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Messages - Mira

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1951
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: February 02, 2022, 03:05:21 PM »


This makes lots of sense.

1952
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: February 02, 2022, 06:08:16 AM »
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The attack on Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty may have been an attempt on Demonreach by Nemesis and the Black Council. Just because you know where something is via the Ways does not map onto its location in the real world, and Demonreach hides its location. A way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach may long have been known and used in the past, but subsequently guarded by Mab. That attempt failed because Fortier was Warden and doubtless the Alfred was set up to guard it in his absence.

The problem with that theory is Arctis Tor is in the Nevernever, while Demonreach is not, I also doubt whoever attacked Arctis Tor would confuse the two.  While the island isn't on the map it can be found if you know where to look.  The Denarians had no problem finding it and taking Ivy and Marcone there. 
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For Christos? He seems only to have been a stalking horse, we have seen nothing to suggest that he was more than an politically ambitious individual fed up with certain aspects of Senior Council politics. He wasn’t Black Council he wouldn’t have been part of the White Council delegation in Peace Talks otherwise. Remember everyone (except Harry) was suggestible at this point. The Black Council gained nothing by elevating Christos, so why murder Fortier? If the murder the Warden and suggest that it was internal politics it throws off the pursuit.
But no one has clue who is on the Black Council, except it is a good bet that Peabody was, but he is dead.  Until he was found out by Harry he played the efficient loyal Council secretary for years.  So
Christos could very well be on the Black Council quietly undermining the White Council.  It has also been suggested that it could be a figment of Harry's imagination.. Not that he is wrong, but it may not be what he thinks.
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The point is It was known in the White Council from Small Favour Harry was interested in the island, enough to panic.

Harry wasn't interested in the island in Small Favor, he went there, true, but only because Nic wanted him to go there with the Sword of Faith to trade for Ivy and Marcone.
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There is a way onto the island Rashid can use it, as he pleases  and Maeve was able to use it once to bring Peabody and the spiders. This suggests that the way comes out deep in Winter, most likely Arctis Tor, and I think we have already seen where, a room where Mab keeps beings prisoner in blocks of crystal ice, where they can reflect upon their misdeeds. Sounds familiar?

There really isn't any evidence for that.. Yes, Rashid used a Way to get to the island.  Peabody did as well along with the spiders, no evidence that it was the same Way that Rashid used. Or if it was Rashid was better at controlling the spiders than Peabody because it was just him waiting for Harry on the dock.  I don't think that Maeve needs to use a Way to get anywhere anymore than Mab does.

1953
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: February 01, 2022, 08:38:31 PM »
The reason Lafortier  was killed was to open up a seat on the Senior Council. That is stated explicitly in the text. Could he have been an absentee Warden? Sure.  But why?  That's almost as bad a not having a Warden at all. To communicate with Alfred Harry has to go to the island.  Did LaFortier have a yacht in the harbor at Chicago? For that matter where did Kemmler park his canoe?


Both could possibly known a Way, Kemmler especially to the island.  However I agree with you on the rest.

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Fortier was on the Senior Council, generally they put the ‘Senior’ In Senior Council.

Still there is a reason why Rashid said they'd have to go back and revisit all decisions made in the last few years because all of their judgements were questionable.  The ink may not have damaged their minds as severely as it did in the case of Luccio, but thinking can be affected and influenced without actually doing physical damage.

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Peabody had wonderful access to the documents of the White Council, his only blind spot was Harry, who didn’t do his paperwork. He likely had access to everything, including the Merlin’s personal intelligence (I believe he was paying Rudy, because everyone competent in Chicago PD had been already bought by Marcone).

That still doesn't mean that he actually knew everything. 

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Ivy is a Member of the Accords, a mediator called upon by the White Council, so yes they would know Harry had been on the island.

Yes, but that was in Small Favor, Harry didn't become Warden till he stumbled upon it in Turn Coat. So even if they knew, it didn't mean anything that they knew...
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Harry blundered into the Wardenship, it was unforseeable that the murder would result in it, but it did happen, then Harry tells the Senior Council to meet him on the island, Peabody had to wait until he wouldn’t be missed and the Senior Council had left, but must have been frantic.
Well, if Peabody already knew that Harry had blundered into Wardenship, it was too late for him to do anything anyway.  Also he would have known that Morgan was going to be the sacrifice lamb in any case, what did him in was the fact that Harry figured out that he was manipulating other wizards with his ink.

1954
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: February 01, 2022, 04:51:57 PM »
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Older wizards were more resistant, Luccio was vulnerable having been swapped into a much younger body. They didn’t have the time to wait another decade or so for the ink to fully work which may have been the original plan.

