ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Second Aristh on September 24, 2021, 12:58:28 AM
-
Battle Ground introduces a new concept to the Dresden Files, namely actual teleportation. Before BG, there had been quick travel via Ways in the NN, but with that method practitioners still moved normally as they tunneled through the NN to emerge in a different place on Earth. The closest we have seen to teleportation before BG is perhaps Lea/Odin's lightning gate in Changes, but even then it seemed more like a compressing of the NN's nebulous nature than true teleportation.
So, how exactly does it work, and why is this the first time we've seen something so seemingly useful? With Namshiel and Drakul as the only ones seen to have done so, perhaps it takes too much skill to be widely available. Even so, it seems like it would be useful for some of the big players to keep in their back pocket as an option. Namshiel doing it through Marcone seems to point to it not taking a mountain of energy to power.
If skill really was the main issue, would the Archive be able to do it? That might have come in handy in the Shedd fight. It doesn't seem right that it would be beyond the Archive if Marcone can do it, but perhaps the hellfire circle is strong enough to block things. Or maybe it's too dangerous to try without line of sight?
Does anyone have any insights in this area?
I include some of the more relevant passages from BG.
He watched the opening exchange with the interest of a general observing children at chess, lips pursed thoughtfully. Then he took a step to the left and . . .
. . . and just freaking vanished. I don’t mean that he went behind a veil, or teleported, or opened a portal to the Nevernever. I can do those things, if I have to. This guy took a step and just up and up went away, as if stepping behind a telephone pole and never appearing on the other side. Gone. Just gone.
Except that in this case, “gone” turned out to be six inches behind me.
My ears suddenly twinged hard, like when the pressure shifts in an airplane, and the empty space behind me wasn’t empty anymore. I whirled, drawing my revolver, raising it—
—too late. Drakul caught the weapon’s barrel in the pale fingers of one hand and simply crushed it shut.
Marcone began muttering in a language I didn’t recognize and pointed a finger at the ground twenty yards away and to his left. He indicated another position to his right with his other hand, at a point equidistant from the first, said something, and there was a crackling sound in the air, like . . . broken wind chimes, maybe.
Ethniu came out of the water with the Eye already bursting forth in a tidal roar of red energy, lashing out unstoppably at Marcone.
Marcone simply stepped to his left and vanished into a chorus of broken wind chimes—reappearing at the point he’d pointed to with his left hand, clear of the beam.
Ethniu shrieked in rage, slewing the gaze of the Eye around wantonly, though the motion was slower than it should have been and seemed to take physical effort from her straining neck muscles as she swept her gaze around, searching for Marcone. She spotted him with another scream, but he simply took a second step, vanishing from the first point of the triangle he’d indicated, and appeared in the second in another shower of clinking-crystal sounds.
Holy crap. Direct point-to-point translocation was something that the White Council kept in a section called “Highly Theoretical and Dangerous Magic” in the wizard’s library at the complex in Edinburgh. I knew, because years ago when I’d asked about it, I’d been put on the no-access list for the entire section.
Which . . . well, to be fair, probably wasn’t entirely unwise.
-
Who says we've seen true teleportation? Marcone could have been messing with ways, he had to prep the spots he could move to, jimmying the ways perhaps? And Drakul's was very much super speed. River Shoulders proved that when he intercepted him iirc.
I'd argue the closest to teleportation we've seen is actually Mab. Besides when she's done it in reality, she did it when inducting Harry as winter night, in an in-between place that at the least isn't earth, and at best definitely takes the place of the NN of where ever it is. So her doing it there, has little choice but to be the real deal? 🤔 Would that make it more of a reality warp than anything?
-
Hmm maybe super hyper speed for Drakul. I overlooked the "or teleported" part of the quote. River Shoulders did some sort of bigfoot tidal wave spell that blocked Drakul from vanishing like he did the first time he tried to smash him. Even so, if it was super speed instead of teleporting, shouldn't he have been fast enough to dodge Harry's second force blast that saved River Shoulders from being sacrificed for zombies? Is Drakul moving faster than he can perceive the rest of the world?
Marcone does specifically prep the places he can whack-a-mole away to. Maybe it is based in Ways magic, but Harry usually remarks on portals opening, and Ways have to be closed behind you, which takes effort unless you wait for it to happen naturally (which takes longer the wider the rip in reality).
