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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tinfoil hat on January 23, 2024, 11:01:02 AM
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So starborn have to be sacrificed at the stars and stones right ? RIGHT
Think about it, Lea tells Harry to never let Mab bring him to the altar. And repeats it again in Changes. I don’t think that warning is about him becoming the Winter knight.
There is an old WOJ that Drakul is something inhuman stuffed in a human body. And he is a starborn. Hold that thought.
There is a theory going around that the Red King and Pa Wraith are also starborn. Evidence for this is a) for Pa Wraith the outsider protection thing he has. According to the theory he was a starborn of a previous cycle. Hence his expertise on starborn. He was sacrificed and came back with something extra. The defense thing he has.
As for the Red King his entire motif just gives outsider vibes. Lord of the outer night. Anyone?
Back to Dresden. In the BAT, the Winter Queen has to sacrifice a Starborn. To keep reality going. Hence she takes Harry to the altar and sacrifices him. The he comes back an immortal with something stuffed inside him. This would explain Mab’s advice from BG.
This can explain why Mab wants Harry to kill Molly. She won’t be able to kill Harry a second time this soon.
It also explains a lot of things such as why Harry keeps getting things that whisper in his head. First Lash and now the mantle. Its Uriel helping to prepare Harry for whats to come.
The question becomes whats going to come back with Harry.
But remember that just a Theory a Conspiracy Theory
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Hasn't Harry already come back? At the end of Changes when he was shot, he was mostly dead, very close to all dead.. He was already Winter Knight when he took that bullet through the heart, would have died then and there on the deck, but fell into the very cold lake before he bled out and into Mab's arms. Hmmm... Wonder if Uriel had anything to do with him stumbling over the side into the water after he was shot?
Yes, I agree, Uriel has had a lot to do with preparing Harry for what is to come. That was the whole point of the risky soul walk about, and Harry came back with a better understanding of what soul fire really is as we saw in Cold Days. He also learned how to keep the darker impulses of the Winter Knight mantle under control. However the White Council doesn't know any of this, they are asking the same question you are asking, except not what will come back with him if he dies again, but what came back with him this last time when he "died."
I think Mab's reasons for wanting Molly dead if she dies are a bit different. Mab is a control freak, and she feels that Molly isn't on the same page as she is.
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Hasn't Harry already come back? At the end of Changes when he was shot, he was mostly dead, very close to all dead.. He was already Winter Knight when he took that bullet through the heart, would have died then and there on the deck, but fell into the very cold lake before he bled out and into Mab's arms. Hmmm... Wonder if Uriel had anything to do with him stumbling over the side into the water after he was shot?
Yes, I agree, Uriel has had a lot to do with preparing Harry for what is to come. That was the whole point of the risky soul walk about, and Harry came back with a better understanding of what soul fire really is as we saw in Cold Days. He also learned how to keep the darker impulses of the Winter Knight mantle under control. However the White Council doesn't know any of this, they are asking the same question you are asking, except not what will come back with him if he dies again, but what came back with him this last time when he "died."
I think Mab's reasons for wanting Molly dead if she dies are a bit different. Mab is a control freak, and she feels that Molly isn't on the same page as she is.
The idea is that this time Mab/ the Winter Queen will sacrifice him in a ritual. And he dies as in D-E-D. Died. GONE and then comes back with an outsider inside his now immortal body.
In this case if Harry lets it take control he becomes a Monster with a Captail M for emphasis.
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The idea is that this time Mab/ the Winter Queen will sacrifice him in a ritual. And he dies as in D-E-D. Died. GONE and then comes back with an outsider inside his now immortal body.
In this case if Harry lets it take control he becomes a Monster with a Captail M for emphasis.
Only problem with that is Mab is fighting Outsiders. So why would she sacrifice Harry to have him come back possessed by an Outsider?
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Only problem with that is Mab is fighting Outsiders. So why would she sacrifice Harry to have him come back possessed by an Outsider?
Ah that the catch. Magic always has a price.
A starborn is sacrificed to keep the outsiders out but in exchange he/ she brings something back with him.
Plus dolist reason it would mess Harry up. Jim is that much of a bastard to do it
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Ah that the catch. Magic always has a price.
A starborn is sacrificed to keep the outsiders out but in exchange he/ she brings something back with him.
Plus dolist reason it would mess Harry up. Jim is that much of a bastard to do it
Somehow I don't think he'd do that to Harry, he has too many other ways..
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There is a theory going around that the Red King and Pa Wraith are also starborn.
