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Messages - Mira

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1981
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 23, 2021, 02:57:31 PM »
Harry names them as he banishes them.  And Eb and Harry discuss corner hounds as they fight.

Yeah, but he is also inside their head at that point and sees what they see.  It is more like Eb
instructing Harry what to do as they go along than anything, apparently it did take both of them
to successfully fight them.

1982
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 23, 2021, 01:35:31 PM »
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So I think that Eb's reaction to them is probably important.  He also seemed to know a lot about them hinting he may have dealt with them before.

It could mean that, or it could mean that in his three hundred years of life as a very powerful wizard, Eb would know a lot about them and may have fought them before. 

Butters also could be wrong about who they are, yeah he is a Holy Knight now, but has he been given a full course on the supernatural?  Michael hasn't. 

If it was Harry messing with time, it had to be another Harry, because the one telling the story doesn't seem to be.  If it was Eb, why would he risk that kind of attack upon himself and Harry by time travel?

I think we are making this more complex than need be, go back and read what HWWB tells Harry on the boat just before they get to the island. 

1983
DF Spoilers / Re: Star born and the Antichrist
« on: August 23, 2021, 01:26:14 PM »
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So this isn't just a pseudochristos, but THE Pseudochristos.  The Man of Sin is a rebel and a destroyer, an agent of chaos whose hubris and arrogance sets himself above God.  That's what Harry is telling us he could end up being.  And, given the amount of personal power at his disposal .... not an unrealizable goal.

At this point anyway Harry has enough humility to prevent that from happening.  And as long as Harry realizes it could happen to him, I don't think it will happen. And the more I think of it, the importance of Malcolm in the genetic equation that makes up the star born Harry.  I think when Margaret met him she felt it was possible to conceive of the needed star born without creating an anti-christlike figure.

1984
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?
« on: August 23, 2021, 09:59:21 AM »
Mab told Harry that she and Uriel had a common enemy when Arctis Tor was attacked, and Harry believed it was Thorned Namshiel.  However Harry, who is pretty darn good with fire didn't think he could have done that kind of damage even with Hellfire, in the heart if Winter.  Has it actually been confirmed that Thorned Namshiel was the culprit?

Maybe he couldn't but then Harry isn't a fallen angel, there might be some things he just has no knowledge of.  Harry also constantly talks about older wizards who just through sheer experience and study are way more powerful than he is, well Thorny has thousands of years if not more on him.

1985
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 10:39:42 PM »
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ou think that Nemesis can threaten Justine into helping kill the person that has the best chance of saving Thomas?

Yes,if it threatens to kill her baby..
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Because they can't call up a whole army.  Not on their own.  They can't just strong arm mortals into doing it.  Justine didn't call up the cornerhounds.
Why not? It managed to strong arm Thomas into becoming an assassin which could have led to the down fall of the Accords, which could lead to worse.  And then again, it may not have strong armed her, it may have tricked her, who knows?  You forget how Maeve managed to convince Lily to go along with her by skillful lying.  The Fae are not supposed to lie, but when infected she did very well.  Nemesis can lie, so who knows what that voice was saying in her head.  HWWB is a slimy character, hell yeah he could have talked her into it. 

1986
DF Spoilers / Re: So When Maeve Died, What Happened to.....
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:14:09 PM »
And Harry missed the opportunity to ask that question. He probably would not get a clear answer but he was entirely justified to ask at that moment.

Yup, but he also had more pressing problems at the moment.

1987
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:12:10 PM »
I couldn't find a reference to Alfred being "vulnerable" or an "elemental", but I doubt read, I just used word search, so there may be something similar.

I did see where bits were coming off of Alfred's form, so the attack was doing something. But Mab seemed to imply that he could done more, which I took to mean Alfred could have taken them out. So I'm not sure how vulnerable he actually was to only a frontal assault without the big spell elsewhere.

The full defenses of the island weren't up at that time either, Harry was named Warden, but other than be aware of all the crap that was going on, he didn't know how to run it yet.  What I am saying without his Warden, Alfred is vulnerable along with the island..  At the end of Ghost Story Mab referred to Harry as Alfred's Custodian.  I think it is more complicated than just responsibility for the island, Alfred's welfare is also Harry's responsibility.  Maeve's timing was no accident, if she had delayed and Harry had time to learn his job, I doubt she would have gotten as far as she did.  She wouldn't get that far now, at the end of Battle Ground Harry said that HWWB tried to sneak in as Justine because now it had to be let in, otherwise it couldn't breech the island's defenses.

1988
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 07:00:32 PM »
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Sure, it's a little weird, and with time to think it probably helps Harry put the pieces together on the boat.