Also, as a side note that just occurred to me, the clinking chimes noise gets remarked upon more than once here. I wonder if that could have any relationship with Hell's Bells. I kind of doubt that Hell's Bells are any more theoretical than the Outer Gate, and they are coming from a knight of Hell.
-
Didn't ghost-Harry teleport in Ghost Story?
Edit: yeah, sort of teleportation, but he compares it to the teleportation potion from Storm Front, in the sense that he broke into pieces and then reformed elsewhere.
So I guess it depends on your definition of true teleportation. Nightcrawler is a teleporter, but he travels into a different dimension to reappear elsewhere, if I recall. Sandman Slim can teleport in a sense using a key to move through shadows.
So what's really true teleportation?
-
True. Good point with GS. It didn't register with me since ghosts play by different rules, usually.
I suppose true teleportation should be defined as traveling between two distinct points without traversing a path between. A discontinuity in location to put it in calculus terms. We've seen slow-motion Nightcrawler-style transportation via the NN, and ghost/motion potion seem like high speed dissolution and movement before reconstituting.
Perhaps Marcone was Nightcrawler-style, just faster, but it isn't clear.
-
Stopping time would have that effect. Maeve does something similar in Proven Guilty just at a different scale.
The tinkling for Marcone sounds straight out of Star Trek.
-
Stopping time would have that effect. Maeve does something similar in Proven Guilty just at a different scale.
The tinkling for Marcone sounds straight out of Star Trek.
Time travel takes a lot of raw power that Marcone doesn't seem to have (e.g. he uses lots of weak shields against Ethniu). I suppose time stoppage could be easier somewhat, but having enough juice might be an issue.
-
Is Drakul moving faster than he can perceive the rest of the world?
I'd think so actually. We've already seen that effect once in GS when Daniel could prep his reactions and Aristides couldn't compensate. I think Drakul might have an upper limit to his perception that's lower than his max speed. (Thinking of Fullmetal alchemist Brotherhood here)
As for the definition of teleportation.. that's a difficult subject eh? If we go by the above true teleportation should be defined as traveling between two distinct points without traversing a path between.
then it would require a literal wormhole effect of place to place displacement. What Marcone did might qualify... I wonder, if someone was prepped and waiting if he could be intercepted doing it? If not, I'd give it to him. Even if he uses another dimension to do so, it might still fall under the definition. Kind of a personal effect of the same technique Vadderung used in CH to create the gateway.
Ghost teleportation makes me think of star trek, in that they're broken down and reformed elsewhere.. though I note, they call that a transporter not a teleporter..
*Can you "stop time" outside of the NN?
-
Time travel takes a lot of raw power that Marcone doesn't seem to have (e.g. he uses lots of weak shields against Ethniu). I suppose time stoppage could be easier somewhat, but having enough juice might be an issue.
I was thinking about Drakul.
-
I was thinking about Drakul.
Ah, I misunderstood. Yeah, possibly. For something like that, I wonder if or what he used to compensate. Kringle launched the Wild Hunt through time off himself, pushing himself backwards in time in the process. Kinda like Newton's third law but through time. I think that was part of him being coy in his conversation at Mac's; he was in the past from his perspective and had ideas about what was going to happen.
-
Harry called it translocation. I'm thinking that it may seem synonymous with teleportation, but I don't think it is. Harry said he wouldn't touch it for like 40 or 50 years. This gives you an idea of where Marcone is vs Dresden. I think what Drakul was doing was an even higher level of magic as he didn't seem to need to set points to translocate to the way Marcone did.
Could the Archive do it? Hmm I'm not sure. Eb who is one of the best wizards in the world has yet to display it when he could have. It could be something that's not worth doing unless there is no other choice.
-
Ooooh, Marcone couldn't have been using the NN, Ferro was locking all the entrances in Chicago..
-
Ooooh, Marcone couldn't have been using the NN, Ferro was locking all the entrances in Chicago..
Ah, nice catch. It's good evidence that Marcone was truly teleporting.
As far as other alternatives, we don't get any updates on Ferro's condition during BG. I would imagine he was struggling as much as any of the other big players. If so, towards the end he might have been tired enough to let Marcone-sized critters slip through.
-
Ooooh, Marcone couldn't have been using the NN, Ferro was locking all the entrances in Chicago..
