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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Ananda on April 12, 2018, 02:38:20 AM
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I saw this article last week and immediately thought of this series. Some of the stuff is pretty funny and, while over the top, still pretty accurate. I’m putting this in spoilers section in case people quote descriptions of characters. Even my husband noted and made a joke to me about how almost all the women in the DF were described when he read it. This is meant as a fun post, not a scathing critique. Please take it as such.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43639004
One of the funniest, for me, is the way Molly is described each book where the narrator/author talks about her breasts and their growth progress since they were in a “training bra”. That line always makes me cringe a bit. It’s just creepy! :D
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I saw something similar the other day, but I don't remember where.
It was something like, "My eyes played over the three new arrivals. The first was a creature of pure, distilled beauty, her curves crafted by an artisan hoping to capture the essence of all that was wholesome and pure, and yet wickedly sinful if the light struck her emerald eyes just right. The other two, men I suppose, had features and stuff, too, I guess. Maybe."
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The interesting thing for me is that the person writing the files is Harry. So his descriptions of the women fit perfectly well with his personality. But Aftermath was quite well written from a female PoV (IMHO). I don't remember Thomas descriptions in Backup, but I suspect he is not as...teen ager as Harry is.
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The interesting thing for me is that the person writing the files is Harry. So his descriptions of the women fit perfectly well with his personality. But Aftermath was quite well written from a female PoV (IMHO). I don't remember Thomas descriptions in Backup, but I suspect he is not as...teen ager as Harry is.
Thomas can't very well afford to dwell on beautiful women being beautiful, given his situation. But Molly's POV in Bombshells and Cold Case didn't seem objectifying (some people might have problems with the portrayal of Winter ramping up her sex drive in the latter, but it still beats Harry's personality change in CD). I think it really is a character issue rather than the author's actual outlook leaking through into the writing.
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I agree
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Thomas can't very well afford to dwell on beautiful women being beautiful, given his situation. But Molly's POV in Bombshells and Cold Case didn't seem objectifying (some people might have problems with the portrayal of Winter ramping up her sex drive in the latter, but it still beats Harry's personality change in CD). I think it really is a character issue rather than the author's actual outlook leaking through into the writing.
Yeah, if you read Codex Alera or Cinder Spires in particular (both written from the third person), it has very little, if any, of the horny gushing that Dresden puts in.
It also varies from book to book within Dresden -- basically, the longer it's been since Harry has gotten laid, the more he, ahem, focuses on the females he meets. Compare his description of Lara in Blood Rites, when he's been separated from Susan for several years...:
The newcomer was the real thing. She was grace. Beauty. Art.
As such, she was not so easily quantified.
She would have been tall, even without the heeled faux-Victorian
boots of Italian leather. Her hair was so dark that its highlights
were nearly blue, a torrent of glossy curls held partially in check
with a pair of milky ivory combs. She had eyes of dark grey with
hints of violet twilight at their centers. Her clothes were all effortless
style: natural fabrics, black skirt and jacket embroidered with
abstract dark crimson roses with a white blouse.
Thinking back later, I couldn't clearly remember her facial
features or her body, beyond a notion that they were superb. Her
looks were almost extraneous. They weren't any more important to
her appeal than a glass was to wine. It was at its best when
invisible and showing the spirit contained within. Beyond mere
physical presence, I could sense the nature of the woman—
strength of will, intelligence, blended with a sardonic wit and
edged with a lazy, sensuous hunger.
...to descriptions of her in Turn Coat, when he and Luccio are regularly bumping uglies:
Lara Raith, de facto ruler of the White Court, sat behind the
desk. She wore a silk business suit of purest white, cut close to
the flawless lines of her body. The cut of the suit elegantly
displayed her figure, and contrasted sharply with the long blueblack
hair, which hung in waves past her shoulders. Her features
had the classically immortal beauty of Greek statues, balancing
sheer beauty with strength, intelligence, and perception. Her eyes
were a deep, warm grey, framed by thick sooty lashes, and just
looking at her full soft mouth made my lips twitch and tingle as they
demanded an introduction to Lara’s.
