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Messages - Belial666

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46
DFRPG / Re: the laws of magic
« on: June 21, 2014, 11:01:33 PM »
Forget everything about the metaphysical part of the Laws for a moment and think about it this way;

1) Invading minds is forcing yourself into a person's most intimate parts without consent. Getting information from someone forcibly is like beating them up until they tell you. Changing people's minds forcibly is like lobotomizing them or doing shock therapy until you get the desired outcome.
1b) Believing that rape, torture and mutilation makes you what you are (wizard or otherwise) means you're dangerously, undeniably insane. Lawbreaker ahoy.


2) Transforming someone into less than human (such as a pig ala Circe) by force means a) they no longer have usable hands or upright position, b) they no longer have free will, c) they no longer are intelligent at the same level since they don't have a human brain.
2b) Believing that slavery and mutilation makes you what you are (wizard or otherwise) means you're dangerously, undeniably insane. Lawbreaker ahoy.


3)
Quote
if you agree that the rules hamper the fun of playing a wizard
Nope. The rules say that if you are a dangerous, undeniably insane guy with access to the equivalent of high explosives or worse and like to use them one of the following applies;
a) You've become dangerously insane on some level. If your stability of personality and free will (refresh) was not good to begin with (only had 1 point left) then you lose it and become a monster.
b) Dude, you're dangerously insane and have access to high explosives that cannot be taken from you. Even if you didn't degenerate into a total monster, the wizard secret police (and any police) will totally try to shorten you by a head.

3b) If you're having fun lobotomizing, mutilating and raping people, then chances are you already have Lawbreaker and don't know it. Better add it to your sheet - you might as well get the benefits along with all the negatives you have anyway.


4) Dresden is insane at some level. He recognizes it himself. It is even metaphysically confirmed multiple times in the series. That's not only because he broke some Laws but it did play a part. A big one.

47
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 21, 2014, 10:28:35 AM »
1) Eb had a problem with Lord Raith because Thaumaturgy needs a direct magical sympathetic link to the target. If the target can't be affected by direct magic, you are not going to tie any Thaumaturgy to him - at least not one targeting him in the physical or mental levels where his protection is. Eb could have thrown a meteor on the house Raith was in or make an earthquake swallow it and thus kill him indirectly but Raith was no fool; he would have never stayed long enough in the same location for a big ritual to hit him thus.

2) Attacking something with magic indirectly has happened several times. Against Lord Raith (keys), the Hecatean Hag's ritual (boulder), the Grendelkin (bones), the Genoskwa (ice), the Genoskwa and Asher (falling boulders). There may be other instances I'm forgetting ATM.


3) Throwing stuff with magic isn't the only indirect attack one can do. Morgan and his devoured-by-the-Earth spell is a good example. Yoshimo's animating a tree and having it tear several targets to pieces is another. Dresden's melting the stone beneath the ground and having it spring up as magma is a third. The gravity spell might work - especially if there's a ceiling above the bad guy's head. You'll notice that all of the above are basically Earth magic.

48
DFRPG / Re: magica immunity
« on: June 21, 2014, 10:10:02 AM »
The immunity power on the Wiki is way overpriced. The standard immunity assumes that an effective +8 to defense rolls makes you immune against someone with equal skill because they are never going to hit you. Then, with defense bonuses costing 1 refresh per overall +1 bonus, assigns Physical Immunity a base cost of 8 refresh. I'd call that a fair pricing, given the catch and it being limited to only stress and a single type of stress at that.


Compare with someone having Mythic Speed, a "Monk Training" stunt/power giving +2 to athletics defense when unencumbered, and an "Elusive Target" stunt/power allowing them to always use Athletics as their defense skill. That's 8 refresh for +5 to defense, +8 when sprinting. Your chance to hit them with a normal attack is what, one in eighty?
It's less powerful than outright immunity because sufficient FP and Aspects (or really high Control for magic) could overcome the difference BUT it applies to maneuvers and blocks as well as stress and it has no Catch -  a Knight of the Cross will still have to deal with your defense bonus while you pound him.

