ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Elegast on December 19, 2012, 05:58:19 AM
-
She, most definitely, is dead. Of course, now that she holds The Word of Kemmerler, she can probably improve her color and smell a bit. Mavra is Morgana le Fay *gasp*.
It seems to me that she wanted to "outlive" the original Merlin for some reason. So she permitted herself to be taken by a Black Court Master. Now, she intends to use the premier "Journal of Necromantic Medicine" to return to her live self. In the interim, she has been spending her time tearing down all that Merlin might hold dear:
1. She attempted to secure Excalibur by trading with her own Athame. Thwarted by Harry.
2. She used the Red Court as a cat's paw to start a war with Merlin's White Council (hoping to destroy it). Again, thwarted by Harry.
3. She attempted to use Outsiders/ sorcerers/ and thralls to destroy Demonreach, because it is one of Merlin's most exquisite accomplishments. Once again, thwarted by Harry.
In Blood Rites, Mavra shows up and stupidly attacks Harry, Thomas and Mouse for no reason with no result. The purpose was to let Harry know she's in town, and a challenge to hunt her down. She doesn't come out and play herself, because the whole basis of her visiting Chicago was to lead him by the nose to her lair. Assume he would bring allies, and compromise those allies with photos. Murphy worked out perfectly for leverage to secure Kemmerler's Word. She needs it to...well...come back to life.
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Of course, Merlin anticipated this and is sleeping deep down in Demonreach well waiting. Not one to go in his sleep, indeed. Can we read your journals now, Ebenezer? :o
Truly, I think you can find direct and indirect connections to Mavra/ Morgana le Fay in every single book in the series so far.
-
Cool theory. One nit to pick--I dont think Mavra attacked Harry and Thomas for no reason. I think she was gunning for *Thomas*. During the first attack Harry hadnt even been officially hired. Then at the party, when she learns of the attack, Justine says something like, 'I thought you didnt have to worry about Mavra'. Then, during the attack outside the movie studio, the MavraPuppet talks about Thomas as 'the one who betrayed us.' I think your idea she was out to get Harry here is incorrect, but its really a side note to a really interesting theory. And I keep finding a bunch of Round Table references lately as I'm rereading the books...its kinda funny, if you're right, that Morgana/Mavra traded her own knife to the Leanansidhe/Lady of the Lake. Didnt excalibur come from her? So they swapped their own weapons?
-
Ooooooohhh I like that theory.
I mean we know Mavra is Wizard Level with Magic and Morgana obviously was pretty gifted with the Dark Arts. She also has a burning hatred of Michael's sword and was trying to unmake it. I always wondered why she wanted the Word of Kemmler and your theory certainly seems plausible. But there is one thing that is bothering me. It seems Cowl is in cahoots with the Outsiders, but if Mavra is Morgana and gave the Athame to Leanansidhe to start the Infection of Nemesis, Why would both Mavra and Cowl be looking for the Word of Kemmler? Would that serve as them crossing purposes?
-
Mavra is powerfull as a wizard but not the near merlin kind of power I expect from Morgana le fay.
Mavra is also not celtic but eastern eastern european. In her time there probably were no black court vampires in Brittain. Modern transport and communications changed a lot.
-
I don't like it as:
I don't like X=Y, except Cowl=Simon .
There's no strong evidence.
Marva is too weak to be a 1000+ years old Merlin's apprentice.
That being said, there is a connection between the Black Court and the Outsiders, according to a quote in White Night.
-
Everyone assumes Mavra is a weak witch. But she is Council material, and we've yet to see a her throw a real punch. I like this theory, it would tie into the Athurian legend nicely as well.
-
There is no good reason to think that Mavra has shown anywhere close to her true levels of power and skill.
-
im a very big Mavra cheerleader around here.. but i dont think shes strong enought to be Mab's mysterious long lost sister. Mavra's not even an elder, most likely. From what Eb implied, she's the Black Court's 007, not a boss.
-
Cool theory. One nit to pick--I dont think Mavra attacked Harry and Thomas for no reason. I think she was gunning for *Thomas*. During the first attack Harry hadnt even been officially hired. Then at the party, when she learns of the attack, Justine says something like, 'I thought you didnt have to worry about Mavra'. Then, during the attack outside the movie studio, the MavraPuppet talks about Thomas as 'the one who betrayed us.' I think your idea she was out to get Harry here is incorrect, but its really a side note to a really interesting theory. And I keep finding a bunch of Round Table references lately as I'm rereading the books...its kinda funny, if you're right, that Morgana/Mavra traded her own knife to the Leanansidhe/Lady of the Lake. Didnt excalibur come from her? So they swapped their own weapons?
The Leanansidhe isn't the Lady of the Lake, she's a muse. She inspires poets and artists and the like in return for love and devotion and then they go mad. Or die. Probably both.
