth is a demonic entity, and as such by definition untrustworthy. Still, the only sucker bait it has to offer practitioners to summon it is useful truthful information. So lying is highly risky, it needs a reputation for truthfulness to do its damage. I suspect the only lie it told Harry was about St. Patrick being the source of the loup-garou curse. For that, it suddenly switched from direct declarative statements to second-hand comments, "It is said..." etc.
I doubt he was telling a lie about any of it, what he was doing was putting bait on a hook to try and catch Harry. What better bait than to tempt Harry with the full story of what happened to his mother and father? Harry almost was willing to give up his full name for that, but not quite.
Just as a side note, old Chez didn't have Harry's full name, wouldn't, unless Harry gave it to him, in contrast both Uriel and the Angel of Death had not only Harry's full name, but all the inflections needed to hold power over him.
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This is very nice indeed. There's only one part of it that does not quite work for me.
Maggie, being brilliant, probably had a better grasp on Outsider lore than most of the rest of them. When things eventually turned bad, which they obviously did, she knew enough to recognize it and formulate a plan to fix the problem she had created. I don't have much of an idea how they turned bad, except to guess that the Outsiders may not have been quite as easy to use without repercussions as the group had believed they would be. Maybe the Outsiders began to exert an unhealthy influence over the group, bending it toward a new, less pleasant direction.
So Maggie left, hooked up with Malcolm Dresden, and gave birth to an Outsiderbane, who was meant to correct all the problems his mother had caused.
I am not seeing the degree of effort Justin puts into training Harry, and that various forces have put into co-opting or corrupting Harry over the course of the series, as compatible with Harry being solely a solution to Maggie's former misdeeds; it seems to me to fit better with Harry's existence being part of the same plan, which Maggie tries to hack for the purposes of good. The timing of Maggie's death also makes more sense to me if Lord R and possibly his remaining allies want the Outsiderbane child around and mouldable to their ends, but don't want Maggie there as a potential influence. The utility of a child with special power over Outsiders to a group interested in using Outsiders (for whatever end) seems fairly straightforward to me.
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That she was dangerous is obvious, and I think I was pretty clear about some of the bad company she kept in my post. And I actually suggested that she repeatedly broke the Seventh Law myself; I know she broke some of the Laws, or I wouldn't have suggested that she'd started a club based on repeatedly breaking one of them.
The most important thing, though, is that Luccio's depiction of Maggie doesn't contradict any of that, it simply adds to it. The combination of being passionate, committed, incautious, arrogant, and short-sighted is one that could easily explain all of the dark insinuations by Chauncy, Nick, and Ebenezer. Maggie was a woman who believed what she believed, and was willing to go to extremes in order to make the world fit what she thought it should be.
Pretty much all of this works equally well as a description of Harry, particularly earlier in the series; I am wondering whether at some point getting more details on his mother's life and actions will be part of more significant character growth for him.
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I am not seeing the degree of effort Justin puts into training Harry, and that various forces have put into co-opting or corrupting Harry over the course of the series, as compatible with Harry being solely a solution to Maggie's former misdeeds; it seems to me to fit better with Harry's existence being part of the same plan, which Maggie tries to hack for the purposes of good. The timing of Maggie's death also makes more sense to me if Lord R and possibly his remaining allies want the Outsiderbane child around and mouldable to their ends, but don't want Maggie there as a potential influence. The utility of a child with special power over Outsiders to a group interested in using Outsiders (for whatever end) seems fairly straightforward to me.
Yeah, I didn't mention this part yet, because I didn't want to muddle the rest of it, but I agree. I've been calling Harry an "Outsiderbane," because that's what we've been calling whatever it is that he is, but the truth seems to be more complicated than that. Especially after GS, when HWWB seemed to be testing Harry rather than really trying to kill him. It almost seems like the group of Outsider-summoners, whoever they are, think that Harry will be useful to them rather than damaging to their goals.
But maybe Maggie understood something the rest of them didn't, and she saw a way for Harry to become their Achilles' heel, rather than a useful tool. This seems to be what you're thinking, too, so we're probably in agreement on this one. Harry's probably a two-edged sword with regard to the Outsiders. And given that the group hasn't made any serious, concentrated efforts to kill him, I'd guess that they either don't realize he could be used against them, or they think the probability of that is extremely low compared to the potential benefits for themselves.
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Is it possible that Maggie used her death curse to kill herself at Harry's birth? That she wanted Harry to group up a specific way? She wanted Malcom to raise him and instill certain values in him, and she felt that her being around and alive just wasn't a viable way to do that?
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I think you are on to something here but I think you are starting from the wrong place. Maggie was involved in some sort of plan with bad types but I don't think she knew about the outsiders angle until later. The start of this plan probably has to do with the meeting that Eb mentions at the end of Changes where Maggie invited him to a dinner to discuss a plan and then Lord Raith and Arianna were both there. Eb specifically says that Maggie was pitching a plan to him which he didn't want anything to do with. What was that plan? Both White Court Vampires and Red Court Vampires can live without actually killing humans so they might seem like decent groups to try to make a deal with against more dangerous supernatural types. Second, both White Court Vamps and Red Court Infected are kind of half mortal with a dangerous evil spirits in them that give them incredible strength. Thus maybe she got sold on trying to breed some weird hybrid vampire/wizard super race that could fix the world. Besides, if you think about it, we know of exactly one thing that came out Maggie working with Lord Raith which is Thomas. If Thomas was in part the result of an experiment in wizards breeding with WC Vamps then it might explain why she was willing to leave him behind when she ran or why Lord Raith might have protected him so much that she couldn't grab him when she decided to leave.
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Yeah, I didn't mention this part yet, because I didn't want to muddle the rest of it, but I agree. I've been calling Harry an "Outsiderbane," because that's what we've been calling whatever it is that he is, but the truth seems to be more complicated than that. Especially after GS, when HWWB seemed to be testing Harry rather than really trying to kill him. It almost seems like the group of Outsider-summoners, whoever they are, think that Harry will be useful to them rather than damaging to their goals.
I think they think they have a reasonable chance of getting him to be a person who will serve their ends. Not necessarily even an explicit ally, considering the degree of havoc Harry wreaks on existing supernatural power groups through acting on his own moral compass and downright stubbornness and the consequences of those actions; a free agent that is undercutting the competition might still count as a win there.
Harry's probably a two-edged sword with regard to the Outsiders. And given that the group hasn't made any serious, concentrated efforts to kill him, I'd guess that they either don't realize he could be used against them, or they think the probability of that is extremely low compared to the potential benefits for themselves.
That's pretty much exactly where I am on that, yes.
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I think you are on to something here but I think you are starting from the wrong place. Maggie was involved in some sort of plan with bad types but I don't think she knew about the outsiders angle until later.
I'm not seeing evidence for that position.
I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal who demonstrates working knowledge of Outside power are Cowl and Peabody. (Unless you count Ivy with mordite in DM, and she does not need a direct link to be aware of that information, they just have to have written it down or formally taught it at some point.) The Cowl ==Simon hypothesis ties all of them up in one neat bundle.
I'd also note that the Reds' sorcerous auxiliaries use Outsiders more than once in DB and PG. possibly that's entirely new, but it says to me that the Reds aren't reluctant to think of Outsiders as tools.
Both of those feel to me suggestive of a larger scheme going further back.
The start of this plan probably has to do with the meeting that Eb mentions at the end of Changes where Maggie invited him to a dinner to discuss a plan and then Lord Raith and Arianna were both there. Eb specifically says that Maggie was pitching a plan to him which he didn't want anything to do with. What was that plan? Both White Court Vampires and Red Court Vampires can live without actually killing humans so they might seem like decent groups to try to make a deal with against more dangerous supernatural types.
I'd find that easier to believe if the apparent workings out of that plan had not exterminated the Reds and done very serious damage to the White Court.
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I'm not seeing evidence for that position.
I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal who demonstrates working knowledge of Outside power are Cowl and Peabody. (Unless you count Ivy with mordite in DM, and she does not need a direct link to be aware of that information, they just have to have written it down or formally taught it at some point.) The Cowl ==Simon hypothesis ties all of them up in one neat bundle.
I'd also note that the Reds' sorcerous auxiliaries use Outsiders more than once in DB and PG. possibly that's entirely new, but it says to me that the Reds aren't reluctant to think of Outsiders as tools.
Both of those feel to me suggestive of a larger scheme going further back.
I'd find that easier to believe if the apparent workings out of that plan had not exterminated the Reds and done very serious damage to the White Court.
