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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: MoroccoMole on April 18, 2022, 11:56:29 PM
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What in the heck is Harry talking about here? This is from BG, when Ethniu let loose with the eye on the northside.
"The world gasped and went scarlet again, red light flooding through the haze of war. The air screamed with unnatural power as the Eye of Baylor unleashed raw destruction upon the city, and my heart took a terrified flutter. I had only once before witnessed destructive power on that order of magnitude, and that had been at the will of the Fallen Angel himself - and even then it had been carefully constrained, user for a purpose."
When did Harry witness the power of Lucifer? Or am I misreading who he's talking about? I don't think any of the nickelheads have shown anything like the power of the Eye.
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What in the heck is Harry talking about here? This is from BG, when Ethniu let loose with the eye on the northside.
"The world gasped and went scarlet again, red light flooding through the haze of war. The air screamed with unnatural power as the Eye of Baylor unleashed raw destruction upon the city, and my heart took a terrified flutter. I had only once before witnessed destructive power on that order of magnitude, and that had been at the will of the Fallen Angel himself - and even then it had been carefully constrained, user for a purpose."
When did Harry witness the power of Lucifer? Or am I misreading who he's talking about? I don't think any of the nickelheads have shown anything like the power of the Eye.
In the museum where the Archive is held, he talks about the power running thru the walls to fuel the circle.... says it was far beyond anything he'd ever be able to do, even with Lasciel. Think he calls it Archangel level, and says so again in the chapel after Michael is shot. Also says he can only think of one Archangel that would help the denarians. He doesn't SEE Lucifer, but sees his handiwork. Maybe angelic/demonic power is a little different, when they see Michael's safe room it was identified as Angelic... Raphael, or one of his underlings, maybe?
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In the museum where the Archive is held, he talks about the power running thru the walls to fuel the circle.... says it was far beyond anything he'd ever be able to do, even with Lasciel. Think he calls it Archangel level, and says so again in the chapel after Michael is shot. Also says he can only think of one Archangel that would help the denarians. He doesn't SEE Lucifer, but sees his handiwork. Maybe angelic/demonic power is a little different, when they see Michael's safe room it was identified as Angelic... Raphael, or one of his underlings, maybe?
Which underscores the gift that Uriel gave him in that moment, Soul Power. It counters the power that Lucifer can throw around, but at that moment when he suddenly he had it at the aquarium, Harry had no clue of what was happening. To a large extent he still doesn't understand the gift that he was given.
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This is why I think Lucifer is ultimately behind the Black Council, with a Denarian who is not Nick, on it. Nick was being used to recruit the Archive, not for the Denarians but for the Black Council.
Lucifer using his power like this has terrific consequences, the reward must be equal to the risk. The Archive is currently aligned with the White God through the Accorded Nations, the Denarians too were part of the Accords at that point, but subsequently left. Lucifers ultimate aim is to replace WG running creation and wants the archive to survive as a bailiwick against the Outsiders, under his wing fighting the oblivion war. The Outsiders want the archive destroyed. Given who the Black Council have targeted I think they want the White Court, White Council and Archive in their camp, the most human of the Accorded Powers
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What in the heck is Harry talking about here? This is from BG, when Ethniu let loose with the eye on the northside.
"The world gasped and went scarlet again, red light flooding through the haze of war. The air screamed with unnatural power as the Eye of Baylor unleashed raw destruction upon the city, and my heart took a terrified flutter. I had only once before witnessed destructive power on that order of magnitude, and that had been at the will of the Fallen Angel himself - and even then it had been carefully constrained, user for a purpose."
When did Harry witness the power of Lucifer? Or am I misreading who he's talking about? I don't think any of the nickelheads have shown anything like the power of the Eye.
Thorned Namshiel. He uses it in Small Favor. The specific attribution is given by Jake(Uriel) in the Chapel at the end of Small Favor. “You gotta think that maybe there’s a matter of balance, here,” he said. “Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand.”
In addition this was probably how Thorned Namshiel was able use so much Hellfire at Arctis Tor.