-
The Leanansidhe isn't the Lady of the Lake, she's a muse. She inspires poets and artists and the like in return for love and devotion and then they go mad. Or die. Probably both.
mmm the leanansidhe may very well be the lady of the lake, its one of her old names. :)
in the real world, its because legends and stories tend to change. in the Jim verse, its probably a mantle thing.
-
mmm the leanansidhe may very well be the lady of the lake, its one of her old names. :)
in the real world, its because legends and stories tend to change. in the Jim verse, its probably a mantle thing.
Where does it say that? Is it a WoJ? Because I don't remember anything in the books concerning Lea's other names.
-
im a very big Mavra cheerleader around here.. but i dont think shes strong enought to be Mab's mysterious long lost sister. Mavra's not even an elder, most likely. From what Eb implied, she's the Black Court's 007, not a boss.
I think operating a wizard while you're dead is probably kind of a hinderance. The most obvious example of this would be the Darkhallow. The strength of the recipient gains more and more power by absorbing (or eating) the power of others. It results in the human residents within a five mile radius having their life pulled right out of them into the recipient as well. It seems to me that there is a definite relationship between life and magical power.
I'd counter that the fact that Mavra can perform any magic at all (including flawless veils, multiple thralls, mind communication, and dazzling illusions) suggest that Mavra was a real powerhouse before she was turned to the Black Court.
On a side note, her pageboy Hamlet hair reflects about 500 AD. Which was supposed to be about the time of the Pendragons.
-
mmm the leanansidhe may very well be the lady of the lake, its one of her old names. :)
in the real world, its because legends and stories tend to change. in the Jim verse, its probably a mantle thing.
harry goes to summon lea from a lake in DB but mab shows instead.. in a very avalon sorta way. yea one of them is the lake lady... also one of them is the lock ness monster too lol :o
-
On a side note, her pageboy Hamlet hair reflects about 500 AD. Which was supposed to be about the time of the Pendragons.
According to wikipedia, the pageboy style was popular in the 60s.
-
According to wikipedia, the pageboy style was popular in the 60s.
Check out the Hairstyles of the Romanticism Era (about 900 AD) which would be about the time Morgana would have come of age as a wizard.
...the ordinary citizens had their hair in page-boy style, short or chin-length.
http://library.thinkquest.org/26829/3-styles_e.htm
-
Cool theory. One nit to pick--I dont think Mavra attacked Harry and Thomas for no reason. I think she was gunning for *Thomas*. During the first attack Harry hadnt even been officially hired. Then at the party, when she learns of the attack, Justine says something like, 'I thought you didnt have to worry about Mavra'. Then, during the attack outside the movie studio, the MavraPuppet talks about Thomas as 'the one who betrayed us.'
I had been thinking of all that as Mavra having a beef with the White Court in general over the Stokerlypse rather than Thomas in particular, and doesn't Mavra, during that attack, characterise Thomas, Lara and Inari all by their relationships to Lord Raith, suggesting he's the one she sees as her actual target ?
-
I had been thinking of all that as Mavra having a beef with the White Court in general over the Stokerlypse rather than Thomas in particular, and doesn't Mavra, during that attack, characterise Thomas, Lara and Inari all by their relationships to Lord Raith, suggesting he's the one she sees as her actual target ?
That was my impression, too. And the fact that Lord Raith sent Thomas to Bianca's in Grave Peril (with the hopes of his demise) and keeping himself safe (due to his affliction ala Maggie Sr) seems to back that up...since Mavra was a guest of that party.
-
Check out the Hairstyles of the Romanticism Era (about 900 AD) which would be about the time Morgana would have come of age as a wizard.
http://library.thinkquest.org/26829/3-styles_e.htm
I think roman is more likely. Arthur is more late roman than Middle Ages.
-
Where does it say that? Is it a WoJ? Because I don't remember anything in the books concerning Lea's other names.
its in the mythology. ;D
Jim Butcher- only modern fantasy author that requires homework lol ;D
-
I think operating a wizard while you're dead is probably kind of a hinderance. The most obvious example of this would be the Darkhallow. The strength of the recipient gains more and more power by absorbing (or eating) the power of others. It results in the human residents within a five mile radius having their life pulled right out of them into the recipient as well. It seems to me that there is a definite relationship between life and magical power.
suggest that Mavra was a real powerhouse before she was turned to the Black Court.
.
Raises a good point, becuse others have reported that jim said that white court wizards are weaker then mortal wizards and the Black court is the most magical of the three major courts, while im still inclined to belive that the black court might be inherently more effective at magic then mortals, however harry does doubt that kemmler techniques would apply to mavra so assuming hes correct if this was her specialty in life it makes sense she would have been weakend upon being turned.
-
Raises a good point, becuse others have reported that jim said that white court wizards are weaker then mortal wizards and the Black court is the most magical of the three major courts, while im still inclined to belive that the black court might be inherently more effective at magic then mortals, however harry does doubt that kemmler techniques would apply to mavra so assuming hes correct if this was her specialty in life it makes sense she would have been weakend upon being turned.
