I like the theory that Mab had wiped the memory of LC well before hand. It makes sense. Yet, as good as Mab is at playing chess, could she really be sure that Harry would go to Demonreach as a result of her meddling? And what if Shagnasty had killed Thomas...how would that have affected her plans, especially if Harry figures out what she did and held her responsible?
I can see her doing it, yet there is something about it that bothers me. Maybe it's that she would have had predicted that Shagnasty would show up and abduct Thomas. How could she have known that? How could she have known that Harry would have an urgent need to use LC and that keeping him from doing so would lead him to Demonreach?
She couldn't,Are we absolutely sure about that? We have zero information about who/what it was that put Shagnasty on to Morgan in the first place. If Mab directed its attention at the fleeing Warden, knowing he was headed for Harry, so it would follow him (possibly even made a deal with it to do so?) that would go a long, long way towards much of the events in that book occurring in just the way she would want them to.
What's to say that Mab didn't nudge shagnasty after Morgan? Its a variable outcome to know if Thomas would be kidnapped, but just brining shaggy into play increases the odds, especially when Mab knows about Thomas and that is a hot button when it comes to Harry.
The Headaches of SuppressionI don't think Harry intended to fight Shagnasty man to man, that is why he lured the Raiths and Wizards, and brought the Zalord's army, and werewolves. It is a link to why he did his ritual, but Harry mainly did it to lure out the traitors.(click to show/hide)
But with his brother missing and being tortured by one of the most evil beings Harry's ever laid his Sight on, he settles for tracking spells using the copper circle? And completely neglects to mention LC in text, or even explain why it isn't used?
That doesn't make any sense.
I don't think Harry intended to fight Shagnasty man to man, that is why he lured the Raiths and Wizards, and brought the Zalord's army, and werewolves. It is a link to why he did his ritual, but Harry mainly did it to lure out the traitors.The SoI is certainly a possibility. I'm not sure how cognizant it was at that point, and we can't know for sure until we're told. But I could see it trying to manipulate Harry to preserve itself, but it would have to have a purpose. It seems odd to just want to prevent Harry from using Mouse to find Thomas.
You may be on to something about mind manipulation, but it makes more sense to me that it was the unborn SOI doing it, not Mab. The SOI had all the knowledge of Lash (and Harry), and likely knew that Harry would fare poorly in a one on one fight with Shagnasty. She may have feared for her own life.
Does LC have Demonreach installed on it?I don't imagine so. He had to put all the pieces together for LC prior to PROVEN GUILTY, and there was no mention of him updating it to include the island after SMALL FAVOR. And since he always seemed to have some level of omniscience on the island, I doubt he'd feel a need.
Well, I think a better way of saying that is "Why would you believe that Shagnasty had Thomas in Chicago?" Little Chicago only matters if he is. If he is not, the best you might know is what path was taken. I also thought the use of LC was essentially a tracking spell in any case. So, maybe Harry figures if he gets nothing from tracking spells at all why spend all the energy to use LC.It's possible, but the point is, all the other tracking spells failed. I can't see Harry not trying LC when everything failed, just in case. That's like saying, "No, we're not going to ping his phone to locate him, the Shagnasty surely ditched that." But it doesn't hurt to try if everything else fails.
I have to wonder if Harry did use LC would he have gotten psychic backlash from Shagnasty. Cowl's banishing of Harry on WN melted some of LC remember.Hard to say, since the melting was because of a lot of energy dumped into the system by Cowl, and Shagnasty doesn't seem much for the evocation like that.
I have to wonder if Harry did use LC would he have gotten psychic backlash from Shagnasty. Cowl's banishing of Harry on WN melted some of LC remember.Yeah, I think it would take a focused attack on Harry's astral self to cause that damage again. Shagnasty might be able to do that, but I'm not sure that Harry would even need to go astral. he could probably just do a location spell like he did for Molly in Proven Guilty.
My own prejudices are against Mab being behind it because I don't like Mab being behind everything, and "The same words were used to describe this" ignores the very real issue that it's secretly the same person writing everything in the series, so he's going to use the same phrasing more than once. Like the "Ice pick headache" thing.
That said, didn't Harry need a chunk of the car to track down people using LC before? And he lacked that thaumaturgical connection with Thomas, yes?
He had his own blood, and he had the twin of Thomas's amulet.Has he used either of those to track down Thomas? He used Elaine's amulet as I recall, but not Thomas's. And likewise, I don't recall him tracking down Thomas via blood, and siblings aren't necessarily going to work the same as mother/daughter.
