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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: cleoslemonade on July 15, 2020, 02:02:44 AM

Title: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: cleoslemonade on July 15, 2020, 02:02:44 AM
[This is a Peace Talks spoilers thread, proceed at your own risk :) ]

Rashid = Starborn. There's been a bunch of great threads talking about this idea, but I wanted to re-open it with the new info we got from Peace Talks.
What do you guys think?

So, there's a WOJ that Rashid killed Mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred. And he died ~738 AD. This puts Rashid's age at 1300+ (assuming no time travel shenanigans there).
So, 666 + 666 = 1332. That puts Rashid in a probable Starborn birth time.

If the big Starborn advantage is resisting dirt when dealing with outsiders, that would make him a perfect candidate for being the Gatekeeper. If you had someone in that position that got tainted by the outsiders, it would turn into a reality-ending liability real quick. So, they couldn't accept any non-Starborn applicants for that job (unless they were immune in some other way).

WOJ also that "Rashid was Harry last time around, and didn't enjoy it much." It clicks that this means that Rashid was the Fulcrum, the Starborn, the person who was in the right place at the right time.

River Shoulders offers to mentor Harry in Peace talks.
Then, he says,
Quote
“Lot of the wizards who matter are near the end. Hanging on hard.”
I tilted my head at him. “Why?”
“Not the right person, time, or place to tell you, starborn.”
I pursed my lips. “Six hundred and sixty-six years,” I said experimentally.
River’s craggy brows rose, itself a feat of superhuman strength. “Huh,” he said. “You learned some things.”
“I learned that,” I said.
“We pretty close to that time,” he said.
I would interpret this as, "Our current Starborn is about to die of old age so it's pretty close to that time when you need to be well trained to pick up the baton."
Rashid has been hanging on hard, through Nevernever time dilations (and who knows what else). He's got to be close to his end.

But what about the Starborn that was born 666 years ago?
Perhaps this is why things are so desperate in contemporary times. Maybe the Starborn from 666 years ago died young / went evil / etc, making him/her unable to take on the Gatekeeper/Fulcrum role, leaving Rashid to juggle things for much longer than he really could or should.

What are your thoughts? Any other clues here? What does this really mean in the bigger story?
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Grifter on July 15, 2020, 03:10:04 AM
I found it interesting that we saw the elder Senior Council members appearing... Elder. 

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Mira on July 15, 2020, 03:31:06 AM
I found it interesting that we saw the elder Senior Council members appearing... Elder. 

(click to show/hide)

I hope so, Rashid is one of my favorite characters.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Yuillegan on July 15, 2020, 04:31:28 AM
Good theory! Almost certainly true too. Although remember older Wizards get naturally better at resisting the effects of Outsiders. Eb even recovered faster than Harry. But I also think Rashid will be replaced. But not necessarily by Harry. It could well be Elaine after all. Or perhaps another unknown Starborn. It is certainly possible that more than one is out there.

Grifter - I definitely think it's all over for most of the Senior Council. Grifter is quite right in noticing their age - I agree it was deliberate of Jim. I suspect that they all will be replaced (something Rashid is likely aware of). The set-up as the young Wardens (Ramirez, Yoshimo etc) as replacements of a new "Senior" Council is possible due to an accelerated learning curve. At least in Harry's eyes. It's also obvious just from Ebeneezer they have a lot of learning to do in terms of magical skill (and he is the least subtle of the Senior Council, the most blunt).

Part of what will solve that is Harry's learning. Jim has been setting up Harry for additional education for some time now. I think initially he intended Listens-to-Wind to fill that role, but clearly River Shoulders is lined up the replacement. I also suspect a mentorship from Vadderung/Beowulf/Kringle/Whoever else he really is. He did train the original Merlin after all.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: BrainFireBob on July 15, 2020, 04:33:45 AM
My 2 cents, it was Kemmler.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: ClintACK on July 15, 2020, 04:51:06 AM
Sounds right.

The most recent starborn would have been in the mid-1300's, around the time of the Black Death and the creation of the Black Court. Completely random theory -- Mavra was the starborn of the 1300's, killed and turned by the first BCVs.

Also, notice that 3 x 666 years ago puts us right around the Crucifixion, from which the coins, the swords, and the "weapons" all spring.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 05:15:29 AM
My 2 cents, it was Kemmler.
The Kemmler Lucio met in the short story was too young I think so the time frame is off. He can not be a star born.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Yuillegan on July 15, 2020, 06:25:21 AM
Actually, Kemmler technically could be. Rashid is supposed to be about 1000 years old. In theory, another one would have been born around 1666. So it's possible. Remember Kemmler is also a body switcher so the age of his meat suit doesn't factor in.

