@g33k
Presumably Alfred would’ve let Harry know that there had been a breach in the year Harry spent on DR before SG.

@Snark Knight
Good catch on the flamethrowers being used in 1961 at Kemmler’s last stand - it does make the Harry’s duel with Justin seem more final.
Also agree that Cowl’s quote about the wardens’ view of Harry in their first meet points more to Simon than Justin.
So do you also think Simon is the most likely candidate for Cowl?

@Yuillegan
Some interesting points for sure & I agree that when talking about powerful wizards, death doesn’t seem to be the end. Achilles absent, is Achilles still I suppose.

• My point about Simon creating the Cowl identity was that Cowl started operating out in the open after Simon’s death - before that he seemed to be even more shadowy.
• I don’t know if there is proof that Justin was that the shindig Maggie Sr & Lord Raith threw back in the 1960s, although I suspect he was in attendance as well.
  Separately what connections did Justin have in the vampire courts that we know of? I mean presumably he could’ve met some vampires when he was still Simon’s apprentice, but Simon is known to be the Council’s vampire expert. Cowl had intimate knowledge of White Court politics & high enough connections in the Red Court to be coordinating major attacks with them in their war on the Council (I’ll bet he was the one calling up Outsiders in many of these attacks).
• So while Harry does say that Eb is the heavyweight champion of the Council, it is pointed out that wizards gain power with age & Eb is likely the least powerful of the SC (I’m sure it’s meant in more ways than just 1:1 combat). Harry also does say on a couple of occasions that Langtry is the most powerful wizard alive.
• I definitely think Archangel was an inside job. It’s possible that as Simon’s apprentice, Justin would’ve known how he set up his wards & would’ve been able to get through (like Elaine does to Harry in SK), although Simon setting this up is equally likely
• I don’t know if I’d call Cowl under-powered or tactically deficient. Harry knows he can’t beat him 1:1 after their first meeting in DB so he doesn’t even bother trying after. Which of Cowl’s tactics didn’t you like?

About Justin as Cowl:

• I wouldn’t say Cowl is very interested in Harry. In fact we have never seen Cowl seek out Harry - their paths seem to cross every few years. In DB he does offer to take Harry as an apprentice but that’s about it (Grevane also makes this offer) - he’s actively pissed in WN that Madrigal deliberately involved Harry in the plot.
• To your point that Cowl was performing the Darkhallow as a last resort - I do think there is some truth to this, although it seems like the most insane way to resolve the situation
• Regarding Justin’s duel with Harry - it seems obvious that there was a lot more going on during the duel, but the question I haven’t been able to answer is what was the advantage to Justin in pulling this move?
  As a retiree of sorts he was off most people’s radar, which is how he raises Harry & Elaine for those years, so its not like Simon where he was a SC member. It also revealed Harry’s existence to the White Council, tarnished his own reputation & removed 2 Starborn out of his control completely (unless he’s made Elaine a fine thrall I suppose).

@AClone
What Red Court nobles did Simon’s death curse take out? Ortega was operational after the events of Archangel. There is also #C: Simon set off an explosion before pulling some necromantic shenanigans

@g33k
We know Harry believes this currently about Eb being the Council’s heavyweight champion, but that could change. Rashid & Langtry would come out on top I believe.
So Cowl doesn’t exactly hit Harry as hard as he can in their first meet in DB either - it was a test to see how strong Harry was.

@Bad Alias
Interesting - I had no idea of Simon’s backstory in the Paranet Papers, but it certainly makes him a more likely candidate for Cowl

@morriswalters
That’s an interesting notion - that there is no wall but rather a conjunction point where the Outside meets the DV & a Gate was built there.

Still, why a Gate? And the existence of a Gatekeeper implies (extremely restricted) through traffic.

@Yuillegan
Agreed, but my point is why build a Gate at that boundary instead of something as close to impenetrable as possible?

@Dina
That was the only realistic answer I could come up with - the Gates exist because in order for free will to really mean something, the Outside also needs to be a viable choice.

A couple of things:

I think Harry gave up the Coin to Forthill for many reasons but here are a couple of the most compelling given Harry’s character imo:

• One of themes in SmF is how Michael’s trust in Harry has been shaken because of Lasciel’s Coin. In order to complete making things right, Harry gives the Coin to the person Michael is most comfortable with having it. I mean Michael wouldn’t be fully convinced if Harry claimed to be rid of the shadow but kept the Coin as further temptation.
• Harry was already carrying the burden of being a Sword guardian in addition to his other responsibilities - I can see Harry not wanting to add to this burden by also having to guard a Coin when the Church provided a reasonable alternative - see what happened in DB with Cassius & Grevane

I also don’t think anyone could use mundane means to attack an active Knight’s family without a divine being getting involved.

I do think it was Lasciel who whispered the words in Harry’s ear - perhaps she didn’t need a conduit & like Lash leaving Harry with the ability to play guitar after her death, perhaps she also left those 7 words in there as well to automatically be whispered in Harry’s ear when he was most despairing like a psychic program of sorts.

@g33k

Thanks! So the reason I put the Ramp ascension into major players around 1000 AD is because that’s when the Mayan civilization was at it’s peak & I imagine that Kukulkan was the Red King’s most powerful mask. The Reds were definitely players before then too (having been around for 3000 years at that point), but entrenching themselves into the Mayan mythology is likely what catapaulted them to serious power.