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An unidentified magic user Denarian used Hellfire at Arctic Tor.
Thorned Namshiel’s archaic accent suggested he didn’t get out much. My theory is there is an unnamed Denarian who has been a double agent against Nick, a mole for Lucifer from day one. We have never seen all thirty. Nick suspects this, and one of the reasons for the two factions and the destruction of records is to hide that there may in fact be a small third faction working with the Black Council and Lucifer. Nick and the others are merely fall guys and distractions. Cowl may in fact be a rogue Denarian hiding his identity and that of his Fallen.
Namshiel I think was suspected which is why Nick rarely let him out to play, the Archive (being recruited by Lucifer and not really Nick) mean’t Nick had to break out even his suspected mole. He needed everyone and he needed a magical heavy hitter.
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Mab's reaction to his name in the Chapel pretty much nails it down for me. But whatever.
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Mab's reaction to his name in the Chapel pretty much nails it down for me. But whatever.
I think she believes Namshiel is the mole. I'm not sure she's correct - she can misinterpret things, like Harry's motives toward Molly.
And if Tessa and/or Rosanna are the real Circle mole(s), they may have been expending considerable effort on setting Namshiel up as their fall guy.
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I suspect Nick will at some point realise he has been played for millennia by Lucifer and at least one fellow Fallen as fall guys (pun intended) and misdirection. That may be enough for Nick and Anduriel to return to the White God, and perhaps bring the grail with them. That may have been one of his major past objectives, preventing the world seeing him as impotent.
Remember Mab didn’t know about Marcone and Namshiel, she doesn’t have an intellectus and her perspective is now quite alien making it difficult for her to assess human motivation.
And yes Namshiel may have been set up, learning about Arctis Tor when he had Namshiel in cold storage means he either had more than one mole or he had gotten the wrong Fallen.
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I suspect Nick will at some point realise he has been played for millennia by Lucifer and at least one fellow Fallen as fall guys (pun intended) and misdirection. That may be enough for Nick and Anduriel to return to the White God, and perhaps bring the grail with them. That may have been one of his major past objectives, preventing the world seeing him as impotent.
I see Nic perhaps giving up the coin because he got what he asked for, the Grail. Andruiel won't go with him, he will remain one of the Fallen. And he has fallen pretty low as we saw at the end of Skin Game.
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The point is Anduriel has been played as well, given makework for two millennia. Either Anduriel has been in on it or is himself a victim of satan.
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The point is Anduriel has been played as well, given makework for two millennia. Either Anduriel has been in on it or is himself a victim of satan.
Well, you could say that all of the Fallen were victims of Lucifer, they were taken in by his lies, or agreed with them, rebelled and got kicked out of Heaven as a result.
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I think she believes Namshiel is the mole. I'm not sure she's correct - she can misinterpret things, like Harry's motives toward Molly.
And if Tessa and/or Rosanna are the real Circle mole(s), they may have been expending considerable effort on setting Namshiel up as their fall guy.
Exactly why do you set up a Fallen as a scapegoat? He's already a bad guy. If they are out to fool anyone it isn't Mab. But read it your way, that's the fun of it. :)
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The point is Anduriel has been played as well, given makework for two millennia. Either Anduriel has been in on it or is himself a victim of satan.
Or he is Plan B. Could be a distraction, could be a Judas Goat (OK, I had to use that), or could be an alternative to see which works.
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Exactly why do you set up a Fallen as a scapegoat? He's already a bad guy. If they are out to fool anyone it isn't Mab. But read it your way, that's the fun of it. :)
Whilst Nicky and the Denarians are running around noisily trying to bring on the armageddon, what is Lucifer up to? Perhaps he is running his own team of hand picked operatives trying to supplant the White God. We have confirmation of Lucifer impacting upon Dresden twice, he is definitely keeping a light hand because every time he directly intervenes Uriel cock blocks him. The Denarians allow for indirect intervention but they face off against the Knights a stalemate.
