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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Automagic on January 03, 2009, 12:17:24 AM
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Hullo!
First time poster, longtime reader (of the books). I haven't found this anywhere, but I was wondering what Jim's stance on fanfic was. Specifically, fanfic in general and fanfic about his own properties.
I'm not a fanfic writer myself, but know some authors (coughRicecough) have a take-no-prisoners view of it while others (she of the vs. Vander Ark) believe the more the merrier.
I didn't know which forum this would go in, so if it's wrong I apologize.
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Jim himself appears to be the kind of guy who doesn't mind fanfic... However, his contract puts the kibosh on fanfic based on his stuff (yeah, I personally think he needs a new contract and new lawyers).
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Jim himself appears to be the kind of guy who doesn't mind fanfic... However, his contract puts the kibosh on fanfic based on his stuff (yeah, I personally think he needs a new contract and new lawyers).
So essentially...Jim's stance is "Don't ask, don't tell"?
If he doesn't know about it, he doesn't have to tell anybody?
Likewise, no matter how much he likes it, he can't give it his seal of approval?
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So essentially...Jim's stance is "Don't ask, don't tell"?
If he doesn't know about it, he doesn't have to tell anybody?
Likewise, no matter how much he likes it, he can't give it his seal of approval?
Basically, yeah. I really don't want to say more, in case said lawyers get suspicious... :: Glares in their general direction, wonders if they sold their inner children on eBay::
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Basically, yeah. I really don't want to say more, in case said lawyers get suspicious... :: Glares in their general direction, wonders if they sold their inner children on eBay::
Not their inner children as much as the souls of their firstborns...their heart and soul, they sold to Lea
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Hey Hey ease up on the Lawyer bashing :D I come from a family of them you know (and am endeavoring to be one myself).
In the future, please use the qualifier of Corporate Lawyer. Those guys really DO sell their souls (think Wolfram and Hart from Angel)
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Hullo!
First time poster, longtime reader (of the books). I haven't found this anywhere, but I was wondering what Jim's stance on fanfic was. Specifically, fanfic in general and fanfic about his own properties.
I'm not a fanfic writer myself, but know some authors (coughRicecough) have a take-no-prisoners view of it while others (she of the vs. Vander Ark) believe the more the merrier.
I didn't know which forum this would go in, so if it's wrong I apologize.
The ultimate answer is, Jim can't know about it. There are sites for it ( being one of them), but other than that. Jim don't as, we don't tell
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Hey Hey ease up on the Lawyer bashing :D I come from a family of them you know (and am endeavoring to be one myself).
In the future, please use the qualifier of Corporate Lawyer. Those guys really DO sell their souls (think Wolfram and Hart from Angel)
"Yeah, we only sell our souls in sustainable lots!"
*ducks*
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:D
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Hey Hey ease up on the Lawyer bashing :D I come from a family of them you know (and am endeavoring to be one myself).
In the future, please use the qualifier of Corporate Lawyer. Those guys really DO sell their souls (think Wolfram and Hart from Angel)
Heh, I just like to rattle their cages about it. In a way, it's not such a bad idea that there's a "don't ask, dont' tell" policy on fics, since it cuts down on the number of badfics that the fandom could get cluttered with Things like "Harry's long lost twin sister who's never mentioned in the books and OMG SHEEZ JSUT AZ POWAHFULL @ MAGICK!!!11", or fics with Justin DuMorne/Morningway molesting Harry as a kid, or Michael being warped into a rabid fanatic who eats babies, or Thomas getting deboched into a weepy emo cutter because aren't all vampires that way? Trust me, I used to hang out on the Godawful Fanfiction Forum and I've seen some pretty sick stuff that the fankiddies cook up...
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Heh, I just like to rattle their cages about it. In a way, it's not such a bad idea that there's a "don't ask, dont' tell" policy on fics, since it cuts down on the number of badfics that the fandom could get cluttered with Things like "Harry's long lost twin sister who's never mentioned in the books and OMG SHEEZ JSUT AZ POWAHFULL @ MAGICK!!!11", or fics with Justin DuMorne/Morningway molesting Harry as a kid, or Michael being warped into a rabid fanatic who eats babies, or Thomas getting deboched into a weepy emo cutter because aren't all vampires that way? Trust me, I used to hang out on the Godawful Fanfiction Forum and I've seen some pretty sick stuff that the fankiddies cook up...
the part about thomas being a debauched weepy emo cutter is my favorite part of this rant/statement ;D
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"Likewise, no matter how much he likes it, he can't give it his seal of approval?"
He can't even KNOW about it to give an opinion. It's not a contractual thing, it's the copyright system. If he knows, he HAS to put a stop to it, or he weakens his copyright.
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I would take that to mean if you would like jim to stop by now and then---as Helen would say, "STFU!" ;D
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I posted this already, but the database issue caused it to get lost. The first part is sort-of reduntant now, but I'll include it.
There used to be a set of rules here on the forum that said, in a nutshell, on the subject of fanfics, don't. We don't want Jim to have to get the lawyers out, and he would have to.
That's the first part. Having said that, if you ever get the chance to meet Jim, ask him about fanfics. This'll work particularly well if he's in front of a crowd. He'll tell you the official story, but trust me, the way he does it in person is funny enough to be worth the effort!
It was in Toronto, anyway, and I doubt it would be different anyplace else...
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That's the first part. Having said that, if you ever get the chance to meet Jim, ask him about fanfics. This'll work particularly well if he's in front of a crowd. He'll tell you the official story, but trust me, the way he does it in person is funny enough to be worth the effort!
It was in Toronto, anyway, and I doubt it would be different anyplace else...
Heh! Just from his interviews that I've heard (audio and one or two video interviews), he seems like as great a storyteller in person as he is a writer, so if I ever get lucky to meet him, I'll be sure to ask. I have a feeling it's as good a story as the one about Terry Prachett playfully yelping and diving under a table when someone told him she was a fanfic writer.
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Heh! Just from his interviews that I've heard (audio and one or two video interviews), he seems like as great a storyteller in person as he is a writer, so if I ever get lucky to meet him, I'll be sure to ask. I have a feeling it's as good a story as the one about Terry Prachett playfully yelping and diving under a table when someone told him she was a fanfic writer.
