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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: EdgeOfDreams on April 04, 2012, 10:09:11 PM

Title: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on April 04, 2012, 10:09:11 PM

So, I've got a little bit of a problem - I'm a min/maxer, an optimizer, a rules hound who loves to squeeze that last +1 out of build that takes it from "good" to "awesome". When I'm a player, of course, that's not a big deal - in fact, it's somewhat encouraged.

But now I'm the GM. And the players I've got just aren't optimizers.

What I've found myself doing, then, when building NPCs as allies or opposition for my players, is build something close to a PC, then nerfing it a little. I'll give them a stunt I'd normally consider too situational, or a broader skill pyramid instead of having their combat skills pushed to the peak. In fact, I get to play sub-optimal builds this way that I'd normally never get to (by-the-book Breath Weapon users, for example) which can actually be kind of fun.

Does any one else take this approach to NPC building? What's your tactic for making sure your NPCs don't blow the PCs out of the water?

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Anher on April 04, 2012, 11:05:14 PM

For me it really depends on the NPC in question. If it's a Troll Bruiser, then I don't feel bad focusing them around combat, or if it's a socialite then I don't feel bad optimizing them for social conflicts. Having said that I hope my players realize that taking on the optimized baddie in their area of expertise solo or even with a group that isn't prepared for the arena (after a first encounter) to know full well what they're getting into. Which means the players need to figure out a way to either get around the obstacle or deal with them somewhere where the players have an advantage, i.e. social combat for the troll or physical combat for the socialite, which tends to mitigate the problem.

However, for mooks, I don't stat them out all the way since they're mostly just there as scene dressing.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: devonapple on April 04, 2012, 11:24:56 PM

The books give some excellent guidance on how detailed to get with an NPC based on their narrative role.

One should avoid obligating the players to play "Summon Bigger Fish" (at least, not all the time), which is to say, to bypass one threat by hiring or diverting them with an even bigger threat: one genre example would be always having to take recruit a Sidhe Lord (and incur Debt) to fight supernatural baddies (though eventually, that game will be about what this Sidhe Lord is going to get them to do in exchange for all of this help).

One should also avoid having a GM's pet NPC who is better than the players at everything and always wins.

But generally, you have the freedom to make powerful, relatively optimized NPCs so long as they are filling a story purpose, and that the players have some reasonable way to eventually confront, recruit or bypass the NPC, in line with the unfolding story.

Edit: although, in the vein of "nerfing" the NPC, making sure they have compellable Aspects which lead them to take risks or make errors is certainly a good start, even if you are otherwise making their builds in an optimal manner.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Mr. Death on April 05, 2012, 12:53:54 AM

Generally, when I want to make an NPC to go up against the PCs, I look at the PCs' stats and, depending on the level of challenge, put their combating stats either par, just under, or just over the PCs' stats.

Mooks I'll put their main stat that they're going to oppose the PCs with at about 2 steps lower. If I want a group of mooks to be a real, significant challenge, I put'em one step lower and have them do maneuvers and such. For main antagonists, equal or one step higher, etc.

I find manipulating the relative skill levels a much better way to scale NPC challenge than just the Refresh rating.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 05, 2012, 12:46:25 PM

one thing I havent seen is, make a Low Level Character, like 1 or 2 stress boxes

now throw a 100 at them, I mean it. 100 NPCs. Make them Zombie Children or something.  I've seen too many games which just turn into, Everyone pile on Godzilla.

Whats more fun is if you make a little Graph or something, bring a 100 Lego Men, and show your characters how &#*$% they are.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Vargo Teras on April 05, 2012, 01:34:49 PM

Quote from: fantazero on April 05, 2012, 12:46:25 PM

one thing I havent seen is, make a Low Level Character, like 1 or 2 stress boxes

now throw a 100 at them, I mean it. 100 NPCs. Make them Zombie Children or something.  I've seen too many games which just turn into, Everyone pile on Godzilla.

Whats more fun is if you make a little Graph or something, bring a 100 Lego Men, and show your characters how &#*$% they are.

Evocations can sweep large numbers of weak targets very easily.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: computerking on April 05, 2012, 03:53:19 PM

Quote from: Vargo Teras on April 05, 2012, 01:34:49 PM

Evocations can sweep large numbers of weak targets very easily.

That's why you start off with 1 or 2 of them, then start doubling. When the Wizards are down to 1 mental stress before consequences, they better start thinking and stop zapping at-will.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: pokken on April 05, 2012, 04:26:30 PM

Off-topic a little but my tendency with "there are 1000 zombies!" is to make it an aspect that I invoke for effect (usually something like 'everyone suffers a level X attack of some sort') until they counteract it with the appropriate skill challenges or something. Seems more cinematic to me than tracking the exact number of zombies and stress boxes and all that.

