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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Hankthemoose on December 03, 2020, 12:20:38 PM
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Marcone was a vanilla mortal before he picked up Namshiel. My understanding was that the amount of power someone could access was a matter of genetics. If Marcone had the kind of inborn talent that Harry had, it should have manifested on its own, before Namshiel. Marcone would have been summoning monsters, ripping holes in reality, or doing other mad sorcerer stuff on accident his entire life.
I think the easiest excuse is that Namshiel somehow "gave" Marcone a big magical talent, but there's a problem with that. All of the fallen angels are ancient and know basically everything there is to know—presumably also about magic. So then, all of the Knights of the Blackened Denarius should be slinging mad spells like pros, especially the smarter carriers. Instead, you've got guys like snake boy the one-hit wonder and Tessa's mob of oddly transformed goons.
So... what gives? Any ideas?
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Marcone was a vanilla mortal before he picked up Namshiel. My understanding was that the amount of power someone could access was a matter of genetics. If Marcone had the kind of inborn talent that Harry had, it should have manifested on its own, before Namshiel. Marcone would have been summoning monsters, ripping holes in reality, or doing other mad sorcerer stuff on accident his entire life.
I think the easiest excuse is that Namshiel somehow "gave" Marcone a big magical talent, but there's a problem with that. All of the fallen angels are ancient and know basically everything there is to know—presumably also about magic. So then, all of the Knights of the Blackened Denarius should be slinging mad spells like pros, especially the smarter carriers. Instead, you've got guys like snake boy the one-hit wonder and Tessa's mob of oddly transformed goons.
So... what gives? Any ideas?
No clue, Namshiel is the magic nerd of the denarians but efficiency has limits and any way of boosting your power from an outside source like Sells seems like it should be standard for any denarian that cares about using magic.
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No clue, Namshiel is the magic nerd of the denarians but efficiency has limits and any way of boosting your power from an outside source like Sells seems like it should be standard for any denarian that cares about using magic.
The host must have some talent and the denarian must be interested in offering the education and training. Ursiel just want to hit people and why invest the effort if you can tempt the host with some stupid battle form?
I think most of the hosts don’t get even a small fraction of what they could get. The purpose of the denarian is not to make the host stronger, that is a side effect. It is to corrupt the host and damn him.
Namshiel likes magic so that is his way in.
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The host must have some talent and the denarian must be interested in offering the education and training. Ursiel just want to hit people and why invest the effort if you can tempt the host with some stupid battle form?
I think most of the hosts don’t get even a small fraction of what they could get. The purpose of the denarian is not to make the host stronger, that is a side effect. It is to corrupt the host and damn him.
Namshiel likes magic so that is his way in.
They use the host to achieve their goals whatever they may be. Even Nic who thinks he has a great partnership with Andriel most likely was brainwashed at some point. Yes, he had goals too, which made him vulnerable to taking up the coin, but he very mistaken if he really thinks he is totally calling the shots. I think he realized that when Deidre died.
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They use the host to achieve their goals whatever they may be. Even Nic who thinks he has a great partnership with Andriel most likely was brainwashed at some point. Yes, he had goals too, which made him vulnerable to taking up the coin, but he very mistaken if he really thinks he is totally calling the shots. I think he realized that when Deidre died.
I do not think he realises it even now or if he did that voice was quickly silenced. The whole attack on Michaels house had more than one function. Part of it was to put all the blame for everything outside and let Nicodemus and his wife work together.
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From the description of the battle between Marcone and Ethniu I didn't get the impression he was now a magical heavy so much as he was extremely efficient, maybe leaning heavily on Namshiel for the fight itself. It's entirely possible he had an average sized tank but never learned a lick of magic before then too.
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Hasn't Jim said everyone has some magical ability?
1. Marcone probably has enough magical muscle for Namshiel to work with.
2. I didn't get the impression that Marcone was using a lot of magical muscle. He was doing very advanced stuff and probably doing it very efficiently.
3. Every Denarian gives the bearer some amount of magical ability. Changing shape is a magical ability. It's just not necessarily wizardry. This means it's at least possible that a Denarian can fuel some level of spell work.
4. Namshiel's the wizardry Denarian, so if anyone can fuel spell work, it's him. He'd also be focused on it.
5. Marcone could have done something to get magical muscle if he didn't have a sufficient amount.
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It's because Marcone actually studies and learns how to do magic, that's why. He doesn't have any real power to work with, but that's whatever, Namshiel can provide the power for him, just like Bob did for Butters.
Harry meanwhile has the power and talent to perform magic himself, but he'd rather coast through on talent alone instead of actually training and learning.
If you have natural talent, and actually put effort in as well, you get Eb.
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It's because Marcone actually studies and learns how to do magic, that's why. He doesn't have any real power to work with, but that's whatever, Namshiel can provide the power for him, just like Bob did for Butters.
Harry meanwhile has the power and talent to perform magic himself, but he'd rather coast through on talent alone instead of actually training and learning.
If you have natural talent, and actually put effort in as well, you get Eb.
Well Eb is that + a few centuries of practice.
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It's because Marcone actually studies and learns how to do magic, that's why. He doesn't have any real power to work with, but that's whatever, Namshiel can provide the power for him, just like Bob did for Butters.
Harry meanwhile has the power and talent to perform magic himself, but he'd rather coast through on talent alone instead of actually training and learning.
If you have natural talent, and actually put effort in as well, you get Eb.
Harry is constantly described as a fanatical magic nerd by literally everyone except Harry himself. Saying he coasts in any way directly contradicts the books. Harry thinks of himself as a magical blunt object, but that's just his own perception of himself—and it's what Mab is trying to get him to embrace with her "training".
Especially in the earlier books, we get lots of focus on how Harry's only hobby is perfecting his magical skills, and how he's a magical expert. Whenever his relative skill level compared to other wizards comes up, it is pointed out that he's considered "too young to be taken seriously". At the same time, we see him constantly tinker with and come up with new spells, the occasional potion, better, shinier enchantments, and hellishly complicated voodoo representations of entire cities.
Thinking that Harry doesn't focus on training and learning means fundamentally misunderstanding the character. He's obsessed.
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And yet we constantly get shown how every magic user in the series is better then him.
Early Harry says he's gòod at tracking spells.
Molly -Harry's apprentice with a fraction of the experience- tells us 10 books later that he sucks at it.
Same with Carlos, who is again, far less experienced than Harry, and yet he can pull things apart from the atomic level for no effort, and all Harry has learned to do is explode things bigger.
How about Luccio? We see her from back during her young and reckless days, and she can already do those lazer beams without a focus, whereas in Changes Harry struggles to do one with a focus.
Marcone has apparently zoomed so far past Harry in skill that he can now do something that Harry would struggle to manage after a century of dedicated study (teleportation) and he's been learning for less than a decade, and started with zero magical talent.
Literally every Magic-user in the series has absolutely rocketed past Harry in terms of skills in the past 4-5 books or so. The only thing Harry can do is make a bigger boom.
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Or it is not Marcone at all but everything magic is provided by Namshiel
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Or it is not Marcone at all but everything magic is provided by Namshiel
Exactly, Marcone has all the cunning and ambition to make the most of Namshiel's magic, it is very much a partnership made in Hell.
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Measure Harry's strength by the bodies of his enemies. He's changed the nature of a Fallen's Shadow, survived death, killed a whole species, forged a bond with the Caretaker of the prison of the Gods, imprisoned a Titan, caused the death of two Faerie Queens and fought and won against three Outsider nobles. Smoke that Carlos. You got you butt handed to you by an Ice Princess.
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I agree is a thing of efficiency. I suspect that in raw power levels. Harry is still stronger. So I really need him to begin studying and getting better.
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There's a couple of reasons this can be explained, none of them necessarily any more likely or relevant than the others.
1. Jim's writing changes. I doubt anyone (even Jim) would argue he has been consistent with some of his rules over the years. While Jim likes to pretend he has a "hard magic" system, it's actually quite plot based. Which all of them are of course, it has to be. Everything is just a tool for the story. But for it to be believable for the reader it has to makes sense and be fairly consistent. For this story it seems he needed Marcone to be a Denarian and a magic user. It's also clearly a future part of the series and he felt he had to set it up now. Yes, it appears to break the rules. But likely Jim could find a good enough explanation if challenged.