I may not have been completely clear. I agree that there is some larger master scheme at work behind the scenes. What I was describing was how I believe that Maggie might have been duped into becoming involved in that larger scheme. Furthermore, I think Maggie figured out the full extent of what was going and that is what led to her to run away from Raith. The apparent expendability of the Red Court in Changes and the White Court in White Night just shows that Lord Raith and Ariana were being used as pawns too.
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Maggie and the Outsiders sounds like a 60's Rock Band.
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The most important thing, though, is that Luccio's depiction of Maggie doesn't contradict any of that, it simply adds to it.
No, it blatantly contradicts it.
According to Ebenezar, Margaret was a warlock on the run from the Council, and under a literal death sentence.
According to Luccio, Margaret was a misguided idealist who the Wardens had been assigned to watch, and nothing more. No mention of her being a warlock, no mention of a death sentence from Luccio.
Further, Luccio comments that Margaret simply disappeared for 5 years or so with no explanation, and presumably was with LR and had Thomas in that time. Nothing about her being hunted afterward by the WCouncil and the WCourt at the same time. None.
And Harry, in that same conversation, doesn't even notice the contradiction. That's part of why I say that whole conversation is so weird. It portrays Margaret as being something totally different than every other reference we've seen. Either Luccio or Eb is lying, or else one of them is remembering events 100% out of synch with reality. Yet Harry doesn't even react to the contradiction in his own mind.
That's why I call that conversation 'weird'.
Ebenezer himself told Harry that Maggie called him to Lord Raith's place for dinner and suggested an idea to him, an idea that he didn't want any part of, and that he thought she shouldn't want any part of, either. He said that this occurred shortly after Maggie had taken up with "that Raith bastard." So whenever Maggie's Lawbreaking occurred, it was after the scheme had been thought of and begun. Ebenezer was almost certainly not under orders to kill her at that time, or it seems doubtful that Maggie would have invited him to dinner with Lord Raith and Duchess Arianna.
No, but Luccio didn't mention her becoming a warlock or under death sentence at all. She made Margaret sound like a misguided idealist, not evil. Every other account, every single other account, implies evil.
Not that Chaunzoggorth said that Hell expected to get her soul, but she found redemption just before the end. I didn't remember this last night, but that version also tallies with what Lea told Harry in Grave Peril. Lea said that Harry's self-sacrficing, noble choices reminded him of his mother...at the end of her life. After she changed paths.
The problem is not just that we have conflicting versions. It's that we have a fairly consistant set of versions, set against one strange and conflicting one from Luccio.
And as I suggested in the OP-- well, if the group found themselves with access to a Gate to the Outside, what would they have done about it? Research on Outsiders was a beheading offense, so it's not like they could ask around within the White Council. They couldn't just start trying to summon Outsiders without any clue as to how to do it, because they weren't
It seems to me that Luccio's description gives us insight into why Maggie did the things she did and where she came from, while the others give us insight into the kinds of things she was eventually willing to do to achieve her goals. I was never suggesting that Maggie was pure as the driven snow, or even that she was just misunderstood. I'm sure she did some ugly things, once she came up with her plan and started putting it in motion. But from the example of the dinner Ebenezer had with her, the darker period of her life probably took place near the end, after she hooked up with Raith.
You can't just do 'ugly things' with magic and not have it change you. That's why using black magic for good purposes doesn't work, or not for long, you lose the good purposes and it rarely takes very long.
Further, the accounts other than Luccio's say that the dark period of her life came first, then, at the very end, came something better.
All the sources agree, though, that she eventually turned away from her allies and left them. She eventually came to her senses, and realized that what she had intended to achieve was not what was actually happening. That's pretty much what it sounds like from all of the various sources. She may have been misguided and short-sighted, but she wasn't evil. Which fits perfectly with how Luccio described her.
Yeah, but every version other than Luccio's does suggest evil. You have to take a really improbable interpretation of the others to make them even half-fit with Luccio's account, and Eb's account is totally incompatiable with Luccio's.
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Misguided but Well-Intentioned Idealist (n) - see villain. see also hero.
We'll be entering an election year here in the US soon and I fully expect that both parties will paint the other as villains. And they're both right. And they're both wrong. Good and evil are opinions.
Not in the DV. They are real things with real consequences, esp. when magic gets mixed in.
If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul. It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells. But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist. She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.
This is why Luccio's account doesn't make sense, and why Ebenezar's does.
Remember, if Luccio is right, then there's no reason Margaret couldn't have turned to Ebenezar and the White Council for help and protection when she was on the run from Lord Raith. She's pregnant, married to a mortal, and running from the White Court. If she was just misguided, then she could go the Wardens for help, and she could pay for that help, too.
She would be a gold mine of intel about the White Court, after all. That alone would be a good enough reason to protect Margaret from Raith.
But if she was a warlock, guilty of multiple major crimes, then her failure to turn to the Council for help makes perfect sense. But that makes Luccio's account wrong.
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What's the chances that Ebenezar killed MaggieSr?
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Luccio seems to be talking about only a part of Maggie Sr.'s life, the part when Luccio knew her. The stories seem completely compatible.
Maggie Sr. started out as an idealist, who was resistant to the White Council and pushy for change (This is the only part of Maggie's life that Luccio is talking about -- pre-renegade/Warlock). When Maggie realized she couldn't change the White Council directly, she probably started looking for allies elsewhere, establishing or joining some kind of Grey Council. Her efforts took her farther down the wrong-path, and the Grey Council turned Black. At some point, Maggie met Malcolm, realized she was becoming or had become a monster, and started trying to make amends. These latter events are the parts of Maggie's life discussed by others.
I don't think Luccio had any reason in the context of that particular conversation to mention "Oh by the way, after your Mom discovered she couldn't change the WC, she went psycho and we had to put a death sentence on her." In fact, I think it would have been rather insulting to Harry, because it would have been suggesting he was headed down the same path.
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Is it possible that Maggie used her death curse to kill herself at Harry's birth? That she wanted Harry to group up a specific way? She wanted Malcom to raise him and instill certain values in him, and she felt that her being around and alive just wasn't a viable way to do that?
We already know that she used her death curse to take away Lord Raith's power to feed, and I'm pretty sure it's established that Lord Raith used his sorceresses to kill Margaret with an entropy curse.
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We already know that she used her death curse to take away Lord Raith's power to feed, and I'm pretty sure it's established that Lord Raith used his sorceresses to kill Margaret with an entropy curse.
Not possible. His sorceresses would have been between the ages of 2 and 14 at the time of Maggie's Death. Seems to me incredibly unlikely that they were responsible for her death.
If you're implying he had other sorceresses before. That's possible, but we have nothing but conjecture on that.
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Luccio seems to be talking about only a part of Maggie Sr.'s life, the part when Luccio knew her. The stories seem completely compatible.
No, they aren't.
Luccio makes a reference to the time when Margaret disappeared for 5 years, presumably that was the period when she was with Raith, or at least that's what Luccio says to Harry. According to Ebenezar, the hunt for Margaret by the Wardens was during and after that period, and that is precisely what Luccio doesn't mention. Luccio acts upset by Margaret's selfishness with regard to Thomas, but totally ignores her warlock-dom. Which is...kind of freakin' odd for the Captain of the Wardens.
When Harry asks her what the problem with Margaret was, he gets some stuff about her misguided idealism. Nothing about her being a magical killer. Nothing about her being a warlock who broke multiple Laws of Magic. Nothing about her using the Laws themselves against the Council.
As leader of the Wardens, these are the things that would be primary for Luccio...yet she acts as if they never happened.
Maggie Sr. started out as an idealist, who was resistant to the White Council and pushy for change (This is the only part of Maggie's life that Luccio is talking about -- pre-renegade/Warlock). When Maggie realized she couldn't change the White Council directly, she probably started looking for allies elsewhere, establishing or joining some kind of Grey Council. Her efforts took her farther down the wrong-path, and the Grey Council turned Black. At some point, Maggie met Malcolm, realized she was becoming or had become a monster, and started trying to make amends. These latter events are the parts of Maggie's life discussed by others.
Doesn't work. She has to realize she was on the wrong track, or at least fall out with her allies, before she meets Malcolm. And there isn't much time for 'making amends', either. In order to have had time to do the dark things the others refer to, she has to have been on that road for a long time.
I agree that she could easily have started out as a misguided idealist, but that stage can't have been long, not unless somebody's account is totally, completely wrong.
And no, it doesn't make sense for Luccio not to mention Margaret's rap sheet to Harry, because he would almost have to know something about it already. Further, it's weird that Harry doesn't wonder about the discrepencies between everything else he's heard and Luccio's version, even in his own private thoughts.
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Luccio is being mind-scr00ged by the Black Council at this point. There are many possible options for what's going on.
1) Luccio is being edited.
2) Ebenezar is Black Council and lying to Harry.
come to mind as the two most likely.
