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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: blackstaff67 on December 20, 2012, 04:22:59 AM
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I have a player that wants to model type of Holy Warrior with powers. Refresh cost aside, does Sponsored Magic free you from the penalties of Lawbreaking, even if it's done pursuing the service of the Sponsor? If this has already been discussed, drop a link by reply. My apologies if it's already been discussed.
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It has been discussed five billion times or more (okay, hyperbole, but it gets discussed a lot). There is no consensus of any sort. Some people (including myself) believe you'd still get Lawbreaker, while others think you don't. No clear answer has been determined.
This thread will rapidly become another such argument, but that's the heart of things. It's really up to you, the GM.
Though...I am a bit curious why a Holy Warrior would need an answer to that question. I mean, is he killing human beings with magic? Because that's really the only Lawbreaking I can think of that any sort of Holy Warrior should even be contemplating and even there, well, I'd just get a sword or axe and use that instead.
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Bah, there are tons of ways for a Holy Warrior to break laws (some of this depends on their sect):
1. Smiting
2. Miraculous Transformation, certain levels of 'Healing'
3. Inquisition!
4. Geas; Casting out the Devil (when not actually expelling possession)
5. Resurrection
6. Set right what once went wrong?
7. Do I even need to explain this?
But in general, so long as the spell is done at the mortal casters choice, even if imbued with immortal power, the mortal is still on the hook. When it's not their choice, well, things get quagmirey real quick and I decline to participate in that argument, again.
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Basically she wanted to use magic to smite her foes, human and otherwise. She thought that a Sponsored Power would "run interference" (her words) since such activity was in pursuit of her goals (Protect all women from harm). Nothing about the other six Laws (though the 2nd, Thou may not Transform another, runs close to the 1st Law).
She's a Mercedes Lackey fan, so I smiled and remembered my favorite quote from the rules, "Actions have consequences."
Again, my apologies to one and all.
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Because you asked for links, here's what I found with a quick forum search:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29919.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29919.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19574.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19574.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24028.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24028.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26767.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26767.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23885.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23885.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30762.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30762.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18296.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18296.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18574.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18574.0.html)
And here's what I found with a quick Google search:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?591109-Dresden-Files-RPG-Questions-about-Sponsored-Magic
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/15442/are-changelings-with-sponsored-magic-subject-to-the-laws-of-magic (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/15442/are-changelings-with-sponsored-magic-subject-to-the-laws-of-magic)
I didn't put much effort in, and Google doesn't work on this forum. Plus the forum's search function is lousy. So you can safely assume that this is just a small fraction of the discussions that have been had on this topic.
PS: If you see me in those threads, bear in mind that past me is pretty dumb compared to present me. At least, present me thinks so.
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Basically she wanted to use magic to smite her foes, human and otherwise. She thought that a Sponsored Power would "run interference" (her words) since such activity was in pursuit of her goals (Protect all women from harm). Nothing about the other six Laws (though the 2nd, Thou may not Transform another, runs close to the 1st Law).
Up to you whether it works. Personally, even if I let it keep her from getting the Stunt (which I wouldn't), I'd have the Wardens come down on her like a ton of bricks. It's what they'd do, after all.
She's a Mercedes Lackey fan, so I smiled and remembered my favorite quote from the rules, "Actions have consequences."
Honestly, that makes it weirder. Killing people with magic isn't very approved of in any Mercedes Lackey I've ever read (though it's not nearly as bad as in the Dresden Files, admittedly).
Again, my apologies to one and all.
No need to apologize, this comes up now and then.
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You may also want to consider the agenda of the sponsored magic (if soulfire, or similar - for the holy warrior style, then i'd argue that the rules of magic are pretty lightweight compared to the rules you would have to adhere to, as an agent of the almighty - you should possibly be considering a good long look at the behaviour and attitudes of the knights of the cross)
Also, If you are not an emissary of power, even if you decide that the lawbreaker rules don't apply - the white council may still consider you a mortal wizard, and react accordingly (if you are an emissary of power to a signatory of the accords, then the white council don't get a say in any punishments you may incur)
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If you're using the White God, even if the sponsor could run interference with the Laws, I think (s)he's pretty much all about free choice and if your holy warrior starts walking the wrong path, the White God isn't going to stop them. Sure, They might lose their access to the sponsored magic, but they'll still get the Lawbreaker stuff. Which would suck because I'm not even sure if Lawbreaker is compatible with that sponsor...
