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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Discipol on July 26, 2011, 12:51:13 PM
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Hello, this occurred several times in our sessions, the enemy would do an AOE of some sort, like a cloud of acid, and he would use 1 Fate Point to summon enough power.
The question is, who does that Fate Point go to? Our DM gave it to the only one that was damaged, but what if all of us gets damaged?
Does the enemy lose 1 FP and we each get 1 FP?
If the enemy uses one fate point, and we each use 1 FP to defend, does he lose 1 and gain 1 from each of us?
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Nobody gets a FP. The enemy might use a FP to make his control roll for the AOE spell but that FP just goes away.
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Fate points spent on Invoking your own Aspects go away when they're used. No one gets them.
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If you had invoked one of the PCs aspects to lower that persons defense roll against the AOE then that person would have gotten it, but if you invoked the NPCs own aspect to raise the attack power or whatever then it just goes away.
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If you had invoked one of the PCs aspects to lower that persons defense roll against the AOE then that person would have gotten it, but if you invoked the NPCs own aspect to raise the attack power or whatever then it just goes away.
Invoking an Aspect never lowers a roll. You could reasonably rule that an area of effect type attack where the NPC only invoked the Aspect of one PC only got the bonus versus that PC, but the roll of the player for that PC would not change.
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If you had invoked one of the PCs aspects to lower that persons defense roll against the AOE then that person would have gotten it, but if you invoked the NPCs own aspect to raise the attack power or whatever then it just goes away.
That's a compel, not an invoke. And you're right, compelling someone's aspect gives them the Fate Point.
-EF
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You don't really compel an aspect to lower a roll either. Compels are about story direction. So you might compel someone into a bad situation, but you wouldn't really want to compel them into a -2 on their defense roll.
if you invoke an NPC or PC's aspect to gain an advantage over them, that character does receive the FP (YS106).
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You don't really compel an aspect to lower a roll either. Compels are about story direction. So you might compel someone into a bad situation, but you wouldn't really want to compel them into a -2 on their defense roll.
if you invoke an NPC or PC's aspect to gain an advantage over them, that character does receive the FP (YS106).
Huh, I never noticed that! I always thought that compels got you Fate Points, but invokes didn't. You learn something new everyday!
-EF
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Huh? Don't you tag aspects to increase or decrease a roll?
IE: My character's got a 'broken leg' aspect. Someone attacks the character he tags that aspect to lower my roll by 2. Does that mean the fate point goes to me?
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Huh? Don't you tag aspects to increase or decrease a roll?
IE: My character's got a 'broken leg' aspect. Someone attacks the character he tags that aspect to lower my roll by 2. Does that mean the fate point goes to me?
No. If there is no fate point used, there is no fate point to give to anyone. If however the same aspect would be invoked after the initial tag, that would cost a fate point, which now would go to you.
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Huh? Don't you tag aspects to increase or decrease a roll?
Technically you'd tag the aspect to increase the defensive roll rather than trying to decrease the attack roll (or vice versa). The net result isn't much different from decreasing a roll but, canonically, aspects always give a +2 bonus when invoked / tagged.
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Huh? Don't you tag aspects to increase or decrease a roll?
IE: My character's got a 'broken leg' aspect. Someone attacks the character he tags that aspect to lower my roll by 2. Does that mean the fate point goes to me?
A tag is nothing more than a free invoke, usable once. Once it's been tagged, you may invoke it as normal.
In you example, someone tags your broken leg aspect, and either gets a +2 or a reroll against you. Since it's a tag, no Fate Point was spent, so no FP changes hands. If someone did it to you a second time, that would cost them a FP, which would be given to you!
-EF
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A tag is nothing more than a free invoke, usable once. Once it's been tagged, you may invoke it as normal.
In you example, someone tags your broken leg aspect, and either gets a +2 or a reroll against you. Since it's a tag, no Fate Point was spent, so no FP changes hands. If someone did it to you a second time, that would cost them a FP, which would be given to you!
-EF
Ok, I thought I had a handle on this, but now I'm not so sure. I thought that the target never received a FP from a normal tag/invoke, and that the FP only changed hands during an invoke-for-effect. Reading back through the rules, it looks like the target does receive a FP from a regular invoke. Interesting.
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FAte's pretty good about making you pay for stuff.
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Ok, I thought I had a handle on this, but now I'm not so sure. I thought that the target never received a FP from a normal tag/invoke, and that the FP only changed hands during an invoke-for-effect. Reading back through the rules, it looks like the target does receive a FP from a regular invoke. Interesting.