The problem comes from the fact that Morgan is all "like Mother like Son." "Your mother was a Warlock and SO ARE YOU." Is something Morgan implies at least once, if not multiple times.
Luccio's account is weird, and Harry ignoring it is doubly weird. Harry could be wishful thinking it. hard to say.
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Luccio makes a reference to the time when Margaret disappeared for 5 years, presumably that was the period when she was with Raith, or at least that's what Luccio says to Harry. According to Ebenezar, the hunt for Margaret by the Wardens was during and after that period, and that is precisely what Luccio doesn't mention. Luccio acts upset by Margaret's selfishness with regard to Thomas, but totally ignores her warlock-dom. Which is...kind of freakin' odd for the Captain of the Wardens.
Might we want to file this with the more numerous internal inconsistencies between GS and the rest of the series as clues to something Jim is doing deliberately ?
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I would note that the only people not provably linked to the Maggie/Justin/Lord R cabal
Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the only connection between Justin and Lord Raith was the fact that they both called up HHWB. Given that GS sheds some doubt on the whole "Justin calling up HHWB", is this point still strongly suggested?
Might we want to file this with the more numerous internal inconsistencies between GS and the rest of the series as clues to something Jim is doing deliberately ?
Second the motion.
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No, it blatantly contradicts it.
According to Ebenezar, Margaret was a warlock on the run from the Council, and under a literal death sentence.
According to Luccio, Margaret was a misguided idealist who the Wardens had been assigned to watch, and nothing more. No mention of her being a warlock, no mention of a death sentence from Luccio.
....
Further, the accounts other than Luccio's say that the dark period of her life came first, then, at the very end, came something better.
I think you're taking much too strict a view of the mentions of Maggie's life, and saying, "Here she was evil, here she was good." It was probably never that cut and dried. Maggie lived for at least 160 years, according to WoJ about the time of her mother's death. Early on she lived with Ebenezer. Was she evil then? She ran off and started learning things on her own, doing things on her own, and earned the name of "LeFay." Clearly, other wizards had contact with her during that period, because they knew who she was and what she could do well enough to give her a nickname. Was she evil then?
According to Ebenezer's own words, he had dinner with Maggie, Lord Raith, and Duchess Arianna, shortly after Maggie started seeing Lord Raith. Was she being hunted by the White Council then?
You are not taking everything into account. You're saying that Maggie may have been decent at the end of her life, but before then, she must have been evil, or at least worthy of being classified as a warlock. This just doesn't make sense. Maggie lived a long time, and for most of that time, she was probably a pain in Council's ass, but not actually considered a warlock. This fits with both Ebenezer's story and what Luccio said. She then took up with Raith, began taking a darker path, and things came to a head with the White Council. We don't know how long she was with Lord Raith, but we do know that that period took up the end of her life, except for a couple of years at the very end. And those last couple of years she changed her mind and tried to correct some of her mistakes, as she told Harry in his soulgaze with Thomas.
It seems to me that the simplest and most correct way to look at Maggie's life, given that she was a human being and not a piece of litmus paper, is to think of her as being somewhat wild and gray-tinged for most of her life, then hooking up with Raith and turning darker, and finally coming to her senses at the very end and trying to correct her earlier mistakes.
Luccio seems to be talking about only a part of Maggie Sr.'s life, the part when Luccio knew her. The stories seem completely compatible.
This is exactly what I was saying.
I don't think Luccio had any reason in the context of that particular conversation to mention "Oh by the way, after your Mom discovered she couldn't change the WC, she went psycho and we had to put a death sentence on her." In fact, I think it would have been rather insulting to Harry, because it would have been suggesting he was headed down the same path.
Exactly, I agree entirely. They were seeing each other romantically. Why bother bringing up the fact that his mother was considered a warlock whom the Council wanted dead? Luccio was answering his question in the way that he really meant, which was a request for information about who his mother was, not about the information on her Most Wanted poster. Despite whatever else Maggie may have been, she was his mother, and he never had the chance to know her. Luccio was trying to help fill in that gap.
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Could someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the only connection between Justin and Lord Raith was the fact that they both called up HHWB. Given that GS sheds some doubt on the whole "Justin calling up HHWB", is this point still strongly suggested?
IIRC, Eb refers to Justin duMorne as an associate of Maggie's in BR.
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IIRC, Eb refers to Justin duMorne as an associate of Maggie's in BR.
{quick look up on Amazon "look inside".}
You do remember correctly. Thanks.
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Luccio makes a reference to the time when Margaret disappeared for 5 years, presumably that was the period when she was with Raith, or at least that's what Luccio says to Harry. According to Ebenezar, the hunt for Margaret by the Wardens was during and after that period, and that is precisely what Luccio doesn't mention. Luccio acts upset by Margaret's selfishness with regard to Thomas, but totally ignores her warlock-dom. Which is...kind of freakin' odd for the Captain of the Wardens.
Myself, I see this weirdness as entirely the result of the two of them being in a car, as a couple who are dating and sleeping together, and Luccio finding herself in the position of having to talk to her boyfriend about his mother, whom he never knew and knows little about, when Luccio herself was the person who was in charge of hunting the woman down and executing her at the end of her life. The weirdness isn't that Luccio is the Captain of the Wardens and she's saying the things she's saying, it's because she's the Captain of the Wardens, and she's trying to figure out how to talk about the subject without it turning into a whole huge thing about her trying to execute her boyfriend's mom.
I mean, that situation is bound to be awkward. What would you have said if you were in her place? Would you have gone off on how much of a warlock she was, when you knew that wasn't what your date wanted to know about their mother? Hell, Luccio may have still been sort of hoping to get laid that night. You have to keep things in perspective.
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Alright, I'm going to sidestep the whole was Maggie evil for most of her life or not debate, as I think that we are a bit short on evidence to reach a conclusion, in favour of trying to set up an approximate Maggie Dresden timeline based upon what we know in order to clarify some of these issues.
According to the DF timeline thread, Maggie is over 100 years old when she becomes involved with Lord Raith. Thus, as Thomas was born 34-35 years pre-SF and she was presumably involved with Lord Raith at least a couple of years before his birth, let's say that she hooked up with Raith 37-40 years pre-SF, as, if Raith is a WC vampire, then I would assume that they were having a lot of sex. So, as a ballpark figure, let's say that she was born around 150 years pre-SF (I know that you said it should be more like 180-200 years per-SF AA, but I'm not familiar with the WoJ you are citing).
~ 150 BSF
Maggie born
~ 140 BSF
Maggie manifests a talent around the same age as Harry according to WoJ, so probably she's 10-12 years old. Presumably, as she was was Ebenezar's daughter, he finds out fairly quickly and soon takes her as an apprentice.
~ 135-130 BSF
Maggie's apprenticeship ends. Feeling resentful of Eb's strict training, she sets off one her own.
Between 130 BSF and 50 BSF
At some point in this period, Maggie gains knowledge of the Ways surpassing that of any other living wizard, so she is probably spending a lot of time there at some point. If her abilities were well-known enough that people were calling her Maggie LeFay, she presumably had them at least 10 years before she went warlock. most likely, if she came to be widely known by this name, she had this ability far longer (maybe by 100 BSF). In this period, she is not being hunted by the wardens. We don't know whether she is breaking the laws without anyone else noticing, but, at the very least, she is reveling in what the council considers grey magic, including (probably) things like summoning demons, as Chaunzaggoroth says that "Many in the underworld were … familiar with her." To be honest, she might also been involved with Raith later in this period, as I am not aware of any source which tells us when their relationship began, so take the later date with a grain of salt. According to Luccio, she advocated for change in the White Council during this period, wanting the Laws of Magic to embrace concepts of justice. Presumably she was also associated with DuMorne in this period, as, since DuMorne was a known associate of Maggie and a warden, they must have met before she was a fugitive from White Council justice.
~ 40 BSF
Maggie becomes involved in a relationship with Raith. As I have said, this date may be off, so take it with a grain of salt.
Sometime around the beginning of Maggie/Raith and before Thomas' birth (so before 35 BSF)
“A dinner. Maggie—my Maggie—asked me to a dinner. She’d just taken up with that Raith bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn’t warn me. They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”
Maggie is involved in some sort of scheme with Raith which Eb refuses to support and discourages (this could be something to do with the Black Council, although that is, of course, speculation). It is worth noting, however, that as Eb is not under orders to kill Maggie during this period, she cannot have openly broken the Laws of Magic yet (although, as noted earlier, she might have done so secretly). She might also have done terrible things prior to this point which did not violate the Laws of Magic, as Chaunzaggoroth says that "her coming was awaited with great anticipation." Again, this is just speculation, as she might have not done anything truly horrible until a little bit later. We have scant evidence one way or the other.
