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Messages - Froklsnt

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31
DF Spoilers / Uriel's Second "Small Favor"
« on: September 28, 2017, 01:13:14 PM »
The end of Small Favor makes it clear that Uriel was allowed to give Harry soulfire because it balanced out the first large pentagram, the practice one used by the Denarians to capture Marcone. Lucifer's powering of the pentagram was offset by the gift, to maintain balance. The power Lucifer gave for the second pentagram can't have been part of that deal, because Harry punches out Namshiel with the soulfire hand right before the second pentagram goes up, and Uriel cannot act to balance that scale until after it happened.

So, how was the balance restored for that second pentagram? Is there another balancing action that has been taken by Uriel that we know of? It can't be Ghost Story, that was to balance the whisper from Lasciel's shadow. The only other possibility I can think of was when Michael prayed over Harry to restore his knowledge of his blasting rod, but that doesn't seem an even balance to me.

Do we have other candidates?

32
DF Spoilers / Re: bonies conception is in the book small favors
« on: September 28, 2017, 12:58:04 PM »
Fascinating idea, but I don't think it's the moment of conception, as Con stated above. Harry's guitar playing at the end of White Night is after Lash died, but clearly shows another presence in his head almost immediately after her death. But it seems safe to assume that Jim was deliberately foreshadowing, and that perhaps Bonnie helped put that idea into Harry's head, as a way to prepare him / make her presence known.

Actually, I think Id Harry is a better candidate for putting that thought in Harry's mind. Id Harry knows all about Bonnie, and it's well established that he's responsible for a lot of Harry's intuition. Even if conscious Harry didn't get it at the time, it was a good way to prime him.

33
DF Spoilers / Re: "Conjure by it at your own risk."
« on: September 28, 2017, 12:46:13 PM »
I'm not sure there would be specific consequences for summoning Dresden, other than a very pissed off Harry Dresden.  What I do think we've got here though is a Chekov's Gun, so I think the real question should be who's the fool who's will pull that trigger?  I've seen the idea on here before that it will be Time-Traveling Harry in Mirror Mirror. That's fun, how about some others?  Here, I'll start:  Mavra. She's probably the strongest black practitioner that we've met who's still "alive," besides Cowl.

34
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 27, 2017, 07:23:48 PM »
See, and what I'm picturing is the opposite.  I'm picturing that once they are sufficiently forgotten, they disappear out of the well.  Eventually leaving a depression where a new inmate could be place.

Fascinating idea. Could be. That theory would mean that everything in there right now, all 12 (or 13) hallways worth of beasties are still known on Earth. In that case, either the previous wardens were very busy adding inmates, or it takes geologic levels of time for these things to be "sufficiently forgotten."

35
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 27, 2017, 06:23:35 PM »
Well, sort of.  Those Naggloshii that are in the Well Came from another realm and were supposed to go back but decided to stay.  Would that be enough, after removing them from mortal memory to consign them?

I think that falls into the unanswered questions of how belief affects (semi)divine beings on the mortal plane.  Maybe if no one knew what it was, it would be powerless. Maybe it could pop out of the Well one day and simply go "Ahh! After ten thousand years I'm free! It's time to conquer Earth!" 

I don't think we've been given that information yet. My guess is that it would be weakened but still able to act. In that state, it could make itself known to mortals and begin fostering new beliefs about it, and rebuilding it's power, like Odin did. I think there's a WoJ about creatures inspiring new legends to regain their power.

36
DF Spoilers / Re: Which absent villian will appear in Peace Talks?
« on: September 27, 2017, 04:41:37 PM »
For story-telling reasons, it makes a lot more sense for the White Council and Winter to not be aligned. So many more options for making things hard on Harry that way.

37
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 27, 2017, 04:40:03 PM »
Not knowing for sure what the requirements are for any being to be consigned to oblivion, and by that I mean I don't know what kind of being is ABLE to be consigned.

CAN a Naggloshii be consigned, for example?

The Naggloshii that are on the mortal plane are already here, so Oblivion isn't an option for them. They don't need a mortal to allow their influence on this plane because they're already here, and can influence just fine themselves, thank you. A Naggloshii in the Nevernever, as a semi-divine being, is probably at risk for that, though.