Regarding NPCs, I don't feel any compulsion to make fully populated skill pyramids for NPCs. Usually I just pick out the few skills they need and hand-waive the rest until they come up. Aspects are the most important part of NPCs for me and so I focus on that. If they've got a bunch of powers I tend to note the important ones, and if I feel they should have a particular stunt I'll note it and stick with it.

Sometimes I'll do something like "weapons 5, athletics 4, everything else assumed to be 2, roll out!" if I need to short hand something.

Seems like I wind up with maybe a handful of fully statted NPCs at best.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 05, 2012, 10:04:37 PM

I'm not an expert or anything

Here's how I would do it
From easiest to hardest
Mook
Henchmen
Bad Guys Lt.
Main Bad Guy
Demi God
God

Sometimes its cool to run across Badguy with couple of Lts and a bunch of Henchmen
Or just 3 Lts
Or Main Bad guy

I rarely see Dozens of Mooks and Henchmen

Whats more interesting

A Slug FIght between Batman and Superman
or
Batman single handily stops a prison riot 

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Harboe on April 05, 2012, 10:20:11 PM

To the OP: I match the level of optimization my players do for challenging encounters and don't bother for regular ones. I'm a big fan of the "Tucker's Kobolds" style of enemy design.

---

As for the horde of 1000 zombies?

Zombie Horde
High Aspect: Shambling Zombie Horde
Other Aspects: All I Want Is To Eat Your Brains, "For Each Of Us You Cut Down...," Here It Comes, the Sound of Drums.

(click to show/hide)

Stress:
Physical: OOOO(OOOO); armour: 2
Social: N/A; Mindless.
Mental: N/A; Utterly controlled by Necromancer.

Skills:
Superb (+5): Might
Great (+4): Endurance, Fists.
Good (+3): Athletics, Weapons.

Powers:
Grabbing Hands [-1]; as Wall of Death, but for Fists.
Living Dead [-1]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch: Magic [+2]
Wall of Death [-1]

Refresh: -5

How: Add an appropriate number to challenge the group.
Tactics:
Offense: Establishing a Might-based grapple and invoking "All I Want..." in later exchanges to improve a Fist-based attack would seem appropriate. If armed, gain Weapon: 1 or Weapon: 2, but suffer from loss of accuracy.
Defense: When hit, using "For Each of Us..." to soak will make you last longer. It's not so much that you're quick dodgers, more that whenever one of you falters a dozen others use the opportunity to fill the gap.
Last Ditch: When you're about to be destroyed, one last invocation should go to "Here It Comes" to bring your Necromancer master to the fight.

Saves me time on bookkeeping, keeps the fight rolling and keeps the players feeling awesome.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 06, 2012, 05:28:26 AM

I usually give full stats to NPCs. And I optimize their skills shamelessly. But since most NPCs have essentially an infinite amount of Refresh, I feel no impulse to optimize their powers. Which means that they usually don't end up all that strong.

PS: That zombie horde is ludicrously underpowered. A single zombie has Inhuman Speed and Strength. This horde has no Speed and no Strength. The lack of Strength is especially bad, since a big group of zombies ought to A) do a lot of damage, B) grapple really well, and C) be able to carry a lot of weight. Also, even an area attack shouldn't reduce zombie toughness below Inhuman because that's what a single zombie has. Finally, a thousand zombies is a lot. A single Feet In The Water character shouldn't be able to solo them without area attacks. But a single Feet In The Water character could take down that horde.

PPS: When statting zombie hordes, I suggest the Swarm Body, Extra Appendages, and Mindless custom powers.

PPPS: Welcome to the board, pokken.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Harboe on April 06, 2012, 08:45:19 PM

Eh, I was away from the books, so I just slapped it together. Add Inhuman Speed and Strength, if you want. And, by the way, this "horde-unit" isn't supposed to work alone. I wouldn't "field" them unless there were at least 4 groups and still, they would only be there to make things interesting until the Necromancer(s) show up.
They're basically swarm units by virtue of more stress track, a bit of armour and being able to split attacks.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2012, 03:58:47 AM

Here's my take on a zombie horde, for whatever it's worth.

