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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: toodeep on November 16, 2018, 09:02:57 PM
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Why was Harry able to hurt Nicodemus in Skingame? He hit him a few times and for quite some time afterward we see Nicodemus favoring his side, having a hitch in his movement because of the blows from Harry, etc. All the way into the scene where he locks Harry into the bank behind him he is still injured.
But Nicodemus is still wearing the noose and we've seen him recover from bullet wounds in front of our eyes (and apparently not be bothered by them as they occur, as he can roll his eyes and make a "get on with it" gesture while being shot!) so why did Harry's blows bother him so much?
I can't think of any reason and it seems like a real inconsistency.
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It's possible that being in Hades interfered with his normal immunity.
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Whenever there is a problem; blame Mab.
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Perhaps bone takes longer for the noose to heal than soft tissue, and a massive bludgeoning is going to do more bone damage than some bullets. Also possibly magical ice hurts more than non-magical bullets.
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Perhaps bone takes longer for the noose to heal than soft tissue, and a massive bludgeoning is going to do more bone damage than some bullets. Also possibly magical ice hurts more than non-magical bullets.
Crush trauma can be quite nasty, yeah. I figure the environment in Hades' vault was probably a factor too though.
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Or perhaps being that close to objects like the Grail & the Shroud severely weakened Anduriel & the protection he is able to provide Nic.
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Or perhaps being that close to objects like the Grail & the Shroud severely weakened Anduriel & the protection he is able to provide Nic.
I like this theory. Another: the noose acts on lethal injuries or injuries that could kill eventually. Non-life-threatening injuries aren't covered, no matter how painful they are.
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Or perhaps being that close to objects like the Grail & the Shroud severely weakened Anduriel & the protection he is able to provide Nic.
I think the near-instant healing factor is entirely courtesy of the noose, not Anduriel. Rapid healing would be an application shape-shifting, like Tessa's ability to reassemble herself from her bug swarm form, but Andy isn't nearly that capable at shape shifting. Unless Nic had some reason not to want Andy to repair the damage from the noose that Harry left on his through - and he had every reason to want to keep up the appearance of industructability in front of his squires - it seems that was outright beyond Anduriel even given years to work on it.
I like this theory. Another: the noose acts on lethal injuries or injuries that could kill eventually. Non-life-threatening injuries aren't covered, no matter how painful they are.
Maaaaybe ... but it would have to be pretty darn intelligent to tell the difference between a wound that would mean slow death over a period of days to intervene after, vs. one where the bearer would survive but be left crippled. That kind of borderline outcome is a matter of odds rather than certainty even in a hospital.
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Here is another possibility - Harry specifically mentions a few times during the fight scene in Hades’ vault that he was fighting both Nic & Anduriel - meaning that each entity was fighting separate battles (Nic vs Michael & Anduriel be Harry). Couple this with the fact that the Swords basically remove any supernatural advantage an opponent has, and you have Nicodemus without any supernatural powers.
TLDR - Anduriel was too busy fighting to provide its supernatural cover for Nic, along with the fact that the Swords negate supernatural advantages
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Here is another possibility - Harry specifically mentions a few times during the fight scene in Hades’ vault that he was fighting both Nic & Anduriel - meaning that each entity was fighting separate battles (Nic vs Michael & Anduriel be Harry). Couple this with the fact that the Swords basically remove any supernatural advantage an opponent has, and you have Nicodemus without any supernatural powers.
TLDR - Anduriel was too busy fighting to provide its supernatural cover for Nic, along with the fact that the Swords negate supernatural advantages
That was my thought as well. I think Nic was healed by the time he got to Michael's house, but Anduriel was otherwise engaged during the fight itself to provide his normal levels of protection.
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I don't know that the Swords necessarily eliminate ALL supernatural advantages of their opponent. A Sword may cut through a supernaturally tough enemy, perhaps even parry a magical blow, but it doesn't stop a guy from being able to uproot a tree and hit you with it. The presence of a Sword didn't stop Nic from being able to fly after the train, for example.
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Here is another possibility - Harry specifically mentions a few times during the fight scene in Hades’ vault that he was fighting both Nic & Anduriel - meaning that each entity was fighting separate battles (Nic vs Michael & Anduriel be Harry). Couple this with the fact that the Swords basically remove any supernatural advantage an opponent has, and you have Nicodemus without any supernatural powers.
