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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: peregrine on February 01, 2018, 02:11:52 AM
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Once again, let's talk Grey Council Members. Who do you think is on it, likely to be on it, or might be on it? So far the confirmed members are Harry, Eb, and Odin. Jim has said that we've met 6 others who are as yet not confirmed. This poll is solely for the Mortals, so wizards and vanilla only. No fae, no demons, no shapeshifters or whatnot. They will be coming later.
I will probably be missing several strong candidates, so feel free to chime in with other options.
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I always run into a wall on the question of "Who is doing the Recruiting?" McCoy has less contacts and more grudges, but if he's taking cues from Vadderung there are more options.
I see LTW and Liberty being on there, not Rashid (Harry trusts him a lot more than McCoy seems to). Luccio yes being McCoy's successor as Capt of the Wardens, but not Steed or Ramirez. And really none of the other known mortals around, McCoy doesnt really have any specific need of them or reason to trust them.
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Well, Liberty is known for having lots of intel gathering ability; maybe through a network of contacts?
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I vote for "Cowl". Technically he's someone we met. ;)
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Well, Liberty is known for having lots of intel gathering ability; maybe through a network of contacts?
Yup, that, specifically. She's got all kinds of contacts in the mortal world and the NN.
What kind of magic does Martha Liberty specialize in?
Thaumaturgy, specifically information-gathering. She’s got legions of contacts in the Nevernever and the mortal world alike.
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I voted for Martha and Luccio.
LTW wasn't there, he was (supposedly) sick in Edinburgh. If it weren't for that, I'd include him too.
I don't think Langtry would be willing to take Eb's leadership, so he's out.
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LTW wasn't there, he was (supposedly) sick in Edinburgh. If it weren't for that, I'd include him too.
Good Point. Only thing I can think is the possibility that Injun Joe learned what the stakes were (ie McCoy's likely Death via Curse) and pulled something out of a bunghole that let him take the field (maybe a SC version of the Bear Belt-buckle, for example). It was the kind of Day for cashing in Favors; Eb did with that army, maybe LTW did something too.
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Good Point. Only thing I can think is the possibility that Injun Joe learned what the stakes were (ie McCoy's likely Death via Curse) and pulled something out of a bunghole that let him take the field (maybe a SC version of the Bear Belt-buckle, for example). It was the kind of Day for cashing in Favors; Eb did with that army, maybe LTW did something too.
Could be. Also it could have been bad intelligence on Harry's part. Shell game by Steed/Luccio.
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Could be. Also it could have been bad intelligence on Harry's part. Shell game by Steed/Luccio.
I thought that at first too, but the LTW intel came from McCoy right after he found out he had a granddaughter and had changed his tune to encouraging Harry. I dont think there would have been any need for subterfuge by then, especially given they used Magic Stones rather than interceptable letters.
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Unless McCoy had bad intelligence too.
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Unless McCoy had bad intelligence too.
If an SC member, and the Blackstaff to boot, were THAT misinformed about a major crisis at the Council HQ, we have MUCH bigger problems than anyone guessed.
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If an SC member, and the Blackstaff to boot, were THAT misinformed about a major crisis at the Council HQ, we have MUCH bigger problems than anyone guessed.
Sounds like a Harry situation to me.
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Sounds like a Harry situation to me.
Heh, well yes I suppose it does fall into the "worst possible outcomes" category, which make it likely all on it's own.
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AND, it's possible that Peabody wasn't alone, working for the Rampires. He just go caught. Bad information can still be given and honestly received.
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Listening to the end of Turn Coat now, and I'm convinced that Eb knows and likes Ramirez. While it's not conclusive, we know that Ramirez suspects a Black Council as well (from Dead Beat). So I could see Eb choosing him for the Grey Council as well.
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I don't see Ramirez as being old enough to join. I think that Eb would choose wizards who have been around the block and are not as susceptible to temptation/mind bending.
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I don't see Ramirez as being old enough to join. I think that Eb would choose wizards who have been around the block and are not as susceptible to temptation/mind bending.
I can see that. Though He has (had to) grown up a LOT since becoming a Warden. And since we haven't met that many wizards, and given Jim's statement, I wouldn't be surprised if Ramirez was on the GC.
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I don't see Ramirez as being old enough to join. I think that Eb would choose wizards who have been around the block and are not as susceptible to temptation/mind bending.
The flip side is that when given evidence of Actual mind-bending in TC, it was Ramirez that Eb chose to execute the Search of Peabody's rooms. Given the high-profile nature of the case, that speaks to a lot of trust.