2. Marcone has had the Coin of Namshiel since SmF. Who knows how long he resisted (at least in his mind)? Likely, he saw the business opportunity and he took it. But that's 6 years later or so that he reveals it to Dresden (and perhaps the world). It is a small amount of time even if you are a rare talent to become that good...but then again look at Ivy. She isn't just a big tank of magic power - she has so much knowledge that clearly allows her to master her powers and puts her on a league seemingly beyond the Senior Council and even the Ladies. Even if Namshiel isn't providing the horsepower perhaps he knows the right secrets - places to draw energy from outside yourself, ways to be extra efficient, secrets that are normally forbidden. Plus Hellfire which grants quite a fair bit of magic muscle on it's own.
3. The breakdown of reality caused by Ethniu and the Eye of Balor. Between a Titan showing up (which was probably hard enough on Reality, plus several old gods and demigods etc) and her firing off her father's Eye, reality was having trouble playing by the rules. Dresden's magic (by his own account) was far stronger and more "real" than it should have been. Ferrovax was doing his best to hold the barrier closed between the Nevernever and the mortal world. But it was still very thing and likely Things slipped through (note - I love that Ferrovax says his contribution to the defense of Chicago must be subtle and then goes and closes the Earth and the Nevernever). Anyway, Marcone probably had far more juice than normal (and unlike Harry he wasn't spent) when he fought Ethniu. So Marcone might not be that strong normally.
4. He might have found a cheat way to gain more magical muscle. A sacrifice, a bargain, a special object or potions, a ritual or spell etc. Even if he hasn't he still might.
Measure Harry's strength by the bodies of his enemies. He's changed the nature of a Fallen's Shadow, survived death, killed a whole species, forged a bond with the Caretaker of the prison of the Gods, imprisoned a Titan, caused the death of two Faerie Queens and fought and won against three Outsider nobles. Smoke that Carlos. You got you butt handed to you by an Ice Princess.
Couldn't agree more.
Harry is sometimes portrayed weaker or less skillful but as I said above part of that is Jim's narrative reasons and part of that is we only see it from Harry's perspective. Harry might even think some wizards are better than they are. Harry also is dealing with his own misconceptions, preconceived notions and insecurities. Any and all of that skew his view from the "truth".
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1 Jim hasn't broken any of his magical rules to date... Any denarian has a battle form which is an excellent usage of shape shifting. Namshiel is simply more finesse than that. Anyone is capable of magic after all, the denarians is just filling in for the inability to sense it. I'm not particularly fond of this plot of Marcone becoming better at magic than Harry, but I don't think it breaks anything but my ability to suspend my disbelief.
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And yet we constantly get shown how every magic user in the series is better then him.
Early Harry says he's gòod at tracking spells.
Molly -Harry's apprentice with a fraction of the experience- tells us 10 books later that he sucks at it.
Same with Carlos, who is again, far less experienced than Harry, and yet he can pull things apart from the atomic level for no effort, and all Harry has learned to do is explode things bigger.
How about Luccio? We see her from back during her young and reckless days, and she can already do those lazer beams without a focus, whereas in Changes Harry struggles to do one with a focus.
Marcone has apparently zoomed so far past Harry in skill that he can now do something that Harry would struggle to manage after a century of dedicated study (teleportation) and he's been learning for less than a decade, and started with zero magical talent.
Literally every Magic-user in the series has absolutely rocketed past Harry in terms of skills in the past 4-5 books or so. The only thing Harry can do is make a bigger boom.
Molly's case was more that you don't strictly need another object (compass, needle, a pen etc) to use for tracking spells rather than being flatly better than him, we don't know how long Marcone has been studying for from his pov because of Namshiel's ability to train him for a year or two in a single day (and Jim isn't sure if teleportation is something Harry could be doing), Luccio was nearly a century old when we see her in that story.
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Harry is sometimes portrayed weaker or less skillful but as I said above part of that is Jim's narrative reasons and part of that is we only see it from Harry's perspective. Harry might even think some wizards are better than they are. Harry also is dealing with his own misconceptions, preconceived notions and insecurities. Any and all of that skew his view from the "truth".
Harry sees himself as weaker and less skillful, some of that is modesty and insecurity, a lot has to do with his own admission that he has been lazy over the years. That is where Molly becoming his apprentice was one of the best things that ever happened to him in his growth as a wizard. One of the huge areas where his skills have improved ten fold is his ability to make a veil.
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One of the things to remember about Marcone's new power level is that Thorned Namshiel got his ass handed to him when Harry accidentally used soulfire to create a giant hand, which Harry used to throw the demon sorcerer around like he was a rag doll. Harry won't want to exhaust himself by doing something like that again, and Thorned Namshiel will probably have a defense against the same thing happening again, but that doesn't preclude Harry from coming up with something equally, or nearly equally, devastating if less taxing.
Plus, Harry's experience with using magic is far wider than Marcone's. The Baron of Chicago won't be as easily suckered as Hannah Asher was, but when it comes to using magic, Harry should be able think outside the box and be more effective then Marcone.
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One of the things to remember about Marcone's new power level is that Thorned Namshiel got his ass handed to him when Harry accidentally used soulfire to create a giant hand, which Harry used to throw the demon sorcerer around like he was a rag doll. Harry won't want to exhaust himself by doing something like that again, and Thorned Namshiel will probably have a defense against the same thing happening again, but that doesn't preclude Harry from coming up with something equally, or nearly equally, devastating if less taxing.
Plus, Harry's experience with using magic is far wider than Marcone's. The Baron of Chicago won't be as easily suckered as Hannah Asher was, but when it comes to using magic, Harry should be able think outside the box and be more effective then Marcone.
Also they're just generally foils, Harry picks up more personal power over time while Marcone's organisation gets bigger over time. Harry starts building up his own allies? Marcone gets some personal muscle to compensate. Since Marcone has the better organisation at the moment Harry is still the stronger of the two in a duel while the fact that Marcone has tons and tons of guys with guns equalises things.
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Also they're just generally foils, Harry picks up more personal power over time while Marcone's organisation gets bigger over time. Harry starts building up his own allies? Marcone gets some personal muscle to compensate. Since Marcone has the better organisation at the moment Harry is still the stronger of the two in a duel while the fact that Marcone has tons and tons of guys with guns equalises things.
You forget, Harry is "ZaLord" and he has a huge army of the little people. The fact that he could call them up in Battleground scared the hell out of the Senior Members of the White Council who were there when he did it. They were also quite effective as fighters even if they were small.
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You forget, Harry is "ZaLord" and he has a huge army of the little people. The fact that he could call them up in Battleground scared the hell out of the Senior Members of the White Council who were there when he did it. They were also quite effective as fighters even if they were small.
And this is the second time that he's used the little folk in battle. He gave them all box cutters way back in Summer Knight. I'm not sure if the Senior Council knew about the first time but the fae would remember
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You forget, Harry is "ZaLord" and he has a huge army of the little people. The fact that he could call them up in Battleground scared the hell out of the Senior Members of the White Council who were there when he did it. They were also quite effective as fighters even if they were small.
Less forgot and more didn't care about listing about every little detail because they don't matter, the trend so far is the two staying roughly equal and in parallel.
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Less forgot and more didn't care about listing about every little detail because they don't matter, the trend so far is the two staying roughly equal and in parallel.
But they do matter, they number in the thousands and in the early hours of the battle they were critical, not just in info gathering but in battling those flying squid things. Marcone doesn't have anything like that.
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But they do matter, they number in the thousands and in the early hours of the battle they were critical, not just in info gathering but in battling those flying squid things. Marcone doesn't have anything like that.
Rock, paper, scissors. Different forces are better at certain things.
Marcone's army of gangsters was able to fend off the Huntsmen because they were an enemy that they could see and keep up with. The Little Folk couldn't have done that as well but they were perfect for scouting and stopping the squid drones.
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Rock, paper, scissors. Different forces are better at certain things.
Marcone's army of gangsters was able to fend off the Huntsmen because they were an enemy that they could see and keep up with. The Little Folk couldn't have done that as well but they were perfect for scouting and stopping the squid drones.
Without which, everyone would have been screwed! Without the Little Folk, all would have remained pinned down and blind until it was too late.