Oh noes, im a black court elder and im low on gas ?? what do i do?
(slurp, slurp)
ahhhh refreshing...
im not sure if the black court are 'flying bricks' or 'liches' or both, but either way, they are formidable.
-
Oh noes, im a black court elder and im low on gas ?? what do i do?
(slurp, slurp)
ahhhh refreshing...
im not sure if the black court are 'flying bricks' or 'liches' or both, but either way, they are formidable.
Indeed. (prays to jim they dont all go the way of the reds)
-
Epic theory. Thanks elegast for pulling it out to make a seperate thread, and thanks again GPJD for being epic :)
I wish curators could clone someone's post to pull it out for a different topic. (something I'd like to do for transcript transplants too)
-
its in the mythology. ;D
Jim Butcher- only modern fantasy author that requires homework lol ;D
I have been unable to find any source that links the Leanansidhe to the lady of the lake.
-
I have been unable to find any source that links the Leanansidhe to the lady of the lake.
Ill have to dig.. its not something I ran into myself, there was a thread by another poster a while back that went into all the various myths about the leanasidhe. ;D
-
I don't like it as:
I don't like X=Y, except Cowl=Simon .
There's no strong evidence.
Marva is too weak to be a 1000+ years old Merlin's apprentice.
That being said, there is a connection between the Black Court and the Outsiders, according to a quote in White Night.
I actually have WN right now. Could you give a page number or a quote?
-
I have been unable to find any source that links the Leanansidhe to the lady of the lake.
Oh...man...don't ruin my fantasy!!! I've always thought The Leanansidhe to be the Tenth Goddess of Muse...otherwise known as Sappho of Lesbos . Just kidding. The other nine were hags compared to her, though. :P
-
I actually have WN right now. Could you give a page number or a quote?
its near the end, when harry is in the cave, talking to lash .. she emntions the connection between his mother and the black court.
-
its near the end, when harry is in the cave, talking to lash .. she emntions the connection between his mother and the black court.
I see it. It really seems like a typo though since we haven't seen any connections between the BC and Maggie in the books while we have seen a few possible connections between the black council and Maggie.
-
I see it. It really seems like a typo though since we haven't seen any connections between the BC and Maggie in the books while we have seen a few possible connections between the black council and Maggie.
WOJ it's not a typo.
-
WOJ it's not a typo.
Can you point me to where that WoJ is? I'd like to hear it/read it for myself (it's not that I don't trust you guys, it's just that people can make mistakes. I know I have :P).
-
Can you point me to where that WoJ is? I'd like to hear it/read it for myself (it's not that I don't trust you guys, it's just that people can make mistakes. I know I have :P).
The Black Court reference seems so out of place in the statement that Lash is making right before she dies fighting off the mind whammy from Vittorio. Everyone wonders if it was a typo.
There is a WoJ floating around though where someone specifically asked him about it and he said that it was about the vampires, not the Black Council - no typo.
-
Can you point me to where that WoJ is? I'd like to hear it/read it for myself (it's not that I don't trust you guys, it's just that people can make mistakes.
Umm... I can't find it. :-[
If anyone can, plz post it.
-
Ill have to dig.. its not something I ran into myself, there was a thread by another poster a while back that went into all the various myths about the leanasidhe. ;D
Ah. Well all I've been able to find is the idea of her being a muse in exchange for their love. Though according to WB Yeats if a mortal refused her love she had to be their slave. If not they became hers and either died or found someone to take their place.
-
Umm... I can't find it. :-[
If anyone can, plz post it.
No one has invoked Serack yet???
Serack--could you help us find a WoJ re: in WN, it was not a typo that Lash says the Black Court when she tells Harry that she will tell him about his mother's involvment with them instead of saying the Black Council.
-
No one has invoked Serack yet???
Serack--could you help us find a WoJ re: in WN, it was not a typo that Lash says the Black Court when she tells Harry that she will tell him about his mother's involvment with them instead of saying the Black Council.
i can find it either, which is strange, as i had it favorited
i think w ehave anoithe rlost woj, folks
from what i recall, :
"in white night Lash mentions Black Court, did she mean Black Council?"
Jim " No. (evil smiley)"
-
I took the better part of an afternoon once digging for this WoJ quote and came up empty handed. If it is real, it likely died in a server glitch at some point. If a Beta or two wants to comfirm this or denie this (as they help find these sort of things) then I would take it as almost as good as a WoJ.
If the BK or necromancy in general can be tied somehow to the outsiders or the outside, it impacts quite a few plot threads.
I know Lovecraft kind of mixed the dead with his unspeakable outside horrors – but that in no way means that is what JB is doing.
-
i think the BC are going beyond the gate seeking power. theoretically its possible for them to survive and return.
-
I took the better part of an afternoon once digging for this WoJ quote and came up empty handed. If it is real, it likely died in a server glitch at some point. If a Beta or two wants to comfirm this or denie this (as they help find these sort of things) then I would take it as almost as good as a WoJ.
