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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: MacShidhe on January 27, 2011, 11:08:20 AM
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We ran into a situation where the White Court Virgin had the opportunity to kill a goblin using her emotional vampire power. I would like to hear everyone's opinions. Would she have become a full vampire if she had done that or does it only happen if she kills a human?
Sam
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We ran into a situation where the White Court Virgin had the opportunity to kill a goblin using her emotional vampire power. I would like to hear everyone's opinions. Would she have become a full vampire if she had done that or does it only happen if she kills a human?
Sam
I would guess it only counts if a human is killed.
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I would say if she kills, she changes. To me it wouldn't be about what you kill, it would be about the act of taking life for food.
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If you feed that beast it is let loose. If the goblin qualifies as food then that's all that matters. Personally, I'd say it does (otherwise the hunger couldn't eat it) but that's probably something your group should agree on.
As an aside, I have problem with WC virgins.
The Black Court breed like undead rabbits. It literally takes only minutes to go from "Alive and well and wonder who just walked in the room" to "dead" to "Yes my master I live again for you".
The Red Court takes longer - usually (Susan didn't take that long) - but they can still rebuild their numbers in a short time.
The White Court can't build its number quickly. 18 - 19 years after you decide you need to have a new WCV around you've got this teenager and for some reason you don't make sure that nature takes its course? You don't hire a hooker and send it to your son's room as a birthday present? You don't pick out your daughter's first lover (making sure that the first time will be everything you need it to be) and ensure that it's hormones, not love, when she has her first meal?
What, you aren't a die hard schemer? Then how do you stay alive in the White Court?
In the one book where we met a White Court virgin she is central to some of her father's schemes, to the point where he turns his back on a wizard to check on her when it looks like she might be in trouble. My reading of that book was that the only reason she was still a virgin is because of that Death Curse, that her father wanted to break that curse before she transformed so he could be her second "lover" and break her (the way he had broken his other daughters).
Meanwhile, there's the echo of a hunger in the back of the White Court virgin's mind. Sometimes he/she zones and almost feeds without making a conscious decision to. Then's human nature to consider - we are drawn to emotions. Whether it's teen drive for sex or the need to comfort a scared person (these two can combine at scary movies) there's the instinct to reach out to other people. An instinct that can unleash the demon inside of a White Court virgin.
Which is a long way of saying that I can't see there being many more White Court virgins than there are knights of the cross. Maybe a few more, maybe less.
Richard
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I hate to compare the two, but if a Wizard killed said Goblin with magic would you award an instance of Lawbreaker? Whilst not a great or entirely accurate comparison, both have a fair amount to deal with a characters inner-self, & both can bite you in the ass even if you didn't intend to kill with your power.
Personally, for a Goblin I would say it doesn't count. They are monsters, beings of nature. They lack the human capacity of free-will, which makes human desires oh-so-more, well, more. My own (admittedly completely unfounded) opinion is that it should apply to killing a mortal or semi-mortal, not a monster. But then, I have no real evidence to back my opinion, and I can easily see merit to the opposite opinion.
Nice post Richard, some interesting things you've brought up.
At the end of the day MacShidhe, go with what works best for your group.
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Meanwhile, there's the echo of a hunger in the back of the White Court virgin's mind. Sometimes he/she zones and almost feeds without making a conscious decision to. Then's human nature to consider - we are drawn to emotions. Whether it's teen drive for sex or the need to comfort a scared person (these two can combine at scary movies) there's the instinct to reach out to other people. An instinct that can unleash the demon inside of a White Court virgin.
Which is a long way of saying that I can't see there being many more White Court virgins than there are knights of the cross. Maybe a few more, maybe less.
This may be true of the Raith family, however it's debatable whether scaring or depressing others is human nature. I would think that there are probably a lot more Skavis or Malvora virgins about.
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I'd say that depends on their "refresh" value. Even you haven't given a specific value to this villain, he has one. If its negative, then no he/she is in the clear. If positive, like for one of your main baddies, then I'd say yes. But that's just me.
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This may be true of the Raith family, however it's debatable whether scaring or depressing others is human nature. I would think that there are probably a lot more Skavis or Malvora virgins about.
I'd also note that going by the books it doesn't seem like a demon starts off very active. A White Court Virgin seems to have a less aggressive demon...and the game rules back this up by NOT giving them a hunger track. I'd also say that the demon doesn't start out there...seems to show up in force well after puberty going by White Night. Add to this that they don't respond well to positive emotions like love, and it is fairly easy to see how they can exist. Emotions like love are a strong part of the human condition too, but they aren't something that can be fed on.
