Anyone remember or have a link to the post analysing the DF novel by novel as following the pattern of Tarot cards ? That seems an interesting comparison to this.
Didn't Jim dismiss that one as coincidence?
Jim may still use the Hero's Journey template, but I think that if you have a "big apocalyptic trilogy" coming, the series will build, not resolve. I think the last couple of books are more likely to build towards a major event that will set the stage for the trilogy. Just my two cents.
Also, would love to hear your theory on Jotunheim being Arctis Tor, though I personally think Jotunheim is more than a fortress, which is all Arctis Tor is. Jotunheim is an entire mountainous realm of winter and fjords.
Any theories on Muspelheim? I do wonder if Harry might discover something in a realm of fire and darkness, which in some interpretations recently has been a substitute for Chaos.
Anyone remember or have a link to the post analysing the DF novel by novel as following the pattern of Tarot cards ? That seems an interesting comparison to this.
Mirror Mirror is the time travel book
Is there going to be a book featuring dragons?
Yeah, but not that's going to happen until he gets around to breaking the Law about time-travel.
Not sure if this is a compliment or not.
The divide between the Faerie Courts coincided with the Fae assuming the defense of the Outer Gates, and also with the decline of paganism in Scandinavia. Previously, the Jotun had guarded the Outer Gates, and the Aesir had protected Midgard from the Jotun. However, with the decline of pagan worship, Odin, the Normans' chief god struck a deal with the Fairy Queens1, the Celts' chief goddesses, to ensure the defense of Reality.
Per Bob, Hecate was originally a Hag who achieved divinity through a bloody ascension rite.2 Mythologically, she's one of those weird pre-Olympian mystery goddesses infesting Greco-Roman paganism. The tri-part goddess statues in Hades' Vault3 lead us to conclude that the three Fairy Queen mantles are, together, Hecate in her triple goddess form (Mother, Maiden, Crone). Given the confusion in the real world over whether Hecate is the Crone or the trinity, I'd say it's fair to assume that she is both. At some point after her ascension, she spun off her power into the three mantles, and kept the Crone mantle for herself.
It is currently unknown to whom Hecate the Crone gave the other two mantles to, and I know I've shed pixels trying to pick Olympian divinities who could take the mantles. This makes no sense, however, as the Olympians have their own divinity, and would not need to accept more power from Hecate the Crone. Given the connection apparent between Hecate and the Fae, we must look elsewhere in Europe.
they are the Celtic pantheon, but Christianity sapped their power, spinning them into heroes with supernatural powers instead of gods. I speculate that the Crone Hecate found her Mother and Maiden within this pantheon of not-quite divine figures. By binding the Mother, Maiden, Crone to the existing Tuatha De Danann, the Fairy Court arose from the Mantle-wearers and their followers.
1066 is where this all comes together. The Norse Normans invade Celtic England even as Norse paganism is on the decline, and Christianity on the rise, in Scandinavia. The decline of paganism is a problem for the Aesir, as they aren't worshiped as much as in the past, and are losing power. This is not a problem for the Jotun, as they aren't worshiped as such in the first place. The invasion of England is a problem for the Fairy Court, as the people who tell their stories are getting slaughtered.
So Odin, chief god of the Normans, and the Fairy Queens, representatives of the English, meet to discuss terms. This is a blending of the various sources for British fantasy, the Norse, Celtic, and Greco-Roman religions. The end result is that the Jotun are banished (to team up with the Fomor), the Normans take England, and the Fairy Court splits to assume the defense of the Outer Gates. Hecate the Crone assumes the Mother Winter role. And she loses her walking stick.
Mab and Titania
My gut says that Mab was the Maiden at the time of the split. Then, during the split, the Crone Hecate became Mother Winter, The Maiden Mab promoted herself to Winter Queen, and the Mother became Summer Queen. For symmetry, Mab's twin sister, Titania, became the Summer Lady (where Mab started). When Mother Summer abdicated (I'm still going to guess this was Baba Yaga), the Summer Queen became Mother Summer, and Titania became Summer Queen.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGkCI99u-h4
At the 9:46 mark.
I think your conclusion may be false with Hecate. Yes, the triple-goddess statue in Hades vault COULD be Hecate, but I don't think that's the whole tale. Harry identifies the statues as the Lady, the Queen and the Mother of Summer and Winter respectively. And he's met them! Now we know they have other names/identities. I think Hannah Ascher either identified them incorrectly OR she was only partially right.
