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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: GrandPanjandrum on December 15, 2012, 12:44:02 AM
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Sit back, strap in and put on a little mood music. I suggest Trojans by Atlas Genius, because…well, the words tell the story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2yr12abg8
“Your trojan's in my head”
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Theory: The Parasite is Arianna
1. Failed Death Curse:
In Changes, just before Harry serves up a whole heaping helping of “see ya,” Arianna issues her death curse by mumbling a word (a focus word) that Harry doesn’t recognize. It was intended to exchange her body for Harry’s (just like Corpsetaker). So, when she died, she would possess Harry’s body, and Harry would no longer exist. But, it didn’t work. Instead, Harry remained in his body. He, also, gained another resident; Arianna. The death curse failed due to one of three reasons.
--Arianna was too weak and unfocussed to pull it off
--Harry was too stubborn, and resisted
--Lash is still in there somewhere, and resisted for Harry
It was probably a combination of all three.
She stared up at me with uncomprehending eyes, black blood staining her mouth. "Cattle. You are c-cattle."
"Moo," I said. And I lifted my right hand.
Her eyes widened further. She gasped a word I didn't know.
2. Harry Blacks Out :
Also, in Changes, Harry blacked out for two minutes or so just as the blood curse is initiated. This makes sense, because at that moment he had an Aristocratic Red Court vampire lounging in his body. The curse attacked him because it was aimed at the entire Red Court. Something kicked in to protect him. It might have been something as simple as his entire body shutting down. But, I’m betting that Lash gave him another mental block just like she did in White Night. This, ultimately, protected Harry, Arianna and Lash from the curse, but he was down for two minutes while the curse operated.
3. Introduction to the Parasite:
Our first knowledge of the parasite is at the end of Ghost Story. Demonreach states that the parasite maintained the blood flow. Well, if you require a hematologist, a Red Court vampire should be your first choice. They know blood better than anyone. It doesn't make sense that Mab and Demonreach should have to negotiate with Lash. She has shown that she will labor to save Harry's life out of free will, and that was a big deal to her. I don't think she would hold Harry's life hostage. Arianna certainly would.
4. Headaches:
Harry has been suffering from headaches. In Cold Days, Harry develops a massive headache as he is learning about the prison well on the island. Demonreach “WARNS” it away, but not before we learn what the headache felt like. Harry describes it as two separate ice picks digging into his skull. He points out that this is what it always feels like. I would better describe it as two Red Court vampire fangs digging into his skull.
5. It Bursts Forth From Your Skull
This is a small issue, but it is reflective of a Red Court vampire. They wear a human skin, and when agitated, they shed it like…well a skin. Somehow, Arianna will eventually become whole within Harry. We know they can contract their huge size to a smaller area as has been shown various times in the series.
There you have it, guys and gals. The Parasite is Arianna. It is a result of a botched Death Curse (as she was a sorceress). I believe Lash is still in there, and may have preserved Harry's life twice in Changes. Two's company...three's a crowd.
“Your trojan's in my head”
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Didn't the headaches predate Changes though?
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Didn't the headaches predate Changes though?
There's headaches...and there's headaches. One of those times was Mab messing with his head and stealing his blasting rod. But this is a defined "two ice picks." It's the first time he described it that way.
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i thought death curses were a human thing?
and this hasn't really been brought up that i've seen but, DR says burst from skull yes? well i think harry just assumed it would physically burst from his skull, due to preconceived notions about the word 'burst' in corrallation to his experiences eg, facehugger from aliens. the thing is DR isn't an elequent speaker. indeed he barely spoke more then a few sentences before CD. i think this is a miscommunication. it WILL metaphysically burst from his skull, not physically. as a spiritual being. if my other theories are correct 'lash' will then be housed in bobs new vessel, becoming harry's new info source.
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Just an the 'ice pick' headache issue-there are two. Not just the one in CD but theres another in SmF specifically described exactly the same as the one you are taking as evidence as a RCV. The SmF headache was caused by Mab's geas. But I hadnt really thought about Arianna's death curse and that is probably something definitely worth considering.
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i thought death curses were a human thing?
How human is human, again? :) We know the Denarians can throw one, and they're definitely not attached to or using the most human of abilities. Even wizards are considered to be slightly different from vanilla mortals, thanks to that nifty little gene that lets them use greater magical talents.
I don't think it's entirely species related, as it pretty much just requires a character to be able to tap into their life force and burn it out.
and this hasn't really been brought up that i've seen but, DR says burst from skull yes? well i think harry just assumed it would physically burst from his skull, due to preconceived notions about the word 'burst' in corrallation to his experiences eg, facehugger from aliens. the thing is DR isn't an elequent speaker. indeed he barely spoke more then a few sentences before CD. i think this is a miscommunication. it WILL metaphysically burst from his skull, not physically. as a spiritual being. if my other theories are correct 'lash' will then be housed in bobs new vessel, becoming harry's new info source.