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I'd say that the WC virgin does become a WC vampire but due to the circumstances of the first kill, the vampire cannot be compelled to feed on humans unless he has voluntarily done so. So he could be compelled to feed on other monsters but not humans.
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I'd go with the feeding on humans as well... you don't see much of the White Court making a habit of farming monsters, they prey on Average Joe and Everyday Ellen, there's something about humans that fulfill some dietary requirement.
Stands to reason that is what they'd have to snack on to activate their Wonder Vampire Powers.
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I don't know. That seems to be a Really Big Loophole. I can easily see someone go around and just feed on non humans then and they would never have to worry about turning full WCV. If you don't want the character to turn when feeding on non humans, then you should make it so they can't feed off of non-humans, or at least not get any benefit from it. If they get full benefit they get full consequences. Thematically speaking that seems appropriate. I remember on occasion Harry saying "What go around comes around" (or am I just making that up?).
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I'd tend to favor that if you feed, and it satisfies your hunger, then it qualifies as that 'first kill'.
(Now I have an image of two white court vampires in a fae bar arguing "Tastes Great!" "Less Filling!")
The reason not to farm monsters is simple predator logic. Monsters can fight back; it's riskier. Injured predators become prey. There's also the Accords to think of; letting your clan Feed on members of another faction is probably a violation.
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I think there is the matter of the soul fae don't have souls so tecnically killing them is something entirely different from killing a person, I think it is the destruction of the soul rather than the draining of life energy that turns a white as if feeding by itself could turn them then they would all be vamps so feeding on a monster to death should not make you a vampire as it only eating more life energy than usual rather than utterly de-humanising the character.
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I think there is the matter of the soul fae don't have souls so tecnically killing them is something entirely different from killing a person, I think it is the destruction of the soul rather than the draining of life energy that turns a white as if feeding by itself could turn them then they would all be vamps so feeding on a monster to death should not make you a vampire as it only eating more life energy than usual rather than utterly de-humanising the character.
I agree. Not that going around killing fae is a good thing, but you can kill fae tons of ways and not get any game mechanic laid upon you (that includes killing them with magic and not getting Lawbreaker). One could say the game is bigoted in this regard...and they'd be right. As a game mechanic it isn't that bad though, since humans are weak, pasty things, so such mechanics are the only thing giving them much significance for players (as far as game mechanics go).
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If I remember correct soul gaze only works on creatures with souls and it dosen't work on Demons unless (unless they are linked to a person), Straight Fae and other assorted Nasties. So If she kills anything with a soul its murder if she dosen't she is merely causing its existence to sesate.
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If I remember correct soul gaze only works on creatures with souls and it dosen't work on Demons unless (unless they are linked to a person), Straight Fae and other assorted Nasties. So If she kills anything with a soul its murder if she dosen't she is merely causing its existence to sesate.
But if that's the case then it wouldn't draw her hunger either...
Then again, Jim Butcher has said that it would be possible (very unlikely, but possible) for a White Court Vampire to eat Mab (and thus gain Mab's powers).
Richard
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The Hunger would probably not be happy that its owner tried to feed it non food as in non human.
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Then again, Jim Butcher has said that it would be possible (very unlikely, but possible) for a White Court Vampire to eat Mab (and thus gain Mab's powers).
Thank you, I think that may answer my question quite well. (Insert Evil GM Laugh) Where can I find the interview where he said that?
Sam
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Then again, Jim Butcher has said that it would be possible (very unlikely, but possible) for a White Court Vampire to eat Mab (and thus gain Mab's powers).
Richard
Thank you, I think that may answer my question quite well. (Insert Evil GM Laugh) Where can I find the interview where he said that?
Found it! Re: DF: Harry and Lea « Reply #22 on: March 04, 2009, 03:43:14 PM » (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11012.msg462610.html#msg462610)
I may be splitting hairs here but I think that eating Mab would result in her title and power transferring to the nearest available fey, if not unseelie fey, which would mean that the severely weekend White Court would have to start all over again. Having to attack a fresh, if inexperienced, Winter Queen. The good news for my group is, that wouldn't happen with a goblin because the lesser fey's powers don't jump to the nearest fey at the moment of death. That being said, I think their more desired result of an attack on the Winter Queen would be a Mab who could be controlled with the statement, "Do 'x' and I will give you a temporary release from the fear/lust/misery that you're feeling right now."
But to bring that back to the original topic, according to Mr Butcher it sounds like white court vampires can eat fey. Now, if I apply the principle of "You are what you eat" to the situation which originally brought up the question, I believe the answer for my group is that the White Court Virgin would become a White Court Vampire with some of the temporary aspects of a goblin (both good and bad). The more goblins she ate, the more goblin like she would become.
Thank you very much. This discussion has been very helpful.
Sam