Zombie Horde (Chest Deep)

High Concept: Horde Of Zombies
Other Aspects: All We Want Is To Eat Your Brains, "For Each Of Us You Cut Down...," Here It Comes, the Sound of Drums
Skills:
Superb: Fists, Might
Great: Weapons, Alertness
Good: Endurance, Athletics
Fair: Intimidation, Investigation
Average: Survival, Presence
Stunts:
No Pain No Gain (Endurance): One additional mild consequence.
Powers:
Mindless [-1]
Living Dead [-1]
Titanic Size [-4]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch (Unknown) [+0]
Swarm Body [-3]
Extra Appendages (Excellent Coordination x2) [-4]
Total Refresh Cost:
-26
Refresh Total:
-18

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 08, 2012, 02:42:40 PM

Stolen

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2012, 03:58:47 AM

Here's my take on a zombie horde, for whatever it's worth.

Zombie Horde (Chest Deep)

High Concept: Horde Of Zombies
Other Aspects: All We Want Is To Eat Your Brains, "For Each Of Us You Cut Down...," Here It Comes, the Sound of Drums
Skills:
Superb: Fists, Might
Great: Weapons, Alertness
Good: Endurance, Athletics
Fair: Intimidation, Investigation
Average: Survival, Presence
Stunts:
No Pain No Gain (Endurance): One additional mild consequence.
Powers:
Mindless [-1]
Living Dead [-1]
Titanic Size [-4]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch (Unknown) [+0]
Swarm Body [-3]
Extra Appendages (Excellent Coordination x2) [-4]
Total Refresh Cost:
-26
Refresh Total:
-18

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Silverblaze on April 08, 2012, 08:01:22 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2012, 03:58:47 AM

Here's my take on a zombie horde, for whatever it's worth.

Zombie Horde (Chest Deep)

High Concept: Horde Of Zombies
Other Aspects: All We Want Is To Eat Your Brains, "For Each Of Us You Cut Down...," Here It Comes, the Sound of Drums
Skills:
Superb: Fists, Might
Great: Weapons, Alertness
Good: Endurance, Athletics
Fair: Intimidation, Investigation
Average: Survival, Presence
Stunts:
No Pain No Gain (Endurance): One additional mild consequence.
Powers:
Mindless [-1]
Living Dead [-1]
Titanic Size [-4]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch (Unknown) [+0]
Swarm Body [-3]
Extra Appendages (Excellent Coordination x2) [-4]
Total Refresh Cost:
-26
Refresh Total:
-18

Works ok for mid to high level groups...what about low level groups.  This pretty much eats them no?

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 08, 2012, 11:26:51 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on April 08, 2012, 08:01:22 PM

Works ok for mid to high level groups...what about low level groups.  This pretty much eats them no?

Running away is always an option

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Silverblaze on April 09, 2012, 12:59:00 AM

Quote from: fantazero on April 08, 2012, 11:26:51 PM

Running away is always an option

So why use it?  The PC's can't fight it.  They get to fail at protecting people or all die.

That plot has fail written all over it.  PC's losing is fine, assumign they had some chance in the first place or if the opposition had some awesome plot related reason they interacted with it. 

"Zombies?  Yeah we lost to a horde of zombies.  I shot them in the head a million times but I couldn't hurt them.  Oh yeah and they were throwing cars around...."

That a story you want your players telling later?

I think not.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 09, 2012, 02:48:51 AM

It's a thousand zombies. It, like a dragon, is not an opponent for low-level groups.

Low-level groups can fight something else.

(Or they can just turn off the drumbeat. But in that case you aren't really using the horde as a character, you're using it as background.)

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: computerking on April 09, 2012, 01:26:41 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on April 09, 2012, 12:59:00 AM

So why use it?  The PC's can't fight it.  They get to fail at protecting people or all die.

That plot has fail written all over it.  PC's losing is fine, assumign they had some chance in the first place or if the opposition had some awesome plot related reason they interacted with it. 

"Zombies?  Yeah we lost to a horde of zombies.  I shot them in the head a million times but I couldn't hurt them.  Oh yeah and they were throwing cars around...."

That a story you want your players telling later?

I think not.

Facing an opponent that is unstoppable by direct force is supposed to result in the players thinking up another solution. Just because Sancta came up with stats for it doesn't mean that every level of characters will be able to defeat it. "If it has stats, we can kill it" doesn't apply here. If you're aiming for more of a horror angle, the characters freaking out over the innocents that they had to leave behind is perfectly in line with the theme.

Quote

"Zombies?  Yeah we lost to a horde of zombies.  I shot them in the head a million times but I couldn't hurt them.  Oh yeah and they were throwing cars around...."

Should be followed by:

Quote

"...And then we managed to lure them into that lake, by the power plant. Almost lost Bill in that raft, but he managed to get to the other side before we let the power lines fall in..."