"Going around..." where?
Haven't seen it here.
... Evidence for this is a) for Pa Wraith the outsider protection thing he has. According to the theory he was a starborn of a previous cycle. Hence his expertise on starborn. He was sacrificed and came back with something extra. The defense thing he has.
Pretty sure it's wrong for Raith Père -- think I read WoJ stating that he just this cycle became aware of the whole "Starborn cycle" / Outsider thing, & decided he wanted to become a power-player, acting-upon instead of acted-upon... that's why he has such a substantive library: he was educating himself.
... As for the Red King his entire motif just gives outsider vibes. Lord of the outer night. Anyone? ...
But it's not just the RK -- his inner circle was the "Lords of the Outer Night" (I call them LOONs)
That said, "Outsiders" and "Outer Night" may just be coincidental, or may not be -- I'm very suspicious of this, myself! I do tend to think there's a connection, though I'm not absolutely convinced of one.
We also have the WoJ that the LOONs got so powerful because they actually were able to capture (and addict to their venom) the beings that the Mayans had been worshiping as gods.
I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.
I think some long-ago Maya (or maybe Olmec... or even older) sorceror was exploring the deep Nevernever and got possessed -- or maybe summoned one, and got attacked/infected; thus becoming the Red King. IIRC WoJ says the Red King was about 6K years old...?
How all of that might play into an Outsider connection escapes me; maybe one (or both) of my theories is wrong, or maybe it's as simple as Ramp entities being every bit as susceptible to Outsider influence/possession as humans are...
... It also explains a lot of things such as why Harry keeps getting things that whisper in his head. First Lash and now the mantle. Its Uriel helping to prepare Harry for whats to come.
I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT: I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.
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I think Lash & the mantle are both training-up Harry's willpower, yes!
But we've already seen that many Outsiders use psychic attacks, I don't think we need to look for another "possession" in the BAT: I bet Harry has to face off against multiple psychic Outsider attacks at one time.
You touch on the main power that starborn Harry has over Outsiders I believe, he has been able to counter their psychic attacks on him to some extent. I think that ability will grow as the series goes on. That is the power he has over Outsiders that Lash was alluding to in White Night, and what Harry was remembering in Ghost Story, i.e. his sixteen year old self doing a Peewee Herman response to HWWB's attack.
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I think the Ramp's are creatures of the Nevernever, natively; I note several similarities in the descriptions of the native-form (without fleshmask) Ramps, and the Ick... and suspect them of being related entities.
It appears that after writing Storm Front Jim retconned the Red Court. In SF, Harry mentions that vampires are creatures of the Nevernever and that it takes most of their energy to simply maintain themselves on the mortal plane. I don’t remember if this was after Harry had his run-in with Bianca or if this bit of exposition occurred before that point in the story, but she was the only vampire we meet in SF, so Jim; through Harry, told us the Red Court are native to the Nevernever.
However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again. It really doesn’t make sense anyway. The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire. Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned. If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.
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However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again. It really doesn’t make sense anyway. The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire. Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned. If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.
Though it might explain why Lea was able to put to sleep Susan's vampire side, though only for a little bit.. Or I seem to remember her doing it and it gave Harry hope which she swiftly dashed.. My memory of this is vague though.
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So, the meta experience on this is vampire courts equivalent of seven sins. I fathom each court was brought in by their originator as a causality of choice in one of the 7(it's been theorized which would be which in the past here, can't remember all of them) mainly born from Jim picking an arbitrary number like 7 specifically for the courts but then only fleshing out the 3-4 major ones he had actual plans for.
So, sorta like demons they technically have a place in reality, though they have real bodies they are not actually welcome here. Bad housemates, Dresden evicted some for us lol.
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...However, this bit about vampires being native to the Nevernever has never been mentioned again. It really doesn’t make sense anyway. The Red Court were once humans who got half-turned until they killed someone and went full Rampire. Maybe whatever created the Red King was native to the Nevernever, but since that time all the members of the Red Court were humans that had been turned.
Cite, please? I don't recall this, at all -- that the Red Court was ever composed of half-turned.
The Red King and all the LOON's were full-Ramp, and AFAIK have been so for a long time -- long enough ago that they were well-established as rulers in Mesoamerica when Cortez arrived.
I recall WoJ that they got so powerful by somehow using their venom to addict entities previously worshipped as gods by mesoamericans, and drain that power to use for themselves.
... If a member of the Red Court could infect a non-human, we haven’t seen one or been told it was possible to do.