Dude likes to talk. Fortunately, he's good at it and REALLY enjoys it - and it shows.
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At MileHi he read about an hour worth from the beginning of Turn Coat off his laptop. Worth the entire trip just for that part!
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Things like "Harry's long lost twin sister who's never mentioned in the books and OMG SHEEZ JSUT AZ POWAHFULL @ MAGICK!!!11", or fics with Justin DuMorne/Morningway molesting Harry as a kid, or Michael being warped into a rabid fanatic who eats babies, or Thomas getting deboched into a weepy emo cutter because aren't all vampires that way? Trust me, I used to hang out on the Godawful Fanfiction Forum and I've seen some pretty sick stuff that the fankiddies cook up...
Where can I find this? I need to indulge my inner masochist...things like the heretofore unknown twin sister who comes in from nowhere and kicks Harry's a*s at magic (known in the biz as a Mary Sue story), and who bears a suspicious resemblance to the fanfic author...stuff like what you describe; it's like the argument that says we cannot truly ban/erase all Evil, as then we would have no measuring stick by which to establish how wonderful Good is.
Really bad fanfic makes the most formulaic, same-plotline-every-book author look like Stephen King.
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Where can I find this? I need to indulge my inner masochist...things like the heretofore unknown twin sister who comes in from nowhere and kicks Harry's a*s at magic (known in the biz as a Mary Sue story), and who bears a suspicious resemblance to the fanfic author...stuff like what you describe; it's like the argument that says we cannot truly ban/erase all Evil, as then we would have no measuring stick by which to establish how wonderful Good is.
Really bad fanfic makes the most formulaic, same-plotline-every-book author look like Stephen King.
I believe the URL is http://www.asdvasdasdnklasdnklasdjklasdasdfjklasdfjklasdfasdfasdfjklasdvklavkjfv
kavnsdkanasdfjkvnas;vnaskdjvnaskjdvnask;jdvna;skjdvnas;kjvnasl;kjdvnaskjdvnsl;jthisisahint.net. Be warned, though, the things that get linked to the forum can be brain-breakingly horrible...
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At MileHi he read about an hour worth from the beginning of Turn Coat off his laptop. Worth the entire trip just for that part!
Jim was supposed to do a reading in Toronto, but asked us if we'd prefer a Q & A session instead. He said that he felt a little wierd reading his own work!
He also said that if he starts to read, he'll wind up doing voices and (according to him) it gets a little creepy.
So, any voices? I have to know as his saying that got a lot of us really curious!
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Oh god, you have GOT to hear Jim doing Bob's voice. Worth the price of admission right there.
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Oh god, you have GOT to hear Jim doing Bob's voice. Worth the price of admission right there.
I might just be mentally damaged, but whenever I read Bob, in my head, his voice is perky with a dash of snark. But mostly perky.
NecroBob just sounded like your garden varied whackajob, with a bit of sinister thrown in for good measure.
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I might just be mentally damaged, but whenever I read Bob, in my head, his voice is perky with a dash of snark. But mostly perky.
Watch any interview with Jim. And the answers will show themselves, my son
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Or worse....Slash!
I just can't see Harry and Bob making out or Thomas revealing that deep down he really wanted to be in Harry's yellow ducky boxers.
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Or worse....Slash!
I just can't see Harry and Bob making out or Thomas revealing that deep down he really wanted to be in Harry's yellow ducky boxers.
Anyone that writes Dresden Slash will end up on my death list!!!
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I'm sure it's out there but I sure as hell am NOT hunting for it!
*squicks and twitches*
Nooooo Butt secks necessary!
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I'm sure it's out there but I sure as hell am NOT hunting for it!
*squicks and twitches*
Nooooo Butt secks necessary!
IT's not the sex...I just hate it when people twist the characters for those sorts of stories.
The only thing worse is when the really, cool, strong, and awesome guy/girl shows up to save the day, and they have the same name as the author.....
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I think I remember Priscellie mentioning something about...*shudder* Harry/Marcone slash.
But of course, this is all hypothetical, you know, like fight club
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IT's not the sex...I just hate it when people twist the characters for those sorts of stories.
The only thing worse is when the really, cool, strong, and awesome guy/girl shows up to save the day, and they have the same name as the author.....
In the publishing trade, those are called "Mary Sue" stories, and sometimes, they not only have the same name as the author, but also a highly stylized redrafted description of themselves; for instance...Dan Lister, short, bald, semi-portly Butcher-board smartypants, writes a story about Batman and Robin being saved by a non-canon character who's 6'4", broad-shouldered, hyper-athletic and smarter than Einstein and MacGyver combined...who just happens to be named Dan Lister, nicknamed "Tribblechomper". After saving the world, Tribblechomper gets a free access pass to the Batcave from Batman, who reveals his secret identity to Tribblechomper, who is clearly smarter, stronger, wiser than Batman.
Now, take that little story premise, put it between two slices of bread, add some mayo and mustard...and you have a fine example of a baloney sandwich.
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No, it's not that I mind sex either of any type....hell, I read Yaoi but seriously, if the characters are written a certain way, don't screw with it....ahem (pun may or not may not be intended).
I can't even read drawn Harry Potter or Full Metal Alchemist slash.....or the drawn comic stuff. It's just not natural man!
As for Mary Sue...most of it really sucks and should be kept to oneself, to read over and over again. Not to make our eyes bleed.
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Or worse....Slash!
I just can't see Harry and Bob making out or Thomas revealing that deep down he really wanted to be in Harry's yellow ducky boxers.
No story ideas!
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I just can't see Harry and Bob making out
I really didn't need to be set thinking about what Bob does to get around not having a tongue. Really.
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I really didn't need to be set thinking about what Bob does to get around not having a tongue. Really.
It could be worse...imagine a fanfic with Bob meeting up with Sgt. Foley from Officer & A Gentleman:
"You better stop eyeballing me boy. I'll rip your eyeballs out the sockets and skull- you to death!"
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And what's Harry's stand on Fan Fiction? I wonder if he ever composed a Mary Sue story? ;D
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And what's Harry's stand on Fan Fiction? I wonder if he ever composed a Mary Sue story? ;D
I can see him doing a Mary Sue "Spider-Man" story, just to get it out of his system; showing it to anyone, however...I can't see him doing...better to run it through the shredder after writing it.
