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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on February 17, 2021, 01:57:03 AM
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He Who Walks Behind is the right hand of the Lord of slowest terror. I'm guessing that the relationship is similar to the Queen's and Mothers. That being said, do you think we will learn more about LoST? Have any theories?
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He Who Walks Behind is the right hand of the Lord of slowest terror. I'm guessing that the relationship is similar to the Queen's and Mothers. That being said, do you think we will learn more about LoST? Have any theories?
He's in an awkward spot story-wise since HWWB is on par with Uriel and he's presumably even tougher so that really limits story options with him.
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He's in an awkward spot story-wise since HWWB is on par with Uriel and he's presumably even tougher so that really limits story options with him.
Wait where is that stated about being on par with Uriel? I know Dresden said Before was more real than Mab. Like a statue while she was a copy or something like that. I don't recall anywhere that a Walker is on par with an Archangel. Not even close. They may be unkillable but from what has been displayed so far? Uriel could destroy the galaxy with a thought.... Before got it's ass beat vs Demonreach and a bullet enfused with Soulfire sent It running. Not to mention Dresden beat it's ass for a few seconds at Mac's..... I don't see Dresden touching Uriel for even a moment. I think Harry could throw everything at Uriel and it wouldn't so much as make him blink.
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Wait where is that stated about being on par with Uriel? I know Dresden said Before was more real than Mab. Like a statue while she was a copy or something like that. I don't recall anywhere that a Walker is on par with an Archangel. Not even close. They may be unkillable but from what has been displayed so far? Uriel could destroy the galaxy with a thought.... Before got it's ass beat vs Demonreach and a bullet enfused with Soulfire sent It running. Not to mention Dresden beat it's ass for a few seconds at Mac's..... I don't see Dresden touching Uriel for even a moment. I think Harry could throw everything at Uriel and it wouldn't so much as make him blink.
It came directly from Jim a while back. Since Cold Days I think. He said He Who Walks Behind is operating on the same level as Uriel but has very weird limits so can only use his full power within those. Not all that unlike Uriel either. I don't know if he was talking about Before and Beside...but the Walkers apparently are the same. As for what happened to Before - it's the vessel that was destroyed, not the being. Uriel doesn't seem to need or use a physical body. Probably why he doesn't show up their much. In fact the only time we have seen him have one was when he transubstantiated.
As for the Lord of Slowest Terror, in theory that puts him on TWG level. But maybe not practically as he doesn't appear to be running the show nor has he broken into reality (or at least not fully). Perhaps it's a matter of how much power he can bring in one space. The ocean is big but only some of it can fit in a river, maybe it takes time to over run things. The Outsiders have referred to themselves (and Harry has compared them to) the tide and the ocean.
Harry might not be able to touch Uriel normally, but we know now that the Eye of Balor could kill Uriel. Which means Uriel would have to defend himself or evade etc. Assuming he somehow didn't know the attack was coming in the first place. Uriel also, like any other immortal, can be killed on Halloween. So Harry's chance of killing Uriel isn't nothing with the right preparation. Choose the right ground, the right time, the right weapons etc.
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Wait where is that stated about being on par with Uriel? I know Dresden said Before was more real than Mab. Like a statue while she was a copy or something like that. I don't recall anywhere that a Walker is on par with an Archangel. Not even close. They may be unkillable but from what has been displayed so far? Uriel could destroy the galaxy with a thought.... Before got it's ass beat vs Demonreach and a bullet enfused with Soulfire sent It running. Not to mention Dresden beat it's ass for a few seconds at Mac's..... I don't see Dresden touching Uriel for even a moment. I think Harry could throw everything at Uriel and it wouldn't so much as make him blink.
2018 AMA.
7) HHWB, being a Walker, is an outsider on a power level similar to Uriel. He can do all KINDS of stuff. But also has a lot of weird limits as to when and where he can use his power.