34-35 BSF
Thomas is born. Maggie imprisoned in the Chateau Raith. Most of the council believes that she has run afoul of something in the NeverNever according to Luccio (as Luccio says that she disappeared for 4-5 years, she cannot have been imprisoned too long before Thomas' conception).
29-30 BSF
Maggie escapes Raith when Thomas is about 5 years old. According to Eb, "she turned away from her previous associates-including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
28-29 BSF
Maggie meets Malcolm Dresden.
27-28 BSF
Maggie is killed by Raith.
Thinking about this timeline, two important points occur to me. Firstly, if Maggie redeemed herself, then she was only doing so in those last two years when she was on the run. Moreover, as Eb "had [his] orders" regarding her in this period, but was free to meet with her when she began her relationship with Raith, Maggie must have only begun openly breaking the Laws of Magic while she was with Raith (and before Thomas was born, as the White Council did not know where she was after Thomas' birth). According to Eb, "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others," so Maggie must have been a pretty busy law breaker while she was together with Raith.
Also, I know some people consider Luccio's testimony suspect, but I think that this timeline is consistent with everything we have heard from all the various sources of information on this subject. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
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According to the DF timeline thread, Maggie is over 100 years old when she becomes involved with Lord Raith. Thus, as Thomas was born 34-35 years pre-SF and she was presumably involved with Lord Raith at least a couple of years before his birth, let's say that she hooked up with Raith 37-40 years pre-SF, as, if Raith is a WC vampire, then I would assume that they were having a lot of sex. So, as a ballpark figure, let's say that she was born around 150 years pre-SF (I know that you said it should be more like 180-200 years per-SF AA, but I'm not familiar with the WoJ you are citing).
I got it from here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1592.msg1188431.html#msg1188431):
Q: "Are we ever going to meet Margaret LeFey's Mother?"
A: "She was a mortal, and died somewhere around 1810. We'd only meet her if we go back to the French and Indian War [referencing his earlier statement that he has considered writing books from back during the French and Indian War"
After which I said:
So, if we assume 1810 as the last year Maggie LeFay could have been born, and sometime around 1970 or so as the year she died, then Maggie LeFay was, at minimum, 160 years old at the time of her death. She could've been as much as 80 or 90 years older than that, but she couldn't have been any younger.
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Maggie LaFey died in 1972.
We know this, because 1972 is Harry and Jim's (and mine) birth year.
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Maggie LaFey died in 1972.
We know this, because 1972 is Harry and Jim's (and mine) birth year.
But Jim has said before that Harry is about one year behind him in age, and GS is probably stretching that gap out more. It may be 1973, which is my birth year. ;D
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But Jim has said before that Harry is about one year behind him in age, and GS is probably stretching that gap out more. It may be 1973, which is my birth year. ;D
Get your dirty 1973 paws off my Harry! MIne mine!..
uh.. sorry.. I just had a Mollyment.
Maggie Sr's Minimum age is 162 years old, when Harry was born. Probably about 7 years before that when Thomas was born. Those with more amazing memory can probably tell us how old Thomas was when she left? I seem to remember it was about 5, but I'm not sure.
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So, if we assume 1810 as the last year Maggie LeFay could have been born, and sometime around 1970 or so as the year she died, then Maggie LeFay was, at minimum, 160 years old at the time of her death. She could've been as much as 80 or 90 years older than that, but she couldn't have been any younger.
Huh. Thanks. That`s interesting. In fact, the quote reveals that Maggie must have been born considerably before 1810, as the French-Indian War went from 1754-1763 (and really it was all over by 1760 in North America). If Jim wanted to write Maggie`s mother into this war, she must be at least, say, 20 by the time the war`s essentially over in 1760, or else she would struggle to play a significant role in the story. Theoretically, she might have had Maggie as late as when she was 50 years old (1790 at the latest), although this would be very uncommon in this time period. Generally, women had children in their 20`s or 30`s (or earlier) making a far more likely birth age for Maggie no later than about 1780. So, I would guess that Maggie was approaching 200 when she had Harry (which is really weird, but I guess that that`s wizards for you).
Of course, while interesting, Maggie`s age does not detract from my main interest in the timeline, which is that it seems that Maggie could only have been openly violating the Laws of Magic between some time soon after starting her relationship with Raith and when Thomas was born. As I stated, I am not sure when her relationship with Raith actually started, although I cannot imagine it lasted for a long time, but it seems curious that she would start openly breaking the Laws of Magic in this period. Regardless of what she was doing, I cannot imagine that she would benefit from having the White Council know about it, and it seems unlikely that it was just a mistake such as, for example, accidentally killing a mortal with a fire spell while panicked, as Eb specifically states that "she was guilty of violating the First Law, among others." You could accidentally violate one law, but accidentally violating multiple laws seems a bit of a stretch.
If we accept that Maggie would have no good reason to want the council to know that she was breaking the laws, then one wonders how the council found out. Did a wizard stumble upon her breaking the Laws of Magic by accident, was she placed under more intense scrutiny because of her association with Raith, or did she tip off Eb that something was going on at that dinner, which he then investigated, revealing the truth? To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time. :(
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To me, this period with Raith before Thomas was born seems to be the key to understanding Maggie, so it's too bad we can't do any more than speculate about what was going on at the time. :(
Well, we know that Raith had some control over her, even though he never managed to control her completely. He may have had a detrimental effect on her judgement. Or, just as likely, something involving messing around with Outsiders caused her to become more reckless and violent. Of course, that last one is contingent upon whether or not you think Maggie was part of the group that originally started summoning Outsiders back onto the Earthly plane, or into the Nevernever near Earth.
Some people have mentioned that they can see Maggie being a part of the group, but not founding it. To that, I would ask how they think Outsiders started coming back into the universe, if the Gatekeeper is Gatekeeping properly. Neither the White Council nor the Senior Council have made any accusations toward Rashid that we've heard about, and yet, Outsiders have fought beside Red Court vampires multiple times. They've been getting in somehow, but the Gatekeeper remains at his post as usual. So, it seems to me that the Senior Council must think the Outsiders are somehow getting around the Gatekeeper, rather than coming in with his help.
And if you accept that the Outer Gates are probably thin points between Earth's universe and the Outside, or the Nevernever and the Outside, then someone must have found a thin spot that the Gatekeeper wasn't guarding. Enter Maggie LeFay, who could apparently hunt down a path from almost anywhere to almost anywhere else. She just seems like the most obvious candidate for that type of thing.
When you add in the fact that she was attached to Lord Raith, that she was friends with Justin DuMorne, and that both Raith and DuMorne called on He Who Walks Behind-- it seems like an obvious next step that Maggie must have been the one to find an undiscovered Outer Gate. And if her personality was anything like Harry's or Ebenezer's, then she was probably one of the more powerful personalities in the group, even if she was somewhat under Lord Raith's control.
The descriptions of Maggie make her seem more formidable than DuMorne, and she would obviously know more about magic than Raith. Formidable + knowledgeable + a powerful personality = someone likely in charge, or near the top of the hierarchy, imho.
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Not in the DV. They are real things with real consequences, esp. when magic gets mixed in.
If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul. It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells. But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist. She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.
Everything they do on a daily basis has consequences on their souls. Doesn't make it a fact rather than an opinion. At most it's the opinion of TWG. Which, while pretty weighty, does not make it fact.
As to turning into a monster, I think Inez already covered that for me.
This is why Luccio's account doesn't make sense, and why Ebenezar's does.
Remember, if Luccio is right, then there's no reason Margaret couldn't have turned to Ebenezar and the White Council for help and protection when she was on the run from Lord Raith. She's pregnant, married to a mortal, and running from the White Court. If she was just misguided, then she could go the Wardens for help, and she could pay for that help, too.
She would be a gold mine of intel about the White Court, after all. That alone would be a good enough reason to protect Margaret from Raith.
But if she was a warlock, guilty of multiple major crimes, then her failure to turn to the Council for help makes perfect sense. But that makes Luccio's account wrong.
Or, an alternate way of looking at is they were both giving accounts from different points in Margaret's life. If Eb's account is true then both likely were. Or Eb may have known quite a bit more about her towards the end what with being her father and the blackstaff both. Or Luccio may have been giving her the benefit of the doubt seeing as there hadn't been a hearing yet while Eb wasn't. Or it may have been the old "multiple eye-witnesses with no two accounts matching" syndrome.
Too many or's to say for sure at this point I think.
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Or, an alternate way of looking at is they were both giving accounts from different points in Margaret's life. If Eb's account is true then both likely were. Or Eb may have known quite a bit more about her towards the end what with being her father and the blackstaff both. Or Luccio may have been giving her the benefit of the doubt seeing as there hadn't been a hearing yet while Eb wasn't. Or it may have been the old "multiple eye-witnesses with no two accounts matching" syndrome.
