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DF Spoilers / Re: Harry should have trusted Ramirez
« on: February 02, 2022, 03:05:21 PM »This makes lots of sense.
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The attack on Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty may have been an attempt on Demonreach by Nemesis and the Black Council. Just because you know where something is via the Ways does not map onto its location in the real world, and Demonreach hides its location. A way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach may long have been known and used in the past, but subsequently guarded by Mab. That attempt failed because Fortier was Warden and doubtless the Alfred was set up to guard it in his absence.
For Christos? He seems only to have been a stalking horse, we have seen nothing to suggest that he was more than an politically ambitious individual fed up with certain aspects of Senior Council politics. He wasn’t Black Council he wouldn’t have been part of the White Council delegation in Peace Talks otherwise. Remember everyone (except Harry) was suggestible at this point. The Black Council gained nothing by elevating Christos, so why murder Fortier? If the murder the Warden and suggest that it was internal politics it throws off the pursuit.But no one has clue who is on the Black Council, except it is a good bet that Peabody was, but he is dead. Until he was found out by Harry he played the efficient loyal Council secretary for years. So
The point is It was known in the White Council from Small Favour Harry was interested in the island, enough to panic.
There is a way onto the island Rashid can use it, as he pleases and Maeve was able to use it once to bring Peabody and the spiders. This suggests that the way comes out deep in Winter, most likely Arctis Tor, and I think we have already seen where, a room where Mab keeps beings prisoner in blocks of crystal ice, where they can reflect upon their misdeeds. Sounds familiar?
The reason Lafortier was killed was to open up a seat on the Senior Council. That is stated explicitly in the text. Could he have been an absentee Warden? Sure. But why? That's almost as bad a not having a Warden at all. To communicate with Alfred Harry has to go to the island. Did LaFortier have a yacht in the harbor at Chicago? For that matter where did Kemmler park his canoe?
Fortier was on the Senior Council, generally they put the ‘Senior’ In Senior Council.
Peabody had wonderful access to the documents of the White Council, his only blind spot was Harry, who didn’t do his paperwork. He likely had access to everything, including the Merlin’s personal intelligence (I believe he was paying Rudy, because everyone competent in Chicago PD had been already bought by Marcone).
Ivy is a Member of the Accords, a mediator called upon by the White Council, so yes they would know Harry had been on the island.
Harry blundered into the Wardenship, it was unforseeable that the murder would result in it, but it did happen, then Harry tells the Senior Council to meet him on the island, Peabody had to wait until he wouldn’t be missed and the Senior Council had left, but must have been frantic.Well, if Peabody already knew that Harry had blundered into Wardenship, it was too late for him to do anything anyway. Also he would have known that Morgan was going to be the sacrifice lamb in any case, what did him in was the fact that Harry figured out that he was manipulating other wizards with his ink.
Older wizards were more resistant, Luccio was vulnerable having been swapped into a much younger body. They didn’t have the time to wait another decade or so for the ink to fully work which may have been the original plan.
By this time Harry had already visited the island for the first time in Small Favour. The Archive was there, all it took was her mentioning this to the Wardens as casual gossip for this to get into the reports filed by everyone (except Harry) which ended up on Peabody ‘s desk, freaking him out worse than if Harry had filed a report.That could have happened, but at the same time Ivy wasn't fully engaged as host, still a little girl. Nothing was written down, we don't even know how much about the island is on paper. The Archive only knows for sure what is written down. Even in his journal, Eb merely hints of meaning of what Harry did and it was dangerous, but nothing about the Warden job. There could be a very good reason for that.
Harry had already ruined the Darkhallow (where Peabody was referenced, he likely suggested the Erl King as a victim) so rather than wait a decade or more with Harry blundering about in the vicinity Peabody had Fortier killed to free the island Wardenship, only as a consequence for Harry to gain the Wardenship by accident first.
Wait until they get three….
I'm beginning to hate two year olds.
I never said Harry was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. And I've repeated it three times. Two year olds may throw tantrums, but they also pick up loaded guns and kill themselves or others. Because otherwise rational adults leave guns where two year olds can get at them. I can't make it any clearer then that.I never said that you did, if you think that, I am sorry you got that impression, because that wasn't my intent. I was merely illustrating what two year olds can be like in their worst light, that Harry didn't act like that to get the job that he didn't know he was getting. If you want to say Harry in charge is like putting a two year old in charge. Okay, using your analogy, I think it is more like leaving a two year old home alone. The two year old didn't ask to be left behind, but since it was done, he has to do the best that he can as responsibly as a two year old can. Can you offer any examples where Harry has acted like a two year old since he became Warden of the island?
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Maybe Kemmler was an effective warden. White council rules ae not necessarily relevant here.
That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.
The job did save his life
There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out. They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.
That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden. Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem. To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.
The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.
"To prevent anyone without skill or commitment to use them well from having them," he said. "It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind---only from the incompetents."
Harry is the two year old in the analogy. The question was why make him Warden? You may be able accept that a prison guard at the most dangerous prison in the Universe took on Harry as the Warden without references. I'm having some trouble swallowing it. Seems
Don’t be silly, tinfoil is for hats.....