I don't recall this, either.
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Though it might explain why Lea was able to put to sleep Susan's vampire side, though only for a little bit.. Or I seem to remember her doing it and it gave Harry hope which she swiftly dashed.. My memory of this is vague though.
Harry got home to find Lea having put Susan and Martin to sleep, by way of sleeping their "Hunger spirits" (if I recall the phrase correctly).
Harry asked how she did it, and Lea indicated it was very rare & precious information, and offered to bargain for it... which immediately made Harry suspect he couldn't afford Lea's price.
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Harry got home to find Lea having put Susan and Martin to sleep, by way of sleeping their "Hunger spirits" (if I recall the phrase correctly).
Harry asked how she did it, and Lea indicated it was very rare & precious information, and offered to bargain for it... which immediately made Harry suspect he couldn't afford Lea's price.
That's more or less how I remember it, but the way I remember it was that it wasn't about Lea's price in a bargain, but that at best it was just a temporary thing, and not a cure.
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... the way I remember it was that it wasn't about Lea's price in a bargain, but that at best it was just a temporary thing, and not a cure.
From memory, Harry didn't advance his questioning (as to Lea's method) far enough to discern this, I think.
My memory, of course, could be faulty.
I believe Bob had asserted that there was no known way to do it (hence, being Harry's assistant as he researched, rather then tutor as he practiced).
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From memory, Harry didn't advance his questioning (as to Lea's method) far enough to discern this, I think.
My memory, of course, could be faulty.
I believe Bob had asserted that there was no known way to do it (hence, being Harry's assistant as he researched, rather then tutor as he practiced).
Do you remember which book? My problem is I vaguely remember the passage, but I am not sure which book it comes from. If I knew that, I could go back and read the passage and the context. I agree that Bob said there was no known way to cure the Susan and I seem to remember Lea admitting that what she did wasn't a cure when Harry pushed her on it.
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Do you remember which book? My problem is I vaguely remember the passage, but I am not sure which book it comes from. If I knew that, I could go back and read the passage and the context. I agree that Bob said there was no known way to cure the Susan and I seem to remember Lea admitting that what she did wasn't a cure when Harry pushed her on it.
Changes
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Cite, please? I don't recall this, at all -- that the Red Court was ever composed of half-turned.
The Red King and all the LOON's were full-Ramp, and AFAIK have been so for a long time -- long enough ago that they were well-established as rulers in Mesoamerica when Cortez arrived.
I recall WoJ that they got so powerful by somehow using their venom to addict entities previously worshipped as gods by mesoamericans, and drain that power to use for themselves.
I don't recall this, either.
It's quite simple, but perhaps I didn't state it clearly. Every member of the Red Court was at one time a human who was bitten by a full member of the Red Court who had authority to make new members. (Side note:) Apparently, Bianca didn't have permission or authority to do this until she was promoted in Grave Peril. I don't recall if it was Thomas or Justine who told Harry about her new ability or authority to create new members of the Red Court.
However, before becoming a full fledged Red Court vampire, each individual is only half-turned. You already know this from Susan's example. Some people who are bitten might make their first kill the night they were bitten while others hold out for years, decades or even centuries, like Martin. So, every member of the Red Court was once only half-turned until they made their first kill.
We don't know if the Red Court could infect a non-human with their bloodlust. We haven't been told if this was possible.
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However, before becoming a full fledged Red Court vampire, each individual is only half-turned. You already know this from Susan's example. Some people who are bitten might make their first kill the night they were bitten while others hold out for years, decades or even centuries, like Martin. So, every member of the Red Court was once only half-turned until they made their first kill.
I don't think it is that simple either as we saw in Grave Peril, RCVs can also apparently choose who they want to feed upon until they die, and those they want to half-turn. Bianca's secretary was not a vampire, nor was she half-turned, and apparently Bianca did sip her blood from time to time. The secretary apparently went along with it because whatever it is in RCV venom, she felt narcotic pleasure and so did Bianca.. However when Harry pissed Bianca off, forcing her to reveal herself in her full form, she lost control and fed on the secretary until she died, for which Bianca blamed Harry. At the party there were many young people whom the RCVs were grooming, when things went to hell many were killed outright and others like Susan were half-turned. Then it seems to come down to will, some join the resistance and others go on to kill and become full vampires.. I don't think that every RCV started out as human and was half turned, is there a word of Jim on this? Nor do I remember exactly where is says that her promotion gave Bianca "permission" to turn and half-turn humans... Or did her promotion merely give her authority to choose who she wanted to recruit and who she wanted merely as food? Another interesting point if I remember correctly from the party, one of the things that Harry and Michael discovered was that the wine was either drugged or poisoned, so many of the young recruits weren't even considered suitable as food.