There is a separate, unanswered question about how mortal belief affects non-mortal beings who are already here. I expect we will get a lot of answers to that in book 18, which Jim told the DF Podcast would be about washed up gods as pro-wrestlers.

38
DF Spoilers / Re: What does the Merlin want out of Peace Talks
« on: September 27, 2017, 04:33:19 PM »
I think it would be very interesting indeed if the Merlin had Harry as his ace in the hole.  That implies all sorts of changes in the council and the Merlin.   I would argue that up to this point the Merlin has never looked at Harry as anything more than a annoyance, a dangerous warlock or a lever to use against other senior council members.  The Merlin has certainly been petty with regards to Harry, he has not devoted much energy to opposing Harry beyond petty political games.  While the books are harry centric, the Merlin has shown no indication of being harry centric. 

Also, if the Merlin's plans involved Harry in some significant way, then the Merlin plans to disrupt the peace talks in some significant way.  The Merlin has always seen harry as a force of destruction/chaos/disruption.   If the Merlin sees benefit in Harry's involvement, then he wants the Peace talks disrupted.   Otherwise the Merlin's plans for Harry would all be about how to keep Harry away from the Peace Talks.   Why do you imagine the Merlin wants the talks to fail?

I think the argument for Harry being the Merlin's ace-in-the-hole is primarily Doylist. From Jim's perspective, the reason to build a book around a concept like a summit is to play with Harry's now divided loyalties. It's rich with compelling story options which force Harry to choose sides in uncomfortable ways that may have serious consequences. As for an in-universe rationale, Harry has been accruing power at an alarming rate. Remember, the last time we heard anything out of the Merlin was the beginning of Changes, before Harry's Winter Knighthood, before the fall of the Reds, and before Harry had any understanding of what it meant to take Demonreach as his sanctum. He's not the small fry he was last time we checked in with the WCW.

The peace talks are about resolving the war with the Red Court, Black Court and White court.  I agree with you that this war is effectively over, but it is NOT actually over.   The black and white courts were active participants in the war and they are not destroyed. 

I do agree that the primary focus of the peace talks themselves are the spoils/territory to be divided and managing the conflicts already happening as supernatural races fight over the spoils.  Simply ending the war would be fairly easy as the Black and Red would just keep what they got and return to the status quo.  It is all the red territory that is now up for grabs that is the problem -- especially as the White Council is not capable/willing of taking it for themselves and defend it against all comers -- and winter/summer do not want it.

The WCW's inability to defend all of this now-exposed territory is why I feel like the Merlin might be willing to trade away the safety of some portion of the vanilla mortals and lower talents for peace. The Merlin is nothing if not a cold, political pragmatist, a lot like Mab in that way. The Merlin needs time to rebuilt his ranks, and he needs safety for his membership first and foremost. They simply aren't strong enough to properly defend mankind right now, and everyone knows it. Best to retreat, cede some territory, and rebuilt their strength. And besides, that stance is a great way to put more tension between him and Harry right from the start, and Jim just loves that sort of thing.

39
DF Spoilers / Re: What does the Merlin want out of Peace Talks
« on: September 26, 2017, 03:43:18 PM »
The Fomor are signatories, that's established in the Marcone short story, "Even Hand." RobReece is correct that the meeting was called by the Fomor about the struggles over the Red's power vacuum. I also question the premise a bit here, I don't think its quite so binary. There could be up to 20 different parties at these talks (maybe more if we've never heard of them before), with wildly varying interests. While on some issues you might get a split down the middle, it's hard to imagine it would be the norm.

The 20 members, if you're curious (counts added by me for math's sake):
Quote from: Unseelie Accords, Dresden Files wikia
(1) The Archive (both an emissary and a Freeholding Lord)
(1, maybe) The Denarians - Nicodemus Archleone no longer a signatory as of Skin Game
(1) Donar Vadderung, CEO of Monoc Securities
(2) Both Faerie Courts
(1) John Marcone (the first non-supernatural to sign onto the Accords)
(7, but likely only 3 or 4 present) Vampire Courts
(1) The White Council
(1) The Svartalves
(1) Drakul
(1) A semi-immortal shapshifter guru in Ukraine
(2) Two Dragons
(1) The Fomor

As for the Merlin's agenda, I think wardenferry419 got the shape of the strategy dead-on:

The Merlin will have his public plan, his SC-arranged plan, and his ace-in-the-hole plan that involves Harry.