You never receive a FP for a tag because tags are free. No Fate Point necessary! Invokes, however, cost a FP, and per YS106, any invoke on someone else's aspect gives them the FP.
-EF
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It makes sense now, and answers my question, also going to inform the gang about this, it will eliminate *exchanging a fate point* phenomenon.
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First tag to invoke a newly discovered/created Aspect for +2 to a roll:
free
(+2 to attack something, +2 to dodge an attack)
First tag to invoke a newly discovered/created Aspect for a reroll:
free
First tag to invoke a newly discovered/created Aspect to create a beneficial personal plot effect:
free
First tag to invoke a newly discovered/created Aspect to create a detrimental plot effect on a target that is basically a Compel:
free (for the tagger);
then the GM converts it to a Compel, bankrolls it with a Fate Point, and runs the Compel against the target on his own
(the player gets no FP if the target opts to spend a FP to buy off the Invoke-cum-Compel)
First invoke (on a newly discovered/created Aspect) to create a serious plot advantage:
may cost the player a few Fate Points
In the case of AoE's, most of the Fate Points you spend are going to be for numerical bonuses, and will be going to the GM, not to any of the individual targets. In situations when you are trying to mass-Compel a group of creatures with the same Aspect, the GM should charge a few Fate Points, but not one per target (this is based on conversations with Fred and Lenny, lead DFRPG game developers)
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First tag for +2 to a roll (on a newly discovered/created Aspect):
free
(+2 to attack something, +2 to dodge an attack)
First tag for reroll (on a newly discovered/created Aspect):
free
I agree so far.
First invoke (on a newly discovered/created Aspect) to create a beneficial personal plot effect:
free
Invokes cost a Fate Point. Tags are free. I'm assuming you mean tag here.
First invoke (on a newly discovered/created Aspect) to create a detrimental plot effect on a target that is basically a Compel:
free (for the tagger);
then the GM converts it to a Compel, bankrolls it with a Fate Point, and runs the Compel against the target on his own
(the player gets no FP if the target opts to spend a FP to buy off the Invoke-cum-Compel)
I'm confused. Is it a tag (free), an invoke, or a compel? From my reading of the aspects chapter, compel FPs disappear, while invoke FPs go to the character it is used against.
First invoke (on a newly discovered/created Aspect) to create a serious plot advantage:
may cost the player a few Fate Points
In the case of AoE's, most of the Fate Points you spend are going to be for numerical bonuses, and will be going to the GM, not to any of the individual targets. In situations when you are trying to mass-Compel a group of creatures with the same Aspect, the GM should charge a few Fate Points, but not one per target (this is based on conversations with Fred and Lenny, lead DFRPG game developers)
Again, per my understanding, if someones aspect is invoked, that character (PC or NPC) gets the FP. If it's a compel, the FP disappears, and tags don't cost anything, so no FP changes hands.
-EF
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A "tag" is simply an "invoke" that neither costs fate nor directly gives fate when the use is detrimental. An "invoke for effect" is simply a "compel" initiated by player instead of GM. Some prefer to model that as initiating a compel from the GM. (Have I mentioned how much I detest some of the jargon in my last hundred posts? >:( )
Ignoring the jargon and the line on multiple fate points for a plot advantage, devonapple appears to have everything correct. I'm not sure where the multiple fate point cost came from unless he's obliquely referring to the escalation rules around compels.
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Ignoring the jargon and the line on multiple fate points for a plot advantage, devonapple appears to have everything correct. I'm not sure where the multiple fate point cost came from unless he's obliquely referring to the escalation rules around compels.
I was asking the developers about Compelling the same Aspect on multiple targets, and Lenny mentioned that it didn't have to be 1 fate point per target, but that nothing's free, so a few Fate Points should change hands for such an advantage.
Edit: Have I cleaned up the jargon sufficiently (see above)?
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So, if you are invoking an aspect to cause some detrimental effect to three characters, you'd pay each of them a FP per Lenny? I'm cool with that. But what if it's a Tag? Do you pay nothing, or is one of the characters free? If so, which one?
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So, if you are invoking an aspect to cause some detrimental effect to three characters, you'd pay each of them a FP per Lenny? I'm cool with that. But what if it's a Tag? Do you pay nothing, or is one of the characters free? If so, which one?
You pay the Fate Point to the character who's aspect you're invoking...unless it's your own, than the FP just goes away.
-EF
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@noclue: It's a bit more complex, mostly because who / what the aspect is "attached" to also matters.