Or something similar. The book does mention that some adversaries are better gotten around than gone through.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Silverblaze on April 09, 2012, 03:51:07 PM

Quote from: Silverblaze on April 08, 2012, 08:01:22 PM

Works ok for mid to high level groups...what about low level groups.  This pretty much eats them no?

Allow me to reitterate.

The point is this won't work for all situations.  A horde of zombies could also be represented in a much less deadly fashion.  That was my point.

Quote from: fantazero on April 05, 2012, 12:46:25 PM

one thing I havent seen is, make a Low Level Character, like 1 or 2 stress boxes

now throw a 100 at them, I mean it. 100 NPCs. Make them Zombie Children or something.  I've seen too many games which just turn into, Everyone pile on Godzilla.

Whats more fun is if you make a little Graph or something, bring a 100 Lego Men, and show your characters how &#*$% they are.

The superpowered horde of zombies does not represent this at all. 

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 09, 2012, 07:06:39 PM

okay 100 girl scouts from the never never
annnnnnnnd go

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 09, 2012, 11:19:56 PM

You can't fight a thousand zombies head-on unless you're pretty badass.

Objecting to high stats on a zombie horde is no more sensible than objecting to high stats on a Denarian.

PS: I actually think that I may have understatted the zombie horde. 1000 x 7 Refresh = 26 Refresh? And 1000 x Good skills = Superb skills? Seems a bit weak, really.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Mr. Death on April 09, 2012, 11:46:43 PM

Well, even with 1000 zombies, you're not going to be fighting or fought by 1000 zombies at any one time. There's only so many that are going to be able to reach you at once, after all.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 10, 2012, 12:06:35 AM

Quote from: Mr. Death on April 09, 2012, 11:46:43 PM

Well, even with 1000 zombies, you're not going to be fighting or fought by 1000 zombies at any one time. There's only so many that are going to be able to reach you at once, after all.

unless they form a zombie ultron

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: UmbraLux on April 10, 2012, 12:18:38 AM

I'd probably stat a thousand zombies up as a hazard.  Not something to be defeated so much as survived.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 10, 2012, 01:12:42 AM

That works too, although not in the same situations as the character-based approach.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: ways and means on April 11, 2012, 04:11:02 PM

A well built submerged combat character could beat a 1000 regular zombies with high level speed and strength powers alone (pickup a car throw a car move 2 zone along wince and repeat adnosium) any pc with wings could also beat that many zombies by just dropping rocks, it would just be the dullest fight scene imaginable.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Mr. Death on April 11, 2012, 04:13:06 PM

Only if the GM is extremely uncreative.

You'd run out of cars eventually, and there's nothing stopping Dresdenverse zombies from picking up objects and throwing them at the flier. Plus the flier has to go back down to the ground to drop rocks; plenty of opportunity to have his wings clipped.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 12, 2012, 02:28:37 AM

Quote from: Mr. Death on April 11, 2012, 04:13:06 PM

Only if the GM is extremely uncreative.

You'd run out of cars eventually, and there's nothing stopping Dresdenverse zombies from picking up objects and throwing them at the flier. Plus the flier has to go back down to the ground to drop rocks; plenty of opportunity to have his wings clipped.

*Clued In Police Sees man flying over zombie horde*
That guy must be the leader, get 'em! *shotguns

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: computerking on April 12, 2012, 04:04:05 PM

Quote from: fantazero on April 12, 2012, 02:28:37 AM

*Clued In Police

Or Zombie Videogamer

Quote from: fantazero on April 12, 2012, 02:28:37 AM

Sees man flying over zombie horde*
That guy must be the leader, get 'em! *shotguns

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: ways and means on April 12, 2012, 06:26:05 PM

Standard Dresden files Zombies only have Inhuman strength so no car flinging and the speedster will also likely have epic defense so only have a 1/12 chance of actually getting hit. 

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 13, 2012, 03:47:32 AM

I don't think that zombies are smart enough to throw rocks.

But who cares? There's a thousand of 'em. And attacking with weapon 1 rocks, you need to hit with 6 extra shifts for a take-out. Against Great defence.

You just can't kill that many with dropped rocks fast enough for it to matter.

As for the strong dude, he has a similar problem. Plus, I doubt he'd survive being mobbed.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: fantazero on April 13, 2012, 12:27:56 PM

I actually hate the Dresden Zombies, I like my Zombies easily killed with a headshot.

Nothing stopping people from making another kind of Zombie that doesnt need the drum beat.

Title: Re: Building NPCs - Like a PC, then nerf it?
Post by: Mr. Death on April 13, 2012, 12:31:19 PM

Indeed not. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30920.msg1311080.html#msg1311080)