After all, not even a writer of Jim's talent can keep a Mary Sue from being regurgitatingly awful...
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No story ideas!
ROFL
I can just see the slash writers furiously at work now...they'd forgotten about those boxers but they are going to now write a story where those suckers are burned into our retinas.
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I really didn't need to be set thinking about what Bob does to get around not having a tongue. Really.
Yes but Jim has already hinted that Bob gets around the fact that he's just a cloud of orange energy as it is, quite nicely.
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It could be worse...imagine a fanfic with Bob meeting up with Sgt. Foley from Officer & A Gentleman:
"You better stop eyeballing me boy. I'll rip your eyeballs out the sockets and skull- you to death!"
Way kinky. Bob would approve I think!
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And what's Harry's stand on Fan Fiction? I wonder if he ever composed a Mary Sue story? ;D
No but I can definitely see Bob composing Mary Sue fiction. Wait where did I read elsewhere on the forum?
"And then Murphy burst in and ripped off her top....." Isn't that how it starts? Something about Bob in a menage et toi?
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Harry did write a bunch of paranormal brochures for his office, didn't he? :-)
They probably came with a fire-disclosure that author was not responsible for accidents.
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No but I can definitely see Bob composing Mary Sue fiction. Wait where did I read elsewhere on the forum?
"And then Murphy burst in and ripped off her top....." Isn't that how it starts? Something about Bob in a menage et toi?
"And then, Lara Raith strode in, masterfully taking charge of the situation by grabbing Murphy in one hand, Bob in the other..."
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Ah ha ha!
I can totally see Bob doing that. A gift for Harry, since Bob thinks he has an appallingly dismal love life.
Does Bob write pervy Mary Sue Fan-fics? Someone should really ask Jim that next time on tour.
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I know a lot of teenagers who've started dabbling in witchcraft/Wicca can get a bit pushy in sharing their new belief system, up to and including writing fanfiction set in fantasy worlds, where they convert all the magically talented characters to Wicca (much as pushy Christians will convert their favorite characters, up to and including villains/antagonists). I've seen it done with Harry Potter and the movie version of John Constantine, and even introducing it to Middle Earth (!). No doubt some teenybopper who's read Silver Ravenwolf's "Teen Witch" a few times too many would do the same to Harry Dresden. Despite his staunch self-identifying as "theological Switzerland" and the bit in Death Masks when Father Forthill asks him if he's ever going to convert from Paganism, and he replies something to the effect that he isn't Pagan, so he doesn't have to.
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"And then Murphy burst in and ripped off her top....." Isn't that how it starts? Something about Bob in a menage et toi?
Until he knows me better, that would more politely be a menage et vous.
I think Bob pretty much does this in "Something Borrowed", fwiw, with the assumptuions he makes when he wakes up in strange places.
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Despite his staunch self-identifying as "theological Switzerland"
And though i know exactly what Harry means by that, every time I read it I still think of Calvinists first and neutrality later.
and the bit in Death Masks when Father Forthill asks him if he's ever going to convert from Paganism, and he replies something to the effect that he isn't Pagan, so he doesn't have to.
There's a kind of mild blurring there between the Catholic tendency to refer to all non-Christians/Jews as pagans, and the way some Wiccans claim "Pagan" as basically meaning Wicca, which I find a bot bothersome because it's disrespectful to Classical pagans, Asatru, and other flavours of contemporary self-identified pagan.
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And though i know exactly what Harry means by that, every time I read it I still think of Calvinists first and neutrality later.
*snort* And I can't help but thinking he's either a fan of the "watchmaker God" belief system or that his theology is full of holes. :D
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And though i know exactly what Harry means by that, every time I read it I still think of Calvinists first and neutrality later.
There's a kind of mild blurring there between the Catholic tendency to refer to all non-Christians/Jews as pagans, and the way some Wiccans claim "Pagan" as basically meaning Wicca, which I find a bot bothersome because it's disrespectful to Classical pagans, Asatru, and other flavours of contemporary self-identified pagan.
:: Snerks:: Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that, re: Calvinists
And yeah, I get aggravated with that too, though I want to think the term used was Pagan with a capital P, which generally is applied to modern followers of earth-based religion(s).
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<------tree huggin' dirt worshipper. Oh and Bacchus. Wine is god. Go drink.
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<------tree huggin' dirt worshipper. Oh and Bacchus. Wine is god. Go drink.
I'm at work, where our only patient, Lucky the Cat, is currently getting quietly drunk thanks to 4mLs per hour of a Vodka solution. See, he drank antifreeze. The easiest, most cost-effective, and just plain effective, solution is to give the body something it would rather digest than ethylene glycol (antifreeze). So you give it ethyl alcohol. The body parties it up with the ethyl alcohol, and meanwhile the kidneys slowly start to process out the ethylene glycol which is just hanging around like a wallflower, waiting for somebody to notice it but everybody's hanging out with the liquor.
True story.
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My cat's name is Sachi...which is Japanese for Lucky...because as a kitten, before we got her, she should have died several times ( a week old with pneumonia, stuff like that)
"After all, not even a writer of Jim's talent can keep a Mary Sue from being regurgitatingly awful..."
Do NOT taunt the writer. He's currently finishing a series that started on an argument that said a good writer couldn't do anything with pokemon and a lost roman legion.
I'd rather see the science fiction series he wants to do, than him get the idea for a Mary Sue series.
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I'd rather see the science fiction series he wants to do, than him get the idea for a Mary Sue series.
Are the two ideas mutually exclusive? ::)
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Are the two ideas mutually exclusive? ::)
For the love of God, I hope so.
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"After all, not even a writer of Jim's talent can keep a Mary Sue from being regurgitatingly awful..."
Do NOT taunt the writer. He's currently finishing a series that started on an argument that said a good writer couldn't do anything with pokemon and a lost roman legion.
I'd rather see the science fiction series he wants to do, than him get the idea for a Mary Sue series.
Has this Pokemon thing been published, and if so, where?
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Has this Pokemon thing been published, and if so, where?
You may have heard of it...it's called "Codex Alera"...