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The flip side is that when given evidence of Actual mind-bending in TC, it was Ramirez that Eb chose to execute the Search of Peabody's rooms. Given the high-profile nature of the case, that speaks to a lot of trust.
One factor might have been Ramirez being relatively new to position and therefore not deemed significant to Peabody's plans.
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One factor might have been Ramirez being relatively new to position and therefore not deemed significant to Peabody's plans.
Fair point, though given the whole Age Prevents Mental Tampering bit it might have made more tactical sense to approach one of his friends in the Old Guard wardens, or hell even LTW.
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I would like to think that Langtry would know of the GC's existence but is not a member, merely a condoning (as long as they stay in the shadows) ally.
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I would like to think that Langtry would know of the GC's existence but is not a member, merely a condoning (as long as they stay in the shadows) ally.
I counter that by saying Id like to think that The Blackstaff would be capable of keeping the secret, and unless he is very intentionally lying to Harry, then he created the GC specifically because he was not getting the Merlin's support the way he thought he should. I just dont see either of them going the GC route if they were working together on it; there'd be nothing stopping Eb from simply establishing his own group of Wardens like I assume the Brute Squad was for Simon.
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I counter that by saying Id like to think that The Blackstaff would be capable of keeping the secret, and unless he is very intentionally lying to Harry, then he created the GC specifically because he was not getting the Merlin's support the way he thought he should. I just dont see either of them going the GC route if they were working together on it; there'd be nothing stopping Eb from simply establishing his own group of Wardens like I assume the Brute Squad was for Simon.
First, I agree if the Blackstaff wants to keep a secret, he will most likely be able to do that. Including from the Merlin. I think the Merlin knows because he isn't dumb. (don't get to be leader ... bottlecaps, so on and so forth) Merlin is at the head of a powerful Magical organization, who granted is short staffed, but is still a major power in the world. He should have the intellect and knowledge to see what is going on.
I think there is a difference between supporting something and acting on it as the Head of a Major Power. Take in to account the scene in the Worry Room in Changes between the Merlin and Harry. They all think the peace is a joke, but have to put on the airs of trying. Same thing could be said of this. Merlin needs to put on airs officially that there is no BC, hence there is no need for a GC to combat them.
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hmm can someone explain how the merlin could be on it?
It was very clear that secrecy was of extreme importance because they could be labeled as the black council etc etc
merlin controls a few council votes Ebenezer has a few allies and between them they would have an easy majority of the senior council and could do whatever they hell they want.
In wars they make groups of solders for covert ops all the time. That wouldn't be controversial at all to effectively be replacing the brute squad that got killed.
If more than 3 senior council members joined or merlin was involved it would seem delta force type secrecy and not high treason secrecy which is what the book clearly indicates to me.
i don't think merlin is dark because there were a few times when he could have easily destroyed the council or let them be killed off.
I think hes old and set in his ways and Ebeneezer thinks his ways will lead to defeat.
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First, I agree if the Blackstaff wants to keep a secret, he will most likely be able to do that. Including from the Merlin. I think the Merlin knows because he isn't dumb. (don't get to be leader ... bottlecaps, so on and so forth) Merlin is at the head of a powerful Magical organization, who granted is short staffed, but is still a major power in the world. He should have the intellect and knowledge to see what is going on.
Your saying that McCoy /could hide it from Langtry but has chosen not to?
I think there is a difference between supporting something and acting on it as the Head of a Major Power. Take in to account the scene in the Worry Room in Changes between the Merlin and Harry. They all think the peace is a joke, but have to put on the airs of trying. Same thing could be said of this. Merlin needs to put on airs officially that there is no BC, hence there is no need for a GC to combat them.
That's the thing though, as the merlin he could accomplish all the same things without the MASSIVE liability that the GC poses should it become known (as outlined by Harry and Em at its founding). An Officially sanctioned but still very Secret task force or Wardens could accomplish exactly the same thing with no political fallout if they are revealed. The only reason they have to take the Risk with the GC is if they are being forced to because they cannot operate within the WC, which would be superior in all ways.
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Your saying that McCoy /could hide it from Langtry but has chosen not to?
No not at all, What I am saying is that Langtry knows it exists out there, but does not know specifics. So yes McCoy is able to hide that he is apart of it as well as hide who the members are. If Harry and Carlos as junior wizards with limited intel have been able to figure out the existence of a BC, then it stands to reason, that the Merlin has as well (even though he denies it). I assume from there that Langtry has also been able to deduce that there is another entity combating this BC in an attempt to foil their plans.