I also think the Original Merlin Emrys was too. But that's much harder to tell as his birth date is all over the place.

Curiously, some other beings could be. Ancient Mai for one.

And a lot of interesting things happened in 1666. Just to correct you Clintack, mid 1600s. The Plague/The Black Death. The Great Fire of London. Almost certainly planned by Jim to be relevant.

And Clintack you are right about the Crucifixion, I think it's all connected. Outsiders, Hell, Heaven. The whole works. And plagues.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 07:29:22 AM
Actually, Kemmler technically could be. Rashid is supposed to be about 1000 years old. In theory, another one would have been born around 1666. So it's possible. Remember Kemmler is also a body switcher so the age of his meat suit doesn't factor in.

I also think the Original Merlin Emrys was too. But that's much harder to tell as his birth date is all over the place.

Curiously, some other beings could be. Ancient Mai for one.

And a lot of interesting things happened in 1666. Just to correct you Clintack, mid 1600s. The Plague/The Black Death. The Great Fire of London. Almost certainly planned by Jim to be relevant.

And Clintack you are right about the Crucifixion, I think it's all connected. Outsiders, Hell, Heaven. The whole works. And plagues.
It is not about his body age. I got the impression that in the short story Kemmler did not have his reputation yet and was still building up.

It was a relative small operation.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: whitelaughter on July 15, 2020, 09:50:56 AM
I would think that the wizards would aim for their children to be born as starborn. Fairly safe guess that Harry's mother crunched the numbers, and probably chose precisely the right spot on the globe to give birth to exactly the right sky.

I suspect most of the council are starborn.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: ClintACK on July 15, 2020, 10:28:33 AM
Yuillegan-

I'm counting back from the present. 2020-666=1354, about three years past the peak of the Black Death in Europe.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Arjan on July 15, 2020, 11:17:17 AM
I would think that the wizards would aim for their children to be born as starborn. Fairly safe guess that Harry's mother crunched the numbers, and probably chose precisely the right spot on the globe to give birth to exactly the right sky.

I suspect most of the council are starborn.
Not if it is only a short window once in a 666 year. Nobody waits that long for a child.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Yuillegan on July 15, 2020, 11:46:18 AM
Clintack, that's fair enough. Although Peace Talks isn't in 2020. I think it's still 2015 or something. Jim said something about it in a recent interview.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Grifter on July 15, 2020, 12:02:50 PM
Either way, it would be 1975-666.  So 1309, 643, 23 BC, 689 BC, etc, etc
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: ClintACK on July 15, 2020, 12:36:23 PM
@Grifter -- Yep. It depends whether you're looking at the year when the Starborns are born, or the years in which they are active adults, or the year of the Big Apocalyptic Thing that we've been ominously told is Coming Soon for Harry and for which the starborns are born.

Another random speculation -- could Nicodemus be starborn, from 23 BC or so?
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 15, 2020, 12:46:07 PM
“Clintack, that's fair enough. Although Peace Talks isn't in 2020. I think it's still 2015 or something. Jim said something about it in a recent interview.”

Quite true, in the Dresdenverse they will be probably be having the BAT in their version of 2020. This is merely the Pre -Apocalypse Duology, or PAD, it is 2015, and Obama is still President,  with all his Chicago connections.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Grifter on July 15, 2020, 10:14:57 PM
I think the Timeline hashed out that Storm Front was 2000, and Skin Game (14 years after SF) would be 2014, making PT and BG still 2014. 
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: cleoslemonade on July 16, 2020, 02:04:37 AM
I love "PAD." Let's totally use that term  :D
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Bad Alias on July 16, 2020, 08:38:13 PM
I found it interesting that we saw the elder Senior Council members appearing... Elder. 

(click to show/hide)
It'd be interesting to see one of the Senior Council members die of old age in a time of great violence.

@Grifter -- Yep. It depends whether you're looking at the year when the Starborns are born, or the years in which they are active adults, or the year of the Big Apocalyptic Thing that we've been ominously told is Coming Soon for Harry and for which the starborns are born.

Another random speculation -- could Nicodemus be starborn, from 23 BC or so?
I'd say we should start with the birth year because they weren't active before that.

The problem with Nicodemus as a starborn is that he doesn't appear to be a practioner.