Too many or's to say for sure at this point I think.
Yes, Margaret most likely did some bad things, or were they all that bad? Yes, she rebelled against Eb, and she rebelled against the White Council, she ran with a rough crowd, most likely the Black Council for a while, ran with Justin, took up with Lord Raith and had a child by him. No doubt she was punching her ticket to hell, old Chez confirms that, but she wasn't past redemption, that is the important part. That is the part we never hear about, I think it was more than just falling in love with Malcolm Dresden, a lot has to do with the conception of Harry, the why of it, that last part is still very very vague. I think the key to the whole series is Margaret's redemption and why she conceived Harry//
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If Margaret was breaking the Laws of Magic on any regular basis, there would be consequences to her soul. It can take various forms, from the Korean kid to Kemmler to Justin or Victor Sells. But a misguided idealist who starts regularly breaking the Laws won't stay a misguided idealist. She'll turn into one or another sort of monster.
So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".
I think black-magic corruption has got to be way more complex than we've seen, or than Harry knows, both because of the Kumori bit* and because the way Cowl and, apparently, Kemmler are evil is very different from Sells or the Korean kid in PG or what's hinted about Bad-Future-Molly. Cowl is still in full possession of his mental resources, and not *pointlessly* cruel; Kemmler was capable of carrying out super-long-term plans and genius-level magical research - neither seem to have been suffering from the "addicted/enslaved" or even animalistic stuff we see from "classical" black-magic corruption.
*Granted, we don't know how long she's been doing it, but she's been working with Cowl for at least years by DB [they're together in GP], and Cowl is likely not the type to take a totally green unknown under his wing...
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I think that is why the White Council routinely chops off the heads of all young warlocks with Harry and Molly being the few exceptions. It isn't just because so few full wizards have the guts to step up and take the responsibility and the possible punishment with them, but the belief that black magic is habit forming addictive magic, it corrupts completely and cannot be rehabbed. So the White Council believes it is only the kindest thing, but the safest thing to do is to lop off the head before more people get hurt.
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Maggie Sr's Minimum age is 162 years old, when Harry was born.
How does this datum fit with Luccio's observations in WN on the return of fertility being a major change for her once she got Alicia Nelson's body ? Are we counting those as entirely part of her being enthralled ?
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How does this datum fit with Luccio's observations in WN on the return of fertility being a major change for her once she got Alicia Nelson's body ? Are we counting those as entirely part of her being enthralled ?
It doesn't, Luccio did give the impression that a wizard woman's fertile years were the same as that for a vanilla female. However if that is true, and Margaret was between 25 and 45 when she had both Thomas and Harry, it says that wizard men have libido and stay fertile for a very long time, because that says Eb had to be well over 200 closer to maybe 250 when Margaret was born. It also blows out of the water that Eb met his vanilla mortal wife during the French and Indian War and married her.
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Yes, Margaret most likely did some bad things, or were they all that bad?
Does Eb not say she broke Laws including the First ? Killing people with magic seems pretty bad to me.
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So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".
I see no evidence that Kumori has actually misused wizard-magic in the ways that corrupt. Or indeed that Cowl has; I would suspect Harry could have sensed it from the touch of their magic if they had.
*Granted, we don't know how long she's been doing it, but she's been working with Cowl for at least years by DB [they're together in GP]
is that confirmed in the text ? I cannot recall, at the moment.
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Does Eb not say she broke Laws including the First ? Killing people with magic seems pretty bad to me.
As we've seen with Harry, some "breakings" can be gray areas. Truth to be told, we only have one side of the story on Margaret LeFay.
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I see no evidence that Kumori has actually misused wizard-magic in the ways that corrupt. Or indeed that Cowl has; I would suspect Harry could have sensed it from the touch of their magic if they had.
There was a greasy taste in the air around them which Harry associates with black magic, ether that or the Chicago air was bad that night.
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Does Eb not say she broke Laws including the First ? Killing people with magic seems pretty bad to me.
Eb was explaining why the Council, and he himself, were after Maggie. Her reasons for killing someone with magic were never discussed, and from the apparent timeline of everything else, the First Law breakage must have occurred after she took up with Lord Raith, and probably after she got involved with Outsiders. Maggie may not have been entirely under her own control when she killed someone. Or the situation may not have been simple or easy to define as good or evil, like when Harry killed Justin.
Myself, I'd rather withhold judgement until we find out what happened and why.
I see no evidence that Kumori has actually misused wizard-magic in the ways that corrupt. Or indeed that Cowl has; I would suspect Harry could have sensed it from the touch of their magic if they had.
Harry does sense a residue of dark magic when Cowl blasts him with force outside of Bock's bookstore. He also mentions, though, that there's some residue of dark magic on his own magic, as well. As far as I can remember, Harry never specifically mentions sensing anything dark about Kumori's magic-- aside from the fact that she used necromancy to save Random Guy's life. But the necromancy she used did not have the feel of black magic to it, which is what clued Harry in that it was even possible to perform necromancy without it being black magic.
is that confirmed in the text ? I cannot recall, at the moment.
It is. Cowl and Kumori confirm it themselves, or seem to, when they talk to Harry outside the bookstore.
It doesn't, Luccio did give the impression that a wizard woman's fertile years were the same as that for a vanilla female. However if that is true, and Margaret was between 25 and 45 when she had both Thomas and Harry, it says that wizard men have libido and stay fertile for a very long time, because that says Eb had to be well over 200 closer to maybe 250 when Margaret was born. It also blows out of the water that Eb met his vanilla mortal wife during the French and Indian War and married her.
We have WoJ on when Eb met Maggie LeFay's mother, so it's not wrong. I suspect that what's wrong is taking Luccio's comments and extrapolating them into a broad guess about all female wizards. I'm just guessing, but I suspect a woman's fertility may greatly depend upon the woman in question. A recent WoJ:
I’ve been wondering, is a magic-users longevity/ability to repair themselves due to their use of magic, or is it because they are able to access magic at all?
It’s because they /use/ magic.
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And is the longevity tied to strength levels, as in do stronger wizards live longer?
Indeed. In the Dresden Files universe, magic is the essence of creation itself. Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes.
So, it may be that a woman who uses a great deal of magic on a fairly regular basis can retain her fertility for quite some time. The more magic she uses, the more the "essence of creation" affects her. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me that one of the effects could be a longer period in which she could create life herself.
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So, it may be that a woman who uses a great deal of magic on a fairly regular basis can retain her fertility for quite some time. The more magic she uses, the more the "essence of creation" affects her. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me that one of the effects could be a longer period in which she could create life herself
There is a little problem of biology, though I guess that goes out the window because we are talking fantasy verses reality, but still there is a problem older female verses older male. Men make sperm constantly, yes, the sperm count goes down and the libido slows as a man goes into his elder years, but still he should be able to father a child under the right conditions. With women it is different, a woman is born with all the eggs she is going to ever have in her ovaries when she is born. A woman's best years to reproduce are from her late teens to mid-thirties, after that is isn't so much a libido issue as her eggs begin to age. The older the egg is when it is fertilized the greater the chance for genetic breakdown in the egg and birth defects. So while women do have healthy children sometimes well into their fifties, it becomes rarer and they are taking greater risks with themselves and their baby.
Back to fantasy, I can see the period of fertility being extended for wizard women to the point where their peak child baring years might be from forty to sixty or even seventy years of age. I think what threw Luccio off was not just being in an immature [for a female wizard] female body, and having to deal with fertility issues again, but libido, she now had the sex drive of a young woman and not of a middle aged woman who had gone through menopause.
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There is a little problem of biology, though I guess that goes out the window because we are talking fantasy verses reality, but still there is a problem older female verses older male.
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Back to fantasy, I can see the period of fertility being extended for wizard women to the point where their peak child baring years might be from forty to sixty or even seventy years of age. I think what threw Luccio off was not just being in an immature [for a female wizard] female body, and having to deal with fertility issues again, but libido, she now had the sex drive of a young woman and not of a middle aged woman who had gone through menopause.
You just have to assume that part of the changes the "essence of creation" makes in a female wizard is that her body produces new eggs. Or that the original eggs duplicate themselves, or something. Or even that they simply go into a holding pattern, remaining viable and inside the woman until they get fertilized. We're talking about the force that supposedly created the universe from nothing here; surely it can allow a woman to maintain a constant state of health and fertility, if put to that use.