The Betas or Serack should know this. At worst we'll have to ask another time.
-
The Betas or Serack should know this. At worst we'll have to ask another time.
it seems like i looked at this particular quote just a few days ago... :-\
-
it seems like i looked at this particular quote just a few days ago... :-\
I made a search, it seems it's a widely believed legend on the forum, and that absolutely no one has proof it's true. A thread on the subject. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32986.msg1485765.html#msg1485765)
-
I have a feeling that it was in an Amazon comment.
-
I made a search, it seems it's a widely believed legend on the forum, and that absolutely no one has proof it's true. A thread on the subject. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32986.msg1485765.html#msg1485765)
ill swear its true. im dang sure ive read it, along with another comment Jim said about the Black Court i had favorited but cant find now.. the one where he says the blacks will ebimprotant later, 'because hes too lazy a writer to put that much work into something and not use it.'
I had it sourced because i was using it to back up my 'lovecraft theory' back in 2010
-
i can find it either, which is strange, as i had it favorited
i think w ehave anoithe rlost woj, folks
from what i recall, :
"in white night Lash mentions Black Court, did she mean Black Council?"
Jim " No. (evil smiley)"
Interesting, here Is what I found.
Jim answers a question here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,2195.msg59071.html#msg59071) about thomas being able to find the deeps through the NN, and then 2 posts later someone asks about that very issue with no response from Jim that I can find. Nothing else in the WoJ section seems to come close.
We are having technical difficulties with the 2009 bitten by books Q&A so I can't check that directly.
-
Interesting, here Is what I found.
Jim answers a question here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,2195.msg59071.html#msg59071) about thomas being able to find the deeps through the NN, and then 2 posts later someone asks about that very issue with no response from Jim that I can find. Nothing else in the WoJ section seems to come close.
We are having technical difficulties with the 2009 bitten by books Q&A so I can't check that directly.
from what i recall, it is from a transcript of a question and answer session, if that helps any. you recall having a thread of 'stuff to be transcrptied' that would late be put into your index? it was in there.
-
I just can't see any way that having black court instead of black council would make any sense at all. I cannot recall a single instance where Harry finds any shred of a connection between his mother and the black court in any of the books. It makes so much more sense for him to be talking about the black council.
-
I just can't see any way that having black court instead of black council would make any sense at all. I cannot recall a single instance where Harry finds any shred of a connection between his mother and the black court in any of the books. It makes so much more sense for him to be talking about the black council.
its in the deep backstory, the black court war is likely what caused the formation of the black council
-
I just can't see any way that having black court instead of black council would make any sense at all. I cannot recall a single instance where Harry finds any shred of a connection between his mother and the black court in any of the books. It makes so much more sense for him to be talking about the black council.
You are a vampire. You try to shift suspicions sonewhere else. ;D
There is another similar case with stokers book where some people initially thought white council in stead of white court. But it made sense later.
Harry sometimes has flashes of insight. Foresight maybe. I think it was more based on vague feelings than anything else but as a wizard you have to take these feelings seriously.
It is one of those vague clues that are everywhere in the books. You can build a theory on it. Or go for one that is already proposed.
its in the deep backstory, the black court war is likely what caused the formation of the black council
Yes, that one :)
-
its in the deep backstory, the black court war is likely what caused the formation of the black council
Isn't that your own theory? I mean, it's a great theory but it isn't directly stated in the books. I haven't seen anyone else float a notion like that either so the clues must be pretty deep. Harry certainly hasn't thought of anything like that.
You are a vampire. You try to shift suspicions sonewhere else. ;D
There is another similar case with stokers book where some people initially thought white council in stead of white court. But it made sense later.
Harry sometimes has flashes of insight. Foresight maybe. I think it was more based on vague feelings than anything else but as a wizard you have to take these feelings seriously.
It is one of those vague clues that are everywhere in the books. You can build a theory on it. Or go for one that is already proposed.
Yes, that one :)
You mean his wizard precognition that he learned about in Turn Coat (I think)?
Eh, even taking that into account I think it's a little too weak to built a theory on. I'm going to wait for more evidence.
-
Count, you've been over in the thread about suspcts for SF-FM-BR, right? Grandpanj....(crap, forgot the rest of his/her name) put forth a fairly convincing discussion of Mavra's action behind the scenes , which to me has opened up possible implications for the Black Court being way more involved than I was thinking...
-
Count, you've been over in the thread about suspcts for SF-FM-BR, right? Grandpanj....(crap, forgot the rest of his/her name) put forth a fairly convincing discussion of Mavra's action behind the scenes , which to me has opened up possible implications for the Black Court being way more involved than I was thinking...
To my thinking, it's basically useless to talk about the black court as a whole when theorizing.