Has he used either of those to track down Thomas?
Yes, he used his amulet to find Thomas in White Night after Elaine showed Harry the picture of Thomas walking away with Olivia. Harry even comments that Elaine didn't ask how he was using his amulet to find Thomas.Ah, ok. For some reason I thought he used the amulet to find Elaine earlier, and got confused.
Ah, ok. For some reason I thought he used the amulet to find Elaine earlier, and got confused.
Of course, that also means that Harry didn't need LC to find Thomas via the Amulet in the first place.
But without the amulet or some sort of connection, Harry couldn't use LC. He'd otherwise basically have to slightly more quickly search everywhere manually.
As I said, Harry did need LC in TC.
We've seen Harry use locator spells before. and it requires triangulation. he ends up running around rechecking his results. but little Chicago tells your where someone or something is exactly. that's how they located Pell's theater as the nearest point to Molly's location. he didn't project himself astrally to do that.
my issue with him not using little Chicago is that it's obviously the most efficient tool to find him if Thomas is being held in Chicago. not using it at all, or even mentioning considering it or specifying why he's not, is extremely odd.
I get that using little Chicago takes effort. but was finding Thomas not worth the effort when other things failed? when he started growing desperate from lack of options?
I agree with the Triangulation, but I think the thing I am thinking through is that I don't know if LC makes the Locator Spells more powerful...reaching further/overcoming more issues. I thought that once he found that he could not make any Locator Spell work that it made LC not valuable to the operation. It takes a long time to use LC and has lots of other issues as well. If he could get a Locator Spell up, then I would have expected him to use LC. But given his inability to get one going - and he tried several different ways, that it meant he could not use Locator Spells in any way to locate Thomas. As I recall the other LC uses, he connected first with a standard locator and then used LC as an way of adding value to the tracking not a way to start the tracking.In Proven Guilty he sits down to use Little Chicago to find Molly while running out of time, and did so without much preparation time or precursor location spells.
I disagree with that entirely. He went and got Charity'sblood and started a tracking spell. Then he used LC to move around. Without the tracking spell, LC would not have worked.
Then I pinked my fingertip with my ritual knife, touched the lock of baby hair to it, and laid it down within Little Chicago. I used a second drop of blood and an effort of will to touch the circle on the tabletop, closing it up and beginning the spell. I closed my eyes, focusing, murmuring a stream of faux Latin as I reached out to the model and brought it to life.
Are we absolutely sure about that? We have zero information about who/what it was that put Shagnasty on to Morgan in the first place.
Failed trying a tracking spell at which point LC is useless....which is my entire point. If you can't bring up a tracking spell, there is no point in using LC. Harry already knows this at the time of TC. So, the moment he can't track Thomas...LC becomes moot.So to clarify, we have textual evidence that he has started using Little Chicago for tracking spells rather than his old method, but you think he reverted to the old method in this instance.
Griffyn,If that's enough for you, that's fine.
I was saying that LC does not make a tracking spell work if it won't without LC. What LC a does is allow more information to be gathered more easily from a tracking spell that would work. So Harry can find out if a tracking spell would work without LC. Since Harry could not track Thomas there seems to be no value in using LC in TC. That is a reasonable explanation for why Harry does not use LC in the novel.
Random WAG: If LC does include Demonreach, then maybe we have a new candidate for who fixed LC. ;DI can't wait for DR to explain it. And then Bob or SoI will have to dumb it down.
What's to say that Mab didn't nudge shagnasty after Morgan? Its a variable outcome to know if Thomas would be kidnapped, but just brining shaggy into play increases the odds, especially when Mab knows about Thomas and that is a hot button when it comes to Harry.WoJ says that the one who sent Shagnasty had been mentioned but not seen as of Turn Coat.
Will we run into whoever hired the skinwalker?
They have been mentioned, but they’ve not yet been onscreen.
... Could Little Chicago, and Harry's lab, still be in the basement of the BFS building?
And does Marcone have someone on staff to use it?
I may be misremembering, but doesn't the WoJ suggest that Little Chicago would be destroyed if it were still there? While leaving open the possibility that it was moved?
#330 “Jim–someone else asked this as well, but I couldn’t see an answer: Little Chicago wasn’t mentioned in Turn Coat, and was barely mentioned in Changes… was it destroyed in the fire? Did the FBI notice it? It’s it gone for good?”