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I would say look to narrative rather than the mechanical for that answer. If the sponsor is a signatory of the accords, then lawbreaker probably doesn't apply and they are out of the White Councils jurisdiction. If not then lawbreaker power or no, they will come down hard.
Myself, it would depend on if I felt my players were using it as an excuse to abuse a rules loophole. If they are playing to their character and it's making the game more interesting, no lawbreaker power. Not to say they wouldn't have to deal with the fallout from breaking said law. If I feel they are just using it as a means to kill off npc's free and clear, lawbreaker.
Much how it isin the narrative, let the players intent determine if lawbreaker is needed.
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I would say that at least some Sponsors would have the ability to prevent their Emmisarys from being spiritually affected by Lawbreaking. After all, if an artifact like the Blackstaff could do it why not a sufficiently powerful Sponsor?
Of course, such a benefit might not come for free. I could see a character racking up Debt everytime their Sponsor intervened to prevent their Lawbreaking from touching them.
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I would say that at least some Sponsors would have the ability to prevent their Emmisary's from being spiritually affected by Lawbreaking. After all, if an artifact like the Blackstaff could do it why not sufficiently powerful Sponsor?
Of course, such a benefit might not come for free. I could see a character racking up Debt everytime their Sponsor intervened to prevent their Lawbreaking from touching them.
Quite possibly the best solution I've seen; dopeslap to myself for not thinking of it first.
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Quite possibly the best solution I've seen; dopeslap to myself for not thinking of it first.
If you do this, I recommend permanent sponsor debt of some sort (like one or two points every session that gets her nothing) to reflect the appropriate level of owing going on there. It's saving her one or two permanent Refresh, the price should be commensurate.
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If you do this, I recommend permanent sponsor debt of some sort (like one or two points every session that gets her nothing) to reflect the appropriate level of owing going on there. It's saving her one or two permanent Refresh, the price should be commensurate.
Only if they're actually gaining the Lawbreaker power. If they're taking debt to AVOID the Lawbreaker power, then that sort of 'Refresh Debt' would not, imo, be appropriate.
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Only if they're actually gaining the Lawbreaker power. If they're taking debt to AVOID the Lawbreaker power, then that sort of 'Refresh Debt' would not, imo, be appropriate.
Huh? How would a permanent penalty like that be appropriate if they also get Lawbreaker? Charging people twice for one action seems unfair.
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I suspect he meant gaining the positive side of Lawbreaker; gaining a +1 or +2 to spellcasting when breaking the law again.
It makes sense from a story point of view - you've paid for the ability through permanent debt. However, I'd be wary of using this as a way to bypass refresh limits.
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I feel it would come up in the story quite a few times anyway, posibly gaining an aspect relating to it.
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I suspect he meant gaining the positive side of Lawbreaker; gaining a +1 or +2 to spellcasting when breaking the law again.
It makes sense from a story point of view - you've paid for the ability through permanent debt. However, I'd be wary of using this as a way to bypass refresh limits.
Well, you can always get more sponsor debt, if you want to increase your spells, so the bonus from lawbreaker isn't really necessary. And I would not give the bonus without the power, that's what it's there for (among other things).
You might also want to consider, that some sponsors might actually require a lawbreaker, especially the darker ones. Or maybe not so much require, but a sponsor will be drawn to people close to himself, so a murderous and violent sponsor will look for people prone to murder and violence. A mental magic sponsor will look for people that like playing mindgames with people. It will be a very very rare case, where a normal, decent guy will get sponsored magic like that and use it, without being twisted around. Not necessarily in a magical way, but inflicting pain and suffering on people will leave its mark, even if it is just plain old guilt. This conflict should definitely be reflected in a character like that. And if you are in sync with your sponsor, and it is a "bad" sponsor, why not take the lawbreaker anyway, since it seems you want to play exactly that sort of character.
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You might also want to consider, that some sponsors might actually require a lawbreaker, especially the darker ones. Or maybe not so much require, but a sponsor will be drawn to people close to himself, so a murderous and violent sponsor will look for people prone to murder and violence. A mental magic sponsor will look for people that like playing mindgames with people. It will be a very very rare case, where a normal, decent guy will get sponsored magic like that and use it, without being twisted around. Not necessarily in a magical way, but inflicting pain and suffering on people will leave its mark, even if it is just plain old guilt. This conflict should definitely be reflected in a character like that. And if you are in sync with your sponsor, and it is a "bad" sponsor, why not take the lawbreaker anyway, since it seems you want to play exactly that sort of character.