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You may have heard of it...it's called "Codex Alera"...
Was trying to figure the Pokemon angle...I guess I was thinking too literally
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Are the two ideas mutually exclusive? ::)
I have heard people argue that Harry Dresden is a Mary Sue.
This only works if Jim is really masochistic.
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I have heard people argue that Harry Dresden is a Mary Sue.
This only works if Jim is really masochistic.
No, Gary Stu doesn't nearly get his hand burned off, and if he does, it regenerates within a few chapters. Molly initially set off my Sue-dar, until Harry threw the pitcher of water over her at the end of Proven Guilty. Mary Sue would have been knocking boots with him at the end of that book.
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No Mary Sue! At the sake of ruining Harry's sex life. *grin*
Although I seriously cheated. I kinda browsed Small Favor. Kinda weird....
"Hey I uh, shot your body in the back of the head but would you like to talk over chinese?"
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I have heard people argue that Harry Dresden is a Mary Sue.
Nah, Mary Sue's don't get injured. Or embarrassed.
They dont' get crippling injuries or, you know, fight vampires in yellow ducky boxers.
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Nah, Mary Sue's don't get injured. Or embarrassed.
They dont' get crippling injuries or, you know, fight vampires in yellow ducky boxers.
Also don't Mary Sue's get laid....a lot?
I mean, you have to have some sort of sick, masochistic tendencies to purposely make your Mary Sue go without..... ;D
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Also don't Mary Sue's get laid....a lot?
I mean, you have to have some sort of sick, masochistic tendencies to purposely make your Mary Sue go without..... ;D
Well some that irrestibly hot, and awesome and cool clearly has a lot of options!!
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Technically the audience is being tortured too. Since in literary terms, you're more involved with the first person narration. So we're all waiting for Harry to get some nookie so we can live vicariously through that.
Technically, doesn't that make us as bad as Bob?
Wow, I feel so dirty now.
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The definitive Mary Sue = Twilight
Mind you, Anita Blake runs a close second.
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The definitive Mary Sue = Twilight
Mind you, Anita Blake runs a close second.
Agreed on Twilight. I'd go so far as to classify Bella as an Angsty Sue, going by the Mary Sue Classification system: http://mhari.fateback.com/sues.html
I'd put Merry Gentry ahead of Anita Blake, since she didn't really start out as a Mary Sue, but that's just me saying it.
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Twilight is OH YEAH Mary Sue....dead on. And it's sickening how well Mary Sue fiction can do. I could never put myself in Bella's place though. There is nothing in me that thinks throwing aside my individuality for a man is "romantic".
Bleck!
Anita Blake....eh, that's more nookie with some plot thrown in. It's a guilty pleasure! ;D
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I'd put Merry Gentry ahead of Anita Blake, since she didn't really start out as a Mary Sue, but that's just me saying it.
Anita always had Mary Sue elements...notice in the first book how she's always better and more right than everyone??
It's just the plot was enough and the writing was good enough to overcome the Mary Sueish elements.....however, as it went on, the plot changed....and the Mary Sue qualities shined through.
Case in point, Anita in book 12 is the same Anita in book 1, she just has kinkier sex.
The character hasn't GROWN.
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Anita always had Mary Sue elements...notice in the first book how she's always better and more right than everyone??
It's just the plot was enough and the writing was good enough to overcome the Mary Sueish elements.....however, as it went on, the plot changed....and the Mary Sue qualities shined through.
Case in point, Anita in book 12 is the same Anita in book 1, she just has kinkier sex.
The character hasn't GROWN.
You ever think that sometimes, an author does a book as a sort of holding pattern? To appease fans and publishers while they figure out where they are going?
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You ever think that sometimes, an author does a book as a sort of holding pattern? To appease fans and publishers while they figure out where they are going?
yup, like Robert Jordan's last 3!!
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That's sad because ultimately, doesn't it seem like empty calories? No substance.
Sometimes that's what scares me about becoming a professional writer. Eventually the demand is greater than the supply and the pressure should be enough to break anyone's creative process.
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That's sad because ultimately, doesn't it seem like empty calories? No substance.
Sometimes that's what scares me about becoming a professional writer. Eventually the demand is greater than the supply and the pressure should be enough to break anyone's creative process.
Yeah....I often wonder how Jim hasn't burned out or broken down, with his workload.
Still.... :)
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Yeah....I often wonder how Jim hasn't burned out or broken down, with his workload.
Still.... :)
He's probably holding out on us by privately indulging his Mary Sue needs and stashing them where publishers would never go.
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The biggest tip-off that Anita Blake was a Mary Sue was the fact that Anita looks like an idealized version of the author: Tiny, very pale, dark curly/frizzy hair, dark eyes. Then there's the "can do no wrong" feature, every character who tells Anita she's out of line gets killed off or beaten down. And let's not forget the whole thing with her ex-husband/Richard and her then-boyfriend-now-husband/Jean-Claude.
Bah. It's nauseating.
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Wait? They is married?!
Umm....crap, I have NOT been keeping up.
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The biggest tip-off that Anita Blake was a Mary Sue was the fact that Anita looks like an idealized version of the author: Tiny, very pale, dark curly/frizzy hair, dark eyes. Then there's the "can do no wrong" feature, every character who tells Anita she's out of line gets killed off or beaten down.
Bah. It's nauseating.
Yeah.... just remember, no personal comments about the author.
I personally, get sick of the whole 'Anita can do no wrong and every man wants to nail her' crap.
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I was fine with that when she was pretending to be a good little catholic girl, but when the sex scenes lasted chapters and I had to call a friend and say "Do they ever get out of bed and back to the plot?" the honeymoon was over.
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I was fine with that when she was pretending to be a good little catholic girl, but when the sex scenes lasted chapters and I had to call a friend and say "Do they ever get out of bed and back to the plot?" the honeymoon was over.
Yeah....not that the sex is bad...just that there's way too much and it seems, for any reason.
Oh, your son needs to be brought into his power?
He must need to screw Anita.
You need more power to take on your enemies....screw Anita.
Perhaps they should just advertise....."Need more metaphysical muscle? Try Screwing Anita"
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Yeah....not that the sex is bad...just that there's way too much and it seems, for any reason.