I'm more worried about the price that's going to get asked of Harry in order to remove the parasite.
Whether DemonReach meant a physical bursting, a metaphysical bursting, or a mental burst (might leave Harry in a coma again) isn't known at this point, any more than we know how long it meant by "Soon" in response to when it would grow so large it couldn't remain contained in Harry any more. I think a lot of people are hoping DR wasn't being literal, just on account of them not wanting anything bad to happen to Harry (heh, heh, heh... they're reading entirely the wrong series).
A metaphysical bursting, though, would have some equally bad ramifications if it happened. Harry might lose his access to soulfire, if it damages him at the metaphysical level DR seems to think it will. Or the parasite might drain him to the point where he no longer has a soul, taking all of it with itself when it finally emerges.
Back to the theory, though: There's been a lot of speculation that any Ramps who were in the NN at the time the bloodline curse was triggered were not affected by it. (Mostly because, in a creepy way, I think a lot of the forum members here liked the Eebs.) If Arianna's "spirit" got sucked into Dresden right before her physical self died, I'm thinking some of what remained of her would be manifesting either through Harry's thoughts or actions. He *does* think about going for Maeve's throat in Cold Days. But before that, and especially during Ghost Story, Harry doesn't seem to be thinking along the lines of a Red Court vamp.
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If Arianna's "spirit" got sucked into Dresden right before her physical self died, I'm thinking some of what remained of her would be manifesting either through Harry's thoughts or actions. He *does* think about going for Maeve's throat in Cold Days. But before that, and especially during Ghost Story, Harry doesn't seem to be thinking along the lines of a Red Court vamp.
That's an avenue I didn't travel down. But, if you think about it, there are a number of occasions in Cold Days where Harry's thoughts (and even some actions) are out of character. It's easy to associate some of them with the Winter Knight Mantle...but one in particular was somewhat out of character in that regard. Someone points out to Harry that he is displaying an ownership of Molly. That behavior is more reflective of the Ramps (food and satiation). Hell, they ran the sex trade in Chicago before Marcone. It would be nice if these sporadic unqualified thoughts of his are because of a Ramp and not the Mantle. I guess that's wishful thinking though.
As far as Harry's thoughts in Ghost Story...he wasn't in his body at the time (not until the very end). His spirit and soul were on walk-about while the parasite was in his physical body...so I don't think it would apply.
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My issue here is that this theory completely discounts the actual headaches in the past. In Turn Coat, his headaches have gotten so bad that Butters is trying to get him into an MRI machine. In Cold Days, he says they've been growing "steadily worse" "over the past few years". Harry certainly doesn't see this as a case of two different types of headaches, but as a continuation of the ones plaguing him.
i thought death curses were a human thing?
Ebenezar says Mavra can do one, since she has a wizard level talent.
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orbweaver, liverspots was fully human when he cast his death curse, albeit a weak pansy ass one... he was practitioner enough without the coin, so i don't think that counts as non human. a half blood like martin or even thomas might have one too if they knew magic. bianca was full vamp. pretty sure even denarian with a coin is still technically human anyway.
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orbweaver, liverspots was fully human when he cast his death curse, albeit a weak pansy ass one... he was practitioner enough without the coin, so i don't think that counts as non human. a half blood like martin or even thomas might have one too if they knew magic. bianca was full vamp. pretty sure even denarian with a coin is still technically human anyway.
If you think about it...it really doesn't have to be a death curse. When Corpsetaker changes place with Luccio...it's just really good timing. I guess it depends on how powerful Arianna was...and how learned. Based on her age...she had a long time to learn.
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orbweaver, liverspots was fully human when he cast his death curse, albeit a weak pansy ass one... he was practitioner enough without the coin, so i don't think that counts as non human. a half blood like martin or even thomas might have one too if they knew magic. bianca was full vamp. pretty sure even denarian with a coin is still technically human anyway.
I knew there was another case I was forgetting! Thanks, Tarion. Ebenezar did say Mavra was capable of one, I think during the course of Blood Rites or Dead Beat. Then again, Mavra has shown herself to be far from your typical newbie Black Court vampire.
Yes, Cassius was human when he threw the death curse- but the thing is, the Nickelheads are still human as well (though they have an extremely inhuman element riding shotgun). Again, how human is human?
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Great theory.
I don't agree with it but it is still a great theory. Well presented.
BTW, one of the comments here got me to thinking of the 'bursting forth' as metaphor for childbirth.