@Mira
Yuillegan nailed it precisely. Making Harry Warden without Harry knowing what it implies borders on insanity. It would be like handing a toddler a loaded gun with no safety. If Butcher expects me to buy into that he needs to bring something to the table to explain why you would allow that.
On Mab and the danger the island represents to her. Given the control that Mab has over Harry as her Knight she could walk him off the pier and make him drown himself. She could alter his memory and make him forget where the island is. Harry would only be a danger to her if she were stupid.
Sometimes they are drapes.
Mea culpa on calling Alfred the Warden.
That would presume they can reach a consensus. The entire point is they don't agree on who a good candidate is. I imagine some think that no one is a good candidate. The entire point of the White Council is to limit power. The position of Warden gives too much power to an individual.
True enough. But my rebuttal was to your argument that private journals don't have general statements, and as the entire series is full of general statements I think we can make a reasonable assumption that private journals do have general statements in them. Not to mention that the specific bit Harry reads was intended by Ebenezar for Harry to read. So while it might not be for public access, the section we are discussing was meant for more than just Eb to read (in point of fact it was intended for someone else specifically who is discussed in the passage).
The specific bit you quote here ("I sometimes can't help but think there is such a thing as fate") is Eb's opinion specifically on how he feels the Council is getting in it's own way. He quite literally says right after the "I" statement "We, in our ignorance, do to thwart it". So it's Ebenezar's ("I") opinion about how the White Council ("we") are subverting themselves.Both can be true at the same time. Eb is giving a personal opinion that the Council is getting in it's own way by it's ignorance, and as a member of the Council, he includes himself. We see it everyday in Congress, a member can say in his or her personal opinion that a proposal is right or wrong, but at the same time not excluding himself or herself from the general proposal put forth.
Exactly right, it is different. Hence why Jim says that the Senior Council's only thought is that Harry must have been really stupid because they don't think he knew what he was doing when he signed up. Which is exactly why they didn't execute him straight away (that, and the fact they really need a weapons stash right now). Except all bets are off since Battle Ground because he clearly knows how to defend his Island far better now AND has shown he can take on major heavy weight hitters. All he needs to show now is that he can compel those beings into giving him power and/or knowledge, and even perhaps potentially commanding them as his personal weapons and he will completely terrify the White Council. It's the equivalent of showing he can build, defend, and deploy nukes.
I think you've misunderstood Morris's point. The two-year old Morris is referring to is Harry, not Alfred. Hence why he points out Rashid choking. So did Eb when he found out (although there are clearly other reasons he thought Harry was crazy i.e. who would want to bring that much stress on themselves?) Morris is incorrect in saying that Alfred was made Warden by the original Merlin. Alfred isn't the Warden. He is the interface, the guards, the monitoring systems, the punishment provider etc. He literally says so himself, and we've seen some of his limits. He doesn't have free will as he isn't mortal. He cannot choose to imprison or release a being. He can only act in accordance with the will of the Warden. That said, he clearly has some scope in how to operate within his limits...and so it probably a very good case study of certain types of immortals. I might have said angels but they seem to be a special case, same with gods.
Morgan spoke. "A being with intellectus does not understand, for example, how to derive a complex calculus equation--because it doesn't need to process. If you showed him a problem and an equation, he would simply understand it and skip straight to the answer without need to think through the logical stages of solving the problem."Alfred knows the island needs a Warden, skips to the end when Harry comes along and does the genius loci, makes him Warden. Alfred isn't thinking through whether or not Harry would be a good one or a bad one.. Problem, island needs a Warden, skip to the end, Harry.
"Intellectuswouldn't save you from an assassin's bullet if you didn't know someone wanted to kill you in the first place," I said. "To know it is coming, you'd first need to consider the question of whether or not an assassin might be lurking in a dark doorway or on top of a bell tower.
Morgan grunted agreement. "And since beings of intellectus so rarely understand broader ideas of cause and effect, they can be unlikely to realize that a given event might be an indicator of an upcoming assassination attempt." "Though that's a terrible metaphor, Dresden.
Most beings like that are immortal. They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."
Is that the case with Demonreach though? It knew the Outsiders were attacking it from the water in Cold Days. It also knew that it was being attacked through time as well. It's only "confusion" was in the case of the faeries which Dresden hypothesized as it being connected through nature to them...but Mab seems to indicate that Alfred had the option of defeating them and held back as a curtesy to Mab. Harry didn't tell Demonreach it was being attacked at all in Cold Days, if anything it was the reverse. Alfred is similar to current AI programs in that it's really just a bunch of predetermined responses to certain stimuli, and while capable of "learning" that doesn't mean it makes choices in the way most people seem them. There is a simplicity to it. Another way to look at it might be like asking the AI to capture specific computer viruses in a "vault". It can do as you ask, but it's up to the user (and initially the programmer) to decide what the AI recognizes as a virus in the first place.
Most beings like that are immortal. They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."
I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden. If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed. Even Mab as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach soil. Which is why she was standing on the dock
It's not about who can throw hellfire, it's about who could throw hellfire at Arctis Tor. Thorned Namshiel was granted the power to run the spell at the Shedd, thus he we know he had the power to do it, much in the same way Lily gave Harry the power to throw Summer fire at the Scarecrow and the Wellspring.