I don't think it was ever said how if Fortier was considered an older wizard or not.  They should have known about Harry then because it was during Turn Coat that he became Warden.  It was mentioned in Eb's journal in Turn Coat, the Merlin realized the implications and wanted Harry put under surveillance, it was almost two years later that the Outsiders with the help of Maeve tried their invasion of the island.  You'd think that the Merlin instead of putting a watch on Harry, would have explained what he was in for and the importance of the job, or Eb would have when he escorted Harry back to Chicago after he recovered from his wounds.  None of that happened.
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By this time Harry had already visited the island for the first time in Small Favour. The Archive was there, all it took was her mentioning this to the Wardens as casual gossip for this to get into the reports filed by everyone (except Harry) which ended up on Peabody ‘s desk, freaking him out worse than if Harry had filed a report.
That could have happened, but at the same time Ivy wasn't fully engaged as host, still a little girl.  Nothing was written down, we don't even know how much about the island is on paper.  The Archive only knows for sure what is written down.  Even in his journal, Eb merely hints of meaning of what Harry did and it was dangerous, but nothing about the Warden job.  There could be a very good reason for that.
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Harry had already ruined the Darkhallow (where Peabody was referenced, he likely suggested the Erl King as a victim) so rather than wait a decade or more with Harry blundering about in the vicinity Peabody had Fortier killed to free the island Wardenship, only as a consequence for Harry to gain the Wardenship by accident first.

That is presuming that Peabody knew before hand that Morgan would show up as he was pushing Luccio to murder Fortier, then that Morgan would willingly take the blame for the murder to protect Luccio, then run to Harry to figure it all out.  Further then assume that Harry would take Morgan to the island, and further assumed that Harry would do the genis thing for tactical advantage against the Senior Council.  Those are a lot of huge assumptions.. Since Peabody went there himself though one of the more dangerous Ways in secret, speaks to him perhaps trying to gain the Wardenship himself, but he was too late, Harry beat him unwittingly to the punch.

1955
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: February 01, 2022, 07:37:37 AM »


  The only problem I have with your theory is, if Fortier was affected by Peabody's ink like most of the Council, what need was there to kill him?  Peabody could simply have manipulated him like he did Luccio to do the Black Council's bidding as far as the island goes.  Another unanswered question is, do the Warden activated defenses go down upon the death of it's Warden?  I asked that because in Cold Days the island was vulnerable because as we learn in Skin Game some of it's defenses can only be Warden activated, which they weren't in Cold Days..

1956
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 29, 2022, 01:39:58 PM »
Wait until they get three….

Or seven, for some reason my kids were really hard to deal with at that age.

1957
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 29, 2022, 05:44:37 AM »
I'm beginning to hate two year olds.

They can be difficult... ::)

1958
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 28, 2022, 07:50:15 PM »
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I never said Harry was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.  And I've repeated it three times.  Two year olds may throw tantrums, but they also pick up loaded guns and kill themselves or others. Because otherwise rational adults leave guns where two year olds can get at them. I can't make it any clearer then that.
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I never said that you did, if you think that, I am sorry you got that impression, because that wasn't my intent.  I was merely illustrating what two year olds can be like in their worst light, that Harry didn't act like that to get the job that he didn't know he was getting.  If you want to say Harry in charge is like putting a two year old in charge.  Okay, using your analogy, I think it is more like leaving a two year old home alone.  The two year old didn't ask to be left behind, but since it was done, he has to do the best that he can as responsibly as a two year old can.  Can you offer any examples where Harry has acted like a two year old since he became Warden of the island?
So far, Harry hasn't acted like a two year old as far as being Warden of Demonreach, he has acted rather responsibly, like an adult.  The two year old is the intellectus or Alfred, who like most two year olds, doesn't understand when he is in real danger, thus he needs an adult or Warden to supervise.  As Harry says in Skin Game, there are defense systems on the island that only the Warden can implement, in other words, the island needs adult supervision.

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Maybe Kemmler was an effective warden. White council rules ae not necessarily relevant here.

Could be, more to the point I think is the White Council may have no real say in the matter.  Which might be the real answer, as long as whoever passes the island's test for a Warden, he or she gets to be it, end of story.  The island isn't testing character or maturity, it merely tests if the potential Warden is strong enough and smart enough for the job that needs to be done.  Again going back to what Morgan said about an intellectus, because they are immortal there are some dangers they just do not comprehend.  Hence Kemmler certainly passes the test as far as talent and intelligence goes to be Warden, being corrupt and evil is another matter, but the island might not see those last two as a threat to it.