I have been having trouble figuring out why Lash would want to hurt Harry but if it is some sort of metaphysical process that she can not control and she is going to be split off from Harry (cutting the umbilical cord, so to speak) then I can see how the imagery and symbolism could fit.
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My issue here is that this theory completely discounts the actual headaches in the past. In Turn Coat, his headaches have gotten so bad that Butters is trying to get him into an MRI machine. In Cold Days, he says they've been growing "steadily worse" "over the past few years". Harry certainly doesn't see this as a case of two different types of headaches, but as a continuation of the ones plaguing him.
Ebenezar says Mavra can do one, since she has a wizard level talent.
can you throw me a quote? don't own blood rites... :'(
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I think the parasite is Lash, or what is left of a reconstituted Lash at any rate. The Red Court that didn't die is likely the Ebes and all the RC shielded in the Erlking's domain. Just a guess, but I think they would have been protected from the curse there as they were not on Earth when the curse activated but in the Nevernever. I predict we'll see the Ebes again-- they are too good of villains for Jim not to use them again.
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I think that there are surviving Red Court Vampires: Esteban and Esmerelda. They were protected in the Erlking's realm from the curse, and eventually they will work their way free.
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I think that there are surviving Red Court Vampires: Esteban and Esmerelda. They were protected in the Erlking's realm from the curse, and eventually they will work their way free.
Great minds think alike!! LOL. But also Fools seldom differ I guess.
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what of maggie? she was neither full vamp or half but she'd have like 1/4 from her mom, shouldn't this maybe give her special powers without the demon? dhampir anyone?
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Great minds think alike!! LOL. But also Fools seldom differ I guess.
Yeah, I also have to agree with your "too cool to be gone" reasoning, too. :)
what of maggie? she was neither full vamp or half but she'd have like 1/4 from her mom, shouldn't this maybe give her special powers without the demon? dhampir anyone?
Nah, she was right there when the curse went down. It would have killed that aspect of her if it existed at all, like all the young half-reds.
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what of maggie? she was neither full vamp or half but she'd have like 1/4 from her mom, shouldn't this maybe give her special powers without the demon? dhampir anyone?
Don't think Red Court reproduction works that way. And even if it does, it got burned out when the bloodline curse went off.
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i doubt that, and if you look at the details correctly the bloodline curse goes backwards through the family (and sideways) never says forward. that's why they wanted maggie in the first place. she was the youngest, younger than susan... if any vampires had been turned after susan they would have survived too :P
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I think that there are surviving Red Court Vampires: Esteban and Esmerelda. They were protected in the Erlking's realm from the curse, and eventually they will work their way free.
My thoughts exactly. That bloodline curse has awfully specific guidelines and being on the same plane of existence as the recipients is surely one of them.
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@wizard nelson - Nope, TheCuriousFan is right. The vampire portion of any half turned RCVs wouldve been lost during the ritual. See Changes at page 422. On the next page it says more than 200 people were 'freed' from the vampire curse. At least about 10 years pass between when Susan is bitten and Chichen Itza. Some of those 200 cured people had to have been turned after Susan.
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no, your not comprehending correctly, she 'turned' when she killed martin. otherwise it woulda been pointless for things to go down that way. plus i don't think maggie has a demon part, she's more like a scion. when she turned she was reborn as the youngest
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no, your not comprehending correctly, she 'turned' when she killed martin. otherwise it woulda been pointless for things to go down that way. plus i don't think maggie has a demon part, she's more like a scion. when she turned she was reborn as the youngest
Susan was the youngest vampire; Maggie was a completely different creature: a part vampire. And it is a fact that JB writes that all the half vampires turned back to human. Harry says he cured it; therefore Maggie must also be cured.
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thats my point she wasn't part vamp, she didn't have a demon, thats wat it killed in the halflings an younger than susan is important too:
"they wanted maggie because she was the youngest" "because her death woulda taken us all with her." "now you're the youngest," "the youngest vampire in the entire and literally damned court. you can kill them all." she didn't have a demon to destroy, she's uniquely maggie. halfling pregnancies dont happen everyday. she'd be different than them, a distillation of it, nothing there to kill.
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thats my point she wasn't part vamp, she didn't have a demon, thats wat it killed in the halflings an younger than susan is important too:
"they wanted maggie because she was the youngest" "because her death woulda taken us all with her." "now you're the youngest," "the youngest vampire in the entire and literally damned court. you can kill them all." she didn't have a demon to destroy, she's uniquely maggie. halfling pregnancies dont happen everyday. she'd be different than them, a distillation of it, nothing there to kill.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you are getting several things tangled up.