If I recall, Ferro was shutting down the earth, and Vadderung was shutting down everything above it. And at the time of Marcone's magic, Vadderung was laying on the ground half dead. So who knows if he was still shutting things down.
-
Different types of teleportation? Different risks? This is a banned knowledge in the White Council and may be for a number of reasons.
1. It is lethal
2. It is difficult
3. It breaks one or more the laws of magic.
Classically teleportation actually invokes the destruction of the test subject and their reification in another place, essentially death and rebirth, a classic breach of the Fifth Law, meaning it’s both points 1 and 2. This may only have been realised some time AFTER it became known, leading to it’s proscription, after the formulation of the Laws. Point 2 was relevant at that point it probably required a powerful practioner, could end badly, be blocked easily by counterspells etc. The knowledge would have been lost at the practitioner level over time relegated to the library. Drakul must really have been annoyed that River Shoulders was an opponent old enough to know countermeasures. Same with Namshiel, he was old enough to know countermeasures to the countermeasures and it must have required considerable focus by him and Marcone to avoid it going badly against the Titan.
-
Different types of teleportation? Different risks? This is a banned knowledge in the White Council and may be for a number of reasons.
1. It is lethal
2. It is difficult
3. It breaks one or more the laws of magic.
Classically teleportation actually invokes the destruction of the test subject and their reification in another place, essentially death and rebirth, a classic breach of the Fifth Law, meaning it’s both points 1 and 2. This may only have been realised some time AFTER it became known, leading to it’s proscription, after the formulation of the Laws. Point 2 was relevant at that point it probably required a powerful practioner, could end badly, be blocked easily by counterspells etc. The knowledge would have been lost at the practitioner level over time relegated to the library. Drakul must really have been annoyed that River Shoulders was an opponent old enough to know countermeasures. Same with Namshiel, he was old enough to know countermeasures to the countermeasures and it must have required considerable focus by him and Marcone to avoid it going badly against the Titan.
Harry made the escape potion in SF that was half speed, half teleportation. He didn't seem concerned about it being illegal. Or at least not that I recall.
I won't speculate on danger or difficulty, because Bob is beyond average wisdom and would negate a lot of concern there. But I'll point out that the phrasing Harry uses, "Is this the super speed one, or the teleportation one?", seems to imply that he's done both before.
I agree that most proposed methods of teleportation seem to skirt a law being broken. But only for sticklers like Morgan looking for an excuse.
Personally I like the idea of folding reality between two points to move between them. Like Harry describes Drakul as disappearing like behind a telephone pole. Just warping reality so that two non-congruent points are touching via magic, but without a visible doorway or portal.
I don't think that's what Drakul did, unless River's counter managed to unwarp reality. And Marcone's technique seemed to involve the hand pointing at the destination, which is more like movement than warping. Like he's physically representing his intention to "stop there".
-
If I recall, Ferro was shutting down the earth, and Vadderung was shutting down everything above it. And at the time of Marcone's magic, Vadderung was laying on the ground half dead. So who knows if he was still shutting things down.
I was under the impression that the svartalves were guarding the earth and Ferro was guarding the NN entrances. I'll check the books, though.
I felt my eyes widen. The barrier between the mortal world and the world of spirit was all that separated humanity from demons and devils and nightmarish creatures of literally every description. “Is it thin enough for anything to get through?”
“If it’s not,” Bob said ominously, “it will be. Right now, Ferrovax is holding that door closed. It’s enormously inefficient to do it from the Nevernever side. He won’t be able to keep it up forever without coming to this side, in his true form, and that would basically rip reality’s nuts off.”
“How long?” I asked. “Can he hold them out until dawn?”
“No one’s seen a confrontation this big for thousands of years, Harry,” Bob said, and his tone was outright worried. “The laws of magic change over time. I don’t know the answer to your question. I don’t think anyone else knows, either.”
“My contribution to the defenses must be subtle,” Ferrovax said. “To do otherwise would be to risk destroying more of the city than I save.” He nodded thoughtfully. “With Etri’s counsel and consent, I will close the underworld to them, prevent them from moving through or beneath the earth. One-Eye?”
Vadderung nodded slowly, evidently tracking Ferrovax’s line of thought. “I will close all the Ways to them within the city itself. Given who they are, that will leave them only one viable avenue of approach.”