If I were Lucifer I would set up a body of mortal or near mortal beings of power able to use their lovely free will to do my bidding without incurring either Uriel or the Knights intervention. What does THAT sound like. Everyone keeps an eye out for Nicky and ignores Cowl altogether.
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Whilst Nicky and the Denarians are running around noisily trying to bring on the armageddon, what is Lucifer up to? Perhaps he is running his own team of hand picked operatives trying to supplant the White God. We have confirmation of Lucifer impacting upon Dresden twice, he is definitely keeping a light hand because every time he directly intervenes Uriel cock blocks him. The Denarians allow for indirect intervention but they face off against the Knights a stalemate.
If I were Lucifer I would set up a body of mortal or near mortal beings of power able to use their lovely free will to do my bidding without incurring either Uriel or the Knights intervention. What does THAT sound like. Everyone keeps an eye out for Nicky and ignores Cowl altogether.
I thought Lucifer did that, they are called Denarians and their servants... ???
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The Denarians are the 30 Fallen Lucifer LEAST trusted, or I suspect the 27-28 he least trusted and 1-3 most trusted. So he told them to raise hell in the mortal world and kept them out of his hair. Meanwhile he personally handpicks competent people like Cowl, Listen etc, he trusts to carry out his actual plan to undermine and replace the White God.
It’s how you make people you don’t trust still useful, as useful idiots. Nicky will not like that. Nor will Anduriel unless he is in on it.
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The Denarians are the 30 Fallen Lucifer LEAST trusted, or I suspect the 27-28 he least trusted and 1-3 most trusted. So he told them to raise hell in the mortal world and kept them out of his hair. Meanwhile he personally handpicks competent people like Cowl, Listen etc, he trusts to carry out his actual plan to undermine and replace the White God.
It’s how you make people you don’t trust still useful, as useful idiots. Nicky will not like that. Nor will Anduriel unless he is in on it.
??? Is there a WOJ about that?
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Brought up by someone else on another thread.
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What in the heck is Harry talking about here? This is from BG, when Ethniu let loose with the eye on the northside.
"The world gasped and went scarlet again, red light flooding through the haze of war. The air screamed with unnatural power as the Eye of Baylor unleashed raw destruction upon the city, and my heart took a terrified flutter. I had only once before witnessed destructive power on that order of magnitude, and that had been at the will of the Fallen Angel himself - and even then it had been carefully constrained, user for a purpose."
When did Harry witness the power of Lucifer? Or am I misreading who he's talking about? I don't think any of the nickelheads have shown anything like the power of the Eye.
Two points on this.
1) What Harry is referring to is the Signs he witnesses (and the aftermath) in Small Favor. The Signs are large pentagrams of Hellfire that were set up by the Denarians but the power comes from Hell. At the time, Harry assumes Lucifer is doing it.
2) WOJ is that it actually wasn't Lucifer providing the power, but more like one of his lieutenants. The way he said it (in context to the question) made me feel like Jim was trying to hint something.
Harry, as he is often, is a poor narrator. We often get unreliable information because we only get Harry's very limited perspective. So it's hard to sort out the mess. My general rule is I assume it's true unless something suggests otherwise. That's obviously difficult but I feel the WOJ is quite clear in that Harry is mistaken.
??? Is there a WOJ about that?
Yeah it's an old one. I'll find it for you.
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How many archangels in hell?
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You mean Nicky is dealing with middle management and not the top man himself. Poor Nicky. The paperwork must kill him.
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How many archangels in hell?
Still might only be one. There are levels of angels - a Cherubim might not have the power of a Seraphim, for example. Harry had never seen an archangel's power at that time - he may have thought since he had seen SOME angels, and it was beyond them, it had to be an archangel, right? Be like a European in Africa long ago. He's seen bison, and bulls, and horses. Then he sees a rhino. "I just saw the biggest animal in the WORLD!" A week later, he sees the elephant....
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How many archangels in hell?
Just the one as far as we know. There are only five in the Dresden Files (Michael, Rafael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Lucifer).