If someone uses a personal aspect to increase a zone wide attack (or anything else) the victims don't receive a fate point. If it was an invoke and not a tag, the fate point simply goes into the pot. When you invoke someone's aspect to use against them, they get the fate point. Though you do get one free tag on new assessments, consequences*, and declarations. So the first use of someone's aspect may not get them a fate point.
One more thing, you don't get a fate point if the aspect, even your own, is used to your benefit.
*You do get a fate point from taking the consequence at the end of the scene. Assuming you made it through. I would count a death scene as a separate scene...so a wizard would have those points to use in his death curse. Perhaps that's one reason death curses are so feared...
@devonapple: The jargon isn't your fault! I simply think labeling it "free invoke" and "free compel" would keep things simpler. And avoid some confusion. Calling those "tags" and "invokes for effect" just muddied the waters. For the record, I still think Dresden Files RPG is the best translation of fiction to RPG I've seen. Bar none. I simply dislike jargon. :-[
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@devonapple: The jargon isn't your fault! I simply think labeling it "free invoke" and "free compel" would keep things simpler. And avoid some confusion. Calling those "tags" and "invokes for effect" just muddied the waters. For the record, I still think Dresden Files RPG is the best translation of fiction to RPG I've seen. Bar none. I simply dislike jargon. :-[
+1.
The jargon is a bit confusing, but a necessary evil. It's there so we're all on the same page when discussing the rules. I hope I didn't come off as an ass when correcting your jargon, the internet is difficult to covey feeling and intent.
-EF
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I was asking the developers about Compelling the same Aspect on multiple targets, and Lenny mentioned that it didn't have to be 1 fate point per target, but that nothing's free, so a few Fate Points should change hands for such an advantage.
Really? But according to YS107:
Scene aspects may imply some circumstances that will befall any (or many) of the characters in the scene—Everything Is Burning! is a classic example and a frequent aspect in any scene involving Harry Dresden. In such a case, it’s entirely apropos to act as if that aspect is on each character’s sheet and compel (see page 100) the aspect for each of them, dishing fate points all around and nicely covering the effects the aspect has on the characters in the scene. Technically speaking, a player could try to use a scene aspect to initiate a mass compel, but it’d
be a pretty expensive proposition—he’d have to spend a fate point for every character he wants to be affected by the compel.
Does this count only for compels, then? Or only for Scene Aspect Compels, and not for AOEs?
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Really? But according to YS107:
Does this count only for compels, then? Or only for Scene Aspect Compels, and not for AOEs?
I was referring specifically to Evocation-Based Aspects which get placed on multiple foes, not Scene or Location Aspects. Like someone doing a Disarm spell (Invoke to keep all foes with the "Disarmed" Aspect from attacking while they retrieve their weapons) or using a Maneuver to place the Aspect "Frozen in Place" rather than using a Block against Movement.
So, if you managed to successfully place an Aspect like "Disarmed" on a bunch of foes using a Spray Evocation Maneuver, you could get some effect for free simply by free-tagging to invoke that Aspect or get a bonus against something they do, but if you wanted something more plot-intensive (they all let us get away), that means Fate Points. NOT a Fate Point per Aspect, but certainly more than one.
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I was referring specifically to Evocation-Based Aspects which get placed on multiple foes, not Scene or Location Aspects. Like someone doing a Disarm spell (Invoke to keep all foes with the "Disarmed" Aspect from attacking while they retrieve their weapons) or using a Maneuver to place the Aspect "Frozen in Place" rather than using a Block against Movement.
That would be an interesting description! :)
So, if you managed to successfully place an Aspect like "Disarmed" on a bunch of foes using a Spray Evocation Maneuver, you could get some effect for free simply by free-tagging to invoke that Aspect or get a bonus against something they do, but if you wanted something more plot-intensive (they all let us get away), that means Fate Points. NOT a Fate Point per Aspect, but certainly more than one.
Wouldn't this just use the free tag for the compel (or invoke for effect if you prefer)? And getting away seems to be a concession. I'm probably missing something. :-\
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That would be an interesting description! :)
Wouldn't this just use the free tag for the compel (or invoke for effect if you prefer)? And getting away seems to be a concession. I'm probably missing something. :-\
Well, Lenny was fine with the free tag/invoke being used for a +2, a reroll, or even a minor (one-round) advantage (usually enemy doesn't attack/act), but to end the conflict completely using those free tags would be like trying to get a "free lunch," so some actual Fate Points should change hands, but not, he emphasized, one per Aspect... just enough to make it count. As far as what counts as a concession/victory, that's all relative. Invokes/tags can't themselves *trigger* an automatic Concession, but a sufficient Compel should possibly *motivate* a Concession, it that makes any sense.