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/8ntzo3/my_name_is_jim_butcher_and_i_write_stories_ask_me/dzyl9ey/
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He's in an awkward spot story-wise since HWWB is on par with Uriel and he's presumably even tougher so that really limits story options with him.
well, uriel's boss is TWG, so hhwbhs boss would be on par with that?🤔
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Not on par with Uriel...forget that nonsense...could be more or less as old? He Could be the bad guys version/par of a Archangel of bad? Somebody's going to have to reword or we theorize being on par in power
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If he has more limits placed upon him than an archangel, the question then becomes, "why?" After
all I thought the other side rebelled because they didn't want a whole lot of limits placed upon them.
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well, uriel's boss is TWG, so hhwbhs boss would be on par with that?🤔
Which is rather awkward since Harry can't really matter much at that scale.
Not on par with Uriel...forget that nonsense...could be more or less as old? He Could be the bad guys version/par of a Archangel of bad? Somebody's going to have to reword or we theorize being on par in power
Well the quote explicitly says "on a power level similar to Uriel", not really talking about age.
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I wonder if we should wait a bit to decide.. Yeah, WOJ, but was it a thought out answer or something
off the top of his head when asked? I want to see the evidence for it on the written page.. So far the Outsider Knights we've seen are powerful and scary, true, but none of them appear to match an archangel, who also has his own restrictions, not even close. Or is that all a matter of perception?
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Harry might not be able to touch Uriel normally, but we know now that the Eye of Balor could kill Uriel. Which means Uriel would have to defend himself or evade etc. Assuming he somehow didn't know the attack was coming in the first place. Uriel also, like any other immortal, can be killed on Halloween. So Harry's chance of killing Uriel isn't nothing with the right preparation. Choose the right ground, the right time, the right weapons etc.
I don't believe this to be correct. There is no reason to believe Uriel can be killed on Halloween. Just as Bob said that Walkers are unkillable, so is Uriel. He's not even here when he's talking to Harry. He's projecting a tiny peice of himself. Not only that but Halloween is about changing masks, which is why things like Mab can be killed. Uriel isn't a mask to be exchanged but a celestial being. Finally, the eye wouldn't even kill Mab. It would kill the mortal wearing the mask, Mab would move on to Molly which is why Mab told Harry to kill her if she died. Uriel is pure soul, there is no mortal beneath it to kill.
Not all Immortals are created equal.
WoJ:
Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters
Jim: 1) A being like Uriel doesn’t really do battle in the sense of contested violence. He just sort of thinks about annihilating galaxies and it happens.
Perfect example of Mab's power vs Uriel... Not even in the same galaxy when it comes to power. Not even remotely close. Mab's power are global, Uriel's powers are on a universal scale.
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I don't believe this to be correct. There is no reason to believe Uriel can be killed on Halloween. Just as Bob said that Walkers are unkillable, so is Uriel. He's not even here when he's talking to Harry. He's projecting a tiny peice of himself. Not only that but Halloween is about changing masks, which is why things like Mab can be killed. Uriel isn't a mask to be exchanged but a celestial being. Finally, the eye wouldn't even kill Mab. It would kill the mortal wearing the mask, Mab would move on to Molly which is why Mab told Harry to kill her if she died. Uriel is pure soul, there is no mortal beneath it to kill.
Not all Immortals are created equal.
Never heard that archangels can be killed on Halloween. Is there a WOJ to that effect?
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Never heard that archangels can be killed on Halloween. Is there a WOJ to that effect?
None that I can find.
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Never heard that archangels can be killed on Halloween. Is there a WOJ to that effect?
Skin Game suggests the grace is some sort of mantle. In changes Harry and Uriel discuss the circle Harry used to call up Uriel. Gods and angels seem to know each other and sometimes interact socially. It is likely that angels also in other ways function similar to other gods.
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Skin Game suggests the grace is some sort of mantle. In changes Harry and Uriel discuss the circle Harry used to call up Uriel. Gods and angels seem to know each other and sometimes interact socially. It is likely that angels also in other ways function similar to other gods.
Na.. Uriel said that if Michael misused his Grace that Uriel would fall. Not Michael as Uriel, but Uriel. It's not the same as a Mantle.
Mantle's are sources of power obtained by mortals. Celestial Being's are something different.
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Na.. Uriel said that if Michael misused his Grace that Uriel would fall. Not Michael as Uriel, but Uriel. It's not the same as a Mantle.
