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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SpacedCowboy on July 15, 2020, 06:15:52 AM

Title: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 15, 2020, 06:15:52 AM

So here's an idea out of left-field.

(click to show/hide)

• We know, because it was pointed out at length with all the experimentation, that the Lightsaber Sword of Faith cannot harm a human.
• We know, because of its description, that it's still a potent weapon. Indeed the characters posit an angel being the sword's battery, so it's still dangerous to non-humans. In fact the theory goes that it can decide who or what to hurt...
• We have a main character, Thomas, who is gravely injured - to the point that Lara *tries* to help him, but says that there isn't much point (despite all the effort she went through to retrieve him) - he's too far gone, and his Demon is eating him alive. She's seen it before, it's too late.

Here's how that could play out:

• What if Butters passed the Sword of Faith through Thomas, killing off the supernatural predator preying on the human, and leaving the man behind ?
• You are born as a white-court Vampire. You have virtually no escape. How does that jibe with the free will that the Angels are all supposed to be about ? Seems like something that the embedded Angel might be able to do something about...
• What if someone sees it happening ? Butters is about to be very-much persona non grata according to the White Court. He's about to be their anathema. He is after all a known acquaintance of the wizard who just wiped out the Red court...
• What if Thomas objects ? Despite the downside, being a vampire is very much what Thomas *is*. If he "wakes up" and finds he's mortal and weak again, he may never forgive the person who did it to him. Or he could be cool with it, but that doesn't sound like Jim.
• Maybe Thomas turns into a slob :) Sinking into despair and disillusionment as he realises what he had, and what he's lost, especially if Justine really was the betrayer (Thomas keeps trying to say her name, and we're supposed to think it's true love, but I'm not buying that just yet), and he doesn't even get the thing that (as a Vampire) he thought he always wanted. Does he blame Butters for owning the tool ? Or does Harry (who presumably is involved in this "cure" somehow) get the blame as usual   ?

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Yuillegan on July 15, 2020, 06:30:45 AM

Very interesting theory. Certainly, I think it's a possible resolution. However, the main issue I can see is that it would always do that for halflings like Thomas. Which wouldn't be super useful if one attacked you.

Personally, I think there is more to the Thomas story. Part of who the character is as a person is his struggle. The character wouldn't be as interesting without such problems. But then again, maybe it would add new ones.

Still though, interesting notion!

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 07:40:40 AM

White court vampires make their choice at the height of adolescence hormone levels in a setting chosen and controlled by their white court parent. They decide to have sex with someone and the demon starts feeding until the victim is killed.

Angels are full of free will but that does not mean well informed choices by grown up emotional stable minds. They prefer to keep you as ignorant as possible because knowledge could influence your choices.

We can also talk about the free will of the victim. She probably wanted to live but....

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 08:29:20 AM

Thomas experienced all the pain he inflicted on others when he was sent down, which suggests a redemption arc.

However the little scene explaining the swords, doesn’t just explain the sword of faith,  it explains them all, and if they powered by an angel then,  it suggests all are capable of a range of effects if one intercedes with the angel. Killing his hunger at this time will kill Thomas, he needs massive infusions of life energy or a suitable alternative.

Thomas is susceptible to  True Love as a white Court vampire, and Harry has the sword of love, The Shroud and the Crown of Thorns, so what if instead they are used to invert Thomas’ demon from an incubus to an outcubus, a Cupid, feeding on love freely given, and repulsed by naked lust. Love is akin to the power of creation, Lara gets her brother back but radically changed, Harry retains a powerful ally, Eb gets a cupid as a grandson. Eb is actually quite speciest, not just about Vamps, but see how he treats Etri’s people, he might still have problems with a new Thomas and with Bonny.

This would allow Thomas to pick up a sword and be Arthur to Harry’s Merlin.

We don’t know enough about the White Courts origins, what if their founder was someone like Cupid corrupted? And Harry can correct it.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: whitelaughter on July 15, 2020, 09:46:51 AM

I like the idea that Butters, *a*doctor*, can effectively have a Scalpel of Faith.

This called also be used to save Justine's life: given how much of her life essence she's lost, I cannot currently see her surviving a pregnancy that kills half of all mothers (and remember that'll be including one night stands who've lost next to nothing). If Butters frees the kid from its phage though, all is well.

Presumably the reason children of white court vampires are rare is linked to the whole 'true love' thing: mother love could be fatal to the child, causing a miscarriage.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 11:34:23 AM

We know there is a cure for Whampirism, True Love before fatal feeding. The hunger just withers away. I think that exposition together with the swords exposition may provide a cure for Thomas

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Gigglestomp on July 15, 2020, 01:34:04 PM

Thomas is going to have sex with a big foot to stabilize. Then, they might be able to kill his hunger with the sword but at this point it may be too intertwined with his pattern to remove.