TLDR - Anduriel was too busy fighting to provide its supernatural cover for Nic, along with the fact that the Swords negate supernatural advantages
Except that Nic's invulnerability comes from the Noose, not Anduriel. There has always been a question about whether Nic can even be killed by the swords, since he has the noose; and the fallen angels definitely don't provide protection against the swords. My guess is the only way a sword could kill him would be a beheading where the noose comes off in the process. (which is more likely than it seems when you think of the "luck" the swords wielders can sometimes experience.
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If the Swords negated Nic's healing factor, I'm relatively certain that he would've been killed by a Knight at some point over the last two millennia.
To the OP: It's something that nagged at me, too, and I don't have an answer for it. The only thing I can come up with is that the fight took place over a much shorter time than you'd think from the way it was written, really only taking a few minutes (albeit over several dozen pages), and that Nic did indeed heal back up once he fled.
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If the Swords negated Nic's healing factor, I'm relatively certain that he would've been killed by a Knight at some point over the last two millennia.
I tend to agree, but one shouldn't underrate just how skilled a swordsman Nic is. Beyond just the centuries to practice over, he's also had the luxury of being able to fight anyone but the Knights and learn from his mistakes with no consequences beyond ruining his shirts.
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Funny idea, the Swords negate his healing, but the Noose doesn't let him die anyways. Nic is stuck with a non-fatal wound that never heals.
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The purpose of Judas' Noose was to keep Judas alive, not to ease his suffering. I still think the noose responds proportionately with the severity of the wound. It wouldn't heal a stubbed toe.
I wonder if the noose even heals. Or does it just keep the wearer from dying and Anduriel does the healing. Thus, when the Sword kept Anduriel at bay, he could heal Nic.
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The evidence that Nic is immune to injury is pretty slim - basically that one scene with the bullets. And if we had never heard of the Noose, the explanation for that scene would be some combination of "Fallen making him tough to hurt" and "Fallen Pain blocking" and "Showmanship because it causes FEAR and that is good for any Fallen"
Do not get me wrong. I am sure that the Noose protects him from dying and I am also sure that the Noose will heal all injuries received while the Noose is worn (except for injuries caused by the Noose). But healing is not instant. So in a battle measured in seconds, the healing is not enough to create a big factor. But you notice that given a little time (aka - after they both race to the Michal's house", Nic is a lot better.
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He stole the shroud which is supposed to have healing properties, he brought Harry in to go after the grail, what if he is sick like with cancer and it’s something the noose doesn’t protect him from?
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it states in the book why Dresden can hurt nicodemus Dresden figured out that the noose protected nicodemus from death but he could be hurt with the noose on … fatal stab in the chest not fatal but hurts. Dresden also realized also that the one object protecting nicodamids can be used to kill him. So Dresden after hurting him enough to slow him down grabs the noose and uses it to try and kill him by choking the life out of him.
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the reason nicodemus' noose can be used to kill him is because at the least, the one weapon it can't protect its wearer from death is itself. the swords are probably the other.
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Also remember this isn't nic showing off that he cant be hurt like in other books. He knows that harry can kill him and a panicked person isn't very good at showing confidence and strength. With the death of his daughter, the knowledge of how many bridges he burned in the magic community, the fact that marcone and mab got the better of him and that harry might kill him has him showing the wear and tear that he can usually hide
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Also remember this isn't nic showing off that he cant be hurt like in other books.
That sentence gives me a theory that would explain the difference. Lash taught Harry amazing techniques for ignoring pain. Nicodemus has had 2,000 years to master those techniques and his flinch response. Maybe he was just as vulnerable in book 5 as he was in book 15 by non-noose related injuries, but in book 5 he was just acting tough to scare his audience. By book 15, Harry knows his trick, whether he realizes it himself or not, and Nicodemus doesn't bother faking because he believes Dresden knows he's faking.
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There is ample opportunity to see how the coins work. They make the holder virtually immortal and resistant to damage, fast healing, but not invulnerable. But for all the other Denarians that means an alternate form. And Nic never shows one. He does nothing that a normal couldn't do. Except not die.