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Marcone has no magic. Namshiel has magic. If that isn't true then Jim has broken his rules. You either manifest the talent or you don't. And if you have it and if you don't use it, you lose it. The danger of using the Fallen was hashed out over and over again during Lash's run in the plot. The more you depend on them the more you are diminished. Am I misreading Jim's rules?
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Marcone has no magic. Namshiel has magic. If that isn't true then Jim has broken his rules. You either manifest the talent or you don't. And if you have it and if you don't use it, you lose it. The danger of using the Fallen was hashed out over and over again during Lash's run in the plot. The more you depend on them the more you are diminished. Am I misreading Jim's rules?
Sometimes Jim’s rules are not about what always happens but just what happens most of the time. But in this case I think the magic is Namshiel.
Namshiel should be able to teach Marcone some magic if he provides the missing bits. The power and the ability to see it. Butters could do some things with Bob helping. But what happened in battle ground was just too advanced. I am also not sure when Harry was talking to Marcone and when he talked to Namshiel. I think at the end he was talking to Namshiel because Marcone had never difficulty with long term planning.
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And this is the second time that he's used the little folk in battle. He gave them all box cutters way back in Summer Knight. I'm not sure if the Senior Council knew about the first time but the fae would remember
Third time, he also brought them along to the fight on Demonreach back in Turn Coat. Toot even 1v1'd Shagnasty for a bit.
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Harry sees himself as weaker and less skillful, some of that is modesty and insecurity, a lot has to do with his own admission that he has been lazy over the years. That is where Molly becoming his apprentice was one of the best things that ever happened to him in his growth as a wizard. One of the huge areas where his skills have improved ten fold is his ability to make a veil.
He says he was lazy, yet he also goes on and on about how he loves magic for magic's sake and does it in his spare time. Also, not sure his veil has improved. Read the one in Skin Game and the one in Fool Moon. Basically the same.
One of the things to remember about Marcone's new power level is that Thorned Namshiel got his ass handed to him when Harry accidentally used soulfire to create a giant hand, which Harry used to throw the demon sorcerer around like he was a rag doll. Harry won't want to exhaust himself by doing something like that again, and Thorned Namshiel will probably have a defense against the same thing happening again, but that doesn't preclude Harry from coming up with something equally, or nearly equally, devastating if less taxing.
Plus, Harry's experience with using magic is far wider than Marcone's. The Baron of Chicago won't be as easily suckered as Hannah Asher was, but when it comes to using magic, Harry should be able think outside the box and be more effective then Marcone.
Agreed.
1 Jim hasn't broken any of his magical rules to date... Any denarian has a battle form which is an excellent usage of shape shifting. Namshiel is simply more finesse than that. Anyone is capable of magic after all, the denarians is just filling in for the inability to sense it. I'm not particularly fond of this plot of Marcone becoming better at magic than Harry, but I don't think it breaks anything but my ability to suspend my disbelief.
He does sometimes. He also breaks his narrative rules. There are several threads on inconsistencies and such throughout. Traditionally, following the Sanderson-esque ideas a "hard" magic system is one that has detailed, clear and consistent rules similar to a science. These are explained to the reader in the narrative. A soft magic system is one that is designed to create a sense of wonder and is limited in how much detail is given to the reader. But both tend to use it to further the plot or even just the scene - it's more a problem solving or problem creating tool for the author. A "hard" magic system is a bit more believable because it gives the reader clear expectations and so we can suspend disbelief. A soft magic system can only achieve a suspension of disbelief by not having the reader think to much about the mechanics and focus on the emotion and tempo of the scene. Classic examples of a "hard" magic system is maybe Eragon, Lightbringer, Mistborn, even Codex Alera. Examples of "soft" magic systems include Harry Potter, ASOIAF, Dark Tower. Lord of the Rings could be soft but as we never get much exposition at all about it it's hard to say. Then there are the "hybrid" systems.
Jim writes his stories like they have a "hard" magic system but then he goes off and changes the rules or breaks them.
Example 1: Wards on the Tower on Demonreach. Magic has limits on how much energy can be placed in an object yet as Bob explains somehow Merlin didn't worry about that.
Example 2: Water grounds out magical energy. Doesn't bother the Fomor, Titania, or LtW. If it were so easy to shut down magic Ethniu wouldn't have been a threat.
Example 3: Circle's keep out anything spiritual. Uriel says to Dresden that the circle he creates wouldn't be an issue to him.
Example 4: Every human has the potential for magic, but not all mortals are strong enough to be Sorcerers or Wizards. These beings live for hundreds of years and have access to much greater powers and can perform more complex and powerful magic. If a mortal even has the slightest hint beyond the normal, a practioner can tell by touching them. Harry has definitely made contact with Marcone over the years and got nothing. Yet when Marcone takes up Namshiel's Coin he has enough power to outclass Quintus Cassius and perhaps even Tessa. Even Nicodemus doesn't appear to just become a Sorcerer just because he has a Coin. Yet Marcone seems to be almost as strong as Harry and perhaps more skillful. Certainly his knowledge base will end up being deeper and broader, and Marcone is FAR more pragmatic and power hungry.
There are more but there's a few to get you started. Jim's fine to break or change things if he needs to but you can't really pretend it's a "hard" magic system if it isn't. Especially at the upper levels where according to Jim if you have enough power you can basically rewrite reality however you wish.
Marcone has no magic. Namshiel has magic. If that isn't true then Jim has broken his rules. You either manifest the talent or you don't. And if you have it and if you don't use it, you lose it. The danger of using the Fallen was hashed out over and over again during Lash's run in the plot. The more you depend on them the more you are diminished. Am I misreading Jim's rules?
Except all the Fallen have magic. That's kind of the point isn't it? They are still Fallen after all. I agree that Marcone suddenly having magic is weird and seems to break the rules. I don't think the Fallen can really give you anything you don't have, a part from knowledge. That was the implication with Hellfire after all. If the Fallen could just give out magic then all the Denarians would be far more dangerous and effective - as they seemed to be in Death Masks. I mean, the Genoskwa basically took the place of Ursiel and Jim actually both foreshadowed it in Skin Game. I probably should have seen the return of Ursiel coming and being the Coin for the Genoskwa. Imagine if all the Fallen were shape-shifting nightmares with the sorcerous capability of at least Mavra if not Corpsetaker or Cowl. Dresden and co. would be long dead (except for the Knights - they have that special "we're holy so no matter what everything's equal" thing).
Sometimes Jim’s rules are not about what always happens but just what happens most of the time. But in this case I think the magic is Namshiel.
Namshiel should be able to teach Marcone some magic if he provides the missing bits. The power and the ability to see it. Butters could do some things with Bob helping. But what happened in battle ground was just too advanced. I am also not sure when Harry was talking to Marcone and when he talked to Namshiel. I think at the end he was talking to Namshiel because Marcone had never difficulty with long term planning.
See above what I said to Morris, but in general I agree. I think it just means that we have to assume that Marcone has somehow had hidden latent talent all along, and managed to hide it from Harry. Namshiel is just getting the absolute best out of him.
You can tell when he talks to Namshiel or Marcone as quite literally the voice changes. Dresden was talking to Marcone. Doesn't mean Namshiel wasn't listening and maybe even influencing Marcone.
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Breaking the plot isn't breaking the rules if your talking about say, the car outside bock's changing or Morts house switching around..
But #1 not sure which bit your referring to here? But DR is already breaking space/time so idk how effective reality is at defining it. Perhaps it's a domain unto itself (like the train station in the matrix, the rules are not the same)
#2 water grounds out magic, what grounds out most forms of magic, but why would it ground out itself? The fomor are water mages. They work with it specifically. This is an addendum to the rules not a deviation from them.
#3 this us specifically covered in FM, archangels require a greater circle to contain, my assumption is because they have a human in the mix but idk. Point being a regular circle cannot contain one, and Harry wasn't even using anything physically real to form the circle as leverage. It would have directly been will against will. Even if Harry thought to make a greater circle in his mind someone like Uriel can still break right through Harry. Which at the end of the day is all a circle is, an extension and manifestation of someone's will.
#4 we really don't know enough about the situation to say for sure. Like I said I don't like Marcone being a magical powerhouse but that's more to do with his skill level than him actually having magic. However we know of one situation where right now there is no magic, and yet magic could grow. Charity. She doesn't register as a practitioner to Harry, because she's not. But isn't Woj that she could take up her power again even though it wouldn't be to a great effect? (because of her person power always being small) Marcone made a choice when he was younger imo, perhaps part of that choice locked away his magical potential?