My guess is there is a reason Lucifer didn't personally power those Signs in Small Favor. Perhaps that would have allowed direct response from another Archangel. Perhaps Lucifer can't unload his power like that.
Still might only be one. There are levels of angels - a Cherubim might not have the power of a Seraphim, for example. Harry had never seen an archangel's power at that time - he may have thought since he had seen SOME angels, and it was beyond them, it had to be an archangel, right? Be like a European in Africa long ago. He's seen bison, and bulls, and horses. Then he sees a rhino. "I just saw the biggest animal in the WORLD!" A week later, he sees the elephant....
I think that's effectively right. Harry is still fairly ignorant of a lot of things, but that's only because of his lack of experience. He can only use the information he has, but he hasn't had anywhere near enough exposure.
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Just the one as far as we know. There are only five in the Dresden Files (Michael, Rafael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Lucifer).
Then Jim isn't reading what he writes“Oh,” he said. “Can an old man offer you one more thought?”
“Sure,” I said, without turning around.
“You gotta think that maybe there’s a matter of balance, here,” he said. “Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand.”
My right hand erupted into pins and needles again.
Can that be read another way?
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I read it as Lucifer acted overtly and Uriel quietly. What are you getting from it?
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Yuillegan's last two posts.
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If Lucifer acts overtly or covertly Uriel is empowered to act, but Uriel can choose the manner and time of that help.
Lucifer expended enormous energy in creating the spell which captured the Archive. Gifting Harry with Soulfire is seen to match that enormous expenditure. However that use of Soulfire is over time, is still paying back and will to the future. Harry used only the smallest part in rescuing Ivy, and yet Harry still prevailed, and still has access to Soulfire, which is why Harry is now a target of Lucifer. Lucifer made a mistake and Uriel exploited it in a fashion which is ultimately going to cost Lucifer going forwards far more than his own actions obtained any benefit.
Harry as a Starborn may have been a legitimate mortal force multiplier for Uriel to play giving back 100 times or more the initial investment. So far it has resulted the saving of the Archive, the extinction of the Red Court, the capture of the Titan and strengthening of the Accords. A whole list of unintended consequences. If Harry is turned Lucifer gets that force multiplier going forward. Not worked so far.
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If Lucifer acts overtly or covertly Uriel is empowered to act, but Uriel can choose the manner and time of that help.
Harry as a Starborn may have been a legitimate mortal force multiplier for Uriel to play giving back 100 times or more the initial investment. So far it has resulted the saving of the Archive, the extinction of the Red Court, the capture of the Titan and strengthening of the Accords. A whole list of unintended consequences.
You ASSUME unintended consequences. Could be Uriel is smarter than we are... I would expect an archangel to be. Not omniscient, but pretty darn smart.
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Unintended consequences for Lucifer, he appears to have a blindspot for such, otherwise he wouldn’t be where he is.
Uriel seems to genuinely play the long game and has an immense amount of his time invested in Harry, lending Michael his grace was incredibly risky but succeeded, the first instalment on that risk was the use of the Spear by Harry to bind Ethnui, save the day and bolster the Accords (everyone is going to be like Finland and Sweden now, I suspect the Tuathan and several of the other Wild Fae Kingdoms will now join). With Harry leading the charge to drop the masquerade between the human and supernatural worlds definitely part of Uriels agenda.
Uriel expects Harry to act like Harry, only now with Soulfire and the Superweapons.
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Then Jim isn't reading what he writes. Can that be read another way?
I mean, that wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Jim. That aside, that line doesn't have to be taken literally. It can be read as "on the orders of", so whether Jim meant it literally or not, it can be interpreted in such a way.
Strength comes in many forms after all - physical, magical, political, authoritarian, militaristic etc. I mean, we don't assume Jim meant Lucifer was investing his physical muscles after all.
Unintended consequences for Lucifer, he appears to have a blindspot for such, otherwise he wouldn’t be where he is.