1) RC doesn't have demons; that's the WC
2) Susan was a half-vampire for 10 years, by your argument the curse wouldn't have worked because Susan wasn't the youngest Red Court Vampire
3) Vampire is not the same as half-vampire.
4) Maggies at the most was a quarter vampire, not a full vampire. She wasn't the youngest vampire. She was the youngest Dresden/ McCoy
5) The Curse set off a chain reaction which killed the Vampire King.
6) It was the Vampire's king's death which cured the vampire taint in the half-vampires, not Susan's death
7) All half-vampires in this reality were cured; Maggie was in this reality therefore she was cured too.
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I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you are getting several things tangled up.
1) RC doesn't have demons; that's the WC
2) Susan was a half-vampire for 10 years, by your argument the curse wouldn't have worked because Susan wasn't the youngest Red Court Vampire
3) Vampire is not the same as half-vampire.
4) Maggies at the most was a quarter vampire, not a full vampire. She wasn't the youngest vampire. She was the youngest Dresden/ McCoy
5) The Curse set off a chain reaction which killed the Vampire King.
6) It was the Vampire's king's death which cured the vampire taint in the half-vampires, not Susan's death
7) All half-vampires in this reality were cured; Maggie was in this reality therefore she was cured too.
I'm not disputing the rest of your post but do you have proof for the bolded section? Also, I'm not getting 7. It's never stated definately that all the half-vamps were cured.
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1 lea lulled their demon halves to sleep. DEMON
2your reading it wrong, her moment of 'birth' was when she killed martin... already said this..
3yep, half vamps just have the hunger demon within :P
4yea? ??? so? i know.. i don't get your point here..
5yea it reached back that far
6 the RCV were going to kill him cause he was loosing it, doubt they'd do that if it meant they died or lost power.
7this hinges on your 6, see my 6...
i think your getting your mythos mixed up, this aint dracula, you kill the original vamp and it doesn't do squat... sorry my logic confuses you :P
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I'm not disputing the rest of your post but do you have proof for the bolded section? Also, I'm not getting 7. It's never stated definately that all the half-vamps were cured.
It's stated quite clearly that the Red King was the originator of his entire species. The curse was set up as a line curse: youngest of a line to oldest. Susan was the youngest vampire and therefore the line curse went all the way up to the oldest Red King wiping out his entire line. There would be no RC without the King and no taint. Otherwise please re-read the final chapters of Changes again. It's all quite clearly stated by Harry in the aftermath of Susan's death.
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It's stated quite clearly that the Red King was the originator of his entire species. The curse was set up as a line curse: youngest of a line to oldest. Susan was the youngest vampire and therefore the line curse went all the way up to the oldest Red King wiping out his entire line. There would be no RC without the King and no taint. Otherwise please re-read the final chapters of Changes again. It's all quite clearly stated by Harry in the aftermath of Susan's death.
it never says this is because he died, i got the book in my lap.. again arianna was to have him killed anyways..
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It's stated quite clearly that the Red King was the originator of his entire species. The curse was set up as a line curse: youngest of a line to oldest. Susan was the youngest vampire and therefore the line curse went all the way up to the oldest Red King wiping out his entire line. There would be no RC without the King and no taint. Otherwise please re-read the final chapters of Changes again. It's all quite clearly stated by Harry in the aftermath of Susan's death.
Actually, never mind. I need to reread Changes again, I'm getting confused on the details of the bloodline curse...
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Um. What is it you think im not comprehending? Susan was a half vamp. She gave birth to Maggie. Therefore, at best, Maggie received only a portion of vampire-ness, if such a thing is hereditary in RCV, which we have no textual evidence to support, that Im aware of. Please point me to it if I missed something. Susan became a full vamp then was killed. Her death not only killed full vamps, but killed the vamp portion of half vamps younger than her, as noted in Changes at the pages I quoted. Therefore, even if Maggie inherited some portion of vampirness from her mother, she, like all partial vamps youunger than Susan, would have this burned out of her upon Susan's death. Therefore, TheCuriousFan was right. Where does my logic fall apart?
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it never says this is because he died, i got the book in my lap.. again arianna was to have him killed anyways..
I think you have built a theory around Maggie and you are having a tough time letting it go. I can only go by what's written in the book and I have told you that already. Re-read it again and see if you feel the same way after. :)
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2your reading it wrong, her moment of 'birth' was when she killed martin... already said this..
Ok, in that case Maggie's purported infection is older than Susan's and therefor susceptible to the curse.