49
DFRPG / Re: magica immunity
« on: June 20, 2014, 12:29:24 AM »
And yet a proper magic circle works on a Loup Garou, even though you can't damage it with magic.

50
DFRPG / Re: magica immunity
« on: June 20, 2014, 12:07:31 AM »
If a creature is immune to fire, then it will be immune to all types of fire. That doesn't make it immune to a car or jet plane falling on it though - even though the car and jet plane are propelled by burning fuel. Neither will it be immune to firearms, even though firearms burn propellant to launch their bullets. The same applies to magic. If something is immune to just magic, it won't be immune to any projectile thrown by magic or other indirect applications.


Also, Physical Immunity only applies to stress and consequences for a base cost of 8 refresh. There is no power in the RPG to make something immune to maneuvers and blocks - so a wizard could bind a creature up with magic then cut its throat with a knife.
That's exactly what Wardens usually do to warlocks BTW - and it doesn't even violate the Laws.

51
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 08:32:23 PM »
Quote
So is it intended to replace normal spellcasting or not?
It doesn't have to, but it can. Spend only a couple of refresh and it's complementary to your primary casting. Spend a lot of refresh and it could replace Evocation altogether. It costs significantly more than Evocation for the same results but it doesn't need stress either.

52
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 08:19:34 PM »
"I Declare there is a ground beneath his feet, then I use Earthstomp to have the ground eat him."

There's a reason Morgan with his Earth magic got within striking distance of the Red King himself in the big fight with the Red Court (not counting the one in Chichen Itza). And by the time you can pull off 8+ shift evocations, you can always find large stuff to throw at an enemy. Cars, trucks, walls, small houses, bridges and so on and so forth.
From what we've seen in the books, Earth magic is the go-to for immunity negation, Fire is the go-to for blasting dark entities and spirits, Water is the go-to for not being affected by running water and stuff and Air and Spirit are the generalist schools.


PS:
A tank would be around weapon 12. Those things weigh 60 tons. Weapon 9 is a medium truck or a large wrecking ball.

53
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 07:55:15 PM »
Lord Raith's immunity would be;
[-3] Physical Immunity vs Magic (protects against physical stress/consequences)
[-3] Mental Immunity vs Magic (protects against mental stress/consequences)
[-6] Extended Immunity (your immunity also applies to non-stress effects, costs as much as the immunity affected)

Unfortunately for him, he had no resistance to magic on his Hunger stress track and having a son with Maggie LeFay gave her a permanent familial sympathetic link (mother to son, son to father). So her Death Curse bound his demon, preventing him from feeding.


That level of immunity isn't common, even among Outsiders. Even HWWB4, a full Walker, doesn't have it for example. Lord Raith had probably called upon the "Lord of Slowest Terror", an Old One, to grant it to him much as he called upon him to grant use of HWWBH as an assassin.

54
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 06:05:06 PM »
@Taran:
Yes, but whether an attack is magic or not would be part of the narrative, too. Though Lore and Alertness (and any other knowledge skill) allows for declarations without spending Fate Points or actions anyway so there isn't an issue if you do it your way.

@Sanctaphrax:
1 refresh doesn't add +1 weapon rating. It adds +1 shift of power. This will be usable in anything you do with it, like maneuvers, blocks, extra power for extending effects and so on and so forth.
As for the first refresh, it is weaker than guns and far, far weaker than the other suggested version.
2 refresh make it about on par with Breath Weapon - same damage/attack, longer-ranged but no useful maneuvers yet.
5 refresh and it becomes better than guns in damage and also provides maneuvers and blocks.
9 refresh and it allows Power 7 Control 7 evocation with unlimited uses.
18 refresh and it allows Power 12 Control 12 evocation with unlimited uses, assuming Fantastic skills.


I think it balances out fairly well at all refresh levels for what it does.


PS:
After we're done with adjusting the pricing, could you add it to the custom powers list?