1959
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 28, 2022, 04:23:35 PM »
That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.

The job did save his life

  Yes, and I also got the sense that Alfred bargained with Mab as well, for Harry to keep the job. Rereading the pages of Ghost Story when Harry first wakes up, Harry is her Knight, but apparently Alfred/the island like Uriel has  something to say about the direction of Harry's life.  I don't think on that basis that Mab will be trying to sabotage Harry on that front.
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There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out.  They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.

For starters, Alcatraz is a mortal prison, Alcatraz did have a warden, and yes, the warden did have to meet certain qualifications to be appointed to the job. We don't know what the island wants in it's Warden, but as Morgan said, those with intellectus are immortal,because of that, there are dangers they cannot conceive of.  So while the qualification of strength and talent are implanted on it, corruption, stupidity, and immaturity,might not be something it sees as a problem.
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That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden.  Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem.  To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.

That is a flaw with the island, has nothing to do with Harry.  He didn't even know about the prison, that the island needed a Warden, and once the island selected him, no one on the Senior Council or the Council at large prevented him from getting it.  Mab and Uriel did nothing while Harry was in a coma on the island to prevent him from becoming the island's custodian.  I am not sure Harry can even quit if he wanted to.  In short, Harry wasn't acting like a two year old having a tantrum demanding the Warden job.  The island decided he was up for it, and Harry accepted it like a man and is doing the best that he can.  Whether that is good enough remains to be seen.
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The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.

That is another question for Jim..  However since Harry has been Warden he managed, with help to prevent an Outsider invasion of the island and the bomb going off.. He also managed to jail a Titian who was hell bent on destroying Chicago and beyond.. He managed to figure out that Justine was infected with an Outsider, again saving the island, though that was close.  I'd say so far he has done pretty well.. Now does that mean he won't make mistakes, costly ones,in the future? No, it doesn't, but that can be said of anybody in spite of qualifications or lack there of.

Oh and one last point when trying to compare Harry to a two year old.  In Skin Game he also passed Hades' test to acquire those Artifacts..  Here is what Hades said; page 347 Skin Game

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"To prevent anyone without skill or commitment to use them well from having them," he said. "It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind---only from the incompetents."

Apparently that goes for becoming Warden of the island as well, Harry was competent enough to call it up and show his strength and commitment, and that is all that it required.

1960
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 28, 2022, 12:58:43 PM »
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Harry is the two year old in the analogy. The question was why make him Warden? You may be able accept that a prison guard at the most dangerous prison in the Universe took on Harry as the Warden without references.  I'm having some trouble swallowing it. Seems

I guess that is a question for Jim isn't it?  For starters while one can question Harry's judgement in doing the genus loki in the first place.  I apologize for the spelling of that, haven't time to look it up this morning. Harry didn't ask for the job, he didn't kick and scream to get it, he didn't even know the job existed.  I guess it is also a question for the island, why did it make Harry it's Warden? But here are a couple of points about that

1] If the Council had it's act together in the first place and the island had a proper Warden, Harry wouldn't have been able to do the thing he did to unwittingly become one. 
2] The only thing the island requires apparently is someone with enough talent and strength to do it.  This actually might be the way Kemmler became Warden in the first place.  He wasn't appointed, but he knew of the island and what to do to become it's Warden..
3] Though the island has intellectus, it still needs a parent/Warden, because like all two year olds, the island has no judgement as far as knowing when it is in real danger.

One final thought about this is, someone on the Council must know all of this, yet they seem to think it a secret it won't happen..  Oh goodness, who is acting like a two year old now?  So the island is left vulnerable, to attack, to the wrong person or entity becoming it's Warden, and lastly and more importantly, without a Warden, it has no way to jail those who really needs locking up..

So again, I ask you, who is the two year old?   

1961
DF Spoilers / Re: Really Stupid Foreshadowing
« on: January 28, 2022, 12:37:33 PM »
Don’t be silly, tinfoil is for hats.....

That is another use for it, but though ugly, it is very effective in helping the keep your house cool.  I live in a house built in the early fifties with one of those huge picture windows that faces the south.
Though I do put black out curtains on it for the summer, covering it with tin foil is more effective for
reflecting the heat outside.  At end of summer when you take it down you have plenty of foil for hats and roasting a turkey... ::)

1962
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 27, 2022, 06:48:09 PM »
@Mira
Yuillegan nailed it precisely. Making Harry Warden without Harry knowing what it implies borders on insanity. It would be like handing a toddler a loaded gun with no safety. If Butcher expects me to buy into that he needs to bring something to the table to explain why you would allow that.