It was made of (mostly) pewter. The rest was plastic. Harry hadn’t taken steps to make it less destructible (which would have interfered with its function anyway–it was built to be sensitive, not tough). There was just no way it could have survived the fire. And no, the FBI didn’t confiscate it.
Changes is, in many ways, about loss. About encountering it and feeling its pain. That happens to all of us, sooner or later. There’s no avoiding it.
The real question is, how do you pick up the pieces and keep going, afterward.
That's the one I'm thinking of. Nothing he says outright says it was destroyed, just that it could not have survived the fire. The thing about loss may or may not be related, if you want to be pedantic.
I think we have precedent that if a Fae were the one who pulled it from the lab, they would be metaphysically obligated to return his "property" and they haven'tyet.
You're ignoring the fact that after creating little Chicago, he doesn't do a tracking spell first to then do it again with little Chicago. he just does it with little Chicago.
Other options (in decreasing order of plausiblity):Well, we see that the fae can just waltz through a threshold if they are there to help the resident. So no need for a weak threshold. And, as Harry hasn't asked for it back, they have no real issue with not giving it back to him. Lea didn't give Harry his gift from his Mom until he specifically asked about it.
1) The threshold around Harry apartment was so weakend (by the FBI and possibly also once the fire started), that it didn't take much for even a faerie to grab LC.
2) A Faerie (e.g. Cat Sith) grabbed LC but was then Nemfected, and that somehow gets around said faerie's need to return it (far-fecthed, but possible).
3) TT Harry grabbed it. ;)
4) LC gained sentinence (through it's inclusion of Demonreach?) and saved itself.
5) Mister saved it.
Well, we see that the fae can just waltz through a threshold if they are there to help the resident. So no need for a weak threshold. And, as Harry hasn't asked for it back, they have no real issue with not giving it back to him. Lea didn't give Harry his gift from his Mom until he specifically asked about it.
Griffyn,We don't know why she would not want him to use it. Maybe it was to force him to use Demonreach. Maybe she was worried about the backlash if it succeeded and Shagnasty tried eating his astral form. Maybe it was something else altogether.
Not ignoring it. If you agree with me that LC only enhances working tracking spells, your theory means that Mab would have to make Harry forget something that she knew would not work. Which makes no sense to me.
I just think notion that Mab knows everything that is going to happen in advance at all times seems like a stretch. I think she is really good at plotting and judging outcomes especially when it is a plan she has set in motion (SG). I think she has lots of plans and backup plans. But to think she:Yeah, the "Mab knows everything" thing is obnoxious. I think it has to be a more direct reason that we're just not seeing, if she did in fact do it. When she took his memory of fire magic before, it was to protect him from being tracked by it. there's got to be something just as simple. I just can't think of what it could be.
- Knew Shagnasty would be coming after Harry
- And then kidnap Thomas
Given that we don't know why Shagnasty showed up (remember it is assumed that he followed Morgan and it could be further presumed from that he is sent by somebody aligned with Nemesis/Outsiders to make sure that Morgan is found), it would mean that Mab forsaw all the events in Edinburgh or was able to react to Morgan's run in a very insightful way.
We don't know why she would not want him to use it. Maybe it was to force him to use Demonreach. Maybe she was worried about the backlash if it succeeded and Shagnasty tried eating his astral form. Maybe it was something else altogether.
All we know is that the circumstances are similar to those when she'd taken his memories previously, and there's no obvious reason for Harry not to use it.
Yeah, the "Mab knows everything" thing is obnoxious. I think it has to be a more direct reason that we're just not seeing, if she did in fact do it. When she took his memory of fire magic before, it was to protect him from being tracked by it. there's got to be something just as simple. I just can't think of what it could be.
Harry uses LC to find Thomas
But we already know that this is not true.
Remember the other "surpression" (the headache with Mouse). Harry seems to think that Mouse would have been able to find Thomas.
We know from Proven Guilty that using LC does NOT make a tracking spell work. It simply makes a workable tracking spell more useful (remember Harry needed more than Baby Hair?). And there is no proof that a headache makes a suppression by Mab or that it made him forget Mouse. So, my assertion is that making Harry not use LC was like a null...it made him use something that would not work.
Remember the other "suppression" (the headache with Mouse). Harry seems to think that Mouse would have been able to find Thomas.That only works if the headache was actually distracting him from thoughts of using LC, which I don't necessarily buy. For one thing, people are eager to attribute almost every single headache Harry has to Mab now.
You're missing the point. We have to assume that Harry would have used LC because he has done it before and he is satisfied enough with how well it works that he keeps going back to it. Would have, that is, if he had remembered to do so.