Oh, your son needs to be brought into his power?
He must need to screw Anita.
You need more power to take on your enemies....screw Anita.
Perhaps they should just advertise....."Need more metaphysical muscle? Try Screwing Anita"
Want to become a famous author, but lost the talent ages ago? Just go to the fine folks at Anita Screw....after five chapters of horizontal jumping-jacks, you too can be a famous author just like ...Just go to Anita herself and point at the bed and, in your best "I'll take no backtalk from you" voice, say "Anita, screw!"
(Say it out loud to yourself)
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Ouch!
(To be honest, I've always wondered how she can still be so tight? I would think it'd be like flingin' a hot dog down a hallway by now, even with Micah.)
Easy. It's a book about supernaturals, right? - Mickey
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Ouch!
(To be honest, I've always wondered how she can still be so tight? I would think it'd be like flingin' a hot dog down a hallway by now, even with Micah.)
Well, that's the other thing.
EVERY male she sleeps with is impressively well endowed??
I mean....let's be realistic here.
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Ahem, getting back on topic.
How is it that those who write fan fiction can be cracked down on? I thought that as long as you aren't selling it, there isn't much they can do?
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Ahem, getting back on topic.
How is it that those who write fan fiction can be cracked down on? I thought that as long as you aren't selling it, there isn't much they can do?
Technically, you are using someone else's IP.(intellectual property, not Internet protocol) and that's protected under copywrite laws (I believe).
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Yet someone can do things like parodies and fan films without being prosecuted.
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Yet someone can do things like parodies and fan films without being prosecuted.
parodies are allowed under copywrite(again, as far as I know). Fan films..I'm not sure about.
However, whe you write a serious work, using Jim's characters, in his universe, then he can send you a 'cease and desist' letter and sue you if you don't comply.
In reality, unless you are selling it.....it costs him more to do it than he'd likely make from it.
But if he knows about it, he HAS to take some action, or he threatens his own claim to it.
Hence, if you write it, don't talk about it here, and most especially, don't send it to Jim to 'see what he thinks'! :)
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I don't think I could do Dresden any better, unlike another fiction writer who took her characters and turned them into religious freaks who want to become saints and stuff. (Ahem...yep, I've done a bit of fan fiction writing in my time.)
It's kind of like learning to draw by copying other people's stuff first. Eventually the hope is to get good enough to branch off into your own thing.
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Parodies are safe, although I don't remember exactly how they, and satire, are okay. That's how you can get away with stuff like Bored of the Rings, Spaceballs, This is Spinal Tap, etc.
As for fan films, the Star Wars fan films have pretty much just become acknowledged by Lucas and therefore allowed. I never really followed that too much, so I don't know how it went about happening, but I know that around the time the Star Wars celebrations started, Lucas started having the fan film awards. My guess is that a big part of him allowing it would have to do with up and coming filmmakers and wanting to encourage them.
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And then there's Japanese copyright laws which have no qualms about fan-comics (called dojinshi or doujinshi, depending on who's transliterating the word) based off pre-existing anime or manga series, thus you get a wide range of stuff ranging from the interesting-additions-to-the-storyline to wacky parodies to freaky-pr0ny-stuff (don't ask: there are parts of my brain that are irreparably damaged from the awful Neon Genesis Evangelion dojinshi I ran across @.@ ). Not sure about fan-comics inspired by a prose series, but I've seen some eyebrow-raising frames from a Japanese Harry Potter dojinshi. In fact, a number of established manga artists got their head start by producing dojinshi.
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Lucas also has a habit of hiring people who make really good fan films. I think it may be a case of "If you can't beat them, have them join you."
Clearly there is enough love there from the fans who take the time to try and do something right. Sometimes there is real craftsmanship and love behind fan based creations.
I know the guy who did the Batman vs. Predator short film ended up with a job on Predator vs. Aliens.
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Sometimes I kind of wish they would ease up a bit on fan fiction writers. You have some really good ones out there that counter balance the really bad ones.
People are going to do it anyway and the lawyers end up sucking more money out of the authors just trying to pursue a cease and desist.
I could understand if fans were selling the stories but if they're just doing it as an exercise of love and creativity.....bah.
Not like it's going to change anyway.
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There are also authors out there who have stood up and said, "Ya know, I know it's out there and I don't mind it."
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I've said this before in this forum, and probably will again...
The sad truth about fanfic writers is, like so many other things, it only takes one to ruin it. Anne McCaffrey initially allowed Pern fanfics, until (as I recall the story) something that was written in one of her novels had been portrayed in a fanfic. Rather than accepting that she'd simply had the same idea, the fanfic author claimed McCaffrey had copied her and looked into legal action. In the end, McCaffrey had no choice but to officially demand that no fanfics be done based on her work.
Here's one of the dangers. If you can write even a halfway decent story and decide to do one based on someone else's work, there's going to be some overlap. Often times an author foreshadows things well enough that it's easy enough to come up with at least some of what they're going to do! If people thought "cool, I figured out what they were going to write" then no harm, no foul. The problem is people who decide they've been robbed and start harassing the author.
I remember a case of a Harry Potter fanfic writer who rewrote the first book from Hermione's POV. Same story, same characters, different POV. At the top of the story, that was posted on her website, she listed that she held the copywrite on all characters and the story! Warner Brothers, who'd just paid a fortune for some of those rights, was somewhat perturbed.
The bottom line is this. Writing fanfics isn't bad per se. The problems occur based on what you do with the fanfics, especially in the Internet age. Sadly, enough fanfic authors have caused the original authors problems (and cost them money) that they have to respond.
Even George Lucas, who has no problem with Star Wars fanfics, has had to stand up at least once. About a year ago we had a discussion here about "Star Wars: Another Hope".
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Oh yeah, never thought of it that way. Even though I think a majority of people would say that as the author's creation, it's their ball game, there would be some jerk out there trying to turn things around by saying the author was copying them. *sighs*
At least it's not fashion design. With fashion design, the only thing you can claim rights over, is material that has the name of the designer woven into the fabric. So there is free license on anything cool you can come up with to wear. Say you draw out this really funky original design on a coat and show it to your best friend or even put it up on the net. Your best friend could turn around and draw pretty much the exact same thing and claim it was their original idea. Worse, you could both make the same outfit and both could claim it as an orignal design. The only way you could say that it was definitely your pattern and exclusive to you is if you took that same coat and made it out of material that had your name all over it.