Yes, he's still kinda gushing, because it's Lara. But all the fantastical, flowery description is toned down to more dryly describing her outfit and her actual features.
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Again, I agree. Lara is a sexual vampire, so her descriptions are over the top, but that is normal because the person talking is Harry. Same happens with the famous rapey thoughts. It's the mantle talking.
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The thing is, the story is being told from a male's point of view, i.e. Harry's point of view. We know from his own description of himself that while he does respect women for things besides their bodies, he is, by his own admission, sexually frustrated. Not sure if that is the right word for it, but Harry hasn't had much experience with women.. So even at this point in his forty year life, which includes fathering a child, he physically reacts to the female body like a very young teenager. In other words it is all about breasts and curves etc., yet Harry also goes out of his way to say how much intelligence in a woman attracts him.... However so far we haven't seen Harry in a relationship with an intelligent woman with average or below average looks.
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While I am not going to explore the comparative attractiveness of the female characters (although Lea has alot of appeal with me); I think a point to consider is the forementioned description of women by Harry when he is in a relationship and when he is not. Guys in a relationship will notice other women's sex appeal; but guys not in a relationship will NOTICE and NOTICE again a woman's sex appeal. It works very similar to when a guy last ate and what he had at the last meal. Many guys, me included, are like dogs. Pet me and feed me and I am yours for life; don't do those things and some dogs might stray.
As for men writing women characters, I agree that Butcher did a good job on the several female POV short stories. Though, I think Murphy has alot of masculine qualities. But, hey, I am guy. I know as much about women as many women know about men. Recently, my wife made some observations about my behavior that seemed obvious to me but surprising and confusing to her. Women often give men more complexity than we have. Guys are often simple, not stupid, just simple.
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Yes, I always quite the same part of Harry Potter, when Hermione explains Ron and Harry what Cho is feeling. It was obvious for me and for Hermione, but Ron and Harry said that was impossible, it was too complex.
That said, I don't believe in masculine and feminine qualities.
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Okay, respecting your beliefs on that, not agreeing, but I am respecting the difference of opinion. Most guys I know, myself included don't have the same pattern of elaborate thinking as Hermione described. I call my method of thinking the KISS method. KISS stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid." If I start over-thinking a problem, the problem gets bigger and nothing gets done about it. Sometimes I just got to plow in, flip some switches, pull some strings, and see what happens.
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I totally see the advantage of that. A faster answer, even if not ideal, is better than a great answer which arrives too late.
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It helps that many people think I am a little nuts anyhow; so, they expect me to act in some quick, peculiar ways. There is a "method to my madness" though that method barely makes sense even to me.
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:)
It's not only about acting, but what you actually ponder in your head
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Inside my head are some quiet places, some nice places, some dark places, and one or two areas that I would rather not venture into. So mostly normal and "mostly harmless."
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:) perfectly fine
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Muchas gracia, Dina, y buenos noches.
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De nada y buenas noches
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The only thing I can add to this conversation is the Dresden Files, and particularly the first three books, are very much influenced by 1940's detective fiction. In Storm Front, Jim lifted the basic plot structure of "Farewell My Lovely" by Raymond Chandler and made a few clever twists and then added magic. (Though a very well thought out magic system.) In both books the detective starts investigating a murder, there is a criminal who is not the murderer but for his own reasons doesn't want the investigator getting involved, there is another murder of someone who knows too much and in both novels it's a women. I almost forgot the best part; in both books the investigator is involved in a separate investigation, looking for a missing person, but in the end both investigations are really the same investigation.
So all the conventions Jim used to create and animate Harry can't just go away. They remain integral to who Harry is and how he relates to women in general. Now if you see the same or very similar descriptions of women in the Alera series or in the newer Cinder Spires book (books whenever we get more), then the criticism leveled against Jim's writing is a much more valid argument.