So we know the Greeks were in charge of the Gates at some point prior to the Norse, & given what we know about mantles/ masks, it seems likely that Hades just took on the mask of Pluto Ares to Mars etc to become more palatable to the larger Roman Empire.

Hmm so the Egypt had been ruled by the Greeks (Ptolemaic dynasty) for a few centuries prior to 0 AD, not sure if there was much of an Egyptian religion left at that point.

Some thoughts:

One of the leitmotifs of the series is personal choice & living with the consequences of those actions. If Harry has to live with his, why shouldn’t Kim & Susan live with theirs?The arguments that say Harry is responsible for their deaths are like saying Michael is responsible for Harry picking up Lasciel’s Coin in DM because Harry was never warned specifically about Shadows....

Of course Harry feels guilty about the fates of Kim & Susan - he knows they were avoidable in hindsight, had he imposed his will on both of them & abrogated theirs - in Harry’s POV this would make him no better than a lot of tyrants (especially given his background with Justin etc.).

@Arjan
I think you’re really reaching there about Harry ‘abusing’ Kincaid in any sense of the word - Kincaid is not the type of person who puts up with abuse...

The main reason I imagine Harry used Kincaid instead of Lara for his suicide is likely because Kincaid is a paid assassin. He likely had no idea asking for this would create a rift between Ivy & Kincaid - I’m also sure that if Kincaid told Harry about Ivy being left completely alone if he took the assisted suicide contract, Harry would pick someone else.

Also the Archive has been known as the Oracle in the past - perhaps this is a calculated decision made by Ivy that will eventually benefit all.

@Avernite
C. Kincaid left without saying goodbye to Ivy because he doesn’t believe this is the end of their relationship

Well here’s how I see it - Bob can’t destroy anything he learnt from Kemmler that changed his views of how magic works, or really knowledge that Bob has used later - there are too many memories to destroy in these scenarios. However any knowledge gained from Kemmler that hasn’t been put to further use/ fundadementally change how Bob sees magic can safely be ‘deleted’.

@Kindler
I’ve been thinking a lot about Justin’s slide & will make a new thread about it soon.

One of the theories I’m seriously considering (especially in light of the new Morgan short story) is that Harry & Elaine were ‘marked by the Adversary at birth’. I think Justin found out that someone he was working with (likely Simon/ Cowl) was planning on Nfecting his Starborn foster-kids soon, so as a result he decides to enthrall them to keep them secretly loyal to him - IIRC he was creating fine thralls, not the brute force submission kind.

This would also explain why HWWB didn’t try to subdue or kill 16 yr old Harry - instead he was testing Harry to see if DuMorne did a good job in raising him (which the Walker wouldn’t need to do if it were regularly in contact with Justin). I suspect Simon sent HWWB after Harry.

A circle has no beginning or an end - sort of like a metaphor for the Outsider attack on reality.

My WAG is that a Circle of sorts has existed for centuries, with a fairly high member turnover every few generations. I would conjecture that a lot of the more powerful/ insane bad guys we’ve seen in the series so far have been members of different iterations of the Circle & are now at cross-purposes with each other.

Here are what I think the 3 most recent were:

• The Old Circle: Spearheaded by Kemmler, members included Lord Raith, Simon Petrovich (how Cowl comes to know Kemmler without being a disciple) amongst others. Outsiders gave Kemmler the knowledge he needed to stay alive & pull off a lot of his hoodoo. This group wanted to remake the mortal world (through World Wars) with humans being subservient to supernatural types. Big plays included removing the Black Court as players (showing the advantage of manipulating swathes of humans as well as remove those who take issue with necromancy) as well as 2 World Wars. Neutralized by Kemmler’s death in 1961.
• Boomer Circle: Spearheaded by Lord Raith, members included Maggie Sr, Ariana Ortega, Lea, Justin DuMorne, Nicodemus (how Lash knows of Harry’s Starborn potential) amongst others. Raith realizes that he must avoid Kemmler’s fate, so he strikes a deal with the Outsiders to give him immunity to magic, as well as knowledge. He comes up with Project Starborn (whom Raith believes he will control & will be his cat’s paws). The goal of this circle is a more .... equitable world order. The big play is supposed to Project Starborn, which ends when Maggie Sr leaves (perhaps Elaine is a child born of this project). This version of the Circle is neutralized with Raith’s impotence. Of course we know that at least 2 Starborn were born with Justin around to pick up the pieces.
• The current Circle: Spearheaded by Cowl (Simon), members include Peabody (recruited by Cowl), Vittorio Malvora, Madeline Raith, Paolo Ortega, Thorned Namshiel, Mavra (who is wary since a previous Circle basically made the Blamps extinct - this is why she goes against them in DB) etc. Realizing that knowledge & magical immunity are not enough, this time the Outsiders escalate the use of Nemesis in the conspiracy (I wonder if there are any characters who’ve been Nfected for decades/ centuries - most of the ones we see only seem to have been Nfected for a few years). The big play here is the Ramp war (& most of the case files). Still extant, although seemingly on the ropes.

So basically each Circle has Outsider sponsorship of some sort, with their level of intervention increasing with every iteration of the Circle. The goal of every Circle seems to be creating a new world order, however I’m pretty sure that the Outsiders would be able to suborn the new order fairly easily.