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Ok, in that case Maggie's purported infection is older than Susan's and therefor susceptible to the curse.
your ignoring my supposition. maggie doesn't have a demon inside, nothing to kill... its a bit of energy. halflings have the hunger demon as per lea lulling it to sleep... can no one follow my logic? i'll try to explain, but yes it is based off some theoretical stuff, nothing you've said has directly circumvented it though.... i've rebuffed a few things as false actually.
give me few numbered problems with my theory, its easier if i know were your confused
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You say Lea lulled Susan and Martin's demon half to sleep. So you agree Susan had demon in her when she gave birth to Maggie. But you argued that Maggie had no demon, no vampireness in her to get burned out when Susan died and her death killed all remnants of the red court vampires. So no, im not following your logic. You propose Susan being half vampire is somehow important for Maggie, yet you claim that everything vampire-y being killed of somehow wont be affected in Maggie. ?
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I'm not confused, I just completely disagree with your premise.
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Can I get a quote on Mab lulling their demon halves to sleep (I don't have my books with me)? I do remember something like that but I'd like to see the exact wording.
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You say Lea lulled Susan and Martin's demon half to sleep. So you agree Susan had demon in her when she gave birth to Maggie. But you argued that Maggie had no demon, no vampireness in her to get burned out when Susan died and her death killed all remnants of the red court vampires. So no, im not following your logic. You propose Susan being half vampire is somehow important for Maggie, yet you claim that everything vampire-y being killed of somehow wont be affected in Maggie. ?
the curse killed the actual demons inside the halflings, my supposition is that maggie had no demon to kill ergo wouldn't be directly effected BUT she could still have something different about her eg slightly faster, stronger, ect.
catnip13:I'm not confused, I just completely disagree with your premise
thanks :P
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Can I get a quote on Mab lulling their demon halves to sleep (I don't have my books with me)? I do remember something like that but I'd like to see the exact wording.
Lea did that ...
“What did you do to them?”
“I lulled their predator spirit to sleep,” she said calmly. “Poor lambs. They didn’t realize how much strength they drew from it. Mayhap this will prove a useful lesson.”
I frowned at that. “You mean… the vampire part of them?”
“Of course.”
Changes, chapter 15.
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Can I get a quote on Mab lulling their demon halves to sleep (I don't have my books with me)? I do remember something like that but I'd like to see the exact wording.
I looked up at my godmother. Mister was sprawled in her lap on his back, luxuriating as she traced her long nails over his chest and tummy. His purr throbbed continuously through the room. "What did you do to them?"
"I lulled their predator spirit to sleep," she said calmly. "Poor lambs. They didn't realize how much strength they drew from it. Mayhap this will prove a useful lesson."
I frowned at that. "You mean . . . the vampire part of them?"
"Of course."
I sat there for a moment, stunned.
If the vampire infection within half vampires like Susan and Martin could be enchanted to sleep, then it was presumably possible to do other things to it as well. Suppress it, maybe permanently.
It might even be possible to destroy it.
EDIT: Damn ninjas.
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The lulling to sleep part happens earlier in Changes when he finds Lea in his apartment. In the hardback edition its on page 107. Its chapter 15. What she actually says is that she lulls their predator spirit to sleep.
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sooo...? yea number up some logical holes in my theory... its sound, if only a theory :P
Are we going to see more of Maggie and is she a witch?
We WILL see more of Maggie and (sing-song voice) I’m not gonna tell yooooou. But yeah, she’s definitely going to be a part of what’s going on.
that singsong thing makes me think maggie ain't run of the mill 'witch'. its were this all originated btw
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I find it slightly disturbing that 3 of us nearly immediately posted the exact page and quotation of a random thing from the books at 12:30 on Friday night.
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I am with Nelson on this one (mostly).
The curse killed the vampire curse/spirit/demon/whatever that was in all of the vampires (including the half vampires).
It started with the young vampires and worked its way up to the Red King. It wasn't a matter of the Red King being killed and thus all of his coven dying instantly - the curse was like a chain reaction that ran through the entire species from youngest to oldest.
I have no idea if the child of a half-vampire would have any connection to the predator spirit or not. White Court vampires (like Inari) have a connection to the hunger spirit even before they kill someone and cement the bond. It was never made clear what happened when Inari had sex with someone she loved before her first kill and thus avoided becoming a full WCV.
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I find it slightly disturbing that 3 of us nearly immediately posted the exact page and quotation of a random thing from the books at 12:30 on Friday night.
In my defence, for me it's 5:30 in the afternoon.:))
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I think if Maggie had anything it died off like the Jaguar men who were half vamps. They had lived a long long time though so when the spirit holding them up died they aged alot in a short time and died. Maggie is young and wasn't being kept alive by the predator spirit or whatever so she wasn't impacted by its removal. It's probably why she was asleep though.
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thanks madness, their reasons for saying i was wrong were wrong. so i had to debate them on the issues..