Which is why a benevolent sponsor wouldn't really jive with a Lawbreaker and why I don't think a benevolent sponsor would take the hit for Lawbreaking. You'd be heavily compelled not to break the law but when you get your Lawbreaker Power you'd probably have a harder time using your sponsored magic...and I'd definitely say that you wouldn't get the bonus from Lawbreaker when using that sponsored magic.
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Which is why a benevolent sponsor wouldn't really jive with a Lawbreaker and why I don't think a benevolent sponsor would take the hit for Lawbreaking. You'd be heavily compelled not to break the law but when you get your Lawbreaker Power you'd probably have a harder time using your sponsored magic...and I'd definitely say that you wouldn't get the bonus from Lawbreaker when using that sponsored magic.
Right, I hadn't even thought that far. Think about a lawbreaker first with soulfire. That would be really hard to justify with the power, let alone having the sponsor take that fall.
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Soulfire isn't actually under anyone's control, so that one could in fact work. I agree more generally, though. Truly benevolent entities are gonna be less than pleased with this. Of course, some 'benevolent' deities might consider it fine...I have a hard time thinking of, say, Artemis having a problem with Breaking the 1st or 2nd Laws given her nature as a hunter and the whole thing with the hunter who saw her naked...
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You can't even use the power much less take debt unless your action meets the sponsor's agenda.
Well, you can always get more sponsor debt, if you want to increase your spells, so the bonus from lawbreaker isn't really necessary.
It's not the debt, it's the free compels you're taking by making it permanent. /D's advocate.
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I suspect he meant gaining the positive side of Lawbreaker; gaining a +1 or +2 to spellcasting when breaking the law again.
It makes sense from a story point of view - you've paid for the ability through permanent debt. However, I'd be wary of using this as a way to bypass refresh limits.
I suppose something like that's probably fair. You're never getting out of debt, though.
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I could see a few "Benevolent" Sponsors that allowed (or required in the case of "preexisting" loops) the creation (maintenance?) of specific stable predestination loops, in violation of the 6th law. If it's of the "This has already happened and you !!MUST!! keep the loop stable!", commandment sort, then it's possible the sponsor might shield you from the normal spiritual consequences so long as you stick to the script. Probably doesn't protect you from the Wardens though.
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The concept was something from something called the Oathbound series by M. Lackey; basically a warrior-mage following a deity's agenda of protecting all women. Toyed with mebbe allowing it for defending/following the agenda but only that--but letting the player discover that through trial and error. Put simply, it's almost like a cop's right to use deadly force only to defend herself and others and that's it. No judge/jury/executioner stuff.
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I can see Need as an Item of Power. Say two builds with wizards tapping one build (being gifted weapon skills) and the warriors tapping the other (gaining protection from magic).
But that series has very fantasy style magic - and that wizard (while White) would be breaking several laws of the DV. Beyond the typical S&S 'killing with magic' there's that time she transformed a serial rapist into an attractive young woman, knowing that sending him/her off alone would probably result a gang rape that ended in murder.
In short, that's a very different style of play from the default DFRPG, but there are threads here about converting the game to other styles, so if that's what you want to do then that's what your group should do.
I'd suggest big time sponsor debt every time that she breaks the laws and using that debt to derail the plot - sending her away from the main plot to protect battered women, helpless children, and laying out Justice on mundanes who abuse the helpless.
Richard
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My suggestion, as far as whether or not Sponsored Magic causes Lawbreaker or not, is that if they are a PC, using magic to break a Law (regardless of Sponsor) will net them Lawbreaker. Said Sponsor only affects how much guff the Council can give them.
As far as the idea of Sponsor Debt being used to prevent Lawbreaker... Personally I don't like it, but it's your call.
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I think I'm going to officially decide (unless future things prove otherwise): Mortal spell-casting equals opportunity for Lawbreaking, regardless of source. Come to think of it, I certainly don't recall any of the Alphas as Lawbreakers (but then, I don't recall any of them actually killing any mortals--crippling/disabling, yes, but not killing).
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Killing people physically, even aided indirectly by magic, doesn't get you Lawbreaker. An Alpha biting someone's throat out doesn't get Lawbreaker any more than a Warden who kills them with a sword after using magic to incapacitate them somehow.
Neither directly killed with magic, after all.