It seems like there may be a continuity error there with who got what job. Or possibly Ferro took on more as Odin took to the field directly. It's not clear.
-
Harry made the escape potion in SF that was half speed, half teleportation. He didn't seem concerned about it being illegal. Or at least not that I recall.
I won't speculate on danger or difficulty, because Bob is beyond average wisdom and would negate a lot of concern there. But I'll point out that the phrasing Harry uses, "Is this the super speed one, or the teleportation one?", seems to imply that he's done both before.
I agree that most proposed methods of teleportation seem to skirt a law being broken. But only for sticklers like Morgan looking for an excuse.
Personally I like the idea of folding reality between two points to move between them. Like Harry describes Drakul as disappearing like behind a telephone pole. Just warping reality so that two non-congruent points are touching via magic, but without a visible doorway or portal.
I don't think that's what Drakul did, unless River's counter managed to unwarp reality. And Marcone's technique seemed to involve the hand pointing at the destination, which is more like movement than warping. Like he's physically representing his intention to "stop there".
For River Shoulders, I could see his aura wave grounding out whatever theoretical reality warping Drakul was attempting. That's kinda the sasquatch thing anyway.
-
For River Shoulders, I could see his aura wave grounding out whatever theoretical reality warping Drakul was attempting. That's kinda the sasquatch thing anyway.
Re-reading the fight scene, particularly Drakul stepping away from Rivers as he charges, and where he appears above Rivers as Harry hits him with power, his movement is more like flashstep from Bleach. Which is just high speed that's so fast it can't be seen. Faster than Aristedes could manage.
-
Teleportation may be risky and you could wind up in a wall or the earth even if you got the skill. Let's say a 1 percent failure rate for extremely skilled practitioner and a 20 percent failure rate for some one who can do it but lacks experience. Unless it is an emergency why risk dying?
-
Remember The Fly. Maybe Namshiel was clearing the space when he pointed at each spot.
-
Remember The Fly. Maybe Namshiel was clearing the space when he pointed at each spot.
The original? Or the latest version of it.. I think the original was my favorite, in fact it was a love story with a very sad ending... "Helllllp me... Heelp meee...!" So sad, be sure to check your system before you send your atoms though the air.. :-\
-
I think The Archive knows more than Eb, she knows everything written. So she knows the Council archives too. Plus Eb is not a fine hand. But maybe it requires a great deal of power, power she did not have access to in the Shedd within a circle, whereas power was in the air at the battle. Then again, she takes the train to Chicago....
-
Maybe she likes the train, she could have flown.
-
I think The Archive knows more than Eb, she knows everything written. So she knows the Council archives too. Plus Eb is not a fine hand. But maybe it requires a great deal of power, power she did not have access to in the Shedd within a circle, whereas power was in the air at the battle. Then again, she takes the train to Chicago....
The Archive has plenty of control and power. Besides, Marcone pulling it off makes it seem like it doesn't take a ton of power, just a ton of control that Namshiel can handle on his end. Marcone uses a series of weak shields against Ethniu instead of fewer strong shields like Harry might try.
At the moment, I'm thinking that true teleportation is very distance limited. You extend personal power to your desired location, then you can pop over using whatever complex and easy to screw up spellwork required. That way, the hellfire circle would prevent escape since the Archive couldn't extend power through it (i.e. can't get outside the circle). It was good enough that escaping to the NN wasn't an option for the Archive either.
-
Unless it is more like a transporter as in Star Trek, but that is using a device.
-
To a certain extent we are discussing semantics. I think Marcone was doing "translocation" and not teleportation because he needed to have the two points he was traveling to in his line of sight when he began.
As to why it is dangerous? It could be simply super dangerous if you lack the knowledge and skill of a Fallen Angel. I doubt that it breaks any Laws of Magic(tm) inherently. The closest would seem to be the time law, but what paradox results?
Drakul seemed to be simply faster than Harry or the others could perceive. Aristedes was fast, but not so fast you couldn't see him, but instead faster than you could really react to (as a normal human).
-
Drakul seemed to be simply faster than Harry or the others could perceive. Aristedes was fast, but not so fast you couldn't see him, but instead faster than you could really react to (as a normal human).
If Drakul was simply faster, how was River Shoulders able to shut down his ability to appear in different places? If Drakul could actually move faster that one could see, why didn't he simply beat them all down more quickly than they could react?