You've got to remember that there really aren't many advantages for a black court vamp to ally with other black court vamps nowadays. Back when there was a huge black court alliance lots of the members had control over other members. Nowadays two black court who meet have to trust each other just like they would to any other species they chose to ally with. There's also the fact that BC vamps have to feed a LOT. Doubling (tripling, quadrupling etc) is really not a good idea because it will probably convince the local supes to come down on you. hard (remember that Harry was obligated as a wizard of the WC to destroy the BC nest of one master vamp).
There really aren't many advantages for BC vamps allying with each other over other supernatural beings. The BC vamps that survived the Stokerpolpse are going to be doing there own things. They probably wouldn't care about what another BC vamp was doing unless it impacted them in some way.
GP's theory's are very interesting but even if true, don't really imply that the BC as a whole are involved just because one member is. There's also the fact that GP doesn't mention anything regarding Mavra and mama Dresden.
-
Isn't that your own theory? I mean, it's a great theory but it isn't directly stated in the books. I haven't seen anyone else float a notion like that either so the clues must be pretty deep. Harry certainly hasn't thought of anything like that.
You mean his wizard precognition that he learned about in Turn Coat (I think)?
Eh, even taking that into account I think it's a little too weak to built a theory on. I'm going to wait for more evidence.
You are waiting for evidence before building your theory? :o
-
Isn't that your own theory? I mean, it's a great theory but it isn't directly stated in the books. I haven't seen anyone else float a notion like that either so the clues must be pretty deep. Harry certainly hasn't thought of anything like that.
You mean his wizard precognition that he learned about in Turn Coat (I think)?
Eh, even taking that into account I think it's a little too weak to built a theory on. I'm going to wait for more evidence.
yes, its mine, but all the evindence..and there is quite a bit..is in the woj. Jim just keeps mentioning the black court, over and over again..and hes been doing it since before there was a forum.
its like hes realy proud of it or something ;)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html)
check out the 'lobecraft' 'gothic vampires' and .marci' threads there
then hit the woj, serach for black court- not just the pieces in the index, there is a lot more..and enjoy.
maybe i missed something :)
as to if its a mistake.. as JIm said ' im a lazy writer. i wouldnt have put that much work into them if i wasnt going to use them.'
-
yes, its mine, but all the evindence..and there is quite a bit..is in the woj. Jim just keeps mentioning the black court, over and over again..and hes been doing it since before there was a forum.
its like hes realy proud of it or something ;)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html)
check out the 'lobecraft' 'gothic vampires' and .marci' threads there
then hit the woj, serach for black court- not just the pieces in the index, there is a lot more..and enjoy.
maybe i missed something :)
as to if its a mistake.. as JIm said ' im a lazy writer. i wouldnt have put that much work into them if i wasnt going to use them.'
I can't think of any references towards the Black Court that wasn't in response to a question (which don't really count since it's not him that really choosing to reference them) and in a few short stories (the number of references towards White Court and Red Court vamps still far outweigh those though). He mentions the Black Court because people ask him about the Black Court (or they ask questions that require him to mention the Black Court). I searched the entire WoJ compilation and 5 topics below the stickies section but couldn't find anything more. I would be thankful if you could give me a link.
I have actually looked at those threads you mentioned previously. The thing is though, that I don't feel you have enough evidence to say that Mavra wants the Black Court back to it's former power or that the other remnants of the Black Court are all banding together. I find it very plausible that Mavra is part of the Circle/BC/possibly Nemesis infected but I just don't see much evidence for the remnants of the Black Court being involved too (see my previous post as to why).
These are the only parts of your theories that I can see having a leg to stand on in regards to the resurrection of the Black Court Elders are the Fomor collecting magically rich blood and the Kemmler connection. These are still however, only two speculative parts of theories. It's not nearly enough to convince me.
I'm also still confused as to WHY she wants to bring the Elders back. I mean, if your theory is true than it's not like Mavra is wanting for powerful allies. If the reason she wants to bring them back is because of some secret they hold instead of their power than how much good could that secret really do? It didn't help the Black Court when they were at the height of their power so why would it help them now?
Also remember that Jim specifically says that everyone resented how powerful the black had become. Why would the other members of the alliance ally with Mavra and go along with her plan to ressurect the BC Elders?
Really, I think that Jim has put far more work into both the RC and WC instead of the BC.
-
I can't think of any references towards the Black Court that wasn't in response to a question (which don't really count since it's not him that really choosing to reference them) and in a few short stories (the number of references towards White Court and Red Court vamps still far outweigh those though). He mentions the Black Court because people ask him about the Black Court (or they ask questions that require him to mention the Black Court). I searched the entire WoJ compilation and 5 topics below the stickies section but couldn't find anything more. I would be thankful if you could give me a link.
I have actually looked at those threads you mentioned previously. The thing is though, that I don't feel you have enough evidence to say that Mavra wants the Black Court back to it's former power or that the other remnants of the Black Court are all banding together. I find it very plausible that Mavra is part of the Circle/BC/possibly Nemesis infected but I just don't see much evidence for the remnants of the Black Court being involved too (see my previous post as to why).