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You just have to assume that part of the changes the "essence of creation" makes in a female wizard is that her body produces new eggs. Or that the original eggs duplicate themselves, or something. Or even that they simply go into a holding pattern, remaining viable and inside the woman until they get fertilized. We're talking about the force that supposedly created the universe from nothing here; surely it can allow a woman to maintain a constant state of health and fertility, if put to that use.
Yes, least there be too many wizardlings running about the world. Or just have suspend belief on this one.
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Yes, least there be too many wizardlings running about the world. Or just have suspend belief on this one.
Thinking of the way Jim put it-- "Constant exposure to it through use changes the person who uses it in a number of ways, not all of them as obvious as physical recovery and longevity. The more exposure, the more dramatic the changes."-- makes me wonder about extreme cases. There have to be examples of wizards who use massive amounts of magic every day, for one reason or another. Maybe because they're working on a project that takes years to complete, or because they have powerful wards to be maintained, or some sort of responsibility which requires that they use a lot of magic every day-- something. But there have surely been cases like that in the past.
So I wonder what some of these dramatic changes are that can occur. Early onset of the Sight, the precognitive ability that Harry demonstrated on Demonreach, seems like one possibility. We already know that physical changes occur, because they're the two most well-known effects: the ability to completely recover from injuries over time, and a greatly extended lifespan. All wizards get these, to some degree, so it seems like they must be some of the first effects to occur.
And if those are the less dramatic, even least dramatic of the possible changes, it really makes me wonder what some of the others might be. Changes in size, hair color, eye color? New senses? Further alterations of the body? Producing unintentional effects upon one's surroundings?
Another question is whether or not the use of magic without language or in one's native language could accelerate these effects, at least on the wizard's mind. This could be dangerous, since apparently it's possible for a wizard to burn their mind out by doing that, but we know that it can be done without frying your brain, because Harry did it in Fool Moon. So I wonder if using magic that way for small things, and then for slightly stronger spells, would increase the alterations magic can have on someone's mind.
Also, a third question based on the last one: if Harry were to use soulfire while speaking a spell in English, or not speaking words at all, would it still be as dangerous? Or would the fact that his own soul was mixed with the magic do something to let it flow through his mind without as great a risk of injury?
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Really interesting thread - congrats folk!
It also blows out of the water that Eb met his vanilla mortal wife during the French and Indian War and married her.
How so? The WoJ quoted says Maggie's mom was a mortal (not vanilla mortal) and died in 1810. Eb & Merlin were "young bucks" (about 50 years old) during the French-Indian war, and fought on opposite sides. (That's recent WoJ contemplating writing a short story about it). Especially if Maggie's mom was vanilla mortal, Eb would almost have to meet her in & around the war to have any hope of having a child with her.
Secondly, if Maggie had to be born before 1810 (which is a given, since she can't have been born *after* her mother died), and she had Harry in 1973, (& Thomas apx 7 years earlier), then we have to accept that Maggie was still fertile at no less than 160.
I'm not sure how to explain Luccio. I'll have to go back and re-read that scene. Iirc, it was more about desire/lust, than about reproduction. But... well, yeah, I need to re-read. In any case, there can be absolutely no doubt that Maggie was fertile at that age. (Biologically, my best guess is that use of magic keeps the eggs from deteriorating. When I tried for children in my 40's, I conceived easily, but couldn't carry past 12 weeks - my eggs were too old. If I was a Wizard, presumably I wouldn't have that problem. And most women, oddly enough, have too many eggs left at the onset of menopause. In the few years before it kicks in, the body begins throwing as many out as possible.)
If we accept that Maggie would have no good reason to want the council to know that she was breaking the laws, then one wonders how the council found out.
Agree, completely. In fact, there are two things that bother me about the time line, though I don't have any doubts about it's basic integrity. During her dinner with Eb, she was clearly not being hunted. After that dinner, the WC thought she'd come to grief in the Nevernever, (well, maybe except for Eb). Five years pass, and when she turns on her (bad) allies, she's also hunted by the WC as a warlock. This seems like a major inconsistency to me. If they thought she was lost in the Nevernever, how could they decide she's a warlock? And if she was a busy little law breaker, under Raith's control or not, how could they think she was lost in the Nevernever?
The other is her death. I just can't see any new mother *wanting* to leave an infant child. And some of the theories in this thread are WAY convoluted. Still, it's clear that Malcolm and Harry were in some way her redemption. And Occams razor suggests that she was shielding against Raith (& others) while on the run, but couldn't hold a shield and have a baby at the same time.
Last bit of my two cents - boy did I stretch it out - is that I'm definitely in the group that thinks Maggie was a thorn in the council's side, running around risking death in the Nevernever, talking to minor demons, but not crossing the line, for most of her life.
Oh and I think it was a brilliant guess that she's the one who found the doorway to Outside in the far reaches of the Nevernever... though I'm not convinced she *did* much of anything with Outsiders. Just by finding it, she made it vulnerable.
All right, my two cents is now copper wire...
Ona
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How so? The WoJ quoted says Maggie's mom was a mortal (not vanilla mortal) and died in 1810. Eb & Merlin were "young bucks" (about 50 years old) during the French-Indian war, and fought on opposite sides. (That's recent WoJ contemplating writing a short story about it). Especially if Maggie's mom was vanilla mortal, Eb would almost have to meet her in & around the war to have any hope of having a child with her.
This is where problems arise, what the author actually writes in his books, verses what is said at some book signing etc. This is one of the few cases where there is nothing to dispute the WOJ, because nothing is written about Maggie's mother, where and how Eb met her and why she died. I have called her a vanilla mortal, because I read that here. Wizards live a long time, but they are still mortals, so to call Eb's wife a "mortal" doesn't say much about her except she wasn't one of the Fae, vampire,or a goddess of some kind who are immortal.
Secondly, if Maggie had to be born before 1810 (which is a given, since she can't have been born *after* her mother died), and she had Harry in 1973, (& Thomas apx 7 years earlier), then we have to accept that Maggie was still fertile at no less than 160.
We have only the WOJ on any of this, it is odd that in the books there is no information on grandma, and very little about Margaret LeFay, I am willing to bet that both grandma and Margaret, will be heavily featured in some future book. There is a key there, I believe Margaret's redemption [which very little is known, except that it happened with the meeting of Malcolm, or at that time] is key to why Harry is so important and why he is the way that he is.
I'm not sure how to explain Luccio. I'll have to go back and re-read that scene. Iirc, it was more about desire/lust, than about reproduction. But... well, yeah, I need to re-read. In any case, there can be absolutely no doubt that Maggie was fertile at that age. (Biologically, my best guess is that use of magic keeps the eggs from deteriorating. When I tried for children in my 40's, I conceived easily, but couldn't carry past 12 weeks - my eggs were too old. If I was a Wizard, presumably I wouldn't have that problem. And most women, oddly enough, have too many eggs left at the onset of menopause. In the few years before it kicks in, the body begins throwing as many out as possible.)
Luccio may simply have meant sexual desire, but then again, that shouldn't stop just because sexual reproduction stops, it doesn't for ordinary vanilla females. Since Luccio also hints that she was very sexually active as a young wizard, and at around 200 wasn't all that old before she got her new body, why did she stop having sex? From what she said about Morgan etc, I think it may have been more choice, because in her position as captain of the Wardens, sex just caused too many hassels and conflicts.
Agree, completely. In fact, there are two things that bother me about the time line, though I don't have any doubts about it's basic integrity. During her dinner with Eb, she was clearly not being hunted. After that dinner, the WC thought she'd come to grief in the Nevernever, (well, maybe except for Eb). Five years pass, and when she turns on her (bad) allies, she's also hunted by the WC as a warlock. This seems like a major inconsistency to me. If they thought she was lost in the Nevernever, how could they decide she's a warlock? And if she was a busy little law breaker, under Raith's control or not, how could they think she was lost in the Nevernever?
She may have still have been hunted, Eb being her father may have come to the dinner with the idea of burying the hatchet, since Margaret was with Lord Raith now, there might have been treaty considerations that put her beyond White Council justice for the moment. But I agree with you, there seems to be a conflict.
The other is her death. I just can't see any new mother *wanting* to leave an infant child. And some of the theories in this thread are WAY convoluted. Still, it's clear that Malcolm and Harry were in some way her redemption. And Occams razor suggests that she was shielding against Raith (& others) while on the run, but couldn't hold a shield and have a baby at the same time.
I don't think she wanted to die, but I also think she knew Lord Raith was after her. Going back to my theory on this, Margaret knew about Lord Raith immunity to magic, given I think by his relationship with the Outsiders, she knew he would kill her if he could, so she planned her death curse accordingly, and somehow got around the Outsider protection that he has. She couldn't kill him outright, but she decommissioned him by blocking his ability to feed. She was also protected by true love, so Lord Raith couldn't get her in his usual manner.