*The choice I refer to is when the Beckett shooting happened. He used to have Summer Hunter's green eyes before they became dollars bills. Perhaps Marcone had some supernatural potential he never knew he squandered in his youth?
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Breaking the plot isn't breaking the rules if your talking about say, the car outside bock's changing or Morts house switching around..
But #1 not sure which bit your referring to here? But DR is already breaking space/time so idk how effective reality is at defining it. Perhaps it's a domain unto itself (like the train station in the matrix, the rules are not the same)
#2 water grounds out magic, what grounds out most forms of magic, but why would it ground out itself? The fomor are water mages. They work with it specifically. This is an addendum to the rules not a deviation from them.
#3 this us specifically covered in FM, archangels require a greater circle to contain, my assumption is because they have a human in the mix but idk. Point being a regular circle cannot contain one, and Harry wasn't even using anything physically real to form the circle as leverage. It would have directly been will against will. Even if Harry thought to make a greater circle in his mind someone like Uriel can still break right through Harry. Which at the end of the day is all a circle is, an extension and manifestation of someone's will.
#4 we really don't know enough about the situation to say for sure. Like I said I don't like Marcone being a magical powerhouse but that's more to do with his skill level than him actually having magic. However we know of one situation where right now there is no magic, and yet magic could grow. Charity. She doesn't register as a practitioner to Harry, because she's not. But isn't Woj that she could take up her power again even though it wouldn't be to a great effect? (because of her person power always being small) Marcone made a choice when he was younger imo, perhaps part of that choice locked away his magical potential?
*The choice I refer to is when the Beckett shooting happened. He used to have Summer Hunter's green eyes before they became dollars bills. Perhaps Marcone had some supernatural potential he never knew he squandered in his youth?
I wasn't referring to the apparent universe inconsistencies such as Mort's house - these could be parallel universe hints. Merely Jim retconning and reinventing the origins of the Black Court or Drakul, or saying Ortega is 600 hundred years old when he can only be 500, Mab being as powerful as an Archangel according to Lea (even when she clearly would know that isn't true) etc.
#1 Indeed, Demonreach isn't bound to the normal rules. But that's the point too. If you create rules and then just say "you can break them when it suits" then it isn't really a hard magic system. Dresden is more a hybrid system.
#2 Energy is energy, so it shouldn't matter. But Ethniu isn't a water mage, why not just blast her with a water canon etc? Point is, water is only as effective at stopping magic as Jim needs it to be for the story.
#3 You're confusing the two circles. In Changes, Harry creates a circle around him to keep spiritual energy out (i.e. Uriel). This is something done over and over and the rules are consistent in the books. Harry wasn't trying to bind or trap Uriel inside a circle, he was keeping Uriel on the outside of his own circle. But while you're discussing it - the point of Free Will is that it gives you the ability to contest the Will of anything. Harry contested MW (who is at the Uriel level). So his chance isn't great for trapping Uriel, but not zero either. That's an important distinction. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to trap Ethniu.
#4 The point that I and others are making is that you can only fill a glass to the top, once you get to the top that's it. Even with Namshiel should Marcone really have as much magical brawn as he does? He never seemed to have much foundation to begin with. But as I said earlier, there are multiple different ways to explain it that still fit within the rules. It's the new canon now. See, your Charity example is exactly the kind of inconsistency I am talking about. She has such little magic right now Harry can't even sense it should he touch her (although come to think of it I can hardly remember too many instances early on where Harry and her touch). The WOJ that you mention then contradicts that, as it implies that she still has enough potential to take up the Art. Jim forgets his own rules, or changes them as he needs.
Certainly an interesting thought about his origins. I believe there was a theory long ago about the Erlking being his father...
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I don't see Marcone as a magical powerhouse. The things he did take knowledge and practice but not necessarily a lot of power.
He really only did three things.
He made shields that fell apart from one blow from Ethniu. Harry even comments that they're not strong but they are multi-layered and he can do them fast.
He did the teleport. It took him a few moments to set it up and it was fixed to teo points fairly near to one another Again Harry knows that this magic exists, but he doesn't have the knowledge to pull it off. It must be within his power or the WC wouldn't have blocked the books from him until it trusted his decision making .
Finally, he made the teacup. Again what he did takes knowledge, not power. It's not much different from Ramirez's dissolve attack which Harry says takes little energy.
Frankly I think Marcone is on the same magic level as Butters. Namshiel however is a better teacher than Bob. He has more knowledge and is able to put that knowledge directly into Marcone's thoughts instead of verbally. Butters had Bob for just under two years and couldn't use him 24/7. Namshiel has been with Marcone for 6 years and can teach him in his sleep.
Lash was able to take perfect memories, interpret languages and show Harry how to break spells and gave Harry all this in dribbles as they contested with each other. Marcone willingly took up the coin. He is getting everything Namshiel is willing to give him as fast as he can handle it and Namshiel is supposedly the best magician of the Denarians.
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#1 I think it's just a misunderstanding of the rules. Here for instance, it's Woj that with enough magic you can do anything. Merlin clearly had access to godlike power there.
#2 do we know Ethniu doesn't have an affinity for water magic? She does live under water I believe?
#3 true. The point with Uriel being if he wanted to test Harry's will he knew he could shatter it before Harry could summon his against him.
#4 with considerations to his denarian status and and extreme amount of cooperation with his fallen, I don't think he's too overpowered. It was his knowledge and ability with it that shocked me. I personally think he ironed out an actual deal with Namshiel so that what he got was very specific and unabridged. Namshiel aided him to the max for the showdown.
Another thing though... Is I think he was tapped by the end. And that's part of the equation of why he didn't fight Dresden for the eye, he would have had to resort to purely physical attacks and it's not what he's been preparing for with Dresden.. what he did with Ethniu, is exactly what he's been preparing for. To fight an overpowering opponent using minimal effort. As we've seen with Carlos recently, high level magic doesn't necessarily cost a lot to do.
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Except all the Fallen have magic. That's kind of the point isn't it? They are still Fallen after all. I agree that Marcone suddenly having magic is weird and seems to break the rules. I don't think the Fallen can really give you anything you don't have, a part from knowledge. That was the implication with Hellfire after all.
If any one of the Fallen would or could have been a magical talent then Nicodemus would have been one. He was alive since the time of Christ, and that's a long time to practice. Like Harry they can't be doing dirty work all the time. Hell, Nic and his SO made time to bump uglies and have a child. But the story has always been that they can't directly use their Angelic power, so in the case of Thorned Namshiel he had to call on Lucifer to make the barrier in Small Favor. Namshiel was always an outlier. Jim pulls him out of thin air, cripples him and finally kills him, with absolutely indication of who or what his host was. No other Fallen has two names, unless I'm having a senior moment this morning. Nor, in as much as I can remember, has any angel or angelic character had two names.#1 I think it's just a misunderstanding of the rules. Here for instance, it's Woj that with enough magic you can do anything. Merlin clearly had access to godlike power there.
Merlin is the International Man Of Mystery. Or an Urban Legend. As such, you can attribute to him anything that comes to mind. But ending up with Godlike powers in the era of the Round Table seems like a stretch. And assuming that he was taught this magic by someone like Vadderung leaves you to explain why such a powerful character would give it away for free, when in the present they won't tell him diddly without asking him to pull out his metaphysical wallet and pony up. Or tell him to shut up and wait for it.
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“Thorned” is not a name, it is just an adjective telling something about Namshiel. I do not think all fallen are that good at magic or at least they don’t bother with it.
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He says he was lazy, yet he also goes on and on about how he loves magic for magic's sake and does it in his spare time. Also, not sure his veil has improved. Read the one in Skin Game and the one in Fool Moon. Basically the same.
No, perhaps the how to etc is the same, but Harry's skill at doing them has gotten much better
since Fool Moon. He didn't like doing them and flat out said he wasn't good at them. Now he does
them without thinking.
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Harry is constantly described as a fanatical magic nerd by literally everyone except Harry himself. Saying he coasts in any way directly contradicts the books. Harry thinks of himself as a magical blunt object, but that's just his own perception of himself—and it's what Mab is trying to get him to embrace with her "training".