Assuming of course that Lucifer doesn't want to be in Hell...I believe in Milton's Paradise Lost Lucifer famously says "It is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". Or that Lucifer being in Hell isn't part of TWG's plan etc. Although I don't think the latter lines up with what we've seen in the series or what Jim has said. But I do suspect Hell is where Lucifer wanted to be.
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Or hell is where humans placed him. They created the stories after all.
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Assuming of course that Lucifer doesn't want to be in Hell...I believe in Milton's Paradise Lost Lucifer famously says "It is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". Or that Lucifer being in Hell isn't part of TWG's plan etc. Although I don't think the latter lines up with what we've seen in the series or what Jim has said. But I do suspect Hell is where Lucifer wanted to be.
That’s what Lucifer would say.
The White God created the Never Never, humanity shaped it into its various zones and Kingdoms via belief, it is distinct from the likes of Tartarus in Hades realm and I presume that it is currently modelled after Dante Allegheiri’s 9 circles which using the poet Virgil created a clear adoption of a division from the Greco Romano Tartarus.
Basically Dante redecorated when Lucifer wasn’t looking and he is stuck with it. I wonder if Uriel put Dante up to it?
Hell is other peoples decorating choices you have to live with.
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I mean, that wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Jim. That aside, that line doesn't have to be taken literally. It can be read as "on the orders of", so whether Jim meant it literally or not, it can be interpreted in such a way.
First my standard disclaimer, it's your book when you read it.
I love Butcher's prose, but language is language. If a simple statement as in one archangel did one thing then another archangel did another, then it is pettifogging if he then tells me that it was only true in a way. I don't care who connected the hose to the fireplug, I am concerned with who supplied the water.
In terms of Hell, wherever it is, it isn't Heaven. They are called Fallen because they were cast out. And that the devil might rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven doesn't obviate the fact that he wants to be is on the Golden Throne in Heaven.
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That’s what he was after reigning in Heaven in the first place, and an ambition he hasn’t given up on. Remember that after everything Lucifer is behind the scenes with his own plans, using and misusing the schemes of others to achieve his ends, and that includes the Denarians, the Circle, Drakul and the Black Court, the Fomor, the Outsiders and Nemesis. Perhaps even Larry Fowler. Either directly or indirectly every group of villains is doing his bidding.
In the same way but clearer we have seen Vadderung/Odin, Mab and Winter, Hades, even Marcone doing the bidding of the White God.either directly or indirectly. Now the Accorded nations are welded together more strongly (except the White Council whom both groups rightly seem to despise) than ever before Swartalves, The Archive, Summer, the Megapodes the White Court and even the Ghouls have set down their side.
I think the Paranet will apply for accorded status badly undercutting the White Council, a computer literate group of mortal practitioners potentially by population the largest Accorded Nation. This is why I think the White God is born from the Singularity and the Endgame is the last cycle before that event where everything is still up for grabs, Harry’s cycle including who gets to sit on the Golden Throne, and if not, whether it is crushed beneath the feet of Outsiders.
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I think the Paranet will apply for accorded status badly undercutting the White Council, a computer literate group of mortal practitioners potentially by population the largest Accorded Nation.
With Elaine representing them as their "leader," being she's a co-founder without obligation to another accorded nation?
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Why yes, Harry would not seek any position of authority, and as Winter Knight would be authorised to endorse their application on behalf of Winter. I can see Vadderung endorsing and River Shoulders, Marcone and the Summer and White Courts.
Harry will see them safely get Accorded Status under Elaine Mallory, and the ungrateful bastards will immediately turn round and appoint him to a position of responsibility within the Paranet such as The Warden, head of the Enforcement and Education Services of the Paranet tasked with keeping potential wizards and warlocks out of the hands of the White Council and managing supernatural threats to the Paranet. Elaine would do the diplomacy, business interests, and general management.
No good deed goes unpunished, and Harry is in the best position for the job, making it what it should be, avoiding killing kids and allowing them to grow up to be wizards. With Demonreach he can put the worst young warlocks on the protocol and get them treatment, via the Paranet. Harry has shown with Molly and Simon that he can help some who are not the worst even without drastic intervention, who would have been killed by the White Council.