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I think if Maggie had anything it died off like the Jaguar men who were half vamps. They had lived a long long time though so when the spirit holding them up died they aged alot in a short time and died. Maggie is young and wasn't being kept alive by the predator spirit or whatever so she wasn't impacted by its removal. It's probably why she was asleep though.
ARRG! thats what i'm trying to SAY she didn't have the demon just some abnormalities... ARGG! *migraine starts up*
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Wow. Im near the West coast in the US, so just assumed everyone else would be to the east of me and therefore even earlier in the a.m. I didnt even think of people on the board from places waaaaay past the east coast. How very American-centric of me. :/
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The lulling to sleep part happens earlier in Changes when he finds Lea in his apartment. In the hardback edition its on page 107. Its chapter 15. What she actually says is that she lulls their predator spirit to sleep.
EDIT: Damn ninjas.
Lea did that ... Changes, chapter 15.
AHA! So it isn't explicitly stated to be a demon. It is their "predator spirit" (could be poetic)/Vamp part of them.
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I think if Maggie had anything it died off like the Jaguar men who were half vamps. They had lived a long long time though so when the spirit holding them up died they aged alot in a short time and died. Maggie is young and wasn't being kept alive by the predator spirit or whatever so she wasn't impacted by its removal. It's probably why she was asleep though.
the curse killed the actual 'living' hunger demon. i'm trying, rather unsuccessfully, to get my theory across that since she possessed no actual entity there was nothing to kill, she could still be special though...
edit: i'd have to look for hours but i'm certain it calls it a demon somewhere in the series when harry and susan or martin talk about it
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Edit: on second thought, Im erasing my post here. I made my point clearly and theres no need to repeat it.
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Edit: on second thought, Im erasing my post here. I made my point clearly and theres no need to repeat it.
huh? never saw but oh well... still don't understand why some are confused... disagree yes... not get... no
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Greetings
While it is just possible the Eebs survived I wouldn't bet money on it. Ignoring the effects of the death curse before Harry and Susan left the Erlking's hall (Changes p315-6):
"Screams went up from the entire helpless Red Court crew as several hundred violence-amped goblins fell on them in a wave. I watched for a moment in sickened fascination, but turned away. ... Beneath the screams of the Red Court - Esmerelda's were especially piercing - a ragged chuckle ran through the hall."
On the other hand before the fight the Erlking did imply that the defeated participants would amuse his people while they lasted. (p302).
Regards
Edward
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My issue here is that this theory completely discounts the actual headaches in the past. In Turn Coat, his headaches have gotten so bad that Butters is trying to get him into an MRI machine. In Cold Days, he says they've been growing "steadily worse" "over the past few years". Harry certainly doesn't see this as a case of two different types of headaches, but as a continuation of the ones plaguing him.
Ebenezar says Mavra can do one, since she has a wizard level talent.
In Turn Coat he only had one entity in there, but ever since White Knight that entity displayed free will. As Uriel stated..."You are a soul, you have a body." So, I'd say that the headaches since White Knight were Lash growing a soul in Harry's body. The escalation in Cold Days (where Harry points out that he's gone all but unconcious) is a combination of Lash's new soul, and Arianna's very real residence. You can take the "two separate ice picks" as two separate entities, or vampire fangs.
I can't imagine Jim Butcher missing an opportunity to have what equivocates to an Angel and a Demon inside Harry's head...especially with all the important decisions that have fallen to him. It is the stereotypical angel on one shoulder, demon on the other duking it out. Too fun.
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From what I understand, if this "Predator Spirit" in half-Reds were the same as being a full Red, then Susan or Martian could have been sacrificed anytime.
The Sacrifice only worked because Susan fed her RC Vampire and let it take over. 'Susan' died as soon as she fed, and a brand new RC Vampire was born. At that moment of birth, she became the youngest Rampire and could affect all others.
There is no evidence that the RC's Predator Spirit infection that turns a human into a Rampire can be passed down any other way except from a RC Noble (the process of doing so isn't entirely clear).
It is unlikely that Maggie would have inherited any of that RC Infection, if she had her first foster family would have all been dead soon after they took her in. A child would not have been able to control that. Also, when the Rampires were all killed off, it also wiped out the 'Infection' that made Half-Reds. Even if Maggie had any of that 'Infection', it would have been wiped away once Susan died.
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Great theory.
I don't agree with it but it is still a great theory. Well presented.
BTW, one of the comments here got me to thinking of the 'bursting forth' as metaphor for childbirth.
I have been having trouble figuring out why Lash would want to hurt Harry but if it is some sort of metaphysical process that she can not control and she is going to be split off from Harry (cutting the umbilical cord, so to speak) then I can see how the imagery and symbolism could fit.