The Merlin doesn't seem to care much about vanilla mortals or even low-level talents, but he does care about not being noticed by mortal authorities. I bet he'd be will to sell the mortals down the river to a degree, as long as things calm down.

40
DF Spoilers / Re: Which absent villian will appear in Peace Talks?
« on: September 26, 2017, 03:18:39 PM »
I disagree that there will be just two clear factions plus the fence sitters. The known signatories of the Accords are:

Quote from: Unseelie Accords, Dresden Files wikia
The Archive (both an emissary and a Freeholding Lord)
The Denarians - Nicodemus Archleone no longer a signatory as of Skin Game
Donar Vadderung, CEO of Monoc Securities
Both Faerie Courts
John Marcone (the first non-supernatural to sign onto the Accords)
Vampire Courts
The White Council
The Svartalves
Drakul
A semi-immortal shapshifter guru in Ukraine
Two Dragons
The Fomor

We know the Fomor called this meeting. No one really likes like Fomor, expect maybe the BCV and some of the immortal creatures we've barely met, maybe. The Fae exiled them to begin with, they've pissed off the Svartalves (Bombshells), WCV and Marcone (Even Hand, Aftermath), and the WCW. I'm confident Vadderung and the Archive aren't fans. They've taken all of the Reds old territory, I'm sure they're just fine with that.

Now, if those are your battle lines, I see where you're coming from. But everyone on that large side has wildly different interests regarding everything else. I really don't see nice even factions developing, even if the Fomor are that polarizing.

41
DF Spoilers / Re: Starborn idea
« on: September 25, 2017, 06:39:26 PM »
If I remember correctly Harry's pentagram belonged to Margaret, or so he keeps saying..  It is one of the few physical things supposedly handed down to him from her.  But then again Thomas also wears a pentagram identical to the one Harry wears, well not quite, his now has a road map gem of the Ways in it.  So she must have had them made for her boys..  As far as we know, Thomas isn't starborn and Margaret wasn't starborn, yet they wear and wore a pentagram.

The people who wear a pentacle in the series to date are Harry, Margaret, Thomas, and Elaine. Harry wears it both because it was his mother's, and because he believes in what it represents, thanks to his grandfather: Magic confined within a circle of human will. Given what we know about Margaret,  it seems likely that she wore it for reasons similar to Harry, because it was what she believed. Thomas pretty much wears it only because it is a gift from his mother. He even goes into how he doesn't see magic the way Harry does, in Back Up. And we have no insight into why Elaine wears it, but I think she was wearing it back at Justin's as well. We know so little about her past, or her current way of thinking, that it becomes hard to assign motives there.

42
DF Spoilers / Re: Why Attack Arctus Tor?
« on: September 25, 2017, 06:21:23 PM »
Therefore it's entirely possible that he's referring to ....
And their relentless pursuit of late fees.

No, anything but that!

More seriously though, I was just being cute before when I said Griffyn612's summary of "what stalks us all" reminded me of "Empty Night."  But as I think about it, I think that may be the honest correct answer, the summary of all the candidates proposed. "Empty night" is the favorite curse of the WCV, but it had one other very prominent appearance, on the lips of none other than Mother Summer:

Quote from: Cold Days - Chapter 32
"Ah, yes. I see," Mother Summer said. "So many new futures unwinding."
"Too many bright ones," Mother Winter said sullenly.
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
Mother Winter spit to one side.

This conversation was brought on by Harry learning of Nemesis. This change brought on the possibly many bright possible futures, and apparently was a blow against "empty night" coming to pass.  We also have this quote from Mab, in CH:

Quote from: Changes - Chapter 30
"I am Mab. The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word."

It isn't a big leap to say that Mab has given her word to protect our reality from Outsiders. The consequence of failing that, an Outsider invasion, would put out the stars in the sky, unmake our existence as we know it. That is the known goal of Nemesis, bringing on this "empty night." That phrase is shorthand for the horrible apocalypse that would befall us if Mab failed to keep her word and safeguard reality.