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That's the thing though, as the merlin he could accomplish all the same things without the MASSIVE liability that the GC poses should it become known (as outlined by Harry and Em at its founding). An Officially sanctioned but still very Secret task force or Wardens could accomplish exactly the same thing with no political fallout if they are revealed. The only reason they have to take the Risk with the GC is if they are being forced to because they cannot operate within the WC, which would be superior in all ways.
The WC still has the accords to worry about as well as political implications. If a wizard was seen killing a Wamp or Fae who was associated with the BC it would spell trouble for the WC.
Also, Even a very secret task force would still be bound to observe the code and conduct of the WC. As far as I know only McCoy as the Blackstaff has the official sanction to do as he wishes. Any other wizards on this GC would be limited by those rules and would be ineffective against fighting an enemy who is matched in power, but will do anything to win.
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No not at all, What I am saying is that Langtry knows it exists out there, but does not know specifics. So yes McCoy is able to hide that he is apart of it as well as hide who the members are. If Harry and Carlos as junior wizards with limited intel have been able to figure out the existence of a BC, then it stands to reason, that the Merlin has as well (even though he denies it). I assume from there that Langtry has also been able to deduce that there is another entity combating this BC in an attempt to foil their plans.
Wait, so you think that Langrty thinks the Black Council and the Grey Council are the same thing?
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Wait, so you think that Langrty thinks the Black Council and the Grey Council are the same thing?
No I think he sees two groups fighting one against the another. I think he has seen proof of the existence of a Original Group (the BC) and recent developments have hinted to an existence of a Second Group (GC) that is actively trying to combat the Original Group.
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No I think he sees two groups fighting one against the another. I think he has seen proof of the existence of a Original Group (the BC) and recent developments have hinted to an existence of a Second Group (GC) that is actively trying to combat the Original Group.
Ah, ok. I dont really think so (at least not from what Ive seen so far) because I dont think he would at all tolerate the GC for the danger it's very existence poses to the WC
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Ah, ok. I dont really think so (at least not from what Ive seen so far) because I dont think he would at all tolerate the GC for the danger it's very existence poses to the WC
If he doesn't know who is on it how does he know it poses a threat to the WC? I am just saying That he sees two powers out there moving against one another, both of the groups have Magic Wielders, not necessarily WC Wizards. Also neither group has really made an assault on WC.
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If he doesn't know who is on it how does he know it poses a threat to the WC? I am just saying That he sees two powers out there moving against one another, both of the groups have Magic Wielders, not necessarily WC Wizards. Also neither group has really made an assault on WC.
Because according to Harry and McCoy it's very existence is a threat to the WC, either as a scapegoat for all the BC activity or simply as proof that the WC is not actually (and cannot realistically be ) the end-all/Be-all Authority on Mortal Magic that they claim. Keep in mind that the BC is in the same boat, which Langrty has decided is too dangerous to even admit it exists. The existence of the Grey Council is in itself a big threat to the WC, but that is only the case because it is not officially sanctioned. If it were official and just secret (like the Blackstaff position, for example) it would not pose that danger; it onl;y becomes needed because Langtry is insisting on the policy of Denial:
“In denying the existence of one conspiracy, Langtry has necessitated another.”
“And got himself a twofer with a side order of irony,” I said. “If the Black Council finds out about us, they’re going to jump for joy. They’ll expose us, call us the Black Council, and go on their merry way.”
“ ‘Us’ already, is it?” His eyes gleamed as he nodded. “And given what we’ll be doing, if the White Council finds out, they’re going to call it sedition. They’ll execute us.”
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Because according to Harry and McCoy it's very existence is a threat to the WC, either as a scapegoat for all the BC activity or simply as proof that the WC is not actually (and cannot realistically be ) the end-all/Be-all Authority on Mortal Magic that they claim. Keep in mind that the BC is in the same boat, which Langrty has decided is too dangerous to even admit it exists. The existence of the Grey Council is in itself a big threat to the WC, but that is only the case because it is not officially sanctioned. If it were official and just secret (like the Blackstaff position, for example) it would not pose that danger; it onl;y becomes needed because Langtry is insisting on the policy of Denial:
I agree to all that and as you stated Langtry is insisting on the policy of Denial. My argument was that he guesses/is fairly certain about the existence of these two groups but has no more factual information other than their existence and combative nature.
I think it would be easy enough for the WC to deny until they are forced in to action against one side or the other. Both Groups are trying to be secretive why not let them be secretive until one is forced in to the open.
I also think that the one argument that you mention about being the supreme authority of mortal magic holds the most weight. That one brings Wizard pride in to it and the WC would lose face if it had a secret organization running around with in it.