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It's quite simple, but perhaps I didn't state it clearly. Every member of the Red Court ...
Ah, I see; TYVM!
To me, the phrase "Red Court" is a bit ambiguous: you might mean "any Rampire, or all collectively," but IMHO it largely implies "the Rampire leadership/nobility" (i.e. leaning in on the Court element). So I had understood you to have meant that the leadership once was composed of half-turned.
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Ah, I see; TYVM!
To me, the phrase "Red Court" is a bit ambiguous: you might mean "any Rampire, or all collectively," but IMHO it largely implies "the Rampire leadership/nobility" (i.e. leaning in on the Court element). So I had understood you to have meant that the leadership once was composed of half-turned.
But who half-turned them?
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... RCVs can also apparently choose who they want to feed upon until they die, and those they want to half-turn. Bianca's secretary was not a vampire, nor was she half-turned, and apparently Bianca did sip her blood from time to time. The secretary apparently went along with it because whatever it is in RCV venom, she felt narcotic pleasure and so did Bianca ...
Yes, Harry himself has experienced the narcotic pleasure of Rampire-venom (several times), and attests to the intense and immediate euphoria & loss of judgement.
Rampires -- at least the higher levels of them -- often had "harems" or "herds" from whom they eat lightly but widely, keeping them all addicted to the pleasure but seldom taking any of them to the half-Ramp stage, nor killing them.
... when things went to hell many were killed outright and others like Susan were half-turned. Then it seems to come down to will, some join the resistance and others go on to kill and become full vampires.
I think feeding-until-dead can be deliberate, or from loss-of-control. It's less clear what causes the "half-turned" phenomenon... does it have to be intentional? Does it happen automatically, unless suppressed? Etc.
What a newly-turned half-Ramp does with their status is highly-dependent on a bunch of different things.
People like Martin were longtime (human) servants of the Rampires, and were deliberately half-turned, then coached / supported / controlled through their initial bloodlust (eating lightly but not killing) until they could control it themselves. I think the Fellowship of St. Giles does something similar, for newly-turned who come under their influence.
Harry managed to coach Susan enough that she could hold it off, but she wasn't able to consume any blood to sate the hunger, so the urges were getting worse and worse. We don't know how Susan managed to get her hunger under control after the climactic battle in Grave Peril, before she left Chicago. It seems very likely to me that the Fellowship contacted her there in Chicago, in the aftermath of the Velvet Room burning down (they likely had Bianca's under surveillance, because of all the Red Court activity surrounding her elevation to the nobility; they might have picked up Susan's trail there). This is yet another open question in the series.
It's also very possible that -- in all the carnage after Bianca's battle with Harry -- Susan was able to sate the bloodlust from the freshly-dead, not have to actually perform a killing. That might have given her the time she needed.
... I don't think that every RCV started out as human and was half turned, is there a word of Jim on this? ...
That's just how it works:
A human has to get infected/implanted with a Ramp-spirit before they become a full Rampire. At that point, they're half-turned.
They may stay in that state indefinitely, or they can turn full-Ramp very soon; but AFAIK they always have that state of being half-turned: there's no way for a human to go from "just human" to "full Rampire" without -- at some point, however briefly -- being a half-turned who performs a killing.
I don't think we have WoJ on how short that half-Ramp stage can be, but I think a single day or so is likely (it might be something specific like "until the next nightfall" or the like, meaning that someone turned just before the deadline may be able to go full-Ramp in just minutes, while someone turned just after the deadline needs to wait almost 24 hours... but this is entirely speculative, I know of no canonical or WoJ info on the point).
... Nor do I remember exactly where is says that her promotion gave Bianca "permission" to turn and half-turn humans... Or did her promotion merely give her authority to choose who she wanted to recruit and who she wanted merely as food? ...
I think we infer quite a bit about Rampire political and power structures from bits & pieces here and there. I don't recall any specific canon/WoJ statements as to what Bianca's new powers would be, and thus don't know whether they were mostly "legalistic" permissions, or were extra Ramp-mojo magic/psychic stuff, or both.
...Another interesting point if I remember correctly from the party, one of the things that Harry and Michael discovered was that the wine was either drugged or poisoned, so many of the young recruits weren't even considered suitable as food.