Especially in the earlier books, we get lots of focus on how Harry's only hobby is perfecting his magical skills, and how he's a magical expert. Whenever his relative skill level compared to other wizards comes up, it is pointed out that he's considered "too young to be taken seriously". At the same time, we see him constantly tinker with and come up with new spells, the occasional potion, better, shinier enchantments, and hellishly complicated voodoo representations of entire cities.
Thinking that Harry doesn't focus on training and learning means fundamentally misunderstanding the character. He's obsessed.
I agree with all of this. To add to it, Harry is also often described as better than others or more advanced than most at his age. Most of the ones I can remember are in the middle of the series. Luccio is impressed with Sue (and so is the Erlking). Ramirez admits Harry's a better wizard than him in a fight, after Harry has been tortured a good bit. Bob is impressed with Little Chicago. Elaine is impressed with his shield bracelet. He's a more versatile wizard than Ramirez even if Ramirez is more fine tuned (again). Hanna Ascher is really good at one thing. Fire.
And yet we constantly get shown how every magic user in the series is better then him.
...
Literally every Magic-user in the series has absolutely rocketed past Harry in terms of skills in the past 4-5 books or so. The only thing Harry can do is make a bigger boom.
The only thing we get constantly shown is Harry doesn't have the best control or focus, but it gets better in almost every book. Marcone is the only one who isn't on the Senior Council who looks like he just plain outclasses Harry. And Harry has repeatedly described Marcone as the scariest and most competent opponent he has.
Early Harry says he's gòod at tracking spells.
Molly -Harry's apprentice with a fraction of the experience- tells us 10 books later that he sucks at it.
That's because he had the training wheels on for Molly. Harry does something similar to what Molly's doing in SF and Something Borrowed. Molly assumes he can't do it because she hasn't seen him do it.
Same with Carlos, who is again, far less experienced than Harry, and yet he can pull things apart from the atomic level for no effort, and all Harry has learned to do is explode things bigger.
Carlos is more fine tuned and really good at that one trick, but he admits Harry's better in DB and Harry thinks about how Carlos is more of a just a fighter than Harry in WN.
How about Luccio? We see her from back during her young and reckless days, and she can already do those lazer beams without a focus, whereas in Changes Harry struggles to do one with a focus.
Luccio was at least in her late 70's the first time, chronologically, we see her.
Jim: “She can barely remember the War of 1812 (which puts her in the same category with most modern American students), but it was of no interest to her at the time, growing up in southern Italy.”
...
May 31, 1883: A Fistful of Warlocks
his own admission that he has been lazy over the years.
When does he claim that he is lazy?
Marcone has no magic. Namshiel has magic. If that isn't true then Jim has broken his rules. You either manifest the talent or you don't. And if you have it and if you don't use it, you lose it. ... Am I misreading Jim's rules?
I think you are. (I could be wrong because he's been vague on this point). I'm pretty sure everyone has some level of magical talent. The biggest thing that separates practitioners, especially small time practitioners, from everyone else is the ability to sense magic.
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When does he claim that he is lazy?
He doesn't have to, he just doesn't apply himself as much as he might. He is like a lot of bright people, especially when they are young, but he is learning.
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He doesn't have to [claim to be lazy].
So he didn't?
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I think you are. (I could be wrong because he's been vague on this point). I'm pretty sure everyone has some level of magical talent. The biggest thing that separates practitioners, especially small time practitioners, from everyone else is the ability to sense magic.
Charity had magic and gave it up. So use it or lose it. But no one in the books ever gained magic in their 40's. None of Molly's family, not Butters nor anyone else. No minor practitioners ever made the jump to the big time. When Harry soul gazed him there was no indication that he was a practitioner. And Jim has Harry name him as a vanilla mortal. Jim can do as he pleases, he gets the paycheck, but it is what it is.
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Charity had magic and gave it up. So use it or lose it. But no one in the books ever gained magic in their 40's. None of Molly's family, not Butters nor anyone else. No minor practitioners ever made the jump to the big time. When Harry soul gazed him there was no indication that he was a practitioner. And Jim has Harry name him as a vanilla mortal. Jim can do as he pleases, he gets the paycheck, but it is what it is.
The fallen do give the hosts powers they don’t had before, not just a little knowledge and education, and the kind of power differs from coin to coin.
They can do things with their fallen they could not do before and in Marcones case that is some magic stuff.
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How old was Victor Sells? His power seems to come out of nowhere or increase all of a sudden.
If Charity had been possessed of a monster gift, of [sic] if she’d been constantly around and involved in magic during the course of the pregnancy, it would have been more difficult for her to reduce it to practically zero like that. But instead, she was making a deliberate and willful choice to deny her children’s potential a chance to find a chance to take root and bloom.
Maybe her kids, if they wanted, could go out and work hard and stir up a latent talent. A watershed sort of life event might do something along those lines–shake them up enough to jump-start a dormant gift. But then, that’s most of humanity in the Dresden Files, really. Everyone has some kind of ability, if they just want to look hard enough to find it. That’s where the Alpha’s came from.
Emphasis added.
Having the magic nerd fallen angel is probably the exact sort of thing mentioned in that paragraph to jump-start a dormant gift. Combine that with the efficient use vs. raw power aspect, and I don't find Marcone being impressive surprising at all.
We've also seen how quickly Harry can learn things from Lash, the shadow of a Denarian he's choosing to not utilize. If Marcone is fully cooperating with Namshiel, he might not even need to learn magic. Namshiel might just be able to do spells for Marcone like Lash did Sumerian and Etruscan for Marcone.
There's a lot of relevant WoJ quotes in the link below. Ctrl+f "talent" and you'll find them easily. Jim even talks about the use or loose it and what it would take to try to get it back. Like I said before, he's equivocal.
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/
I know you avoid WoJ and discount it a lot. That's fine. Death of the Author and all that. However, in the absence of the books being dispositive in the other direction, I generally credit it.
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@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?
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@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?
There are some things you can do even if you are vanilla if you have the right tools and recipe to pull them off. Everyone has enough juice for that, that is why some things are kept secret and locked up. Calling up an Outsider doesn't require a lot of juice, just the right ritual. The same with the plague curse, without the Shroud [even it was a copy] provided juice to power the curse, I don't think Nic needed any magical talent for that, just knowledge. Same with the circle for Butters in Dead Beat, once Harry showed him how to make it, it didn't take much to power it. That is why messing with such things are dangerous to play with, like keeping loaded guns sitting around, it doesn't take a lot of power to pull a trigger or knowledge to set one off.
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If I thought Jim kept good notes and was actually aware of what he had written over time I might give more weight to what he says versus what he puts on the page. It's one thing to write a six book series, quite another to write a 26 book series. Is this point in dispute?
In terms of magic the WOJ's are so vague as to permit magic from anyone or everyone. I'm not disputing that. But whatever talents the Fallen have act through their hosts connection to the coins. They don't imbue any permanent change in the host. So if a host uses magic given to him by the Fallen then if he puts down the coin does he retain the magic? Can Marcone launch magic fireballs if he lays down the coin? The canon that Jim has laid down is that the Fallen corrupt with power and that by giving up the coin that you give up the power. And now we are to believe that Marcone up and exercised advanced magic after a lifetime of not having it, because, why?@morris Nic does have magical chops though. He pulls off that plague curse by simply having a battery and he uses the barbarus curse against Harry too. Why he doesn't use magic can be contested, but he is capable.
You somehow assume the power Merlin got was free...?
He pulls off the Plague Curse by the use of a ritual just like Madge. Only two Fallen have used magic directly, Cassius and Namshiel. Nic says this at the end of Small Favor.so Tessa has lost her sorcery teacher
This would seem to imply that all the Fallen don't know human magic out of the box. I don't assume anything about the source of his knowledge precisely, but one popular theory is that Vadderung trained Merlin. I mean he certainly didn't go to Hogwarts. Vadderung has only given one thing up for free.
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Cassius lost his everlasting youth and started to age when he lost the coin but Harry can probably still use that trick to suppress pain Lash learned him.
All the fallen seem to have very specific things they can or are willing to give, lend or teach. They have different characters.
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Cassius lost his everlasting youth and started to age when he lost the coin but Harry can probably still use that trick to suppress pain Lash learned him.