55
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 04:44:17 PM »
@Blk4ce:
That's a specific limitation on sorcerers. You're a sorcerer if you got that template. If you don't have that template, then you don't have the limitation that goes with it. That doesn't mean you specifically need to be a wizard to take several refinements.

Examples from the books:

1) Russel Carson, YS p 388. Neither a sorcerer nor a wizard and he has 3 refinements.
2) Kravos' Ghost, OW p 63. Sorcerer ghost, 6 refinements.
3) Tessa, OW p 166. Denarian with only Evocation, 6 refinements.
4) Rosanna, OW p 222. Denarian with only Evocation, 3 refinements. Though she should have had Hellfire, too.


@Locnil:
Sorry, doesn't work like that. The type of the attack is always based on the flavor, not the mechanics. A spirit blast is magical force and won't affect a magic-immune demon. A magically thrown boulder is physical force and will. A sword is physical force and won't affect a physically-immune demon. A blessed sword is holy and will.
Harry Dresden has exploited this in fights in half a dozen books to hurt magically-immune foes, break circles and so on and so forth. He'd be dead a half-dozen times over if it couldn't be done.

56
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 09:44:42 AM »
Untrue. Only the sorcerer template has such a limitation - the Refinement power itself doesn't. If you're a faerie sorceress with Evocation + Unseelie Magic for example, you could take enough Refinements to be able to kill Lords of the Outer Dark without being a wizard. Or if you're a warlock that simply never trained in Thaumaturgy because you didn't have any teachers, you can still take enough Refinements to outclass Harry Dresden in fire magic. And Scions, Changelings and Emissaries have no hard limits on what powers they can have beyond what their origin would allow flavor-wise.

57
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 06:18:34 AM »
Quote
RAW, the first still has to contend with Mythic Toughness/Immunity.
Nope. "Immunity" and "Toughness" to magic only stops direct stress - it doesn't even stop other magical effects on you. Why would apply to a magical effect that is not cast on you at all such as the throwing of an object, which is a might effect cast on the object in order to throw it at you? The icicle thing is the same, except it splits the power into 1 shift to make the object needed, using the rest to throw. No compel you can resist there.

Besides, immunity or no there's nothing stopping the wizard from throwing you. Humanoids only weigh rank 3 mass. A rank 8 might effect would throw your magically immune self 5 zones - skywards. Enjoy your landing; falling damage in the DFRPG is 1 stress per foot fallen. If a zone is around 10 feet minimum...


EDIT:
For the cost of at-will magic, how about this;
Innate Magic [-1]
You can cast minor spells through your own innate, inexhaustible energy for one element. You can call a single shift of power and control it with your base Discipline. All the other rules of Evocation apply, except for Refinement (but see below)
[-1] Strong Innate Magic: Increase the number of shifts you can call by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Conviction.
[-1] Focused Innate Magic: Increase your Control bonus by 1. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Discipline.
[-1] Extra Element: You get an extra Element for your Innate Magic. Focused/Strong bonuses apply to it normally. Can be taken multiple times, to the limit of your Lore.
[-1] Arcane Implement: You get 1 Refinement. It can only be used for Power foci and enchanted items. Can be taken multiple times. Rules for crafting apply to your items as normal.

58
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 19, 2014, 02:22:38 AM »
If the wizard wants a strong defense spell though, they'd need two mental boxes filled (one to cast, one to extend) and would be left with even less power in a prolonged conflict. And without being able to keep defenses up from previous scenes, they could easily fall to an ambush or someone fast enough to act first and flatten them before their defense was up.

Those possibilities is something this ability would also negate. What would it cost in Refresh to still get a defense (and a big one) in an ambush, or to always have block 12 and armor 6 and veil 12 on?

