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Messages - DragonFire

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1
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: New civil discussion section?
« on: November 10, 2009, 01:11:09 AM »
I think wariness on every posters part is a good thing. Yes it might be more fun to just post whatever pops into your head regardless of how bulling or insulting it is or how else other posters might perceive it, but that doesn’t make it right. I believe consideration of other posters should always be thought about before you hit the post button.
Whoa whoa whoa Back up the wagon there son.

I said I was more wary about posting, full stop, NOT that I was reconsidering content OR attacking other posters.

Let's not slop mud around here.

There is a vast difference between people posting and others feeling 'excluded' and people posting rude and insulting things.


2
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: New civil discussion section?
« on: November 09, 2009, 10:15:49 PM »
I think it's a lot better to put all those replies in one reply, personally. I do find the style of posting you're describing as having a quashing effect on lower-volume posters.  But that's my personal take, not a Policy Take.

But like I've said, I think the better move is to have thread by thread ground rules, rather than a big bludgeon of a policy.
Ok, thanks for that, Iago! :D

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Site Suggestions & Support / Re: New civil discussion section?
« on: November 09, 2009, 10:01:23 PM »
Be careful when you say that.  The very small minority could be the two or three vocal people who are dominating a discussion thread with disproportionately excessive posting.  No guarantee it ain't you who's wanting the special treatment, in other words.
Ok, here's a question, what's disproportionately excessive posting?

I got up about an hour ago, checked the forums and went through a few pages on the "I hate Susan thread' and I responded to a couple of different points made by different people.

So, yes, I made a large batch posting.
Is that disproportionately excessive?

It's probably worth noting that I'm now a lot more wary about posting in reply to someone who's replied to me, simply because I don't want to be accused of bullying or cutting off debate.  I don't like that feeling, it removes a lot of the fun of the forums for me, when I have to double check I haven't post TOO much in a given thread, lest I be considered to be drowning out others.

I don't have any problem with someone starting a new thread and proposing certain "ground rules" for the thread, e.g., "Please avoid posting more than twice in a row in this thread. We're looking to let multiple people weigh in.  Further, if any one page on this thread features the same two posters going back and forth, maybe it's time for both of those people to take a break." Or something like that.

If you don't like the ground rules that get set in a thread, start another one with different rules.
Of course I'll follow any ground rules set for a thread, or start my own, but it just seems like people keep making threads on this issue in an attempt to get the rules changed.

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Site Suggestions & Support / Re: New civil discussion section?
« on: November 09, 2009, 09:45:38 PM »
When I look at a thread and see 50% of it is by two posters, (for an example, look at the last 100 posts of the I Hate Susan thread. I don't see how "no no no no no" is any different than "irrelevant."  Plus, it is only vaguely about Susan at this point.) that is pontificating or lecturing, imho, not discussion.     So, as iago suggested, I am going to try to start over and see if we can do not only civil (which can honestly be cold and unwelcoming, no matter how civil it is) but genial.
One person expressing an idea and another responding to that isn't a discussion?
I'd be curious to know what constitutes a discussion for you, then.

This seems to be an issue that is affecting only a very small minority of posters.

I agree with Neurovore and Heretic, nothing , at least in the I Hate Susan thread mentioned, is over line in terms of either civility or tone.

5
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 05, 2009, 07:53:44 AM »
Wow, this got vicious quickly.

I think I'm out of this discussion.

6
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 05, 2009, 01:03:05 AM »
I was going to let this go, but it's bugged me since I read it.  That is not paraphrasing what I said at all, that's taking what I said and flipping it 1800.  My whole point was if you don't want to stand in the corner at a party you have to jump into other peoples discussions.  And unless you are starting a thread you are going to have to jump in somewhere.  Never did I mean, or want it to sound like I was saying, that you should stand in the corner or start a new thread if you don't like it. 
I was, as well...but I'm curious.

If the reader want's to be part of the conversation, surely the onus is on them to join it...not on everyone else to stop talking until they (the reader) starts.
LIkewise, should we all stop posting on a topic, to let everyone else start?