All the fallen seem to have very specific things they can or are willing to give, lend or teach. They have different characters.
Yeah, I don't think for Namshiel to do his thing, Marcone has to have any magical talent. The fact that he has been a member of the Accords and around magical types enough to understand what's going on, is enough for Namshiel to use him for his purposes.
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If I thought Jim kept good notes and was actually aware of what he had written over time I might give more weight to what he says versus what he puts on the page. It's one thing to write a six book series, quite another to write a 26 book series. Is this point in dispute?
And that's why I don't say you are wrong, but instead that I'm of a different opinion and only think you are wrong. :)
But whatever talents the Fallen have act through their hosts connection to the coins. They don't imbue any permanent change in the host. So if a host uses magic given to him by the Fallen then if he puts down the coin does he retain the magic?
A problem with coming to any firm conclusions on this one is that we really only have Harry's experience with a shadow and Cassius's aging. Cassius's magic doesn't seem to be any different than when he had the coin. He just doesn't have eternal youth and the Denarian battle form. Harry had a couple of things from Lash that are gone and some things that aren't. He doesn't have a photographic memory or the ability to understand and speak Sumerian or Etruscan. He does have the pain management technique. (I know I'm leaving stuff out). So we know some things stay and others don't. Cassius's aging is actually an example of both. If the advantage went away immediately, he'd be like the guy who "chose poorly" from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. If the advantage just stayed, he would have started aging normally, not at an accelerated rate.
So what do we do with this? We guess. I tend to think that if Marcone has the coin for long enough, and he practices magic long enough, he will develop as an extremely skilled minor talent. I don't think he'd ever have a lot of juice (excepting things like eating ghosts for power), but I do think he'd develop something.
I do think Marcone is the type of person with a strong enough will and the planning skills that he will extract enough information from Namshiel that he will be able to get along without the coin. Both methods of acquiring an independent source of magic and, if he holds the coin long enough, a source of eternal youth. Marcone isn't one to remain dependent on any one source of power.
Nothing in the books really explains how magic talent really works. Is it a muscle everyone has to some degree? If the supernatural was widely known, would most people be very minor practitioners?
Same with the circle for Butters in Dead Beat, once Harry showed him how to make it, it didn't take much to power it.
At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.
one popular theory is that Vadderung trained Merlin. I mean he certainly didn't go to Hogwarts. Vadderung has only given one thing up for free.
It's stated in the books that Merlin was taught by Odin. I can't remember if it was one of the legends listed by Harry about him, or something Eb said. If Eb said it, I'm going with it's about as confirmed as anything else in the books.
What was the only thing that Vadderung gave up for free? He gave Harry some free advice in Changes and then he helped at Chichen Itza. (On a side note, just because Harry doesn't pay a price, doesn't mean it was free or without a price. Like how Harry doesn't always pay a price for Lea's help because Margaret did).
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What was the only thing that Vadderung gave up for free?
I looked down at my hands. “What’s it going to cost me to find out?”
“Chichén Itzá,” Vadderung said.
I jerked my head up in surprise. I stared at the man for a moment. “I . . .”
“Don’t understand?” Vadderung asked. “It isn’t complicated. I’m on your side, boy.”
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Vadderung can give whatever he likes to give, he is not fae.
Traditionally he will help heroes to greatness and arrange their killing in battle so they can go to Valhalla.
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At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.
Harry tells Butters anyone can do it, a circle keeps out magic. It isn't really doing magic, because Butters argues that he doesn't know magic, and Harry tells him it really isn't. Maybe the best way to think of it is it is a threshold, only in the round and protects the one standing inside it. It only keeps out magic though, physical things can still cross it according to Harry, so it was the most basic of circles.
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Harry tells Butters anyone can do it, a circle keeps out magic. It isn't really doing magic, because Butters argues that he doesn't know magic, and Harry tells him it really isn't. Maybe the best way to think of it is it is a threshold, only in the round and protects the one standing inside it. It only keeps out magic though, physical things can still cross it according to Harry, so it was the most basic of circles.
Yeah, while setting up a magic circle that way is obviously "doing magic," it's also not doing magic in the sense of having any innate magical abilities. Jim hasn't really provided a vocabulary to distinguish different forms of magic, but I think the there are clearly different kinds. For example, the Alphas are doing something different from Harry (or even LtW), and Bob is doing yet another thing.
I'd say we could call what Harry, and even small time and focused practitioners, do wizardry. For example Hanna Ascher is doing what Harry does, but only with fire magic. It's implied that there are plenty of smaller practitioners that can do all sorts of stuff, but don't have the power, knowledge, and/or experience to be considered a wizard. Then there are people like the Alphas who can do one thing and can't do anything else. (I think it's stated or implied in the Paranet Papers that learning to be werewolves cut them off from being able to do other kinds of magic. I don't really remember, but my brother says so, and I have no reason to doubt him). Then there are a variety of magical creatures that do supernatural stuff, i.e., magic. But that stuff is pretty clearly not what Harry's doing.
This debate about Denarians is a good example. They are all clearly doing magic, but most of them are also clearly not slinging a good variety of spells like a wizard. Is that because they can't or because they just choose not to?
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At first, you'd think this would answer my question, but it doesn't. It's Butter's blood that powers the circle. A practitioner can power the circle with the power of his mind. In the strictest sense, Butters is doing magic, but I don't think that qualifies him as a practitioner.
Does it, is putting up a threshold in your house doing magic? Apparently it stops a lot of supernatural stuff from passing through if there a strong sense of "family" established living there. The people who live there have no magical powers, yet their living there has a magical effect.
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Does it, is putting up a threshold in your house doing magic? Apparently it stops a lot of supernatural stuff from passing through if there a strong sense of "family" established living there. The people who live there have no magical powers, yet their living there has a magical effect.
We can't rely on the circle=threshold analogy. We know where a circle comes from. Wizards in the DF don't know where a threshold comes from. A circle is power+will. That's what Harry teaches Butters. It's Butters' will plus his blood. A threshold might be will made manifest. If it was it would be the same as a threshold, but we don't know.
A magic circle is definitely magic.
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We can't rely on the circle=threshold analogy. We know where a circle comes from. Wizards in the DF don't know where a threshold comes from. A circle is power+will. That's what Harry teaches Butters. It's Butters' will plus his blood. A threshold might be will made manifest. If it was it would be the same as a threshold, but we don't know.
A magic circle is definitely magic.
Yet Harry says it isn't. Or perhaps he meant that it is so basic that anyone can do it.
"Harry. I don't know magic."
"Anyone can do this
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Blood has power, all blood. In blood rites they bleed Shiro to power the curse. Jim has a thing for blood. Therefore he uses it a lot. But if anybody can do magic then magic isn't special anymore. So Butters ability to empower a magic circle is consistent with that without him needing to be able to do serious magic.
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Let me just say that this is the only part of the plot that I completely hated. Well that and Marcone manifesting a Banner, a few chapters after Mab told Harry that this banner is an aspect of being a winter knight that only a few have had the strength to manifest. What... If you have enough people willing to follow you into battle you immediately gain intellectus over them? Doesn't make sense. Especially since most of Marcone's followers are hired muscle, not believers in a cause.
A minor talent after some training by a Fallen is more in line with what we've seen so far from the series. We've seen in Even Hand that Marcone has had sufficient counter measures against the eventual attack by Harry. Some wards by Gard and special ammunition, and according to the time line, this is after he's had access to the coin. And now he's a magical heavy hitter with nigh immortality as well? Not to mention that even the Knights of the cross will fall by the hundreds to him if they ever faced him, as they're obliged to give him a chance to repent.
On a slight tangent, this makes Hendricks' sacrifice seem pointless, had he the relevant information, he'd still be alive by now.
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I do not think he is the magical heavy hitter.
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@Fcrate, a couple of things about that.
I cannot vouch for what a corrupted Marcone could become in the future, but for now, he wouldn't try to do the "repent" thing with the Knights. He is too...honest for that. At least, for now. And in the battle he was on the same side of them, so for now, they have no reason to come directly after him.
Hendricks, yes, I thought the same. Still, Marcone can still die. He is not Nicodemus. Only, it is more difficult to kill him now that he has the coin.
And I did not like the banner thing either, but I don't think is all about hired muscle. I think the people following Marcone Banner were like Harry's, common people that decided they rather fight for their loved ones instead of run.