@vultur:
The Cloud Giant example is Norse Jotunn. Those guys picked fights with gods and while they usually lost, they weren't pansies. Thus the ability to move like the wind, rip off vault doors with one hand and tank hits that might sink battleships. The DnD knockoff is only marginally stronger than an elephant and will die if you hit it with enough arrows. Plus, I wanted to be able to play a half-giant with human form if a 20-refresh game ever started thus this build. A full-up Cloud Giant would have also had Greater Glamours to represent nonviolent weather control and Cloudpath - a reflavored "Wings" ability to allow him to walk on air and some more powers/stunts put into magic resistance.

59
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 18, 2014, 11:55:43 PM »
Wizard is fighting someone with Mythic Speed, Mythic Toughness, Humongous Size, Supernatural Strength, a "Large, not Slow" stunt that reduces the to-hit penalty of Size, a "Mighty Blows" stunt that enables might to modify blunt/crushing attacks, IoP giant-sized platemail with bonuses to defense and armor and a bus-sized club. That's the basic Cloud Giant package at Defense +11, physical track of OOOOOOOOO(OOOOOO) armor 5, weapon 10 attacks at accuracy +9, excellent mobility at a 20-refresh total.
This guy actually has a good chance to beat the wizard by either running him out of power before he runs out of stress if he's defense-oriented, or tanking the wizard's first couple of blows then smashing him flat if he's offense oriented. But if you give the wizard unlimited magic, he will always lose due to the wizard's stacked aspects and perpetual undodgeable attacks.


Another example is 7-8 flying Little Folk attacking the wizard with bows and stuff, or 7-8 mortal gunmen smart enough not to be all bunched up. Without unlimited magic the wizard could still win but potentially suffer some damage/consequences. With unlimited magic, the wizard simply uses his big evocation for the strongest block he can manage, then extends it with smaller doses of power every so often so it never runs out then proceeds to killinate the little guys.
Because a 12-shift block or armor 6 indefinitely extended is counterproductive to balance.

60
DFRPG / Re: An idea to allow more spell casting
« on: June 18, 2014, 08:51:33 PM »
Quote
Maybe a [-2] power for the first level, then [-1] for each subsequent level.
See breath weapon, incite emotion and variations thereof. For balance purposes, your at-will magic shouldn't cost any less than them for the same effect. And if it doesn't, why are you homebrewing instead of using existing mechanics?

Quote
Mythic Toughness against magic only with just one Refresh
When a spellcaster is putting pennies through your left eye with earth/air magic or icicles with variations of water/fire magic, your defenses against magic aren't going to help you. When a spellcaster is lobotomizing you with a pinpoint spirit attack, no amount of physical toughness is going to help.

Quote
going from spell tolerance 3 to spell tolerance 5 might actually be overpriced under that model.
Assume full caster at your EtA game level of refresh since we're talking +5 specializations;
[-3] Evocation
[-4] Soulfire
[-10] Refinement
Evo Specs: +1 control +2 tolerance for earth, +3 power +4 control +5 tolerance for spirit
Foci: +5 offensive spirit control, +5 offensive spirit power

Cost of "Tolerance" over his basic powerset: 2,5 refresh. Let's see what he can do with it;
1) Holy blasts that also degrade toughness at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will, courtesy of Soulfire.
2) Lobotomies at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. Not quite instant mental evisceration but close.
3) Thrown objects at weapon 5, accuracy +15 at will. For when you need to ignore magic immunity and don't want to lobotomize people.
3) Always-on veils of strength 5. Perma-invisibility against anyone without superb senses is fun.
4) Arbitrarily high bonuses. He makes a sticky aspect at 5 shifts with spirit magic, then uses the "extend spell" option of evocation on it so it lasts until tagged at later scenes.
5) Make any skill replacements he can justify via spirit so his minimum roll for just about anything is +5
6) Summon lesser spirits at will. Never underestimate the capability of several dozen single-refresh Little Folk to kill stuff.
7) Conjure objects at will. This one is courtesy of Soulfire.



Hey, I'd totally pay 2,5 refresh over my caster's normal costs for the above. It beats getting Breath Weapon for 2 refresh who is going to give me a Weapon 2 accuracy +6 physical ranged attack at best.

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