The point is, he knew it was off when she said it the first time out.. Just like in his conversation with Cat Sith, he pressed and Nemesis revealed itself.  He didn't press Justine in the apartment because he was already distracted by what Thomas had did,what had happened to him and his fears for Justine.
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But taken over, Justine wasn't the one in control.  No mortal free will there to summon outsiders.  I'm saying she wasn't just Justine at that point, so she couldn't summon outsiders.  (Thomas got it on with Nem!Justine.  It was HWWB in the driver's seat.)
 
Do you not think that it is possible that at that point Nemesis could threaten, Justine, Thomas, and more importantly her baby?  The threat was enough for Thomas to foolishly try to murder and disrupt the Accords.. So is it not logical that that kind of threat would push the mortal Justine to call up the Cornerhounds? Yeah, it was HWWB in the driver's seat, and he pushed Justine to blow the horn.   
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Nah, they aren't sneaky because they want to toy with reality.  They're sneaky because that's their only option to destroy reality.
Thank you for making my argument... You are answering your own question as to why they just don't get someone to call up a whole army. 
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Raith tricked Madge into helping him.  It's not the same thing as possessing her.
No it is not, but the point is, he got a mortal to help him call up an Outsider..  Justine wasn't always the sane little thing we see today let us not forget.. Nemesis occupies her brain, but her mind still exists, no doubt they communicate, who knows what Nemesis is telling her, it could very well have tricked her into seeing Harry as come kind of threat to her and her baby, thus the mortal Justine does what needs to be done with a little umph from Nemesis to call up the Cornerhounds.
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Yep, exactly.  Nemesis can't force mortals to summon outsiders, or the Outer Gates would be barely a speed bump for them.  At best, it can trick them into doing it willingly.
Which it did, I don't think Nemesis can possess someone if they are unwilling either. 

1989
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 05:00:11 PM »
But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?

I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?

Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.

On her own, no, Justine wouldn't do that, but she has been infected for some time now.. Her mind has been affected, and even though she isn't what she was, she is still a mortal, and as a mortal she will do the bidding of the voices she hears in her head..  So while Nemesis might be driving, Justine is still the car, it is her mortal horn that is blowing to call up the Cornerhounds.  Madge wasn't possessed, Justine is, do perhaps in that case no ritual needed.  Heck one might not have been needed in the case of Madge, but it was a way of brainwashing her.  In the case of Lea and Maeve, nothing was called up but Nemesis was able to infect via the Knife. 

1990
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 10:22:23 AM »
One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".

You don't have to be a star born to summon an Outsider, at least I don't think you do.  Was Madge a star born? 
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Nemesis wants to end reality.  After it sent Thomas to kill Etri, it was only a matter of time before Harry figured out Justine was the culprit.  Physically being rid of him for a couple hours was fine at that point.
"Does Lara know?" isn't that far out there (with the caveat that it was a Nemesis screw up in actuality).  It's understandable that Lara would come to mind for Justine as someone she worked with daily and who she knows loves Thomas as well.
Perhaps, but that was the sentence that tips Harry off that something isn't right about Justine. He says it at the apartment when she first says it and later on the boat, it was a tip off.  So while you may think it is understandable, Harry's gut reaction was that there was something not quite right about it.  Perhaps it wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.
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So you're saying that Justine had an episode of insanity and was tricked by Nemesis into summoning outsiders?  Sorry, I don't buy that either.
No, her brain had already been taken over, she wasn't tricked, she'd already contrived to get pregnant by that time and proceed to push Thomas into committing murder.  Are you saying that
she was still sweet normal Justine at that point?  Because she wasn't.
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Outsiders want to end reality.  They don't particularly care how it comes about.  "Not their style" isn't convincing.
Go back and read what He Who Walks Beside says, yes, they want to end reality, but they want to do it slowly from with in..  They are kind of like a cat playing with a mouse, it could end it quickly but it isn't.. It revels in the rot from with in.
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they also kidnapped a bunch of low level practitioners, likely to brainwash them into service (though, perhaps to harvest resources.. or make kraken for some reason)
Yes, and lets not forget that is what Lord Raith did, he managed to recruit and brainwash Madge in order to summon Outsiders.  She was a low level practitioner.

1991
DF Spoilers / Re: So When Maeve Died, What Happened to.....
« on: August 22, 2021, 03:37:50 AM »
Whatever Jim wants but Mab knows.

The Ladies mantle is going to look for someone and the queen’s mantle will do the same or return to Mother Winter to be handled to someone.

Yeah, but there is an old saying, "jumping from the frying pan into the fire..."