These are the only parts of your theories that I can see having a leg to stand on in regards to the resurrection of the Black Court Elders are the Fomor collecting magically rich blood and the Kemmler connection. These are still however, only two speculative parts of theories. It's not nearly enough to convince me.
I'm also still confused as to WHY she wants to bring the Elders back. I mean, if your theory is true than it's not like Mavra is wanting for powerful allies. If the reason she wants to bring them back is because of some secret they hold instead of their power than how much good could that secret really do? It didn't help the Black Court when they were at the height of their power so why would it help them now?
Also remember that Jim specifically says that everyone resented how powerful the black had become. Why would the other members of the alliance ally with Mavra and go along with her plan to ressurect the BC Elders?
Really, I think that Jim has put far more work into both the RC and WC instead of the BC.
hmm..
the first any of us ever heard about the black court elders at all was in 2009, in a post about Mab:
Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania--though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened.
which did cause a few questions that year:
4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world. And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city). Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts. *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.
(and shouldn't the black court be the most numerous? in blood rites, ebenezer mentioned after a few weeks, there would be dozens or even hundreds of vamps, so y don't the black court vamps just settle down in africa or india and start biting away?)Nukes.
You get all /that/ assertive, and you risk stirring mortals into awareness. And we monkeys are /dangerous/ in large groups, especially with all our ferromancy (technology).
There's also a psychological issue on behalf of the vampires. Bear in mind that evolution made a pretty brutal selection among the Black Court. The ones who survived and prospered were those who avoided notice, respected the potential danger mortals represented, and who were generally quick to leave town rather than charge into a confrontation.
In any personal-scale conflict, a mature BC vamp is gonna tear holes through any mortal or White Court vampire. But the mortals started cheating, and doing all their fighting in angry mobs, and creating weapons that were ridiculously overpowered for the job of killing one another which could actually inconvenience, wound, or even kill a BC vamp. Murphy did all right in that BC nest, because she had allies, appropriate weapons and (most importantly) knowledge and a plan.
now thos wasnt in answer to a question at all, he just chimed in a thread about the white court:
Die of syphilis? God, no, man. Stoker was the cutout.
The BC didn't /know/ about the WC's involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic. The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic. They don't have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway? If one needs to vent one's spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.
The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films.
(now let me put out total word count of things Jim has just chimed in on for the blacks is now double about that for the whites, and infinite more than that about the reds- cause they got zero. in fact, the reds dont even have a section in the woj.)
oh, and here is jim just chiming in again.. without being asked..in a thread about using the word on mavra
Harry wasn't bluffing.
and then theres all the little details issue. not just lash's last words- which are a very common trope in pulp mystery by the way ( the girl runs up to the detective " harvey, i know who shot the predsident! It was Mr. Sanp.." <bang! Bang! she falls dead.> "noooooo!")(then the detecive spends four books trying to find Mr. Snap.. snape? snapple? snappdragon?) but also:
-the merlin saying harry has no idea how bad it can get
-what happened on the isle in 1890
-who the last warden was
-why the whites betrayed the blacks, and how
-what mavra was up to in GP, BR, DB
-why eb dropped all those Nukes in the late 19th century
- what was the secret dinner (very likely in 1890) about
etc,etc,etc.. something very majoir happened back then
im not the only one putting this together. yall can put the pieces any way you want , please do. But the black court is up to something; thats why when somone else asked JIm if they were, he snarked
"im too lazy a writer to put this much work into them if I wasnt going to use them."
-
hmm..
the first any of us ever heard about the black court elders at all was in 2009, in a post about Mab:
which did cause a few questions that year:
now thos wasnt in answer to a question at all, he just chimed in a thread about the white court:
(now let me put out total word count of things Jim has just chimed in on for the blacks is now double about that for the whites, and infinite more than that about the reds- cause they got zero. in fact, the reds dont even have a section in the woj.)
oh, and here is jim just chiming in again.. without being asked..in a thread about using the word on mavra
and then theres all the little details issue. not just lash's last words- which are a very common trope in pulp mystery by the way ( the girl runs up to the detective " harvey, i know who shot the predsident! It was Mr. Sanp.." <bang! Bang! she falls dead.> "noooooo!")(then the detecive spends four books trying to find Mr. Snap.. snape? snapple? snappdragon?) but also:
-the merlin saying harry has no idea how bad it can get
-what happened on the isle in 1890
-who the last warden was
-why the whites betrayed the blacks, and how
-what mavra was up to in GP, BR, DB
-why eb dropped all those Nukes in the late 19th century
- what was the secret dinner (very likely in 1890) about
etc,etc,etc.. something very majoir happened back then
im not the only one putting this together. yall can put the pieces any way you want , please do. But the black court is up to something; thats why when somone else asked JIm if they were, he snarked
"im too lazy a writer to put this much work into them if I wasnt going to use them."
I ignored the post about Mab because I didn't really see it helping the Black Court case all that much. He also mentions a bunch of other beings so it's not like he's specially mentioning the Black Court. Really, I see it as him seeing an opportunity to show people why everyone hated the Black Court so much.