We also know there are 3 squatch / halfsquatch in town or around, though all are male.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 02:48:47 PM

I am not sure Thomas is River Shoulders type, and frankly the Genowskwa is too much rough trade, and Irving isn’t in town yet. An alternative would be if Thomas was whammied Etri’s people donating the life force, to make up for the damage they did to him as puppet and nor principal Evanna allowing herself to be fed on unto death to compensate. Very in keeping with their outlook on life.

An alternative it was Evanna who whammied Thomas to kill Etri, most murders are committed by someone you know, maybe Thomas broke it off with her, due to Justine, triggering her to get Thomas to attack Etri. Very strange for a Swartelf, but Nemesis? She is second amongst Etri’s people, typical target for Nemesis. Maybe they got to Evanna in the same way they got to Lea.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 15, 2020, 03:04:33 PM

Quote from: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 07:40:40 AM

White court vampires make their choice at the height of adolescence hormone levels in a setting chosen and controlled by their white court parent. They decide to have sex with someone and the demon starts feeding until the victim is killed

I think you’re describing an act and the consequences, not an informed choice - and I think a choice without any knowledge of the consequences is no choice at all. In no way (in the only example we’ve seen) was a choice made *to become a vampire*. Inari was an innocent, and if all it took to be eternally damned was to have sex as a horny teenager, well, I’m just saying there’d be a lot of vampires around.

Quote from: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 07:40:40 AM

Angels are full of free will but that does not mean well informed choices by grown up emotional stable minds. They prefer to keep you as ignorant as possible because knowledge could influence your choices.

I .. don’t see it that way. Angels have *no* free will (something that the fallen seem pretty annoyed about, actually), and I don’t think they *prefer* to keep you ignorant. I think there are rules that angels have to follow to prevent their adversaries from also being able to act, so the “good guys” are generally limited to correcting what the “bad guys” did, but I don’t see any angelic preference for ignorance on the part of the human actors.

Quote from: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 07:40:40 AM

We can also talk about the free will of the victim. She probably wanted to live but....

Agreed, but by your own argument, (s)he made the choice (uninformed, presumably) to have sex with a vampire, so...

Personally, I can see an Angel whose job it is to fight supernatural creatures being a-ok with just harming the predator (the hunger) in this instance. I don’t think there is any attempt to harm the human by any of the swords, it’s just the consequence of being hit with a sharp pointy piece of metal while the Angel does its own job. Remove the metal, and the human gets off “scot free”.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 03:17:40 PM

Quote from: SpacedCowboy on July 15, 2020, 03:04:33 PM

I think you’re describing an act and the consequences, not an informed choice - and I think a choice without any knowledge of the consequences is no choice at all. In no way (in the only example we’ve seen) was a choice made *to become a vampire*. Inari was an innocent, and if all it took to be eternally damned was to have sex as a horny teenager, well, I’m just saying there’d be a lot of vampires around.

I .. don’t see it that way. Angels have *no* free will (something that the fallen seem pretty annoyed about, actually), and I don’t think they *prefer* to keep you ignorant. I think there are rules that angels have to follow to prevent their adversaries from also being able to act, so the “good guys” are generally limited to correcting what the “bad guys” did, but I don’t see any angelic preference for ignorance on the part of the human actors.

Agreed, but by your own argument, (s)he made the choice (uninformed, presumably) to have sex with a vampire, so...

Personally, I can see an Angel whose job it is to fight supernatural creatures being a-ok with just harming the predator (the hunger) in this instance. I don’t think there is any attempt to harm the human by any of the swords, it’s just the consequence of being hit with a sharp pointy piece of metal while the Angel does its own job. Remove the metal, and the human gets off “scot free”.

I think you misunderstood me. Angels talk about free will... For humans
When Harry needs some information to make an informed choice Uriel is not a fountain of information.

Angels do not have free will, they have purpose.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 15, 2020, 03:22:04 PM

Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 08:29:20 AM

Thomas experienced all the pain he inflicted on others when he was sent down, which suggests a redemption arc.

Yup.

Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 08:29:20 AM

Killing his hunger at this time will kill Thomas, he needs massive infusions of life energy or a suitable alternative.

Well, that depends on whether it’s Thomas that needs the energy or the demon. If you’re a demon capable of the things that Thomas’s can do, you presumably have the demonic equivalent of a high metabolism, presumably higher than a normal human’s. Removal of the demon (which up until now has been seen as impossible, so no-one knows the consequences) could be all that’s necessary for Thomas’s body to recover on his own.