Also, why would suddenly Hecate, a pre-Olympian Greek Goddess (a Titan in some versions) go to the Faeries of Ireland and Britain? She hasn't been linked to them afaik outside of something like the Sandman. It seems really odd, the connection between the Fae and the Olympians in the Dresdenverse. I suspect we don't have the full puzzle.
Though mind you, Hecate's power would be drained as well, she wasn't really being worshiped too heavily around that time. She might have kept getting more power, or found alternative sources to belief. I also find it interesting that Hades is still quite powerful, even without belief. That being said, Hades did say he no longer has the power to influence destiny or something to that effect.
Now I don't get on board with Hecate becoming Mother Winter and all that. WOJ actually says the Mother Winter is Baba Yaga...
I also think no one has considered that the Mantles predate the Courts of Faerie. I think that they are REQUIRED for whichever pantheon is holding the Outer Gates, in order to keep the Outsiders Out. Seems like they are tied into every mythological pantheon, everyone has their oen names for them. Norse call them Norns, Greeks call them Fates (Moirai), Baba Yaga in Russian, Hecate pre-Greek etc. Probably Jim could link them everywhere if he chose too.
Wow, long post. Did not intend it to be this massive...woops! Sorry to rip on your arguments, I am mostly just stirring the pot and seeing what happens. I really did enjoy the theories though, they have been some of the most compelling I've seen here on the forums. :)
Citation, please? I'm honestly curious, because it makes more sense that Baba Yaga is a name for Mother Winter and yet I'm straining trying to peg the original beings behind the retired Mother Summer and the current Mother Summer.
Well, the Romans brought Olympianism to the isles, was my guess.
Serack has a wonderful grand unifying theory about mantles and power. The gist of what's relevant to this theory is that the more power one has, the more spiritual gravity one has, and the more the material world bends and breaks around you. The idea is that Hecate found herself with too much power, and spun it off into a trinity to have someone who can operate in the material world (the maiden), someone who can operate in the spiritual world (the crone), and someone who can straddle both worlds (the mother).
Citation, please? I'm honestly curious, because it makes more sense that Baba Yaga is a name for Mother Winter and yet I'm straining trying to peg the original beings behind the retired Mother Summer and the current Mother Summer.
Sounds like you're on my crazier Magna Mater theory. Which... no... could it be that Hecate is just another name, another aspect, and further down the rabbit hole lies the Mother Goddess Herself (whom Joseph Campbell cheekily calls Our Lady of Mammoths)?
Oh, no worries here. Peer review helps develop my theories into something truly crazy.
Crone, the (Pan-Celtic) One aspect of the Triple Goddess. She represents old age or death, Winter, the end of all things, the waning moon, post-menstrual phases of women's lives, all destruction that precedes regeneration through her cauldron of rebirth. Crows and other black creatures are sacred to her. Dogs often accompanied her and guarded the gates of her after-world, helping her receive the dead. In Celtic myth, the gatekeeper-dog was named Dormarth (Death's Door). The Irish Celts maintained that true curses could be cast with the aid of a dog. Therefore, they used the word cainte (dog) for a satiric Bard with the magic power to speak curses that came true.
Yes I just read his theory. It is quite excellent, I think he's really onto something there, especially in relation to the Amber Chronicles stuff. I don't know if I agree about Hecate spinning off her power though, even if she was clever enough to get it. While I think it fits the theory (having some with real Power, some that can do both and some that do the almost-mortal thing) I just don't get why she would spin her power away. Could you quote/explain the part of Serack's GUCMT that examines that? I couldn't really find it. Also, what Serack said about the Baba Yaga quote. I can't find the link, but it's around if you search for it.
The question, at least for me, is whether or not Hecate still exists in some form of higher awareness, or if Hecate ceased to exist in order to bring the six queens about.
My guess is that Hecate was too powerful to interact with the world. She decided to divide herself into three aspects: one that was still to powerful to truly interact with the world, in order to retain as much power as possible; a second that was a balance between the real world and the never-world; and a third that was particularly weak, in the great scale of things, that can interact abundantly with the real world.
Traditional beliefs dictate that Hecate was One, and then she became the Triple goddess. Perhaps she became three, and then those three further divided as she took on more Power due to her expanded roles. She then became two of each, for a total of six.