And I want to know if Marcone's banner was bigger than Harry or not.
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Before I respond to the quotes below, I just want to say that I'm not getting into the whole, "Why is Marcone such a heavy magical hitter?" argument and its corollary, "Is Jim breaking his own rules? (Though as I read that scene I did find it somewhat puzzling and maybe even somewhat annoying.) I'm going to want to see Jim answer a question about this during a future interview or Reddit AMA. And then I'm going to listen very carefully to his answer, because there are times when Jim can give really clear reasons for something and other times when his answers can be on the fuzzy side. Now, one reason for Jim to give a fuzzy reply is that he doesn't want to give too much away, especially something that may become important further into the story. However, in this case, should Jim give a fuzzy answer then I would lean towards the possibility that he is fudging his own rules with Marcone. That's just something to consider should a future interviewer or Reddit questioner put this question to Jim.
@Fcrate, a couple of things about that.
I cannot vouch for what a corrupted Marcone could become in the future, but for now, he wouldn't try to do the "repent" thing with the Knights. He is too...honest for that. At least, for now. And in the battle he was on the same side of them, so for now, they have no reason to come directly after him.
My feelings exactly.
Hendricks, yes, I thought the same.
I hate to say this, but my guess is Mr. Hendricks was killed off as a writing convenience rather than as a logical part of the story; and I don't really like that, because (on the second reading) it felt somewhat artificial to me. The writing convenience is pretty simple. Marcone doesn't need a bodyguard any longer. In fact, other than as a liaison to Vadderung / Odin, Marcone doesn't need Ms. Gard around either.
Here's one example of Hendricks' death that would have been a logical part of the story. Mr. Hendricks reacts badly when he finds out his boss is working with a fallen angel. (I'm assuming he didn't know. And yes, we all know that Hendricks was already working with a mass murderer, but even violent criminals can be believers and regular church goers.) When Mr. Hendricks finds out and objects to Marcone's new business partner, Marcone kills him in reply; showing us that Thorned Namshiel is now in the driver's seat and making the major decisions. However, that would be more feasible in a series of novels called "The Rise and Fall of Gentleman John Marcone," but John Marcone is not the focus of the story. So, it's much easier for Jim to strip down Marcone and make him a direct threat in his own right, rather than have him rely on hired muscle and Ms. Gard's potentially wonky magical weapons.
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I am 100% sure that Namshiel is not in the driver's seat for now. Marcone wouldn't kill Hendricks. But it is true that the scene felt a little artificial, with Marcone not even blinking. But...apparently there is a WoJ that we should keep reading that he said when talking about Murph's death. Perhaps there is something planned on Hendricks too.
And yes, I know I am reiterative, but in Monsters, it is weird that Grey talks about the Eihenjaren bodyguard, no mention of Hendricks. Perhaps there is some foreshadowing or something else.
I know it has been discussed how catholic Murphy can be an eihenjar. Was Hendricks a catholic too? I think so. Perhaps they both have an special treatment.
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I hate to say this, but my guess is Mr. Hendricks was killed off as a writing convenience rather than as a logical part of the story; and I don't really like that, because (on the second reading) it felt somewhat artificial to me. The writing convenience is pretty simple. Marcone doesn't need a bodyguard any longer. In fact, other than as a liaison to Vadderung / Odin, Marcone doesn't need Ms. Gard around either.
Here's one example of Hendricks' death that would have been a logical part of the story. Mr. Hendricks reacts badly when he finds out his boss is working with a fallen angel. (I'm assuming he didn't know. And yes, we all know that Hendricks was already working with a mass murderer, but even violent criminals can be believers and regular church goers.) When Mr. Hendricks finds out and objects to Marcone's new business partner, Marcone kills him in reply; showing us that Thorned Namshiel is now in the driver's seat and making the major decisions. However, that would be more feasible in a series of novels called "The Rise and Fall of Gentleman John Marcone," but John Marcone is not the focus of the story. So, it's much easier for Jim to strip down Marcone and make him a direct threat in his own right, rather than have him rely on hired muscle and Ms. Gard's potentially wonky magical weapons.
My guess on why Hendricks died is to match Murphy dying.
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I am 100% sure that Namshiel is not in the driver's seat for now.
Harry would have detected it if Marcone was just a sock puppet but Marcone leaning on Namshiel’s magic is entirely possible.
Marcone wouldn't kill Hendricks. But it is true that the scene felt a little artificial, with Marcone not even blinking. But...apparently there is a WoJ that we should keep reading that he said when talking about Murph's death. Perhaps there is something planned on Hendricks too.
And yes, I know I am reiterative, but in Monsters, it is weird that Grey talks about the Eihenjaren bodyguard, no mention of Hendricks. Perhaps there is some foreshadowing or something else.
For Grey Hendricks was just a normal human and Marcone has many of them.
I know it has been discussed how catholic Murphy can be an eihenjar. Was Hendricks a catholic too? I think so. Perhaps they both have an special treatment.
You an do a lot of business during lunch with Uriel. You just need an invitation.
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Harry would have detected it if Marcone was just a sock puppet but Marcone leaning on Namshiel’s magic is entirely possible.
Possible, but I think Marcone is leaning on Namshiel's magic 100%. I also think for the moment it is to Namshiel's advantage to let Marcone call the shots, not unlike Nic and Andriel.
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I think a big problem is - we have trouble comparing powers.
Anduriel is able to listen to ANY shadow. ANY. Meanwhile Namshiel is able to spin up some ponystyle shields and a very complex but maybe not that power-using teleportation.
Who's the stronger fallen angel there? No idea.
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I think a big problem is - we have trouble comparing powers.
Anduriel is able to listen to ANY shadow. ANY. Meanwhile Namshiel is able to spin up some ponystyle shields and a very complex but maybe not that power-using teleportation.
Who's the stronger fallen angel there? No idea.
I don't think strength of the Fallen Angel is the issue, I think it more of the agenda of said Fallen Angel. I seem to remember, I think it was Michael who said Nic, or whoever was in charge of tempting with the coins would match the Fallen with the personality of the host, making manipulation much easier. Battle of Chicago, Marcone at the end of the day loves Chicago, so
he'd go along with Namshiel's plans with no problem. At some point though I wonder if he will balk like Harry eventually did?
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Well for better or worse, Marcone is a Sorcerer as well as a Denarian. Gard is apparently going to be a smokescreen now, since he doesn't need her for the purpose that she existed for and her romance is dead. And Marcone now has a really ugly avatar, Spiney Boy. I guess the Marcone story line is feature complete.
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My guess on why Hendricks died is to match Murphy dying.
That too. However, unless we get some future exposition from Marcone about the importance of his relationship with Mr. Hendricks; something about loyalty and that Mr. Hendricks was the only person Marcone fully trusted, then Murphy's death is of more importance and a much bigger loss to Harry. For now, I'm seeing Mr. Hendricks' death as no more than the loss of a highly competent and reliable employee for Marcone.
Perhaps at a later date we will find out it was more. One more thing that isolated Marcone and nudged him further in the direction of relying on Thorned Namshiel. I think Marcone is headed for a big fall, and that is why I see this as a possibility.
I don't think strength of the Fallen Angel is the issue, I think it more of the agenda of said Fallen Angel. I seem to remember, I think it was Michael who said Nic, or whoever was in charge of tempting with the coins would match the Fallen with the personality of the host, making manipulation much easier. Battle of Chicago, Marcone at the end of the day loves Chicago, so
he'd go along with Namshiel's plans with no problem. At some point though I wonder if he will balk like Harry eventually did?
Really? I suppose it's possible, but based on his previous words and actions I think John Marcone is a perfect example of "The Territorial Imperative" (book by Robert Audrey) in action.
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Hendricks died... Because when Harry storms Valhalla for murphy's soul he's gonna need some inside help from gard.
Funnily, as I see Marcone as king Arthur that would make hendricks and gard Lancelot and Guin.. think this is a turning point for Gard to want to topple his kingdom.(oh but there are a few variations of course.. )
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Really? I suppose it's possible, but based on his previous words and actions I think John Marcone is a perfect example of "The Territorial Imperative" (book by Robert Audrey) in action.