I think Lash is growing a soul ever since she practiced Free Will in White Knight. But, I think she, also, has company in there.
Your comment got me thinking about the dreams that went out into the world to pregnant women when the curse was released. That's kind of interesting from a "conception" point of view relative to Arianna.
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Hell.
What if the original source of the Red Court (whatever the Red King had) jumped into Harry when the Red King died?
Didn't Harry lose the two minutes pretty much right as the spell was going out?
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Hell.
What if the original source of the Red Court (whatever the Red King had) jumped into Harry when the Red King died?
Didn't Harry lose the two minutes pretty much right as the spell was going out?
Read #2 of the first post on this thread...concerning the black out.
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Read #2 of the first post on this thread...concerning the black out.
Yeah.
I am sort of spinning it and speculating that something from the Red Court got into his head at the moment of the curse (rather than it being Arianna).
I wonder if whatever enchantment or curse created the Red Court Vampires had some sort of built-in device for surviving the death of its hosts (similar to the cases of Harley MacFinn and the Archive)?
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Greetings
While something happened in the 2 minutes after the death curse on the Red Court took effect that Harry is blocking, I can't see any evidence for Arianna doing any sort of transfer.
The survival of the RC spirit at all is speculation on which we have no information; its transfer to Harry is even more speculative and, more to the point, we have no evidence for, merely an unknown two minutes.
Regards
Edward
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Greetings
I can't see any evidence for Arianna doing any sort of transfer.
Edward
She stared up at me with uncomprehending eyes, black blood staining her mouth. "Cattle. You are c-cattle."
"Moo," I said. And I lifted my right hand.
Her eyes widened further. She gasped a word I didn't know.
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orbweaver, liverspots was fully human when he cast his death curse, albeit a weak pansy ass one... he was practitioner enough without the coin, so i don't think that counts as non human. a half blood like martin or even thomas might have one too if they knew magic. bianca was full vamp. pretty sure even denarian with a coin is still technically human anyway.
One teensy nit-pick here. I believe Thomas does have some magic of his own. I don't know if it's related to his being a WC Vampire but if I recall correctly,..... was it Back Up?...where he does use his pentacle necklace to track Harry...anyone want to back me up or dispute this?
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One teensy nit-pick here. I believe Thomas does have some magic of his own. I don't know if it's related to his being a WC Vampire but if I recall correctly,..... was it Back Up?...where he does use his pentacle necklace to track Harry...anyone want to back me up or dispute this?
He uses a tracking spell in Backup based off the pentacle.
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One teensy nit-pick here. I believe Thomas does have some magic of his own. I don't know if it's related to his being a WC Vampire but if I recall correctly,..... was it Back Up?...where he does use his pentacle necklace to track Harry...anyone want to back me up or dispute this?
Thomas holds a small amount of magic. In White Knight he is able to find an exit from the Never Never and open it (strip club I think). But, it doesn't really matter since Ebenezer points out that Mavra could have thrown a Death Curse at Harry...and she's definitely not human...or alive.
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ARRG! thats what i'm trying to SAY she didn't have the demon just some abnormalities... ARGG! *migraine starts up*
Uh oh! Wizard Nelson has acquired a parasite! :-)
I see what you are talking about but I've not seen any textual references that convince me it's credible. I'll remain open to the possibility and will be looking for bits in the next several books when/if Maggie actually shows up again.
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Greetings
Arianna's one word is more likely to be soething like 'don't' in Maya as Harry raises his right hand to finish her off (which is what he does).
If we had any evidence for Arianna knowing anything about transfer spells, for the RC spirit transferring too etc I'd go for it as an interesting theory. But at present there's nothing I'm aware of to give it weight.
Regards
Edward
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I think Lash is growing a soul ever since she practiced Free Will in White Knight. But, I think she, also, has company in there.
Your comment got me thinking about the dreams that went out into the world to pregnant women when the curse was released. That's kind of interesting from a "conception" point of view relative to Arianna.
Well actually:
Well, no, but he [Bob] said that Lash got, obtained free will.
Yeah, Bob doesn’t have to tell the truth to Dresden! (Laughter) I mean, come on! Bob offered it as a possible explanation, but you know, Bob’s essentially…he’s a theoretician. That’s what he does… ‘Explain this’ , ‘Okay, maybe it was this, I don’t know.’ But yeah, he tries to stay out of the whole, anything like, anything that verges on morality, Bob tries to avoid speaking with any authority on because he doesn’t have any compass himself. It all depends on who actually happens to be in possession of the skull at the time.
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Greetings
Arianna's one word is more likely to be soething like 'don't' in Maya as Harry raises his right hand to finish her off (which is what he does).