Of course, it might be argued that those two series are modeled after genres with a particular take on the world and the people in it. For example, Jim has said the Cinder Spires is basically Horatio Hornblower sailing ship adventure with a steam punk twist. I've never read any Horatio Hornblower books so I can't go any further than that. The beta readers who have read samples of other types of novels Jim has played around with; like a hard scifi X-Files on the moon concept that his beta readers weren't that hot on, might have better insight into this question.
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Yes, I always quite the same part of Harry Potter, when Hermione explains Ron and Harry what Cho is feeling. It was obvious for me and for Hermione, but Ron and Harry said that was impossible, it was too complex.
That said, I don't believe in masculine and feminine qualities.
Yet, Hermione ended up marrying Ron....
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The only thing I can add to this conversation is the Dresden Files, and particularly the first three books, are very much influenced by 1940's detective fiction. In Storm Front, Jim lifted the basic plot structure of "Farewell My Lovely" by Raymond Chandler and made a few clever twists and then added magic. (Though a very well thought out magic system.) In both books the detective starts investigating a murder, there is a criminal who is not the murderer but for his own reasons doesn't want the investigator getting involved, there is another murder of someone who knows too much and in both novels it's a women. I almost forgot the best part; in both books the investigator is involved in a separate investigation, looking for a missing person, but in the end both investigations are really the same investigation.
So all the conventions Jim used to create and animate Harry can't just go away. They remain integral to who Harry is and how he relates to women in general. Now if you see the same or very similar descriptions of women in the Alera series or in the newer Cinder Spires book (books whenever we get more), then the criticism leveled against Jim's writing is a much more valid argument.
Of course, it might be argued that those two series are modeled after genres with a particular take on the world and the people in it. For example, Jim has said the Cinder Spires is basically Horatio Hornblower sailing ship adventure with a steam punk twist. I've never read any Horatio Hornblower books so I can't go any further than that. The beta readers who have read samples of other types of novels Jim has played around with; like a hard scifi X-Files on the moon concept that his beta readers weren't that hot on, might have better insight into this question.
I have read the Hornblower series but not Cinder Spires... So I cannot compare...
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About Ron, yes, but that is not a problem, because there are no men more complex. At least that is the simplistic point of view :)
BTW, I didn't like Hermione and Ron as a couple. And apparently JKR herself admitted it was a mistake.
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The interesting thing for me is that the person writing the files is Harry. So his descriptions of the women fit perfectly well with his personality. But Aftermath was quite well written from a female PoV (IMHO). I don't remember Thomas descriptions in Backup, but I suspect he is not as...teen ager as Harry is.
Interesting.
I have never been sure about Murphy's internal dialogue in Aftermath. I always thought she came off as a little petty.
Examples:
If I remembered right, most guys who looked at Andi wouldn’t be entirely certain whether or not she had lips afterward. But she’d probably have back problems at some point.
Two other people stood on the stage, slightly behind him, testimony to his ability to lead. The first was a woman, a blond amazon more than six feet tall in a grey business suit. She had the legs that had been cruelly denied me at birth, the bitch.
In both cases, this is Murphy feeling more than unkindly at other women apparently simply because they appear in her mind to look better than her (male-y tropes as a well I believe -- bigger breasts and longer legs). Not to mention that I've never called anyone a "bitch" in my life out loud or mentally. But maybe I'm just too sensitive that way.
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Well, Murphy is allowed to be petty. Women are allowed to be petty. And I won't say more because I don't want to be criticized.
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I don't think it's really petty, but I guess it's up to interpretation. I could see where someone could read that and think she was being hauty, a la Housewives of Never-Never. But I read it as being said with more of an amused sardonic tone. Like Sam and Dean Winchester calling each other jerk and bitch.
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Murphy's also spent most of her life in a male-dominated field and, as she might put it, speaks Martian. It would not be at all surprising to me if the attitudes she was used to dealing with day-to-day affected her thinking as well.
A Murphy who'd been a florist her whole life might not be saying the same things about those women.