It was a warning from Thomas: there was Rampire-venom in the drink.
Michael hadn't been drinking, I think; and Harry forced himself to throw it up.
I think the human servants & "party snacks" circulating at the party had been being recruited for some weeks -- maybe even months -- by Bianca, so she'd have a lavish offering at her ball. Plus of course her longtime servants, who I think were largely tasked with managing these new recruits. I think there was a mix of down-and-out homeless off the streets (meant largely as "just food" for indiscriminate eaters like Blampires) with "rebellious (but attractive) youth" from local colleges &c (for aesthetes like Whampires).
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But who half-turned them?
I am presuming the Red King was the first-ever Rampire, the Patient Zero of Rampirism.
He was, I presume, infected (half-turned) by one of those slimy, leathery, "batlike creatures" that the Rampires naturally are... but one who had never had a human host.
My working theory is that those beings come from the Nevernever (being related to the Ick). The Red King could have either summoned it to the mortal world, or encountered it in the Nevernever & come home infected (or even performed that First Kill there in the Nevernever, and come home as a full Rampire).
It's also possible the RK wasn't the first-ever, but that other early Rampires -- and any descendent lineages -- died out (or were killed-off in ancient Ramp-v-Ramp intertribal warfare).
I don't think anyone (any mortals) in the Dresdenverse knows those ancient details... wasn't the Red King multi-thousands of years old? And I don't think WoJ has ever gone that deep into those details. He may not even have decided them.
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I think feeding-until-dead can be deliberate, or from loss-of-control. It's less clear what causes the "half-turned" phenomenon... does it have to be intentional? Does it happen automatically, unless suppressed? Etc.
I think in the case of the half-turned it is a little bit of both. A good example of intentional is Susan, the impression I got from Bianca is that she did it deliberately as revenge for her secretary. Her thinking I supposed, knowing there was no cure that a half turned Susan would make Harry suffer for a very long time. However Justine was spared, was this simply because they hadn't had a chance to either feed upon her or half-turn her? Or since she was the girlfriend of Thomas they didn't want to risk pissing off the White Court? In other cases motives for half-turning a victim is less clear, especially when many go on to join the Fellowship of St. Giles which is an anti-RVC resistance group devoted to limiting the damage that the Red Court does. So why would they do that?
Harry managed to coach Susan enough that she could hold it off, but she wasn't able to consume any blood to sate the hunger, so the urges were getting worse and worse. We don't know how Susan managed to get her hunger under control after the climactic battle in Grave Peril, before she left Chicago. It seems very likely to me that the Fellowship contacted her there in Chicago, in the aftermath of the Velvet Room burning down (they likely had Bianca's under surveillance, because of all the Red Court activity surrounding her elevation to the nobility; they might have picked up Susan's trail there). This is yet another open question in the series.
I don't think Harry did anything to coach Susan in resistance to the venom. I think controlling hunger, emotions, impulses connected with newly born "super powers," i.e. strength, speed,and longevity take time to kick in. I agree that the Fellowship more than likely had Bianca under surveillance and perhaps even Harry as well, on the look out for the half-turned. I believe Harry was in the hospital for a bit, and during that time the Fellowship might have made contact with her, Yes, Susan was of Hispanic heritage, but I don't think it mere coincidence that she fled to Central American where the Red Court strongholds were and where the Fellowship is the most active.
Changes
Thanks, I reread the passage and it is very interesting from the standpoint of while mentally/emotionally he got excited about the prospect of Lea having a way to cure both Susan and Martin and possibly all the half-turned, he didn't leap to the prospect of agreeing to a bargain with her. Not I think because he didn't want to cure them and no doubt would give up a lot for a cure, but because he knew from her answer that she wasn't really offering a cure.. She said vaguely that such knowledge would really be a "treasure." She was willing to bargain "knowledge," but she wasn't specific as to what that knowledge was... The Fae cannot lie, but the reason why it is so dangerous to bargain with them is that they are willing to let you lie to yourself! She agreed that such knowledge was very valuable, but she never said what the knowledge was she had, or that she had any knowledge beyond putting them asleep. Harry had already spent a year searching for a cure, Bob had told him there was none. While putting a RCV or half-turned RCV to sleep was useful, it wasn't all that useful and Harry realized that. On the subject of bargains it is also interesting as to how much Lea really did do to keep Harry safe as per her agreement with his mother.. Also the comment about Margaret not being able to sleep after she acquired the roadmap gem of the Nevernever and how dangerous it was.. Why would that be?