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... and the ungrateful bastards will immediately turn round and appoint him to a position of responsibility within the Paranet such as The Warden, head of the Enforcement ...
Mmmm!
Savor the irony!
... Education Services of the Paranet tasked with keeping potential wizards and warlocks out of the hands of the White Council ...
Making him & the Paranet a direct competitor of the White Council, trying to scoop Apprentices out from under them. That implies the kind of troubles Harry never gets into... </SARCASM> i.e. it's very likely!
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It is very Harry, the Paranet doing to him exactly what the White Council did.
I do feel however that Harry is going to break away from the Master/Apprentice system and try and integrate young wizards into the modern mortal world, probably by turning the Castle into the Vadderung School of Magic of the University of Chicago, and educating them alongside lesser practitioners in training and mortals interested in aspects of magic. Imagine if the Alphas had been able to formally undertake a minor in magic, or psychology students being taught a unit on Parapsychology by Professor Lindquist.
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I do feel however that Harry is going to break away from the Master/Apprentice system and try and integrate young wizards into the modern mortal world ...
I am inclined to agree... if Jim sees a way to write this arc in an engaging (and sufficiently Harry-tormenting) manner; he may not feel this works, for whatever reason.
However, I still think:
- The Paranet is likely to be a key element, for the purposes of identifying/recruiting the young Talents.
- Paranet is likely to be a key element, for the purposes of providing most of the staffing &c; Mort and other non-White-Council resources Harry has (who are are likely (a)willing / (b)available) are insufficient to the chore.
- The castle is unlikely to be where "Hogwarts 2.0" is situated, because Harry feels "proximity-to-Harry" is dangerous.
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Or hell is where humans placed him. They created the stories after all.
Although I know you might not agree, we do know from Jim that these spirits existed prior to mortals being created. We know that Angels and many Gods existed before time began, before Creation. So a lot of things happened before human belief had any impact. Rather, they learned the stories from others. The beliefs didn't come from nowhere. Jim once was asked if there had been multiple Creators given that human belief changes things, and so as belief changes the retroactively empowered different beings. Jim replied that the questioner was assigning limits where there aren't any - that it isn't so much the beings that change but mortal understanding of who and what they are that does.
So, to put that in context of your statement, Hell and Lucifer always existed, it's just mortal understanding of those things that change. Mortal belief doesn't really change that sort of thing. It just learns more about it.
First my standard disclaimer, it's your book when you read it.
I love Butcher's prose, but language is language. If a simple statement as in one archangel did one thing then another archangel did another, then it is pettifogging if he then tells me that it was only true in a way. I don't care who connected the hose to the fireplug, I am concerned with who supplied the water.
In terms of Hell, wherever it is, it isn't Heaven. They are called Fallen because they were cast out. And that the devil might rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven doesn't obviate the fact that he wants to be is on the Golden Throne in Heaven.
I like your standard disclaimer. I always assume that of course, but it's nice to hear it all the same.
I agree, the supplier of the power is the issue. I think the likely explanation is that when he wrote Small Favor, he literally meant Lucifer supplied the power. I think he has revised that idea somewhat (for reasons that are unknown) and needs it to be a lieutenant. Based on what we have even seen or heard about "normal" angels, it is hardly beyond their power, in fact it is actually well inside their abilities. Given that Lucifer is an archangel, it's a fairly small move for him. I think the later text does hint that Lucifer might have other reasons for not being directly involved. I mean, if you go back far enough we are told the Fallen cannot act directly. Hence why the Denarians are around. But then we see some contradiction over the series and are all left wondering what happened.