On Mab and the danger the island represents to her.  Given the control that Mab has over Harry as her Knight she could walk him off the pier and make him drown himself. She could alter his memory and make him forget where the island is. Harry would only be a danger to her if she were stupid.

Consider though, Harry didn't make himself Warden, Alfred did.. So who exactly is using the judgement of a two year old?  The guy who punched him in the nose not knowing what he was doing?  Or the guy who made him his Warden because he was able to do it? 

Mab might be able to do those things if Harry was off the island, but not while he is on it.  As he says, when she collected him she stayed on the dock until he gave her his permission to step on to the island.  Remember the last bit of Cold Days, and this was before Harry knew of the extent of his power, when Mab threatened him?  He called Alfred forward and told him to grab Mab is she did anything of that kind, she turned pale..  Also lets not forget she also asked Harry's permission to bury Maeve and Ivy on the island.. Unless it was totally to her advantage to leave the island Wardenless, she isn't going to mess with Harry in the way you suggest.

1963
DF Spoilers / Re: Really Stupid Foreshadowing
« on: January 27, 2022, 06:39:03 PM »
Sometimes they are drapes.

  Could also be tin foil..... :P  It gets hot here in Arkansas and using it to cover windows really helps. ::)

1964
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: January 27, 2022, 05:10:24 PM »
Mea culpa on calling Alfred the Warden.

Well, we all make mistakes. ::)
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That would presume they can reach a consensus. The entire point is they don't agree on who a good candidate is. I imagine some think that no one is a good candidate. The entire point of the White Council is to limit power. The position of Warden gives too much power to an individual.

Doesn't the fact that they allow one of their members to hold the Blackstaff and be the Council's assassin contradict that?  Basically they are trusting Eb's character to limit the real damage he can do with that staff.  In Battleground Eb has shown himself to be a bit shaky emotionally, there is no guarantee that he won't go rouge.  The Merlin himself has shown some inclination towards abuse of power for political reasons.   
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True enough. But my rebuttal was to your argument that private journals don't have general statements, and as the entire series is full of general statements I think we can make a reasonable assumption that private journals do have general statements in them. Not to mention that the specific bit Harry reads was intended by Ebenezar for Harry to read. So while it might not be for public access, the section we are discussing was meant for more than just Eb to read (in point of fact it was intended for someone else specifically who is discussed in the passage).

The fact that Eb meant for Harry to read it, or that is Harry's assumption he was meant to read it, since the book just happened to be open, doesn't make what Eb wrote a general statement. 
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The specific bit you quote here ("I sometimes can't help but think there is such a thing as fate") is Eb's opinion specifically on how he feels the Council is getting in it's own way. He quite literally says right after the "I" statement "We, in our ignorance, do to thwart it". So it's Ebenezar's ("I") opinion about how the White Council ("we") are subverting themselves.
Both can be true at the same time.  Eb is giving a personal opinion that the Council is getting in it's own way by it's ignorance, and as a member of the Council, he includes himself.  We see it everyday in Congress, a member can say in his or her personal opinion that a proposal is right or wrong, but at the same time not excluding himself or herself from the general proposal put forth.
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Exactly right, it is different. Hence why Jim says that the Senior Council's only thought is that Harry must have been really stupid because they don't think he knew what he was doing when he signed up. Which is exactly why they didn't execute him straight away (that, and the fact they really need a weapons stash right now). Except all bets are off since Battle Ground because he clearly knows how to defend his Island far better now AND has shown he can take on major heavy weight hitters. All he needs to show now is that he can compel those beings into giving him power and/or knowledge, and even perhaps potentially commanding them as his personal weapons and he will completely terrify the White Council. It's the equivalent of showing he can build, defend, and deploy nukes.

As I said in another post, rereading what Rashid told him in Turn Coat, I don't think it is about commanding any of the inmates to do his bidding, it is about tapping the power from the Leylines that emirate from the island and it's inmates.  The scary bit is Rashid left that open, he said that Harry wasn't ready yet to attempt such a thing.
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I think you've misunderstood Morris's point. The two-year old Morris is referring to is Harry, not Alfred. Hence why he points out Rashid choking. So did Eb when he found out (although there are clearly other reasons he thought Harry was crazy i.e. who would want to bring that much stress on themselves?) Morris is incorrect in saying that Alfred was made Warden by the original Merlin. Alfred isn't the Warden. He is the interface, the guards, the monitoring systems, the punishment provider etc. He literally says so himself, and we've seen some of his limits. He doesn't have free will as he isn't mortal. He cannot choose to imprison or release a being. He can only act in accordance with the will of the Warden. That said, he clearly has some scope in how to operate within his limits...and so it probably a very good case study of certain types of immortals. I might have said angels but they seem to be a special case, same with gods.