It's why it's so hard to bust people for knock offs. The only way the law can really crack down on them is if they copy the logo letter for letter. Which is why you'll see purses that look like Chanel but the C's on the purses are changed to turn inward instead or Disny instead of Disney apparel.
For me, I don't see any harm in someone going out and getting their own materials to make an outfit on their own that would be ridiculously out of their price range but I think it's wrong for those same people to start making copy after copy and then selling them to the mass market for a quarter of the price.
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There are also some authors who will allow fan fiction. But then they also have very strict guidelines for it and have a form you have to fill out for them to approve, and then it also basically says that they own the work. Mercedes Lackey did that, I don't know if she still does, and got the form from Marian Zimmer Bradley. While searching for Mercedes Lackey and finding that out, it looks like at least one fan fic she approved was actually published. I can see how using that form would be a good thing, because it keeps the person who wants to write the fan fic from changing the characters.
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Here's a link to one of the better articles written on the subject. Make sure you also read the notes at the bottom, they're interesting, too. There are quotes from popular authors, from fans, and from fanfic writers/readers.
Fan Fiction, Novels, Copyright, and Ethics by Michela Ecks (http://www.whoosh.org/issue62/ecks2.html#backnote0)
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yup, like Robert Jordan's last 3!!
Jordan had the whole series plan down before he started writing; the middle grew in the telling, but as I understand it there was never any doubt about there the end would be. So "holding pattern while he figured out where he was going" is not the failure mode there.
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Yeah....not that the sex is bad...just that there's way too much and it seems, for any reason.
Oh, your son needs to be brought into his power?
He must need to screw Anita.
You need more power to take on your enemies....screw Anita.
Perhaps they should just advertise....."Need more metaphysical muscle? Try Screwing Anita"
I actually find this morally preferable to "Anita needs to have more interesting sex, so let's enable her to do it guilt-free by having horrible things happen to other people until and unless she does it", fwiw.
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Parodies are safe, although I don't remember exactly how they, and satire, are okay. That's how you can get away with stuff like Bored of the Rings, Spaceballs, This is Spinal Tap, etc.
Parodies are safe provided they're not too close to pastiche; look up Mickey Mouse and the Air Pirates sometime.
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The sad truth about fanfic writers is, like so many other things, it only takes one to ruin it. Anne McCaffrey initially allowed Pern fanfics, until (as I recall the story) something that was written in one of her novels had been portrayed in a fanfic. Rather than accepting that she'd simply had the same idea, the fanfic author claimed McCaffrey had copied her and looked into legal action. In the end, McCaffrey had no choice but to officially demand that no fanfics be done based on her work.
It may be worth noting that Pratchett and Gaiman have AIUI given specific individual fanfic authors permission where Good Omens is concerned.
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Well, that's the other thing.
EVERY male she sleeps with is impressively well endowed??
I mean....let's be realistic here.
It's the Extense...
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Does anyone know the specifics of say....a relative taking over and finishing novels? Does the money go to the relative for finishing the writing and putting out the work or does it go to an estate of some kind? Or is it split even?
I know Tolkien's son put out work along with other author's kids or brothers or sisters.....
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Does anyone know the specifics of say....a relative taking over and finishing novels? Does the money go to the relative for finishing the writing and putting out the work or does it go to an estate of some kind? Or is it split even?
Depends entirely how the author's will is set up.
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I beleive the relative would have to have inherited the author's copyrights in order to work on their existing characters.
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Jordan had the whole series plan down before he started writing; the middle grew in the telling, but as I understand it there was never any doubt about there the end would be. So "holding pattern while he figured out where he was going" is not the failure mode there.
If he had the plan down, then why the 3 or 4 books of nothing happening and pointless meandering?
Sorry, but it IS a failure....he trailed off into minutae in the middle of his story...that is a story telling 'DON'T'.
If he couldn't figure out where he was going, then in my opinion, he needed to sit down and work that out, not just write more books with the idea that eventually he'd work it out.
Knowing the end is important, but just as important, or possibly more, is HOW you get there.
We know Dresden is going to survive, in The Dresden Files books, we KNOW that ending. It's what he does to solve the problem and how he does it that suckers us in!
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Ha ha! So it becomes kind of like what some said about the second Matrix movie? That it could have been easily integrated into the last movie, still been viable and not been such a waste of money or time with very little plot?
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But... but... you would've deprived moviegoers of all that CGI goodiness?!? :D
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Ha ha! So it becomes kind of like what some said about the second Matrix movie? That it could have been easily integrated into the last movie, still been viable and not been such a waste of money or time with very little plot?
Nah, I liked the 2nd Matrix movie....I just think they shot themselves in the foot with their ending of the first one.
Jordans books dragged...plot points didn't move, characters stagnated, a whole host of new minor characters were introduced....and some of them started out as more powerful than a bunch of the mains, who were already far more powerful than the norm.
Basically, it seemed like he'd lost the thread of his story and it was flailing everywhich way, like a firehose that's turned on with no one holding it.
Some water hit the fire, but it wasn't a concentrated stream.
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But... but... you would've deprived moviegoers of all that CGI goodiness?!? :D
ROFLcopter for you!
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Nah, I liked the 2nd Matrix movie....I just think they shot themselves in the foot with their ending of the first one.
Jordans books dragged...plot points didn't move, characters stagnated, a whole host of new minor characters were introduced....and some of them started out as more powerful than a bunch of the mains, who were already far more powerful than the norm.
Basically, it seemed like he'd lost the thread of his story and it was flailing everywhich way, like a firehose that's turned on with no one holding it.
Some water hit the fire, but it wasn't a concentrated stream.
Jordan is foggy territory for me since I've never read any of his books.....now if you talk to me about Anne Rice and great big huge feckin' books full of stupidity, pointless characters and nothing, I'm sitting right over here.
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But... but... you would've deprived moviegoers of all that CGI goodiness?!? :D
My biggest probelm with Matrix Reloaded?
The completely gratuitous Zion orgy scene.