7
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 11:29:51 PM »
So the theory would be that in and of itself, multi-posting isn't an issue.  But if the multi-posting (or any other action) seems to be locking down a discussion or otherwise bullying, it should be reported. 
That's the way I see it.

I'm not saying all the onus should be on the poster.  But it seemed like the discussion was tending toward all the onus being on the reader.  I believe there is a balance between the two. 
Yeah...I agree that the poster has some duty here...it's the level of it, I think we disagree on.
If post three times, in succession, in one thread, and that makes someone else feel excluded...how am I to know?
More to the point, what am I supposed to do?
Not post my thoughts into the discussion because someone else will then not want to post theirs?
Why am I responsible for them?

Now, if I post 3 times, in response to the same post...then I do think there is a bullying angle that needs to be investigated.

If the individual is feeling uncomfortable because of something that is bullying behavior, then it's not just a personal issue.
The question of whether it is bullying or not is completely subjective, however.
And Aine's issue was that she felt rude 'interrupting',....not that she felt bullied out.
That's why I said it seems like a personal issue to me.

8
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 11:08:56 PM »
From what I can tell, it's not a concern about someone being a chatterbox; it's about people using what could be considered 'bullying' techniques in order to steer a discussion the way they want to see it go.

I'm not saying that people are doing it deliberately, I'm just saying that it can be interpreted that way.
I guess, for me, I don't want someone to report me, because they are feeling like they can't join the discussion.
That's not(or shouldn't be, in my opinion) on me...it's on them.

I think there is a clear difference between someone consistently posting on a topic, and someone attempting to lock down a discussion on here.
I've seen the latter....and reported it, not for the multi posting, but for the bullying behaviour.


All fair points.  I'm just saying that it's reasonable to ask that people stop and consider what they're doing - not just their intent, but how it may be perceived.  Again, I'm not trying to say that people should 'never' multi-post or mega-post... just consider the state of the discussion and how those actions may (unintentionally, perhaps) fuel emotions.
We can't look at things from everyone perspective, however.
I've seen, during my time on here, comments I meant innocently, and even things where I said, straight out "This is my opinion" or "Well, in my view" be mis- or re-interpreted negatively.

I think we need to be careful not to put too much onus on the poster for the readers interpretation...otherwise we'll never post anything more interesting than 'Nice day today'.


I don't think the points are mutually exclusive...

How so?

9
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 10:56:18 PM »
Not a clue, calling in the mods for a chattebox has never even crossed my mind.
WEll, it what confused me....at the beginning of the thread, the question was, 'is it a reportable offence', but later, the thread starter said that they felt uncomfortable joining in when the discussion was between 3 or 4 people, who were multiposting.

That distinction, to me, makes it a personal issue, rather than one with multi-posting.
(And I just did a multi-post)

10
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 10:54:23 PM »
In terms of multi-posting in general, where I've seen it become an issue is when a thread is really active.  You post one thought, and I start to respond, only to find when I hit "post" that you've posted another thought, which I now want to respond to as well.  It can inhibit 'conversation' that way... I hold off on responding until I think you've completed your thoughts.

Perhaps is not intentional, and perhaps some of us are just not as assertive in our approach.  Either way, it seems reasonable not to put the onus solely on those that feel excluded when multiposting is occurring... if you're in a situation where you're about to multi-post, consider whether it's a time when you can simply modify the existing post.
The only time I think modifying a post is feasible is if no one has yet responded to it....there is no notification taht you've modified a post, so people are likely to miss your mods.

That, and sometimes modifying a post gets an accusation of 'rewriting what you said', which is never fun.


The issue I've seen with this, is that if you post while reading instead of waiting until you catch up, you don't know what else has been said about a particular subject or question.  You may end up multi-posting even when you're addressing a single topic or poster.

Sometimes, yes, that happens.
And like I said above, when I do it, it's to make a clear deliniation of arguments.
For instance, I might respond to Neurovore 3 times, but it's 3 posts on three different points, and done that way so each argument is distinct, rather than looking like it's one contiguous blob.