I think that very much depends on the story. In some interpretations, Heaven is a totalitarian dictatorship, and Hell is the place of freedom. Now I doubt this is true of the Dresden Files but when it comes to fiction anything is possible. In as much as we know about the Fallen in the Dresden Files, they "chose" (as much as they can) to not be angels anymore. An angel isn't a species, it's an office. The "species" is spirit. I think when it comes to such beings though it affects their very being to occupy or vacate an office, unlike mortals, and so the spirit that was an angel becomes Fallen, a sort of anti-angel, a negative of the same being. Why that is so is unclear but my guess would be it is to do with the very nature of holiness and sin.
In any case, we don't know the story the Dresden Files has gone with. Perhaps the Fallen were cast out. Perhaps they left of their own accord and set up shop elsewhere. In some stories, like the Lucifer comic, the throne of Heaven is the last thing Lucifer wants. He doesn't want to rule Creation, he simply wishes to be free of it. I don't know what the Lucifer in the Dresden Files wants, all I know is that he is having an "argument" with The White God (the Creator and ruler of the Dresden Files Creation/multiverse). What the nature of that argument is, what the positions are, and what that looks like is mostly unclear, but we do know it has something to do with influencing mortals to choose one way or another. Ultimately, we cannot assume that the Dresden Files' version of Lucifer, or the Fall, or the War in Heaven, is exactly like that of the Bible. There are already enough differences that we must be open-minded to other possibilities.
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Time was originally non-linear, it was imposed by the White God for humanity to develop. The imposition of linear time allows for the creation of the White God to take place in the future, but as soon as the White God is created they have always existed before even what we know a linear time. Therefore both God Created Man and Man Created God are equally valid.
However until the loop is closed there is a potential weakness, hence the cycle and it’s Endgame.
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Time is relative. To mortals, it is linear. To other beings, not so much. The more powerful the being, the less linear it is. I suspect at the TWG's level all time is happening all at once, so from TWG's perspective the loop IS closed.
Does that matter in terms of the story? Yes and no. On the one hand, we are only ever likely to see it from a linear perspective as that's how Harry perceives time (not to mention Jim). On the other hand, what's happening off screen does impact things in the story and so it can't just be events that happen from Harry's perspective that matter otherwise it would make Harry TWG...which he isn't.
The universe itself doesn't operate in an entirely linear fashion, in our own reality. Stands to reason that the same would apply in Dresden's reality.
As far as I understand most Christian doctrine, and based on what Jim has said about TWG and his servants, the Creator has always existed (at least as far as we understand things at a mortal level). Certainly before Creation happened. Therefore TWG isn't ever Created within its own Creation. If your theory is that TWG creates itself within it's own Creation, which in turn makes Creation, that suggests reality is a loop (or some sort of Russian doll like thing). It's possible, but a paradox. More likely is TWG always existing and creating Creation, and then becoming a part/inserting itself into Creation. From mortal linear perspective it would appear that TWG comes into Creation after Creation has happened, but from the Outside it would be that TWG was always a part of Creation.
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A loop like in a loop the loop.
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Although I know you might not agree, we do know from Jim that these spirits existed prior to mortals being created. We know that Angels and many Gods existed before time began, before Creation. So a lot of things happened before human belief had any impact. Rather, they learned the stories from others. The beliefs didn't come from nowhere. Jim once was asked if there had been multiple Creators given that human belief changes things, and so as belief changes the retroactively empowered different beings. Jim replied that the questioner was assigning limits where there aren't any - that it isn't so much the beings that change but mortal understanding of who and what they are that does.
Hell as we now it now is a relative new invention. The old testament does not even have a clear idea about it. So the beings are there but the whole trappings as how they appear to us is another matter. Hell itself might just be part of that understanding.
Jim tells here far less than he seems to tell.
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The Universe is as linear as it needs to be. Science doesn't talk about anything outside it. And that is the WG's choice. In the verse effect must follow cause. Otherwise Butcher would have published the BAT first. 8)
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The Universe is as linear as it needs to be. Science doesn't talk about anything outside it. And that is the WG's choice. In the verse effect must follow cause. Otherwise Butcher would have published the BAT first. 8)
Nope, he would have published Restoration of Faith first, Jim Butcher is a non-linear being able to create new work out of order.