I mean, wtf??
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Jordan is foggy territory for me since I've never read any of his books.....now if you talk to me about Anne Rice and great big huge feckin' books full of stupidity, pointless characters and nothing, I'm sitting right over here.
I refuse to read Anne Rice...partly for that reason, mostly because I don't like her stuff.
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Nah, I liked the 2nd Matrix movie....I just think they shot themselves in the foot with their ending of the first one.
Jordans books dragged...plot points didn't move, characters stagnated, a whole host of new minor characters were introduced....and some of them started out as more powerful than a bunch of the mains, who were already far more powerful than the norm.
Basically, it seemed like he'd lost the thread of his story and it was flailing everywhich way, like a firehose that's turned on with no one holding it.
Some water hit the fire, but it wasn't a concentrated stream.
I've tried, but I always fail to be able to see it this way. I saw it as Jordan creating a real world, with real things and real complications. To me, it made MORE sense for the world to bog itself down into politics and details in order for Tarmon Gai'don to be a REAL Big Deal. Real people lose themselves in the daily minutiae until the Big Deal steps up and nails them all collectively with the Almost Too Late stick. It just wouldn't have the same impact for me if Rand HAD united all the nations and gotten them primed and ready for TG; lessons from real-world wars and the inwardly-turned focus leading up to them are apparent in Jordan's writing.
PS: Oh, and the part-2 giggity? Yeah, that was useless.
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My biggest probelm with Matrix Reloaded?
The completely gratuitous Zion orgy scene.
I mean, wtf??
You mean you need to have a plot around porn.....err....orgy scenes?
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You mean you need to have a plot around porn.....err....orgy scenes?
Not if it's a porn movie.
Otherwise, yeah, I'd like to know why, exactly, my characters feel the need to suddenly engage in massive, indiscriminate dance party sex.
The one time I'll relax that stand is the movie is about anthropomorphic bunnies.
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I've tried, but I always fail to be able to see it this way. I saw it as Jordan creating a real world, with real things and real complications. To me, it made MORE sense for the world to bog itself down into politics and details in order for Tarmon Gai'don to be a REAL Big Deal. Real people lose themselves in the daily minutiae until the Big Deal steps up and nails them all collectively with the Almost Too Late stick. It just wouldn't have the same impact for me if Rand HAD united all the nations and gotten them primed and ready for TG; lessons from real-world wars and the inwardly-turned focus leading up to them are apparent in Jordan's writing.
PS: Oh, and the part-2 giggity? Yeah, that was useless.
The problems with Elayne claiming the throne, I could see.
Some of Rand's problems, I could.
The crap with Perrin running around going 'Faile!!!!!".....no.
The sniffing, the crap with all the women with 'strong personalities' trying to push each other around....
It was just boring.
And it wasn't that it was there...that can be dealt with. It was more that the plot did not ADVANCE at all, and all this crap was around for 3 books. Nothing changed. Nothing got better. Nothing was resolved for good or ill.
I can see the real world lessons you're talking about but.....it's a fantast book series. It does contain an element of just hand waving away stuff that 'wouldn't happen in the real world'.
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The one time I'll relax that stand is the movie is about anthropomorphic bunnies.
I must have really missed that one! :o
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I must have really missed that one! :o
Umm..hopefully it has not, and will never be, made.
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Umm..hopefully it has not, and will never be, made.
I am definitely with you on that one!
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The problems with Elayne claiming the throne, I could see.
Some of Rand's problems, I could.
The crap with Perrin running around going 'Faile!!!!!".....no.
The sniffing, the crap with all the women with 'strong personalities' trying to push each other around....
It was just boring.
And it wasn't that it was there...that can be dealt with. It was more that the plot did not ADVANCE at all, and all this crap was around for 3 books. Nothing changed. Nothing got better. Nothing was resolved for good or ill.
I can see the real world lessons you're talking about but.....it's a fantast book series. It does contain an element of just hand waving away stuff that 'wouldn't happen in the real world'.
I understand your stance perfectly and even sympathize - it's a book and should cut to the chase, right? The thing is that people do obsess over their own little corner even in the face of Worldwide Doom, and jerks remain jerks. People don't just see the global problem and magically stand shoulder-to-shoulder, even the ones who have personally SEEN the path to destruction with their own eyes. The "me and mine" syndrome for some of the better-minded, while the more self-centered batten down the hatches on the S.S. Jerkwad. As much as Jordania gynocracy and its inevitable mulishness irritate me, it's very much in keeping with What People Really Are.
It bugs me as a reader-for-entertainment, too, yes, but I respect Jordan's world-building even more as a result.
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I understand your stance perfectly and even sympathize - it's a book and should cut to the chase, right? The thing is that people do obsess over their own little corner even in the face of Worldwide Doom, and jerks remain jerks. People don't just see the global problem and magically stand shoulder-to-shoulder, even the ones who have personally SEEN the path to destruction with their own eyes. The "me and mine" syndrome for some of the better-minded, while the more self-centered batten down the hatches on the S.S. Jerkwad. As much as Jordania gynocracy and its inevitable mulishness irritate me, it's very much in keeping with What People Really Are.
It bugs me as a reader-for-entertainment, too, yes, but I respect Jordan's world-building even more as a result.
Nah, it's not so much cut to the chase...it's that' the earlier books also had this stuff in it, but the plot took it in stride....there was a plan, it was heading down a track , and while things like this happened...it didn't derail the book.
In teh later ones, it seemed like he wasn't sure what to do with a scene, or he got bored with his mains, so he spent a LOT of time on some of his minors....just unfocused writing, rather than focused.
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Ha ha! So it becomes kind of like what some said about the second Matrix movie? That it could have been easily integrated into the last movie, still been viable and not been such a waste of money or time with very little plot?
*****
You have that backwards...they could have taken the invasion of Zion out of the 3rd movie, tossed away the rest, and put it in the 2nd. As it is, they set up a whole bunch of SMART scifi in the 2nd, then tossed it out for the 3rd and replaced it with the Second Coming nonsense.
As for Jim, remember folks, he's not stomping on fan fic, he's not jackbooting about...he is asking not to know, so he doesn't HAVE to, by law, take action. IE, he doesn't give a damn, and would rather not be made to give a damn.