Also, it lets the person being addressed (or anyone wanting to join in) address only that point, without having to trim a massive post down.

11
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 10:38:17 PM »
Don't ask me, I was agreeing that it's not meant to lock people out, it just happens. ;)


I was just asking generally, since we seemed to have a bit of a discussion going.

12
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 10:07:32 PM »
But if you don't want to stand in the corner by yourself all night that's what you have to do.  Unless someone starts a thread brand new, you kinda have to just jump right in there if you want to be part of the discussion.
And that does mean that people aren't intending to be exclusionary...you simply aren't comfortable posting.

IN that sense, how would reporting them help??

13
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 09:52:19 PM »
If you have a bunch of individual conversations going on, it seems to me, that it *excludes* everyone who is not already involved in that conversation.  I wouldn't just randomly start going up to people at a party and listen in and interrupt their conversation.  That's what I mean by "exclusionary," to people who might otherwise want to join in or discuss a topic.
IF you want to post, post.
By this logic...a 10 page thread is exclusionary, because it's interrupting to post on it then.

The beauty of a forum is that it's not 'interrupting' to post on it, regardless if 2 or more people are having a back and forth.

 

Perhaps it is just the overall /aura/ of some of the Spoilers threads that makes it seem that way and it /is/ just my perception, but how is this any different that what already happens now? 
 
How do you mean?

14
Site Suggestions & Support / Re: What is the deal with multi-posting?
« on: November 04, 2009, 09:27:44 PM »
I've been guilty of multi posting lately, but it's not an attempt to drown out others.
Given the time difference between me and a lot of posters, I will re-enter a thread to find 4 or 5 pages of discussion has gone on.
I tend to reply to posts as I read them, rather than at the end, so I might post 3 or 5 responses, to different people, on different parts of the arguement.

Sometimes, you don't WANT to write a monster post out to 3 different people, or you want to clearly seperate or delineate your ideas, so you post it in seperate chunks.
If no one else posts in between, you get a multi post.

On my side, at least, it's not intended to be malicious.

15
Author Craft / Re: Writing from a different gender perspective
« on: October 15, 2009, 08:56:15 PM »
I can see how you'd think that.  But as a woman who is in an environment where chauvanism and "southern gentleness" are interchangable, the world RJ's women get to live is friggin' fun to visit. 
Really?
You WANT to be like that?
You want to be as closeminded and gender biased as the men who treat you that way?
Cause, in my opinion, that's what RJ's women are like.
Look at the scene in CoS, where Nyn and Elayne have to apologise to Mat, about the way they treated him in the Stone, when he busted them out.
Nyn throws a tantrum worthy of a freaking child to avoid apologising to a man....she hates apologising to women, too, but she does it without the massive display when she's forced to it.

The constant belittling of men, the constant anger when a man does anything that may possibly be misinterpreted(and consistently is) and then berating the men who actually do show up to pull their asses off the fire when they can't do it themselves.

And that's 'fun to visit'??

Like I said earlier, people are people, they're good AND bad.  And power, in reality, is always abused, even by people who don't do it with bad intentions. 
Agreed....but an entire gender all doing the same thing?
Come on...that's just not likely, is it?

I'd say that Jordan is the only writer I've read who truly created his world so that females are the stronger sex or at the least equals.
The females are 'stronger' only becasue the males can no longer channel....what they should be, what he set his world up to be, is equals...each contributing something different to society.

  They may feel entitled, but I have yet to meet a man who doesn't also think so.
Hey, let's not bring the real world into a discussion of a fictional world...cause I can give plenty of examples of abusive, entitled women in the real world too.
We were talking about how RJ portrayed women, NOT what men do in the real world.

  May be my geographical location has something to do with that, or it may be generational.  Either way....  I honestly think that your complaints of women are directly relatable to my current complaints with our pseudo-gender-equal-society males.
fictional women.
In  a fiction book.
NOT real world.


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