Mantle's are sources of power obtained by mortals. Celestial Being's are something different.
That can be interpreted in several ways.
And even so something different does not mean in all things different. The grace can be transferred and Uriel could have been killed without the grace. Both are also in the text.
And then maybe Michael would have ended up as Uriel or Uriel’s boss would have given the grace to someone else or ......
It has just not been made clear.
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Na.. Uriel said that if Michael misused his Grace that Uriel would fall. Not Michael as Uriel, but Uriel. It's not the same as a Mantle.
Mantle's are sources of power obtained by mortals. Celestial Being's are something different.
agreed, also I believe there are limits to the power that a mantle can give the holder, no matter how great. In the case of an archangel's grace, I don't think there are any limits to it save the constraints that the Boss has put on him. In other words because there is no limit to the actual power, the free will to act is taken away, so no archangel can use his grace on his own. So it was a huge risk giving his grace to Michael, because Michael has free will and could do anything with it. Because he put his trust in Michael and handed it over to him, Uriel became responsible, so he'd fall if Michael screwed up with it, not Michael, a mere mortal with free will.
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That can be interpreted in several ways.
And even so something different does not mean in all things different. The grace can be transferred and Uriel could have been killed without the grace. Both are also in the text.
And then maybe Michael would have ended up as Uriel or Uriel’s boss would have given the grace to someone else or ......
It has just not been made clear.
That's true, things are not clear. My opinion is that Uriel's Grace cannot be forcebly taken or destroyed. What happened with Michael is Uriel making a Choice. He chose to grant Michael that power, and accepted the risks that choice could create.
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That's true, things are not clear. My opinion is that Uriel's Grace cannot be forcebly taken or destroyed. What happened with Michael is Uriel making a Choice. He chose to grant Michael that power, and accepted the risks that choice could create.
No,I think what Uriel did was like giving a kid a ak-47 and trust that he would be responsible enough to only shoot tin cans with it..
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That's true, things are not clear. My opinion is that Uriel's Grace cannot be forcebly taken or destroyed. What happened with Michael is Uriel making a Choice. He chose to grant Michael that power, and accepted the risks that choice could create.
But what would have happened if Uriel was killed while Michael had his grace?
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But what would have happened if Uriel was killed while Michael had his grace?
Like I said... He took a risk. I think it was kind of like Odin giving up Immortality to help humanity. Not the same but similar. I'm guessing either the Grace would go back to TWG, or maybe Michael could choose if he'd take it up or not. I really don't know
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That can be interpreted in several ways.
And even so something different does not mean in all things different. The grace can be transferred and Uriel could have been killed without the grace. Both are also in the text.
And then maybe Michael would have ended up as Uriel or Uriel’s boss would have given the grace to someone else or ......
It has just not been made clear.
In Skin Game Uriel becomes a mortal and gets to trade places with Michael, what would have happened if he died? What would happen to his power?
If Uriel had died /somebody/ was going to be holding his grace, well it looks like you've got the job. And that would just be confusing because then there would be two Michaels that are archangels. "Michael the warrior and Michael the carpenter" "Carpenter, you mean like Jesus?" "No not the same guy". So it's probably a good thing it worked out the way it did.
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Like I said... He took a risk. I think it was kind of like Odin giving up Immortality to help humanity. Not the same but similar. I'm guessing either the Grace would go back to TWG, or maybe Michael could choose if he'd take it up or not. I really don't know
I think it would go back to the Lord.. Michael wouldn't consider keeping the Grace for himself, actually I doubt that he could. As for Uriel, his mortal body would be killed, but angels are all soul so he return to the Almighty, get his Grace back, no harm, no foul.. Only if Michael misused the Grace would any real harm come to Uriel, in my opinion.
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I think the White God and his Archangels keep those forces within reality capable of destroying reality in check, allowing reality to develop through free will, this includes gods and rogue Archangels.
He permits beings in the mortal world at the Queens power level (the mothers are too powerful), some gods (like Odin) can continue in a reduced form, other like Hades can’t really leave the NeverNever. Ferrovax is only permitted to manifest in a human form.