Maybe, but I think Marcone sees things his own way for his own gain. So far the partnership has worked out that way, but it may not always do that. No, Marcone isn't going to break away or try to on moral grounds, but because he does like to have things his way.
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Hendricks died... Because when Harry storms Valhalla for murphy's soul he's gonna need some inside help from gard.
I actually like that :)
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I actually like that :)
Please no... They would be.... Ugh.
On topic, I still have no explanation why Namshiel can sling so much power around using a "plain old vanilla" man like Harry describes Marcone. If the Fallen could do that then they'll not need any practitioners to carry them around. Supposedly, most what they can do is teaching techniques and turbo boost using Hellfire, so the energy isn't coming from them, but from the host. Remember that Tessa was described as a sorceress. With presumably centuries of tutoring from Namshiel. Still, her combat repertoire was quite limited. Harry soulgazed Marcone and shook his hand. Nothing.
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Please no... They would be.... Ugh.
On topic, I still have no explanation why Namshiel can sling so much power around using a "plain old vanilla" man like Harry describes Marcone. If the Fallen could do that then they'll not need any practitioners to carry them around. Supposedly, most what they can do is teaching techniques and turbo boost using Hellfire, so the energy isn't coming from them, but from the host. Remember that Tessa was described as a sorceress. With presumably centuries of tutoring from Namshiel. Still, her combat repertoire was quite limited. Harry soulgazed Marcone and shook his hand. Nothing.
One answer could be that all humans have the battery but that all humans have different wiring that determines how the individual taps the battery, the birthright part. Namshiel ability might be in being able to put in temporary jumpers to connect to the battery.
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Please no... They would be.... Ugh.
On topic, I still have no explanation why Namshiel can sling so much power around using a "plain old vanilla" man like Harry describes Marcone. If the Fallen could do that then they'll not need any practitioners to carry them around. Supposedly, most what they can do is teaching techniques and turbo boost using Hellfire, so the energy isn't coming from them, but from the host. Remember that Tessa was described as a sorceress. With presumably centuries of tutoring from Namshiel. Still, her combat repertoire was quite limited. Harry soulgazed Marcone and shook his hand. Nothing.
But they do need plain old vanilla humans to carry them around. Without them they are useless coins in a sack. However once they touch and then gain access to the brains of their chosen, they take over. That is why Harry was so unusual and why Michael at first didn't believe him,
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Please no... They would be.... Ugh.
On topic, I still have no explanation why Namshiel can sling so much power around using a "plain old vanilla" man like Harry describes Marcone. If the Fallen could do that then they'll not need any practitioners to carry them around. Supposedly, most what they can do is teaching techniques and turbo boost using Hellfire, so the energy isn't coming from them, but from the host. Remember that Tessa was described as a sorceress. With presumably centuries of tutoring from Namshiel. Still, her combat repertoire was quite limited. Harry soulgazed Marcone and shook his hand. Nothing.
Hello.
I'm new.
One could imagine it working a bit like the raid on Hades' Vault.
Maybe Vadderung can't give Murphy back, but she could be stolen. He does the narrative version of tripping and dropping the keys to Valhalla, says "I sure hope I didn't drop anything important." before scurrying off, studiously avoiding meeting Harry's eyes behind his bad veil.
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Welcome!
I laughed at that idea :D
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I don't agree with the idea of Harry being lazy. Maybe he didn't work on veils as much as he could have, as he was not very good, and worked on his strong points. But he got better. He does not need his blasting rod as much as he once did. He appropriated Luccio's laser after he saw it in action. There's a fire refinement Ascher could have used - with the same power and a smaller cross section, she punches THRU Harry's shield, instead of it being reflected. He worked nights and weekends for... 2 or 3 months, was it? for that forcefield crystal Molly used on Demonreach. Eb seemed impressed. Even Mai did not seem sure she could breach it. Little Chicago was not simple, and took a lot of time and effort. Not a lazy man's tool.
We see how Ascher was massively boosted - she was burning Wardens from within, and the finger torch Harry said was, what, a century off?, while the Gatekeeper said Harry was the most powerful AND TALENTED of his generation - both terms. She was taught by Lasciel. Some Fallen may give their vessels/vassals more power - also recall when Nic offered her coin to Harry, Harry asked why he should believe Nic would let him leave. Nic replied with the coin 'I doubt I could stop you" - as in, with Lasciel providing as much info as she does to Harry he could blow Nic halfway to Wacker Drive if he wanted. Nic may not be hurt, but he'd then be in no position to stop Harry from strolling out the door. The Fallen were angels... and Harry seems to imply in Battle Ground that if they could trick the enemy army into coming too close to Michael's, Michael's security force would blow them away, as if it is no contest. So, angels are hugely powered. So, maybe most hosts only give their vassals 10% of what they can - what if Thorny and Lasciel give 25%? Their coinholders would be much stronger. And Thorny and Lasciel seem to be some of the thinkers of the Denarians, unlike, say, Magog or Ursiel. And you match up the coin to the recipient if you can - you want a good partnership. Magog is force and smash, Ursiel seems similar - plus a genoskwa is probably not high on potential for magic. Harry and Marcone are thinkers. Well, Harry, when he stops to think.
You only soulgaze once, right? The Marcone soulgaze was before we see any coins... and it did not even tell Harry Marcone is probably not his real name... he may have some small aptitude. Harry could have told if he was a practicioner, but maybe not if the talent had withered .. to be revived by a coin. His teleportation.... maybe it is just a different, temporary method of making a Way. A localized time-space warp. Picture a flat map. NYC to Maui is... 6000 miles, say. Fold it, they touch. He folded space. Nice trick - and maybe he is only really good at that one trick. He learned one really well, the others are crude. 10,000 hours to be a master? Well, maybe he spent 1000 on one little trick....
As for Merlin and Demonreach being impossibly magic-dense? Um, maybe impossible for HUMANS, recall in the myths, Merlin is usually only human on his mother's side, his father an incubus or spirit. Our rules may not apply.
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Nice trick - and maybe he is only really good at that one trick. He learned one really well, the others are crude. 10,000 hours to be a master? Well, maybe he spent 1000 on one little trick....
I fear not the man who has performed a thousand kicks one time, but the man who has done one kick a thousand times.
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I think it is super unrealistic that the other fallen does not listen through the shadows also. I mean, if one of them can why are the others not doing it? Why did Marcone not just grow into a super big bear and fight head on?
A bit more serious, I do not understand why it seems so odd that the fallen are different, when all the fallen we have seen so far have been. I think it would be very strange indeed if Thorned Namshiel did not have some other advantage when he cannot listen through any shadow that he wants or turn into a giant bear. It could seem like that advantage is having access to magical power of some sort.
In regards to Hendricks death; I think there is a very very large difference in between being speared by Gungner (Odins spear) and just getting ones neck broken. I definately think it is possible that Marcone could have been killed by that.
On Harry being lazy or not. All these guys you are comparing him to has had teachers, Harry has been self-studying since he was a teenager. My guess is that Eb looked at all his talent and thought that he needed to learn why to use it and not be an even more powerfull wizard than he allready was. Since then Harry have not trusted any that could teach him. Like if I studied martial arts at home all day, but with limited access to training materials, of course I would be having challenges keeping up with a guy who studies under a master, like Ramirez.
Who should Harry have used as a teacher earlier? There could definately be some that I have just missed.
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Who should Harry have used as a teacher earlier? There could definately be some that I have just missed.
He's had some opportunity, such as with LtW, but that was already pretty late in the series.
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Since when has Marcone been a slow learner
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Since when has Marcone been a slow learner
He never has been, and he has always been a man of goals and will use anything or anyone to his advantage and with the exception of the child who was collateral damage, he has no regrets. That
is what actually scared Harry when he soul gazed him so many years ago. The coins seem to match up with the personalities and or weaknesses of their hosts. Marcone would have deliberately chosen
Namshiel because he believes that will give him the most power.. So far it has, and I think he has bought into the "partnership" idea verses being dominated by the Fallen trapped in the coin. This may work out, it worked for the Battle of Chicago, or it may not, time will tell. No, in of himself, Marcone hasn't any talent, but he will allow a Fallen angel with lots of talent and experience to use him for whatever ends.. Thinking long term, you understand?
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Was more a statement than question...but thanks
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Was more a statement than question...but thanks
I was going for a confirmation of what you said. If that makes any sense?