Last bit of my two cents - boy did I stretch it out - is that I'm definitely in the group that thinks Maggie was a thorn in the council's side, running around risking death in the Nevernever, talking to minor demons, but not crossing the line, for most of her life.
I can go along with that, several members of the Senior Council said as much, it is the same rap they have against Harry, mother and son both upset the established order of the White Council even though they never actually broke any laws, though I think it is clear that she did.
Oh and I think it was a brilliant guess that she's the one who found the doorway to Outside in the far reaches of the Nevernever... though I'm not convinced she *did* much of anything with Outsiders. Just by finding it, she made it vulnerable.
She may have found a doorway, and I do not think she did anything with Outsiders either. However it is my theory, that she did discover a conspiracy afoot, the Black Council in cooperation with the Outsiders to over run the White Council and then the world. I think the Outsiders saw Justin as an decent teacher of Elaine and Harry, but never trusted Justin because of his background as a Warden for the White Council. HWWB was testing Harry, with the idea that either Harry would pass or be eliminated, but what he hadn't counted on was Harry's strong moral sense of right and wrong. When HWWB murdered the poor clerk in such a horrible way, Harry's desire to protect the innocent kicked in and he kicked HWWB's butt to his surprise. Harry wasn't just 16, he was barely 16, this happened in mid-November, Harry had just turned 16 on Halloween.
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So Kumori isn't "regularly breaking the Laws"? She strikes me as very "misguided idealist".
The problem is the context of Luccio's comments. That's what makes it so hard to reconcile wiht the other accounts from the other people. You can do it, you can put interpretations on the other versions, and Luccio's, that will make them fit together...but you have to stretch things considerably because of the context.
The kind of 'misguided idealist' that Luccio described isn't the kind that would produce the accounts we get from Nicodemus and Thomas and Lea and Chaunzoggoroth and Eb. It's not Kumori's kind of idealist. Luccio talked about the Wardens being assigned to watch Margaret, and spoke of her disappearing for 5 years to be with Lord Raith, but there was no hint of anything about her being a warlock. At all.
And Harry's reaction is just as weird, which makes me consider the whole conversation weird. Even if what Harry thought he knew was all wrong, it's still what he thought he knew, you'd expect him to react to what Luccio was saying, at least in his own thoughts. But he doesn't.
Imagine for a moment that you've spent your entire adult life combating some ghastly practice, let's say slave trafficing and organ legging and murder. You worked against it as a private citizen in your younger days, and became successful enough at it that the FBI recruited you to do it as an agent. Working to shut down the people doing it, and protect others from them, is what you've pretty much dedicated your life to doing.
Further assume that your mother, who died in childbirth, was as far as you know heavy into that very activity, she was a murderess, a slave trader, an organ legger, she associated with the worst criminals on the Most Wanted List on a regular basis, as far as you knew. Your older brother, who can remember her, gives an account that corroborates this. Some of the criminals you've taken on made references to working with her, some of the older FBI guys around you remember her as well, and their accounts are unpleasant and disturbing and match what you had heard elsewhere.
An old friend of your mother's, who has a psychological block that prevents her from lying, gives you an account that, again, tallies with the bad stuff.
But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.
Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?! That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.
Weird.
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Problem is, Harry knows almost nothing about his mother, he knows from the brief soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie didn't seem like a wicked woman. Harry had a chance to ask Lea questions about his mother, but little information is given. However bad she appears to be, she never was so far gone that the love of a and for a very good man couldn't redeem her.
He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction. It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather. Eb has said that Harry is a lot like his mother, but still he has very little of substance to say about her. Margaret LeFay by in large remains a mystery.
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Maggie seems to have been somewhat of a free spirit in the early days and seems to have gotten darker and became a dangerous warlock at some point. She was a feared witch according to some accounts and even her apparition in the soulgaze between Thomas and Harry called her arrogant. Regarding the meeting between Eb, Lord Raith, Arianna, and her, it could have happened after the death warrant was established. Eb implies that he can disregard the Council's decisions when it comes to family in Blood Rites after the raid on Mavra's compound, saying he should have killed Harry but what is the point of being able to disregard the laws and not use it.
He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction. It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather.
After Ghost Story I think Harry's opinion on monsters is a little different seeing as at "Inez's" insistence he is a monster himself. He also has resolved the fact that Eb is the Blackstaff of the Council. Regarding his mother though seems like he wants her to be a good person despite the views of others.
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After Ghost Story I think Harry's opinion on monsters is a little different seeing as at "Inez's" insistence he is a monster himself. He also has resolved the fact that Eb is the Blackstaff of the Council. Regarding his mother though seems like he wants her to be a good person despite the views of others.
It took a while, Harry didn't speak to Eb for quite a while, Harry felt betrayed, it was a trust issue. Harry saw Eb as the most ethical man he ever knew, that he represented everything that was good about magic. Then to find out that Eb was the Blackstaff, the White Council's assassin, that hurt him greatly.
In the soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie called herself arrogant, not Harry.
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Read the OP, haven't read anything else yet, I thought the theory was really cool, and I especially liked the possible Third Eye / Kumori connection.
Anyway, I wanted to mention an idea that I've had a while, in case somebody sees it connecting to the theory in a good way.
The parallel universes that Jim has described and that we will explore (or at least get a taste of) in Mirror Mirror - THAT is the Outside.
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The parallel universes that Jim has described and that we will explore (or at least get a taste of) in Mirror Mirror - THAT is the Outside.
I think that could be it, too. It makes a kind of sense to me.
But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.
Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?! That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.
Weird.
I refer you to the end of this post (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28692.msg1230633.html#msg1230633), and all of this post (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28692.msg1230691.html#msg1230691).
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The problem is the context of Luccio's comments. That's what makes it so hard to reconcile wiht the other accounts from the other people. You can do it, you can put interpretations on the other versions, and Luccio's, that will make them fit together...but you have to stretch things considerably because of the context.
The kind of 'misguided idealist' that Luccio described isn't the kind that would produce the accounts we get from Nicodemus and Thomas and Lea and Chaunzoggoroth and Eb. It's not Kumori's kind of idealist. Luccio talked about the Wardens being assigned to watch Margaret, and spoke of her disappearing for 5 years to be with Lord Raith, but there was no hint of anything about her being a warlock. At all.
And Harry's reaction is just as weird, which makes me consider the whole conversation weird. Even if what Harry thought he knew was all wrong, it's still what he thought he knew, you'd expect him to react to what Luccio was saying, at least in his own thoughts. But he doesn't.
Imagine for a moment that you've spent your entire adult life combating some ghastly practice, let's say slave trafficing and organ legging and murder. You worked against it as a private citizen in your younger days, and became successful enough at it that the FBI recruited you to do it as an agent. Working to shut down the people doing it, and protect others from them, is what you've pretty much dedicated your life to doing.
Further assume that your mother, who died in childbirth, was as far as you know heavy into that very activity, she was a murderess, a slave trader, an organ legger, she associated with the worst criminals on the Most Wanted List on a regular basis, as far as you knew. Your older brother, who can remember her, gives an account that corroborates this. Some of the criminals you've taken on made references to working with her, some of the older FBI guys around you remember her as well, and their accounts are unpleasant and disturbing and match what you had heard elsewhere.
An old friend of your mother's, who has a psychological block that prevents her from lying, gives you an account that, again, tallies with the bad stuff.
But then, one day, you happen to discuss her with the FBI director, who was also in charge of the FBI back in the day, and his account is totally different, instead of a murderess and a criminal he talks about her being a war protester who hung out with a bad bunch for while, but mentions absolutely nothing about murder, slave trading, or anthing else of the sort...and the time-line of his account conflicts with the other versions.
Don't you think that under those conditions, you'd at least note that discrepency to yourself?! That's the equivalent of where Harry was at the time of the conversation in TC, yet he doesn't even seem to blink at it.
Weird.
I don't see any discrepancy between the accounts.
Just look at what people say about Harry!
Luccio (Dead Beat): The Council has been betrayed, Dresden. And you are the most infamous wizard in it. There are many who have spoken out against you. Many who say that you began the war with the Red Court intentionally so that you could create an opportunity to bring about the fall of the Council... I think that you do not realize your own reputation. You have overcome more enemies and battled more evils than most wizards a century your senior. And times are changing. There are more young wizards attaining membership to the Council than ever before--like Ramirez and his companions, there. To them, you are a symbol of defiance to the conservative elements of the Council, and a hero who will risk his life when his principles demand it.
Eldest Gruff (Small Favor): "We hear tales of thee, young wizard... We too like stories about... Underdogs."