Morriswalter has to be the one to clear that up.  Yes, one could argue that Harry is like a two year as you say.  However if you read what Morgan says about beings of intellectus, you will understand better why the island needs a Warden.  First of all Alfred is the island, so you can say the island has it... Here are a few things Morgan says about beings with intellectus; Turn Coat page 278

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Morgan spoke.  "A being with intellectus does not understand, for example, how to derive a complex calculus equation--because it doesn't need to process.  If you showed him a problem and an equation, he would simply understand it and skip straight to the answer without need to think through the logical stages of solving the problem."
Alfred knows the island needs a Warden, skips to the end when Harry comes along and does the genius loci, makes him Warden.  Alfred isn't thinking through whether or not Harry would be a good one or a bad one.. Problem, island needs a Warden, skip to the end, Harry.

Molly asks Morgan if being an intellectus is omniscient?  Morgans tells her they are not the same thing.  An intellectus has to focus in order the know something. Omniscient knows everything at all times.  Then on page 279 he gets to the crux of why the island needs a Warden and why the island to use Morriswalters example is like a two year old being in charge without one.
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"Intellectuswouldn't save you from an assassin's bullet if you didn't know someone wanted to kill you in the first place," I said.  "To know it is coming, you'd first need to consider the question of whether or not an assassin might be lurking in a dark doorway or on top of a bell tower.

In other words the island without a proper Warden cannot properly defend itself because it cannot imagine what to look for to prevent it.

Morgan nods in agreement and adds a metaphor of his own.  Again page 279
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Morgan grunted agreement. "And since beings of intellectus so rarely understand broader ideas of cause and effect, they can be unlikely to realize that a given event might be an indicator of an upcoming assassination attempt."  "Though that's a terrible metaphor, Dresden.

Now comes the part that really fits the example that Alfred/the island is really like a two year old;
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Most beings like that are immortal.  They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."

Because he is immortal he has a hard time understanding that the island is being threatened.  Like a two year old doesn't understand that a hot stove will burn, he needs an adult to explain it.
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Is that the case with Demonreach though? It knew the Outsiders were attacking it from the water in Cold Days. It also knew that it was being attacked through time as well. It's only "confusion" was in the case of the faeries which Dresden hypothesized as it being connected through nature to them...but Mab seems to indicate that Alfred had the option of defeating them and held back as a curtesy to Mab. Harry didn't tell Demonreach it was being attacked at all in Cold Days, if anything it was the reverse. Alfred is similar to current AI programs in that it's really just a bunch of predetermined responses to certain stimuli, and while capable of "learning" that doesn't mean it makes choices in the way most people seem them. There is a simplicity to it. Another way to look at it might be like asking the AI to capture specific computer viruses in a "vault". It can do as you ask, but it's up to the user (and initially the programmer) to decide what the AI recognizes as a virus in the first place.

Yes, it does apply to the island... Going back to the assassin metaphor... As Morgan says;
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Most beings like that are immortal.  They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."

In other words, without a Warden, the island might know it's about to be attacked, but would have a hard time imagining how it would be attacked or that it is vulnerable to being attacked.

And yes, with a fully engaged Warden after Harry's been there a year, he says in Skin Game. Page 6

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I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden.  If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed.  Even Mab as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach soil. Which is why she was standing on the dock

Mab could prevent communication going to and from Harry, she could prevent him leaving or going, but without his leave, she could not step on the island now that he was fully installed as it's Warden.

1965
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Lasciel really a fallen angel?
« on: January 26, 2022, 10:45:40 PM »
It's not about who can throw hellfire, it's about who could throw hellfire at Arctis Tor.  Thorned Namshiel was granted the power to run the spell at the Shedd, thus he we know he had the power to do it, much in the same way Lily gave Harry the power to throw Summer fire at the Scarecrow and the Wellspring.

The point is, if the number of Denarians who are Hellfire capable are limited, that narrows down considerably who threw Hellfire at Arctis Tor.  Example, it only three Denarians have the power to throw Hellfire, and only Denarians or wizards possessed by the Shadow of a Denarian, and up to that time there was only one, [Harry] then it has to be one of the four.. Process of elimination. I think it is a little different from Summer Fire.. But again only a limited number of suspects.

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