We Know that Mab has the power and the opportunity to do so. But, if it wasn't Mab we'd have to ask who else coudl it have been?
If it was just LC, or Just Mouse alone it wouldn't be so significant.
If it was important enough in the Plot for Harry to have his memory if it tampered with about it, then it's no where near Null.
LC doesn't make tracking spells work, but it does give Harry a wider area to use. Focusing the spell on Harry is a narrow area. Focusing it on Little Chicago and, as a result, most of the Loop and lake shore, casts a wider net.
In PG, tracking spells failed with or without LC until the right materials were used. No extended range has been shown that I know of.I though we had come to an agreement on this. There's textual evidence that Harry started using LC for his tracking spells. Based on his new procedure, he would have used LC for the tracking spell before he knew it wouldn't work. they're not done one at a time, but done together.
There's textual evidence that Harry started using LC for his tracking spells.
Not for ALL of them, so no I thought we agreed that Harry could NOT use LC unless a tracking spell would have worked. He doesn't run home and use LC at all times. He uses it with convenience or when he wants more out of a tracking spell other than a triangulation. Remember when he tracked Thomas in WN?Ah, I think I know where our breakdown is.
The car analogy is this. If a tracking spell will not work, then neither will LC. He can do whatever he wants and LC sits there dead as a lump. The moment a tracking spell WILL work then LC will do things. So why would Harry use it if he had already tried tracking and it didn't work?
So, let me repeat...if a tracking spell that does not use LC would not track a target then LC does nothing. You can do whatever you want to LC at that point and it is just a model sitting on a desk. What LC does is allow the tracking spells to do more in Chicago than just triangulate. The reason that LC is not useful in finding Thomas without a tracking spell is quite obvious...you would still have to cover every square inch of Chicago and then you still might not find him (because he would not be in Chicago).
Not for ALL of them, so no I thought we agreed that Harry could NOT use LC unless a tracking spell would have worked. He doesn't run home and use LC at all times. He uses it with convenience or when he wants more out of a tracking spell other than a triangulation. Remember when he tracked Thomas in WN?
The car analogy is this. If a tracking spell will not work, then neither will LC. He can do whatever he wants and LC sits there dead as a lump. The moment a tracking spell WILL work then LC will do things. So why would Harry use it if he had already tried tracking and it didn't work?
So, let me repeat...if a tracking spell that does not use LC would not track a target then LC does nothing. You can do whatever you want to LC at that point and it is just a model sitting on a desk. What LC does is allow the tracking spells to do more in Chicago than just triangulate. The reason that LC is not useful in finding Thomas without a tracking spell is quite obvious...you would still have to cover every square inch of Chicago and then you still might not find him (because he would not be in Chicago).
So I think we have reached the end. Which is that it is possible for Mab to have done so, but I still ask why...when she would have known it would fail in your model. In my mind it is just easier to see it as covered because Molly was doing something that might damage it. And Harry could uncover it whenever he needed it.Or he had it covered because of his relationship with Luccio. I'm not sure why he'd be keeping it from her, but he seemed to be keeping it from everyone except Molly. If Luccio is popping in and out, he might have just had it covered so that she wouldn't spot it if she came in while he was in the basement with the hatch door open.
Or he had it covered because of his relationship with Luccio. I'm not sure why he'd be keeping it from her, but he seemed to be keeping it from everyone except Molly. If Luccio is popping in and out, he might have just had it covered so that she wouldn't spot it if she came in while he was in the basement with the hatch door open.He might have been keeping it from everyone but Molly because everyone but Molly does not really understand magic and it's a very complicated magical structure.
Of course, that might intrigue her more than anything, and intriguing the captain of the wardens about what you're up to in your secret sub-basement lair doesn't sound like a good idea.
Or he had it covered because of his relationship with Luccio. I'm not sure why he'd be keeping it from her, but he seemed to be keeping it from everyone except Molly. If Luccio is popping in and out, he might have just had it covered so that she wouldn't spot it if she came in while he was in the basement with the hatch door open.
Of course, that might intrigue her more than anything, and intriguing the captain of the wardens about what you're up to in your secret sub-basement lair doesn't sound like a good idea.
If that was the goal, I suspect Bob would be hidden as well.I'm not sure is Bob is identifiable on sight. I know the show popularized the idea that he had carvings on his skull, but I'm not sure that he does. he might just look like a skull, which might be a macabre bookend, but one not completely our is place with a wizard. and she was pretty convinced he was dead.