And I'm looking for one particular quote that I can't find because I can't remember who said it, but I think it was a girl and she was telling Harry straight to his face the many different things she's heard about him, but she doesn't really care because they can deal anyway
And then there's whatever was said in Side Jobs, which I don't have access to
Harry would have had no reason to think anything strange about Luccio's account beyond what he actually did think: "Oh shit, possible info about my mom incoming!" He knows that every account he has heard or will hear about his mother is just hearsay, and a dangerous witch on bad terms with the White Council and good terms with possibly many nasty creatures with an amazing knowledge of the Nevernever who spent several years missing... is INCREDIBLY mysterious. You can't expect any sort of consistency from that... and actually, we have had quite a bit of consistency
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My guess about Maggie is she was an idealist who wanted change in the WC. Some may have been doable good ideas, others not so much. She was contacted and recruited by agents of the BC such as King Raith and then told half truths and lies about making the world a better place. By the time she found out the truth she was in too deep and she was going to hunted down from everyone from the Wardens to the Black Council.
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Problem is, Harry knows almost nothing about his mother, he knows from the brief soul gaze with Thomas, Maggie didn't seem like a wicked woman. Harry had a chance to ask Lea questions about his mother, but little information is given.
Each one gave a tidbit, but there were several tidbits and they added up to a nasty picture.
However bad she appears to be, she never was so far gone that the love of a and for a very good man couldn't redeem her.
Which fits well with Harry's psychological romanticism, but doesn't really change what he heard from Chaunzoggoroth, Nicodemus, Thomas, Eb, and Lea. And what they told him did add up to an evil woman.
He may just may not be able to come to terms that his mother might have been a monster, hence the non reaction. It was hard enough for him to learn that Eb was the Blackstaff, and at that point in time he didn't know he was his grandfather. Eb has said that Harry is a lot like his mother, but still he has very little of substance to say about her.
Eb said that she broke the First Law, among others, and was using the Council's Laws against it. In short, that she was a warlock. That's a pretty substantive claim, if true.
Nicodemus claimed to have known her, fondly, and her ability to create something like a baby version of a mindshadow tends to support that claim's veracity. That's substantive, too.
Thomas didn't know much, but what he'd heard and remembered added up to, in his own words about their mother, "...one Hell of a dangerous witch."
And so on. Harry had several sources and though each one gave him small pieces, the pieces added up to a picture. Luccio's account is definitely the odd one out.
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I mean, that situation is bound to be awkward. What would you have said if you were in her place? Would you have gone off on how much of a warlock she was, when you knew that wasn't what your date wanted to know about their mother?
Given their background, the respect she supposedly has for him, and the stakes of their world? Yeah, I'd expect the straight truth.
Hell, Luccio may have still been sort of hoping to get laid that night. You have to keep things in perspective.
I would expect that sort of thinking from a 20-something trying to get laid, yes. But Luccio is a grownup, and is supposed to see Harry as the same.
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I would expect that sort of thinking from a 20-something trying to get laid, yes. But Luccio is a grownup, and is supposed to see Harry as the same.
Well, the trying to get laid part was mostly a joke. Although, Luccio was the one to point out what a roomy back seat the Silver Wraith had, so who knows?
Given their background, the respect she supposedly has for him, and the stakes of their world? Yeah, I'd expect the straight truth.
Luccio was telling Harry about who Maggie was, not just facts about things she'd done. And that was what Harry wanted to know, and because Luccio cared about him, she understood that and was trying to help. Much the same way that Murphy might have done in her place, I'd imagine.
Other people have told Harry, and us, such things as, "Maggie LeFay was acquainted with this person and this person and this person, and she committed this crime," and then they've left it to Harry, and us, to draw our own conclusions from those statements. Luccio is the only one yet to say, "Maggie was like this and like this and like this, and she loved these things, and believed in these things." Luccio is the only one who has given us any information at all about why Maggie LeFay behaved the way she did, rather than simply pointing out isolated facts and letting us draw our own conclusions from them. Dismissing everything she said just because it seems somehow out of place from your point of view seems like a huge mistake, to me.
Drawing conclusions based entirely on who someone knows and a few things that person has done can lead to terribly flawed results. Here, I can prove it:
"Harry Dresden is acquainted with multiple demons, has summoned a demon on multiple occasions, and struck bargains with this demon more than once. He is intimately acquainted with a Fallen angel, and has received multiple forms of power from that Fallen angel. He is acquainted with several Knights of the Blackened Denarius, has met Denarians several times, and has participated in deals with them on more than one occasion.
Dresden is guilty of breaking the First Law. He has done so at least once, and many on the White Council believe he may have done so more than once. He has summoned a zombie to the certain knowledge of no less than five Wardens, but was able to escape execution by way of a technicality.
He has many times been seen in the company of various members of the White Court, is known to speak an ancient language spoken among their ruling families, and has struck bargains with the ruler of that Court on more than one occasion.
Dresden is known to have had many dealings with the most powerful of the Unseelie fae, and is the personal champion of Mab, the Queen of wicked faeries herself."
--yet all of that would not give someone a very accurate idea of who Harry is at all. Ebenezer, Maggie's father, is the person who taught Harry how to use magic for the right reasons, and what those reasons were. He taught Harry by behaving as an example of the virtues he expected Harry to live by. And yet, Ebenezer is also the Blackstaff, and he has apparently used magic to commit terrible atrocities with magic, in service to the White Council. Both of those behaviors are a true part of who Ebenezer is, despite the fact that they seem to contradict one another.
Given that Harry is as complex as he is, and that Ebenezer seems to be just as complex, why should we expect Eb's daughter, Harry's mother, to be easily defined or simple of nature? According to Luccio, Maggie was at least as smart as Eb or Harry, and maybe smarter. The long-term planning Maggie did on Harry's behalf is a pretty good confirmation of this, in my opinion. So why should she be simple, when neither her son nor her father are?
Also, Luccio's description of Maggie fits what we saw from Maggie's personality imprint in a way that the raw facts from Chauncy or Nicodemus, or even Ebenezer, did not. And since that's the only time we've ever had the chance to see Maggie in action, it seems like one of the more vital sources of information on the subject.
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Other people have told Harry, and us, such things as, "Maggie LeFay was acquainted with this person and this person and this person, and she committed this crime," and then they've left it to Harry, and us, to draw our own conclusions from those statements. Luccio is the only one yet to say, "Maggie was like this and like this and like this, and she loved these things, and believed in these things." Luccio is the only one who has given us any information at all about why Maggie LeFay behaved the way she did, rather than simply pointing out isolated facts and letting us draw our own conclusions from them. Dismissing everything she said just because it seems somehow out of place from your point of view seems like a huge mistake, to me.
Drawing conclusions based entirely on who someone knows and a few things that person has done can lead to terribly flawed results. Here, I can prove it:
"Harry Dresden is acquainted with multiple demons, has summoned a demon on multiple occasions, and struck bargains with this demon more than once. He is intimately acquainted with a Fallen angel, and has received multiple forms of power from that Fallen angel. He is acquainted with several Knights of the Blackened Denarius, has met Denarians several times, and has participated in deals with them on more than one occasion.
Dresden is guilty of breaking the First Law. He has done so at least once, and many on the White Council believe he may have done so more than once. He has summoned a zombie to the certain knowledge of no less than five Wardens, but was able to escape execution by way of a technicality.
He has many times been seen in the company of various members of the White Court, is known to speak an ancient language spoken among their ruling families, and has struck bargains with the ruler of that Court on more than one occasion.
Dresden is known to have had many dealings with the most powerful of the Unseelie fae, and is the personal champion of Mab, the Queen of wicked faeries herself."
--yet all of that would not give someone a very accurate idea of who Harry is at all. Ebenezer, Maggie's father, is the person who taught Harry how to use magic for the right reasons, and what those reasons were. He taught Harry by behaving as an example of the virtues he expected Harry to live by. And yet, Ebenezer is also the Blackstaff, and he has apparently used magic to commit terrible atrocities with magic, in service to the White Council. Both of those behaviors are a true part of who Ebenezer is, despite the fact that they seem to contradict one another.
Given that Harry is as complex as he is, and that Ebenezer seems to be just as complex, why should we expect Eb's daughter, Harry's mother, to be easily defined or simple of nature? According to Luccio, Maggie was at least as smart as Eb or Harry, and maybe smarter. The long-term planning Maggie did on Harry's behalf is a pretty good confirmation of this, in my opinion. So why should she be simple, when neither her son nor her father are?
Also, Luccio's description of Maggie fits what we saw from Maggie's personality imprint in a way that the raw facts from Chauncy or Nicodemus, or even Ebenezer, did not. And since that's the only time we've ever had the chance to see Maggie in action, it seems like one of the more vital sources of information on the subject.
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Excellent points.