But in my interpretation, that initial being, Hecate, is no more. The Queens can be collectively referred to as Hecate, and they may serve the roles that she served, but I don't think she can be reconstituted. I think that's the price she payed for more interaction with the real world.
Others, like Hades, never broke apart their power, so they cannot act upon the real world. They are the original Aeon spawn, given shape and purpose by faith and belief. I think the compromise is that Hades, as a shapeless and nameless Aeon, already bore characteristics and traits that he has now, but faith and belief gave him the shape and name he has. Whether he recalls a time before he was what he is, or whether he truly existed before that, is hard to argue.
I swear, a while back, there was a WoJ that Uriel might not be an archangel that has existed from the dawn of time; instead, he might be a being that believes he is.
That would play into the faith/belief aspect of shaping Aeons. Uriel might be an upper-level Aeon that hasn't divided, or spawned, but he didn't have a Uriel personality or purpose until after humanity thought of him.
I understand the desire to try and keep the theory focused on the Fae, rather than other houses and pantheons, because it gets all jumbled. How could Uriel only be 2,000 years old, and remember everything that happened before as if he were there? It would be as if an Aeon existed that entire time, but wasn't shaped until after Christianity gave him shape.
@Griff
I really like how you discussed how Phenomenal Cosmic Powers (my term, PCP... oooh, I like that acronym) splinter their power to address mortal issues more directly in a tiered approach. It follows closely on my own ideas on how things could be working according to this theorizing, but from a slightly different tack that works well.
Excellent points about the dilution of power. I think part of my future comments in Reply #3 will include references to the Vadderung comments in Changes that support this.
I am dubious about the concept that the dilution is irreversible though. It was said in CD that the beings that run around on All Hallow's Eve can snatch power from each other, which to me implies that there are mechanisms for consolidation of power after distribution.
Also, I think it is likely that the PCPs are so powerful that the "Aeons" are really only representative of a disproportionately small piece of their power, and that in a way, although the original being may be effected by having that power distributed, in another way, because that power is out there effecting things, the power itself is no less significant. I point to the Blackstaff as a poignant example of this type of thing at work. Some aspects of Mother Winter (Who in some ways is the same being as Mother Summer, hence my saying some aspects, also I am sure that when she is wearing different hats, she gets to follow different rules much like Vadderung) are more restricted by the lack of her "walking stick" but at the same time, her power is out there ripping life out of people and stuff and doing all kinds of interesting things that we only have a limited perspective on, all because it is being wielded by a Mortal with Free Will.
I swear, a while back, there was a WoJ that Uriel might not be an archangel that has existed from the dawn of time; instead, he might be a being that believes he is.
So here is a question, is there any Arab or Islamic mythology that would fit his role?
Citation, please? I'm honestly curious, because it makes more sense that Baba Yaga is a name for Mother Winter and yet I'm straining trying to peg the original beings behind the retired Mother Summer and the current Mother Summer.
So, if someone whacks the being that is, for all intents and purposes, Baba Yaga, and then Mab succeeds, then Mab becomes the new Baba Yaga, and Molly gets drawn up to Mab, and they have to find someone else to become the new Lady.
Mirror Mirror is the time travel book
But I posit that Our Harry will either take the slow path or the unstuck path to fix the timeline between Grave Peril and Mirror Mirror.I agree, and have posited there you are and set the wayback machine as being pointers to FM/GP.
They used a very particular girl not just any innocent. Lydia.
And, she had Casandra's Tears so even she could receive warnings about the future.
To give one hint.
There are two "There You Are" in Grave Peril both at the time of Bianca's masquerade.
One is when Harry tells Bianca 'there you are.'
The other is when Thomas tells Harry 'there you are.'
I find it perfectly possible that the other side cheated during this book, by using time travel.
And, Harry later is sent back to balance the equation. And part of his trip into the past is already written in previous book. It just needs to be expanded upon.
Also, there is one WAYBACK MACHINE in SG that wasn't used. It was also primed to go back to FM/GP.
One other tidbit that I will offer as evidence of a return to FM/GP.
We know that a choice Harry makes in GP is pivotal to events that occur in Mirror Mirror. Perhaps our Harry will realize the significance of that choice and choose to correct it, within that reality. Though he would have to do so in an indirect manner. But, it would still have him traveling back in time to events then.
I have fully laid out my theory by now and linked to it.
But I posit that Our Harry will either take the slow path or the unstuck path to fix the timeline between Grave Peril and Mirror Mirror. This would be the speed chess portion of the plot.