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Why? Because florist are like delicate flowers? ;D
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The thing about Harry is that almost all males really do think like that...sort of. Where Harry is a little different is that he's more conscious of it. A guy seeing a woman he finds attractive is noticing all the same stuff Harry is, as a rule, but one you're past early teens or so it's usually so much a part of the daily background of thought that it's just...background, unless he finds her exceptionally appealing, or he's got semi-immediate plans involving her, or she's coming on to him or he thinks she is. Otherwise, those thoughts are going in parallel with other thoughts as well. Harry, though, tends to dwell on it more specifically, more consciously.
As Kurtin St. George observed, that particular trait is common to the classic/stereotypical noir detective archetype, too.
The comparison to Thomas is interesting, because it's actually natural for Thomas to be different. For one thing, he has to guard his thoughts more carefully to keep his Appetite under control, and for another, it's crude but true to say that Thomas can have almost any woman he wants, if he decides he wants her. The women who will say 'no' to him and stick to it are the exception, and he knows that, too.
So he's less motivated by 'what he can't have'. His frustrations are basically different than Harry's.
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Interesting.
I have never been sure about Murphy's internal dialogue in Aftermath. I always thought she came off as a little petty.
Examples:
In both cases, this is Murphy feeling more than unkindly at other women apparently simply because they appear in her mind to look better than her (male-y tropes as a well I believe -- bigger breasts and longer legs).
But she's not lusting after the breasts and legs, as such, like Harry would be. She's jealous (at least a bit, and probably rueful/sardonic as much as angry) of the power and attention they give the women who have them. The male equivalent would be Harry being jealous of a rich, handsome quarterback or movie star with women throwing themselves at him, or being jealous of Thomas' looks, if he didn't know the hidden cost.
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I don't think it's really petty, but I guess it's up to interpretation. I could see where someone could read that and think she was being hauty, a la Housewives of Never-Never. But I read it as being said with more of an amused sardonic tone. Like Sam and Dean Winchester calling each other jerk and bitch.
And note that she didn't say it out loud. Lots of people think lots of things best not said, it's a human trait.
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But she's not lusting after the breasts and legs, as such, like Harry would be. She's jealous (at least a bit, and probably rueful/sardonic as much as angry) of the power and attention they give the women who have them. The male equivalent would be Harry being jealous of a rich, handsome quarterback or movie star with women throwing themselves at him, or being jealous of Thomas' looks, if he didn't know the hidden cost.
Actually, I think it's like thinking jealous things about Thomas even knowing the hidden cost. Like when he mentioned that Thomas looked like the God of Eau de Cologne, or something like that. Same idea. He does not really envy him. And I think Murphy is the same. She doesn't hate Andi for real.
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Actually, I think it's like thinking jealous things about Thomas even knowing the hidden cost. Like when he mentioned that Thomas looked like the God of Eau de Cologne, or something like that. Same idea. He does not really envy him. And I think Murphy is the same. She doesn't hate Andi for real.
Exactly. She might wish she had Gard's legs (though Harry and other males have expressed the opinion that Karrin's legs are not unappealing), but she doesn't really resent Gard for having them.
It's rueful jealousy.
If she actually could have a trait of Gard's for free, my hunch is Murphy would take the height, actually.
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I think for comparison's sake we need another Murphy POV story where she walks in on Thomas shirtless.
I mean, yeah, we got a little bit of that when she was tying up Billy, but still.
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I definitely come down on the side of Jim basing his descriptions off of the characters who are giving them. As someone already said, Codex Alera and Cinder Spires do not go into the same level of description that Dresden Files do. In the Cinder Spires Gwen is described as small and doll like while Bridget is described as statuesque. Folly is only described by her clothes. In Code Alera Amara is described as tomboyish and all the watercrafters are described as youthful.
I think it illustrates Harry's focus, willpower, and determination. He has the mind of a teenager when it comes to women, but he is able to put that aside to deal with the situation. Summer Knight comes to mind when Harry is with Maeve in Undertown.
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Yes to all that. And I still said Folly is Delirium, from the Endless, so the descriptions is Delirium's.