I think the Timeline hashed out that Storm Front was 2000, and Skin Game (14 years after SF) would be 2014, making PT and BG still 2014.
From the semi-official timeline:
Quote
Smallpox aside, the timeline editor believes the most compelling data points to Storm Front taking place in 1999,
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Walter the skull on July 16, 2020, 08:56:34 PM
I think Rashid is a star born, and that star borns are a double edged sword.   

The council probably figured out that Harry was a star born pretty soon after he was captured.  Many of them still wanted to kill him.  Many still would be fine if he was dead.  My guess is that the council is like screw this Dresden guy, we've got our own star born.  Another possibility is that star borns can actually wield outsiders against people from our reality.  If Harry can bind them and banish them, why couldn't he have ordered them to go kill Marcone or something.  The council sees Harry as tainted, and a rogue star born is worse than no star born.

Either or both of the above could have played a part in the council's desire to off Harry.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Grifter on July 16, 2020, 09:17:08 PM
From the semi-official timeline:
I think that was the original guess, but it changed over time with new data points.  Later in the second post we have:
Quote from:
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,1592.msg28576.html#msg28576
 (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,1592.msg28576.html#msg28576)
0 ASF, March: Storm Front.  Harry is 25, according to Jim, and he's been wizarding professionally for two years.  We can reasonably place the year 0 in the timeline within a year or two of 2000, and there's a fair amount of evidence indicating that it could be 2000.

That's at least supported by the line in SF about it being past the dawn of the new millennium (although not definitive, since it was all written sometime later).  I think there were other things mentioned in the thread about years with full moons in certain dates and events corresponding to SF being in 2000, but I don't recall all the specifics.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: wardenferry419 on July 17, 2020, 01:29:23 AM
Either way, it would be 1975-666.  So 1309, 643, 23 BC, 689 BC, etc, etc
If Rashid is, possibly, the 643; and Nico is, possibly, the 23 B.C. Who in history, or fictional history, would be the Starborn around 1309?
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Grifter on July 17, 2020, 01:50:30 AM
If Rashid is, possibly, the 643; and Nico is, possibly, the 23 B.C. Who in history, or fictional history, would be the Starborn around 1309?
Kemmler seems unlikely to be that old, at least to me, but others like that idea. 

Maybe Abramelin the Mage?  He was born around that time but the exact dates seem to be in doubt. 

EDIT: I also like the idea of the Witch trials of that age being a plot to hunt and eliminate a female Starborn that the bad guys know exist but don't know her identity.  But that's a completely wild speculation. (Not the Salem witch trials, the ones like Alice Kyteler in 1324; she'd make an interesting possibility but it doesn't match her birth date and she'd be too old to be a Starborn of 1306)
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: ClintACK on July 17, 2020, 03:14:47 AM
If Rashid is, possibly, the 643; and Nico is, possibly, the 23 B.C. Who in history, or fictional history, would be the Starborn around 1309?

The Black Court was founded during the Black Death, in the late 1340's, when that Starborn would be in his or her late thirties. So, a few potentials: Drakul's scion (if scions are eligible, and not just full humans), possibly Kinkaid, and my favorite: Mavra, a human starborn wizard before she was turned.
Title: Re: PEACE TALKS SPOILERS Rashid/Starborn Theory
Post by: Bad Alias on July 17, 2020, 05:32:41 PM
I think that was the original guess, but it changed over time with new data points.  Later in the second post we have:
That's at least supported by the line in SF about it being past the dawn of the new millennium (although not definitive, since it was all written sometime later).  I think there were other things mentioned in the thread about years with full moons in certain dates and events corresponding to SF being in 2000, but I don't recall all the specifics.
I just always go with the version of the timeline available here: https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline (https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline). It's got stuff like the below on it, so we know it's being updated.
Quote
14 ASF: Job Placement, an Irwin Pounder-POV microfiction.

14 ASF, July: Peace Talks and Battle Ground

14 ASF, December 24th: Christmas Eve, a short story.
The timeline itself says 1999 is a best guess. My point in sharing was just that SF is 1999ish. Not that 2000 is wrong. More to reinforce that it's 2013-2015ish in PT. Almost certainly not today. There was one thing in PT to suggest it was later than it should be. I'm going to have to read it again to remember.

I know they killed men a lot too in the later witch trials. I assume it was the same in the earlier ones, so it could have just been a plot to eliminate a Starborn, regardless of gender.