I'm ignoring Jim answering questions because he has too. I mean, if someone asks something like: Can a Black Court vamp survive having his arm blown off? How is he going to answer that without mentioning the Black Court? If he answers questions about the Black Court over and over again, that doesn't point to anything except the fans being interested in the Black Court. Heck, if he wanted to use the BC Elders or the BC remnants further along in the books than it would have been more effective to be vague instead of going into so much detail. Leaving it to people to fill in the blanks themselves would get people more excited for the appearance of the Black Court.
When Jim posted in the WC thread he wasn't just throwing out BC tidbits. He was replying to critiques of his writing. If someone said something like "Why is Eb not murdering Lord Raith for killing Maggie" then Jim would reply to that. The subject matter doesn't matter (heh).
If you include the word count from the books (which is what I was doing. Sorry for the miscommunication) the mentions of the RC and the WC dwarfs mentions of the BC.
I think you may have something with the Mavra mention. A counter is that Jim did it because the information wasn't plot relevant and so he felt no need to keep quiet. It's like if someone . This would actually make it more likely that Harry threatening Mavra is not plot relevant (or else why would Jim just hop in and say something so straightforward? It would make more sense to let the mystery build up like he did with countless other plot-relevant mysteries)
It wasn't Lash's last words in which the Black Court were mentioned. It was Harry's words. That is a huge difference. How the heck does Harry know about the (supposed) connection between his mother and the Black Court? The only explanation I can think up is his wizardly precognition subconsciously influencing him.
We know why the Whites betrayed (how do you know they were allied in the first place?) and how they got rid of them ???. They got rid of them because the Blacks were getting too powerful. They got rid of them by getting Stoker to right Dracula.
The rest of the stuff can fit a huge number of other explanations. The Black Court explanation is just a drop in a pool.
I can't find that last WoJ. Can I get a link/quote?
-
mavra IS after thomas for a betrayal btw...
-
its lost, sorry
but its real. other folks remeber it... Serrack thinks its from a vidoe that gotten messed up, he wa slooking for it and a few others from that book talk a few weeks back.
as to what harry knows and what he doesnt know, well he doesnt tell us everything.
as to the import, let me look at it annother way:
as of WN, Jim had betas- Shecky and Priscellie at least- and they read each chapter as its written. they then edit, respond, sugest rewrites. then the completed product goes to the agent, and then on to the editors.. who all do the same.
soemthing like that? an of say 20 people who saw it before publishing, no one noticed? and of the ten million people who read it, then no one mentioned it so it could be corrected in the paperback?
yea, its a real clue bat. ;D
and while Mavra hasnt had a lot written about her in the books, she:
- set up biance in GP
-helped start the war
-did it in such a fashion at to prepare chicago for DB, four years later
- set up a compext plot in BR
-its very possible she was in town to set up the assination of lord raith, her old enemy
- took photos with which to black mail harry, before anyone knew about the word
- set up a very complex scheme in DB, for reasons we dont fully know
thats a lot of backstory, count
-
as of WN, Jim had betas- Shecky and Priscellie at least- and they read each chapter as its written. they then edit, respond, sugest rewrites. then the completed product goes to the agent, and then on to the editors.. who all do the same.
soemthing like that? an of say 20 people who saw it before publishing, no one noticed? and of the ten million people who read it, then no one mentioned it so it could be corrected in the paperback?
what precisely are you referring to?
-
what precisely are you referring to?
we are discussing the line in wn, pg 364
"after which we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these outsiders and there relation to the black court and exactly what the hell was going on."
-
Gosh, all this conjecture is fun to read...and frustrating if your own personal WAG takes you different directions. Such as this:
In the times we've seen Mavra operating, it suggests to me a character more interested in herself, than in allegiance to some unknown Black Elder(s). We see her tutoring Bianca in magic (allegedly well enough to throw off Harry's initial "Fuego" blast). We find out she was, likely, the catalyst to tormenting ghosts with barbwire bindings to thin the boundaries of Reality and the Never Never. It was Mavra who stalled Harry during Bianca's social hour to assure that a confrontation would take place. Mavra orchestrated the Red Court War, in my opinion. Arguably, there is a relationship between Mavra, Ortega, and Arianna. This relationship culminated in the Blood Curse at Chichen Itza first tested in Storm Front when someone (Mavra in my opinion) taught Victor Sells black magic. As I said before, I think you can attach Mavra to just about every book in the series so far.