So, when Lea said  “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish." she means she thought she could prevent empty night all on her own. I had been playing with the idea that perhaps Lea attempted something more overtly pro-outsider, but I think I've been talked out of that. Nemesis doesn't seem to work that way, anyway. It seems more to encourage a being to take their desires further than is rational, and to allow them to overcome foundational rules, such as a fae lying. Lea has shown several times that she has the impulse to try and overcome Mab, to "take the lead." Their relationship is one of slightly mismatched rivals. She even goes into detail on the topic in GS:

Quote from: Ghost Story - Chapter 30
"In all of winter, I am second in power only to Mab. Which she has allowed because I have incurred with it proportionate obligation to her. She is my dearest enemy, but even I do not owe Mab so much..."
My godmother was what she was, a being of violence, deceit and a thirst for power... and believe me, if Lea had been the high priestess of murder, blood lust, scheming and manipulation, then Mab was the goddess my godmother worshiped. Come to think of it, that was probably an apt description of their relationship.

Lea's statement could be read that she tried to overcome Nemesis on her own. Or a simple overstepping of bounds, speaking out of turn or making a decision without consulting Mab first. It could also mean she interfered beyond her station in the war with the Outsiders. Maybe even an action that might have eventually led to Mab's ouster, similar to Maeve's goals.  But unlike Maeve, she became self-conscious of the change within herself, and recognized it as a problem, perhaps she even knew it was Nemesis. And so she went to Mab.

43
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 25, 2017, 04:32:57 PM »
Thank You Fro- (seriously?) Froklsnt

My handle is an old inside joke from a typo, I use it everywhere  :P

But yes I think the Fomor from their description of 'dark gods' from various pantheons, are that they are defeated gods who the Venatores may have had a hand in their downfall or at least lack of remembrance in humanity.

I think the Fomor may be non-mortal patrons or adherents to the deities and demons the Oblivion War is being fought against. They may even have knowledge on hand that, in the hands of mortals, could revive an enemy thought defeated by the Archive. They have been living apart from humanity for a loooong time. But, they can't be the actual entities the war is against, because they're here. They're on the mortal plane. The Oblivion War is explicitly about beings who are not in this world, because the tactic of making folks forget you exist only works if you then can't be summoned or invoked. While a being's power can certainly vary with the amount of faith mortals have in them, I don't think they can be "confined to oblivion" if they're already here.

44
DF Spoilers / Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« on: September 23, 2017, 12:04:39 PM »
It's quite clear looking at Harry's memories with Justin that he was trying to go with old-school indoctrination at first- which is kinda a waste of time if you're just gonna mind-jack them.

Something must have happened to accelerate his plans...

I agree, enthralling them doesn't square with the rest of his time with Harry. Given that he was a known associate of Margaret, I don't buy the "flipped a switch" reasoning. Something bumping up the time tables makes more sense. The fact that the HWWB ritual is on a clock strikes me as relevant.

45
DF Spoilers / Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« on: September 22, 2017, 05:26:37 PM »
Do you think given the theory that the Black Court were created in part from energy from The Outside, that the Archive had a direct hand in ordering Lara and the Ventores to get rid of them?

We know from the WoJ what the Archive's purpose and strategy is, and that she acts through the Venatores. We only have two examples of the Venatores, Lara and Thomas. Stoker's book is precisely the opposite of their usual M.O., which is very curious since it was Lara who got it published. This would seem contradictory to her role as Venatore, but there's an important distinction here.

The Oblivion War is against entities not on the mortal plane. It is against beings dwelling in the Nevernever (and maybe Outsiders? I don't think we have any info either way). It's purpose is not to combat entities already here, because the 'forgetting' tactic doesn't work. So the BCV simply wasn't within the scope of the Oblivion War.

Lara took the strategy she used as a Venatore and inverted it to combat an enemy on this side of reality. The Archive likely didn't have much to say on the matter one way or another, past maybe a smirk of seeing someone new figuring out that trick.

What makes for interesting thought experiments, as Con is suggesting, is to think through other examples where that tactic has been used in the DV, and test the waters to see if we can spot any other likely Vanatores.

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