The Titan upon breaking this compact was dealt with by three of the White Gods champions and taken off the board.
The Outsiders are not part of this compact, but to deal with them directly the White God would have to break the compact, freeing up the gods and rogue Archangels to intervene in the mortal world again, breaking it. It is not then an issue of relative strength between Uriel and HWWB, it is a question of not fighting a war on two fronts, which mankind would be unlikely to survive. This is why Uriel is limited, he can only work indirectly through the White God’s champions, the Knights and the recipients of Soulfire like Harry. He can destroy galaxies but to do so would invite the destruction of mankind.
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I wonder if we should wait a bit to decide.. Yeah, WOJ, but was it a thought out answer or something
off the top of his head when asked? I want to see the evidence for it on the written page.. So far the Outsider Knights we've seen are powerful and scary, true, but none of them appear to match an archangel, who also has his own restrictions, not even close. Or is that all a matter of perception?
Well, from a certain point of view, a kitten is scarier than an archangel, but not more powerful.
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Well, from a certain point of view, a kitten is scarier than an archangel, but not more powerful.
Depends how you look at it. The kitten can scratch you, the angel is not allowed to do so. If you define power as the ability to actually do things that kitten is way more powerful.
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Depends how you look at it. The kitten can scratch you, the angel is not allowed to do so. If you define power as the ability to actually do things that kitten is way more powerful.
Yes, and the scratch could get infected, which could result in a lot of unpleasant things including death.
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Well, from a certain point of view, a kitten is scarier than an archangel, but not more powerful.
True but Walkers are also limited by rules. Can only do certain things. My guess is these rules are enforced.... By someone... I mean the rules were put in place, so who enforces them? Either TWG Himself, or his Angles. If they are capable of enforcing such rules it means they are on a high level of power.
Also remember that a Starborn can hurt an Outsider... Well if a little wizard can do that I'd imagine that someone like Uriel could do a lot worse than hurt them.
Either that or TWG and the Lord of Slowest Terror are on even footing, and they know that if they go against the other it's basically a stalemate. So they have some sort of understanding
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True but Walkers are also limited by rules. Can only do certain things. My guess is these rules are enforced.... By someone... I mean the rules were put in place, so who enforces them? Either TWG Himself, or his Angles. If they are capable of enforcing such rules it means they are on a high level of power.
Also remember that a Starborn can hurt an Outsider... Well if a little wizard can do that I'd imagine that someone like Uriel could do a lot worse than hurt them.
Either that or TWG and the Lord of Slowest Terror are on even footing, and they know that if they go against the other it's basically a stalemate. So they have some sort of understanding
That is one option. The other one is that is just the way thinks work because creation was made that way. Because reality functions like that. When the outsiders come here they have to adapt to this reality to a certain extend.
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True but Walkers are also limited by rules. Can only do certain things. My guess is these rules are enforced.... By someone... I mean the rules were put in place, so who enforces them? Either TWG Himself, or his Angles. If they are capable of enforcing such rules it means they are on a high level of power.
Also remember that a Starborn can hurt an Outsider... Well if a little wizard can do that I'd imagine that someone like Uriel could do a lot worse than hurt them.
Either that or TWG and the Lord of Slowest Terror are on even footing, and they know that if they go against the other it's basically a stalemate. So they have some sort of understanding
I was thinking of it more as limits than rules.
Like, HWWB has enough power to project itself into the world into however many realities, and be powerful in all. But if it tried to squeeze its full power into one reality, it'd have to crack the Outer Gates to fit. No breaking of the Outer Gates, no fit.
In that sense, then, the angels have to only be powerful enough to keep HWWB from breaking the gates directly - they don't have to be vastly stronger to enforce 'rules' on it. And most likely they are doing that in all realities at the same time, so if HWWB tries to break into this reality, then Uriel can wield all his power at the Outer Gates of this reality, too; no need to actively maintain the other ones (they'll hold up for a while if HWWB isn't there to crack them).
Now of course, Uriel can never wield his full power INSIDE one reality either, so whatever HWWB squeezes through the cracks has to be countered in other ways, rather than Uriel just smiting it.