If we had any evidence for Arianna knowing anything about transfer spells, for the RC spirit transferring too etc I'd go for it as an interesting theory. But at present there's nothing I'm aware of to give it weight.
Regards
Edward
Yeah...maybe. But, in Changes just before her big flattening ending as Harry is walking up to her, she is repeatedly saying "No...no...no...no..." She switches to the unrecognized single word as she realizes Harry's intent and just before the "hammer." That suggests a focus word for a prepared spell in my opinion (just in case). And since we have a potential member of the "Black Circle" (Corpestaker) using that spell as her pièce de résistance in a tight spot as well as Arianna's granddaughter working hand in hand with Mavra (who could also be associated with Corpsetaker and is, most definitely trained in necromancy), and we, also, have a Red Court vampire centuries old who happens to be a sorceress, the potential is there to have learned the spell from any number of sources.
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the main problem i see with this that harry was having increasingly bad migrains for months before the beging of turn coat nice idea though
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Bear in mind that when Harry was about to execute Arianna at the end of the duel, he made note that she was skewered in numerous places by the shards of ice that he directed towards her including the one in her stomach. Unless Arianna could ignore the spike that opened her blood reservoir, (which makes Ramps weaker than kittens), I find it unlikely that she could have managed to attempt any spell against Harry with a single word just before he craters her.
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Bear in mind that when Harry was about to execute Arianna at the end of the duel, he made note that she was skewered in numerous places by the shards of ice that he directed towards her including the one in her stomach. Unless Arianna could ignore the spike that opened her blood reservoir, (which makes Ramps weaker than kittens), I find it unlikely that she could have managed to attempt any spell against Harry with a single word just before he craters her.
Good point...but think about this...it didn't work. If it was the Corpsetaker's spell, Arianna would own Harry's body, and Harry would be non-existent.
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Good point...but think about this...it didn't work. If it was the Corpsetaker's spell, Arianna would own Harry's body, and Harry would be non-existent.
Exactly, it wouldn't have worked for her with the pain she was in and the loss of her blood reservoir, and Corpsetaker herself had difficulty assaulting Harry's mind when she was still alive (she would have eventually taken him but he was making her work for it) so I doubt that Arianna would have been able to do better, especially when she was not a frequent user of that technique. (Body Swapping, Ramps were known to be able to exert some mental influence, but never swapping since that ultimately would have been in their eyes a losing proposition.)
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I'm rereading Dead Beat right now, and another parasite possibility just occurred to me: Bob.
When he's doing his megalomaniac villain act, he forces something into Harry's mouth and then cackles that it's too late. And now he's asking for a back up vessel. I've previously been of the parasite=Lash camp, but now I wonder, especially because Bob has been known to strike bargains with people. And it did sort of burst out of his skull ... his enchanted one.
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if anyone doesn't get the concept of a death cur.. ummm killing curse? it killed reds it killed the red demon in halfings. but and i know its a theoretical BUT, maggie according to what i've been TRYing to explain doesn't have any such thing to target, it has nothing to actually kill, its a killing curse... not a purifying curse, its just not made to cleans every little thing from her. it kills stuff. and considering what she is it would be different enough from the reds blood. it cool your entitled to your opinion. but just say 'no i dont believe it' :-\ i'm really worried about keeping my idea logical without explaining holes i already covered.
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Nelson, I'm going to have to agree with Tami here on this, the ritual curse that wiped out the Red Court was keyed on the youngest member of a bloodline, which would carry it into the preceding generations to complete it's effect which is why they were targeting Maggie Jr to kill Harry and Ebenezar. But with Ramps it's not so much of a genealogical bloodline as it is a metaphysical one based on how they turn victims into the half breeds like Susan and Martin...the curse worked to wipe out the Reds because at that moment Susan was the youngest in the Red Kings bloodline, and through him it would annihilate the rest. Maggie Jr if anything has a better chance at being a wizard due to her parentage than to have any aspects of the Ramps predator spirit inside her.
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??? i know. thats why i said no hunger demon for maggie. technicality, the demon would be older than susan, maggie is not. no demon = maggie younger. no demon to kill.
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Sorry for the confusion, your post was edited while I was typing mine up and didn't see the changes you made until after.
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Sorry for the confusion, your post was edited while I was typing mine up and didn't see the changes you made until after.
is cool. 8)
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I skimmed over much of this thread - but there's an unquoted source that talks about the Red Court Infected.
The Dresden Files RPG is working on an expansion. Jim has signed off on all the subjects and major topics. One of the major topics (an entire chapter) concerns the "Red Lands" - places where the Red Court once ruled.
You can find an introduction to the chapter at the link below.
http://www.evilhat.com/home/redlands/ (http://www.evilhat.com/home/redlands/)
Richard