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Nah, it's not so much cut to the chase...it's that' the earlier books also had this stuff in it, but the plot took it in stride....there was a plan, it was heading down a track , and while things like this happened...it didn't derail the book.
In teh later ones, it seemed like he wasn't sure what to do with a scene, or he got bored with his mains, so he spent a LOT of time on some of his minors....just unfocused writing, rather than focused.
This goes to my point; I feel it was intended to be this way, to show that the people in the plot are unfocused, as discussed above. The Rand-machine, the Dragon's situation, was smaller earlier in the story; as such, it was easier to maneuver. But once everything gets too big, people's minds simply can't wrap themselves around it and retreat to the safety of the familiar - i.e., personal power, wishes, etc. - and it all falls apart. It's not that Jordan's writing became unfocused in my thought; it's that the characters themselves became unfocused.
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This goes to my point; I feel it was intended to be this way, to show that the people in the plot are unfocused, as discussed above. The Rand-machine, the Dragon's situation, was smaller earlier in the story; as such, it was easier to maneuver. But once everything gets too big, people's minds simply can't wrap themselves around it and retreat to the safety of the familiar - i.e., personal power, wishes, etc. - and it all falls apart. It's not that Jordan's writing became unfocused in my thought; it's that the characters themselves became unfocused.
Ah ok.....yeah I didn't get taht feeling.
I can see he was trying to show a world falling apart...but at the same time....it just dragged on too long.
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As for Jim, remember folks, he's not stomping on fan fic, he's not jackbooting about...he is asking not to know, so he doesn't HAVE to, by law, take action. IE, he doesn't give a damn, and would rather not be made to give a damn.
Going waaaay back in this thread, this is why I said you have to ask Jim himself if you get the chance to see him in person.
His response to the question of fanfic was actually a lot of fun.
As for later, I was responding to the comment about why authors have to come down so hard when they do know about it!
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This goes to my point; I feel it was intended to be this way, to show that the people in the plot are unfocused, as discussed above. The Rand-machine, the Dragon's situation, was smaller earlier in the story; as such, it was easier to maneuver. But once everything gets too big, people's minds simply can't wrap themselves around it and retreat to the safety of the familiar - i.e., personal power, wishes, etc. - and it all falls apart. It's not that Jordan's writing became unfocused in my thought; it's that the characters themselves became unfocused.
This actually makes quite a bit of sense. I remember reading an interview with Jordan several years ago. He said that he knew exactly how the story was going to end, and has known since he started writing. One thing I really remember that sticks out is that he said there were going to be quite a few loose ends that weren't going to be tied up. Because that's how real life is. Everything's not tied up in a neat little bow with no loose ends at all like Lucas did with the SW prequels.
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This actually makes quite a bit of sense. I remember reading an interview with Jordan several years ago. He said that he knew exactly how the story was going to end, and has known since he started writing. One thing I really remember that sticks out is that he said there were going to be quite a few loose ends that weren't going to be tied up. Because that's how real life is. Everything's not tied up in a neat little bow with no loose ends at all like Lucas did with the SW prequels.
Exactly. DF, it feels that way even to me... but that's like dealing with the government. Too real and too icky.
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Exactly. DF, it feels that way even to me... but that's like dealing with the government. Too real and too icky.
Eh...I don't read for it to be like real life!!! :)
Basically, while I agree, that sort of thing would happen in real life, he suddenly sprung it out in the middle of a 10+ book series.
He had obstacles and his hero's overcoming them, then all of sudden, his hero's are practically impotent, there's thousands of side plots, tons of new characters involved in said side plots......to the point where his books chapters jump from character to character.
LIke I said, it feels to me like he just lost control, rather than trying to simulate real life.
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Fair enough. I kind of had the "whoa, wait, when did everything start bogging down?" feeling myself, but only before I re-read the series. The slowdown has been building up since the beginning; it's just not obvious because they somehow manage to punch through and succeed early on.
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My biggest probelm with Matrix Reloaded?
The completely gratuitous Zion orgy scene.
I mean, wtf??
We want to see these people are Cool, so big multi-racial dance party with visible gay couples and triads if you look closely. Works for me.
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yay.
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We want to see these people are Cool, so big multi-racial dance party with visible gay couples and triads if you look closely. Works for me.
Yeah...just don't see how it fits into the plot.
Unless that's how Zion celebrates all announcements of doom
Multi-racial orgy.
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I got the feeling it was how Zion celebrated everything.
One could almost imagine people going about their day to day life, having conversations starting with "You going to the orgy tonight?"
I also got the feeling that they really encouraged breeding, so....
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One could almost imagine people going about their day to day life, having conversations starting with "You going to the orgy tonight?"
Rome was burning for other reasons...
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Fair enough. I kind of had the "whoa, wait, when did everything start bogging down?" feeling myself, but only before I re-read the series. The slowdown has been building up since the beginning; it's just not obvious because they somehow manage to punch through and succeed early on.
That was one thing I really like with Jordan. There seemed to be so much pointless crap in so many of the later books, but then I went back and reread them one after another, I picked up a lot of stuff that made more sense that way. Doesn't make quite the same sense when you go several years between books.
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Yup. It's like following politics by watching Headline News once a month. ;D
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Yup. It's like following politics by watching Headline News once a month. ;D
Does anyone know who won the election, McCain or Obama?
(*puts away smarta$$ hat*)
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Going waaaay back in this thread, this is why I said you have to ask Jim himself if you get the chance to see him in person.
His response to the question of fanfic was actually a lot of fun.
As for later, I was responding to the comment about why authors have to come down so hard when they do know about it!
Oh, I know, I was making sure other people didn't think Jim was being Di$neye$que.
Re: The Matrix party: Folks, it's the only time you get to see them enjoying life.
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One could almost imagine people going about their day to day life, having conversations starting with "You going to the orgy tonight?"
"But what are you doing after the orgy ?"
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"But what are you doing after the orgy ?"
LOL If someone ever asks me that questions, I'll have truly seen everything.
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Collapse. DUH.
Either that, or watch Caligula.
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Collapse. DUH.
Either that, or watch Caligula.
Ahh Little Boots....frightening.