Storm Front- training Victor Sells to torment and pressure Marcone (to secure Kemmerler's Word)
Fool Moon- Using an Erlking talisman to create the hexenwulf belts (to secure Kemmerler's Word)
Grave Peril- Training Bianca, Instigating the Red Court War, Infecting Lea
Summer Knight- Putting turmoil into the Never Never and weakening Mab, infecting Maeve
Death Masks- We see one of Mavra's opponents for the first time...and they're just as scary. Yes, the Denarians are contrary to the plans of Mavra. Nicodemus points this out in Small Favor by suggesting that the Red Court are fatal to any long-ranged plan of his, and offers to ally with the White Council. Mavra is using the Red Court as her army (stengthed with Outsider mercenaries). As more Outsiders become available they become more of an adversary to the Denarians because the Fallen Angels are all about the journey (despair, sorrow, chaos). While the Outsiders are about the END.
Blood Rites- This book is about securing blackmail material on one of Harry's confidantes. Mavra has done her homework on Harry's life and motivations. Those same points are reitterated by Ortega on the field of Duello in detail in the previous book, which suggests a relationship with Mavra. He knows all about Harry and his allies (including the Alpha's).
Dead Beat: Mavra uses her blackmail to secure Kemmerler's Word (which she has been trying to secure since before Storm Front). And, she sets it up to assure that all the Kemmerlerites are dead by the end (although she misjudges...Harry, Cowl, Evil Bob, and possibly Kumori remain alive).
Proven Guilty: The whole book reflects a weakened Winter combating the damage done by Mavra's introduction of the Nemesis infection...and Winter's steps to rebuild strength (Molly, probably Sarissa is called on in the background, Leanansidhe's undergoing a cure).
White Night: Cowl has turned way from Mavra (who tried to kill him in Dead Beat) and secured new allies...(Ghouls, White Court (absolute enemy of Black Court).
Small Favor: Nicodemus is back, and is truly concerned at this point because Mavra has finally introduced the Outsiders to the Red Court, and he sees his control slipping away. He needs to increase his own strength and chooses Ivy as his conquest to do just that. He even sees Marcone as a possible asset (mentioned in Death Masks). He needs more coins. He needs quality carriers, and Ivy with a coin would trump anything Mavra can put together at the time allowing the Denarians to go on the offense. They are desparate as is reflected by the ritual they use to obtain Marcone (it was against the rules and allowed Harry Soulfire to contain them).
Turn Coat: Peabody is Mavra's pigeon in the White Council. It is a way to weaken them against the Red Court...to assure it's eventual destruction while she works on increasing the number of Outsiders introduced into reality...Turn Coat is the culmination of the forced stalling. It is an attempt to weaken the Wardens by compromising Luccio (but, Morgan inadvertantly steps in). The Nagloshii and Madeline are taking instructions from Mavra (telephone Binder gave Harry...female voice in Egypt and somewhere else with continental accent). Mavra tries to set up the White Court at the same time as a bonus.
Changes: Mavra's big plans for the Red Court take a big hit when Harry (using Winter's power) ends them. Odin takes a front row role, and does Leanansidhe. This is the good guys going on the offensive for the first time against Mavra, if you can call Winter, and Odin..."good guys." This, is also, in my opinion the first attempt by Mavra to compromise Demonreach (I know, it is based on a pure guess that Harry is related to the original Merlin).
Ghost Story: Intermission...Harry needs an object lesson in repercussions. Disposes of Corpsetaker in the process.
Cold Days: Mavra's Maeve plan fails. And it might just be the most damaging miscalulation of this behind the scenes war, because Winter has secured a competent Lady, as has Summer. There is a potential for Winter and Summer to cooperate more fully with these known entities. The Winter Knight is now invested in Winter because of Molly. However, Mavra has had Kemmerler's Word since Dead Beat. In my opinion, one of the Halloweens since Dead Beat has allowed her to return to her original form...Morgana le Fay.
The War is about to heat up and there are all kinds of different factions. Cowl, now on his own. Harry and the Winter contingency. The Denarians still looking to boost their power. Morgana and the Outsiders. White Court building mortal power and influence. Trust me on this one...Mab is now in a position to hand out a little payback once she trains up her Lady...and she will be merciless. ;D
DISCLAIMER: This is all conjecture, speculation and a healthy dose of bull sh*t. But, it's aggravatingly fun to think about until the next book. Hurry up, Jim!!!
-
simple though... mavra promotes BC elders because of self gain, if the elders ever come back into power she gets credit for her work and all of the BC gain more power... pragmatism can still rely on impowering your seniors :P
-
I see it as more cyclic- every five books is a nico book, every three books is a mab book..
this is done on purpose to keep us geussing and avoid villain decay.
-
simple though... mavra promotes BC elders because of self gain, if the elders ever come back into power she gets credit for her work and all of the BC gain more power... pragmatism can still rely on impowering your seniors :P
Perhaps...but she strikes me as someone who really doesn't want to answer to a higher power. She no one's lackey as displayed by how she seems to be meddling with the Red Court like it was a toy.
-
Perhaps...but she strikes me as someone who really doesn't want to answer to a higher power. She no one's lackey as displayed by how she seems to be meddling with the Red Court like it was a toy.
true but we've never seen her with any BC higher ups. to us a metaphor nazi's looked down on anyone who wasn't them, but they all said 'heil hitler' without a problem.