1992
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 22, 2021, 03:22:55 AM »
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Justine reacted rationally first, then broke down.  It's a little weird (but I don't think totally abnormal in reality), and it pings in Harry's mind as smart and that he had underestimated her.  Then he leaves to do his investigation around her building.  At that point, Justine has some breathing room; she's rid of Harry for a few hours.  If Justine does nothing (and Eb hadn't shown up), Harry doesn't find anything and goes to talk to Lara instead of getting patched up by Butters then talking to Lara.  Nothing significant changes in the plot if Nemesis doesn't make a move there compared to summoning cornerhounds.  That's my point in that it doesn't fit Nem!Justine's motivations well.
What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation?  Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him.  No, I think Harry's gut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?"  Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap!  That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally puts it together, he had seen though her in the apartment.  Justine asks if Lara knows, not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her!  Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the island, on the boat.
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So if you think Nemesis needs cooperation and motive for a mortal to summon outsiders, and you think Justine summoned the cornerhounds, you're saying that Justine is willingly cooperating with Nemesis against Harry?  I don't buy that at all.
You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up.  In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds.  Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books.  At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why Thomas did what he did?  Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was?  Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind.  1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine.  Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,

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"Something about Justine wasn't. . .quite right, earlier, in the apartment," And I let my voice harden.  "How long ago did you possess the girl?"

The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all.  Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;

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The she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, "I am the doubt that wards away sleep.  I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail.  I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind's eye."

Justine exploited all of Thomas's weaknesses, his love for her that was Justine.  Corrupted him so he'd be driven to murder and hopefully shatter the Accords.  Sent the Cornerhounds to throw Harry off the scent and blinds Lara to what she really is.

One more answer to your question, Harry asks her, "why? to shatter the Accords?"

Nemesis answers;
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"Apocalypse isn't an event," Nemesis murmured.  "It is a frame of mind."
Then it goes on to speak of an unraveling of all things ending in Empty Night..  Interesting
it happens slowly and is done before anyone notices..  Madeline Albright in her book about
how democracies die describes it this way, paraphrasing, " the forces against democracy pluck away
at democracy feather by feather, like one would pluck a chicken, no one notices it or feels it until suddenly all the feathers are gone.." And people find they are living under a totalitarian state.

Nemesis basically tells Harry the same thing, how they will undermine everything, Mab, the Accords, upset the order of the universe, then all they "need is a single opening."

1993
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 10:30:13 PM »
Justine was already rid of Harry for a bit before the cornerhounds came.  My issue was with the idea that Nemesis can force mortals to summon outsiders.  If it could do that, then the Outer Gates are not really much of an obstacle.  In that case, Nemesis needs to grab a few wizards, find a deep hole, and start summoning outsiders by the thousands.  It doesn't need to pop open Demonreach or unbalance the faerie courts.

It isn't random for starters.  I reread the whole section over again, to begin with Harry's "Spidy Star Born" sense perked up when Justine reacted "rationally" not "emotionally" to the news about Thomas.  "Does Lara know?" Not, "Oh my God is Thomas okay?"  Or anything like that.. At that point he had nothing to go on, just that her reaction seemed off.. Then in the next chapter when the Cornerhounds are actually called up, Harry states that only a mortal can call an Outsider up.  So guess who? Justine.  Justine wasn't rid of Harry, he had left her apartment, but she was still very much on his mind, if for no other reason than to protect her, that is why he hired Mr Grey.  Justine knew she'd remain on Harry's mind, no,no, she wasn't rid of him... But she did try to get rid of him via the Cornerhounds.

The answer to your second question is no, Nemesis can't just go around "forcing mortals" to call Outsiders up here, there, and everywhere.... It doesn't work that way, there has to be cooperation and a motive for a mortal to do it..  The mortal might be playing with the occult like Madge was, then Lord Raith tempted her further.  The one that doesn't fit is Maeve, since she wasn't a mortal, but I suppose Cowl and Kumori counts as mortal and presenting Lea with the infected Knife was as good as calling up an Outsider since it was a Nemesis delivery system.  Which should also answer your question about why there was no summons on mass, stealth was needed to pull it off.. Thus Maeve was too far gone before Mab found out and managed to gain the island before it's defenses were fully employed. 

1994
DF Spoilers / Re: Who summoned the Cornerhounds?
« on: August 21, 2021, 08:26:33 PM »
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In PT the cornerhounds served as a way to delay Eb and Harry having their final confrontation, as a way to tease out starborn information, and as a mid-book action scene to ramp up tension.  For the plot though, the cornerhound attack doesn't really fit any character's motivations well.

But it does, Justine has every reason to either distract or be rid of Harry.  Actually it is the reader who is distracted because of the peace talks and the Battle of Chicago, both are the real distractions, while Nemesis makes it's moves.  You said there must be limits to what a mortal can call up at any time otherwise it makes no sense or it is bad story telling.  However I think you are mistaken, if the Enemy is smart, it isn't going to reveal itself willy nilly..

1995
DF Spoilers / Re: Mac's identity
« on: August 21, 2021, 06:42:22 PM »
I don't think Mac has lost his Grace, I think he has chosen not to use it.

Yes, I think there is something to that, I think Mac is unique.  For whatever reason he has opted out and has been granted that privilege, most of the supernatural community seems to understand that fact and don't question his status.  I think if he were condemned something would have stopped him from adding his blood to the Placard to protect those in the bar.

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