Another possibility is that this is Harry’s ‘out’ from being the Winter Knight - that Thomas does need an influx of energy, and the Knight’s mantle is how he gets it, same deal as Harry - an immediate need with long term consequences. I don’t actually think this is the case for a bunch of reasons (I don’t see the upside for Mab, Harry needs more power in times to come, not less, and it cheapens the redemption arc) but it’s possible, and it would let Jim have the two brothers standing together against the enemy.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 03:30:04 PM

Well if you want a complete mess what about Thomas feeding on other inmates?

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Mira on July 15, 2020, 03:38:24 PM

Quote from: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 03:30:04 PM

Well if you want a complete mess what about Thomas feeding on other inmates?

Isn't he in solitary?  That's the impression I got from my quick skim..... Supposed to get the book
today, so far no cigar.. :(

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 03:44:44 PM

Quote from: Mira on July 15, 2020, 03:38:24 PM

Isn't he in solitary?  That's the impression I got from my quick skim..... Supposed to get the book
today, so far no cigar.. :(

He is and he is totally weakened but with the help of the island and its warden something might be arranged.

The propblem of course is that you are what you eat

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: SpacedCowboy on July 15, 2020, 03:45:01 PM

Quote from: Mira on July 15, 2020, 03:38:24 PM

Isn't he in solitary?  That's the impression I got from my quick skim..... Supposed to get the book
today, so far no cigar.. :(

Yeah, he’s on the “keep the human sane and mostly asleep” protocol.

It occurs to me that the cell might provide its inmate with whatever it needs to keep it alive, which in this case is a whole bunch of energy. This assumes that ‘execution if possible’ isn’t part of the islands purpose, but we’ve seen a previous human inmate surviving reasonably well, so I doubt that.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Korwin on July 15, 2020, 04:13:36 PM

Any good theories about why Thomas attempted the assanination?
Not buying the, someone threatened his girlfriend theory of Harry.

Waiting for an big revelation on that point in the next book (or in an later one)...

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 04:19:23 PM

Quote from: Korwin on July 15, 2020, 04:13:36 PM

Any good theories about why Thomas attempted the assanination?
Not buying the, someone threatened his girlfriend theory of Harry.

Waiting for an big revelation on that point in the next book (or in an later one)...

His demon got out of control after all the warnings Harry and Justine gave him. He ran away from Justine and then the demon made him run to the nearest food source it knew.

Maybe someone helped it to get out of control. The skinwalker is an option.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 04:31:50 PM

I like that he was whammied with Eb or Evanna the suspects, Eb to deal with ‘that’ once and for all and to convince Harry to see things his way on Maggie. Eb is quite speciest towards the Swartalves, and perhaps didn’t think he could get so close

Evanna would have to be Nemfected to act like this, but Nemesis has a history of infecting second in commands, they did it with the Winter Court Perhaps Thomas told her no more screwing around as he is about to become a father, prompting her to use Thomas as the instrument to take out Etri in a fit of pique.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Gigglestomp on July 15, 2020, 04:57:32 PM

Technically he's not in solitary he can talk to other inmates in the same protocol contemplation. (The brit)

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: vultur on July 15, 2020, 06:36:06 PM

Quote from: Korwin on July 15, 2020, 04:13:36 PM

Any good theories about why Thomas attempted the assanination?

I was figuring Oblivion War stuff.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Arcanist37 on July 16, 2020, 03:07:07 AM

Quote from: vultur on July 15, 2020, 06:36:06 PM

I was figuring Oblivion War stuff.

In the past, Jim has been pretty clear about not including the Oblivion War in the main story.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: vultur on July 16, 2020, 04:16:49 PM

Quote from: Arcanist37 on July 16, 2020, 03:07:07 AM

In the past, Jim has been pretty clear about not including the Oblivion War in the main story.

Hmm, ok.

There are a ton of call-backs to the short stories in PT though (River Shoulders, the state Carlos is in, grendelkin are referenced) so it sounded plausible.

Do you have a reference for that? The intro to Backup in Side Jobs talks about it, but the way that's worded isn't IMO incompatible with this.

We - the readers - know why Carlos is so messed up in PT, but Harry doesn't. The same could hold true for this. Maybe all Harry will learn is that Lara ordered him to do it, but the implication will be clear to us that it's an Oblivion thing.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Walter the skull on July 16, 2020, 05:25:47 PM

I don't think Jim said that the Oblivion war wouldn't be in the main series, just that Harry would never find out about it.  Any time we see Ivy, we're seeing the Oblivion war.  Hell, I wonder if some of the outsiders are losers of the Oblivion war.

Title: Re: "Stick 'em with the pointy end" ... Peace Talks Spoilers
Post by: Bad Alias on July 17, 2020, 02:44:51 AM

Quote from: vultur on July 16, 2020, 04:16:49 PM

Do you have a reference for that?

You can try searching here: https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/ (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/). I'd suggest "oblivion war" as a search term.

Angels have free will. That's how they fall.