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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 03:04:41 AM

Title: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 03:04:41 AM: In Jim Butcher's most recent interview with Daniel Greene, Jim mentions that in order to do magic you need both the study AND the bloodline. He also mentions that in order to be a Wizard, you need the bloodline whereas you are just a sorcerer otherwise. All about where you draw your power on I imagine.

This is interesting for several reasons.

There have been many references in the series about how powerful blood is, and particularly in magic. Blood of Christ is exceptionally strong as a curse for Michael, Harry's relation to Margaret Le Fay and eventually Eb is also played up a lot, mortal magic and blood having unique power and properties, blood sacrifices and bloodline curses and even death magic through a bloodline, not to mention that only people related to royalty can wield the Sword of the Cross.

It also (for me) highlights my theories around Harry's ancestry being important. Merlin was though to be the son of a women (sometimes a witch) and a succubus, or else the Devil himself (as sometimes Merlin was identified as the Antichrist) and his powers were the source of these interactions. I have speculated that if Harry is the Merlin, being the son of Lord Raith (a succubus) or even the Devil would add up. We also have the information that sometimes the scions of unions between mortals and the supernatural beings can look normal but have freakish power. This also could fit.

In Hellboy, it is Hellboy's mother who is really important. His father is Azazel, a Grand Duke of Hell, but his mother is the direct descendant of Mordred. This would also tie in with the King Arthur mythos (that is present subtly throughout the series). This ties Hellboy to being a direct descendant of Arthur and also Morgan Le Fay, able to be both the rightful King of England (mankind) and the witch Morgan (who was the apprentice of Merlin).

Harry at least is a descendant of Merlin through master to apprentice, as Ebenezer's journals go back all the way to Merlin. And often there is the theory that Merlin lived his life in reverse, perhaps Harry will too.

Harry has interesting links to Merlin too. Vadderung supposedly trained Merlin, and Harry has been helped by Dresden too. It wouldn't even totally surprise me if all three were one and the same. More than one person has held multiple identities.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 03:40:24 AM: I think the specific use of the word bloodline is more of a DnD reference. "Sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces." http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer).

Jim has stated that Merlin won't be in the series because he is dead, but then paused and said something about how dead is less of a permanent state in the genre kind of in a maybe he will be in the series way. It could be interpreted as if he had forgotten something about Merlin.

If Harry is descended from Merlin, then I really hope Harry doesn't time travel and become Merlin. Ick.

I really do feel like there's going to be an important Odin, Merlin, Harry thing revealed at some point in the series. My personal wag is that Odin begat Merlin who begat ... who begat Eb who begat Margaret who begat Harry. As a sub wag to that one, in Changes Arianna was ultimately targeting Eb, but the Red King was ultimately targeting Odin.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 04:26:51 AM: It is...but I don't think that makes it any less significant. He almost is shouting at us in that interview that Harry has an exotic bloodline.

Yeah - as has been discussed in depth, death is a very fuzzy concept in the Dresden Files. And a relative term.

Don't watch Dark (on Netflix), BA. If you think Harry being his own descendant is rough, you ain't seen nothing. Seriously loopy stuff in that show. But also awesome.

A good theory about Odin being the progenitor. I think you are really onto something with the Red King actually targeting beyond Eb. Tbh, it seemed like a lot of effort for a couple of Wizards. Considering the power behind the ritual/spell...seems a waste just for two Wizards. Either they were hoping to wipe out the White Court, or someone Eb was related to. Odin fits as good as any - and Odin v the Red King fits better too. Odin took almost personal interest in that matter, he even showed up to Chichen Itza. I think he was just as ready to wipe them out if necessary. I don't think he went to the wall at all.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 04:47:22 AM: It's not that I think it sickens me. It's that it would diminish my enjoyment of the story. Half the time it's not addressed so it seems like a mistake on the author's part. The other half my response is more "why would anyone write this?" I've seen something where a time traveling character was both father and mother to himself. I also think he was hunting himself and eventually kills himself (not in a traditional suicide scenario). I just don't get the point. I'm just not really into time-travel incest as a plot point. Except for Fry from Futurama. They did it brilliantly.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: didymos on March 25, 2020, 04:57:08 AM: Quote from: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 04:47:22 AM
It's not that I think it sickens me. It's that it would diminish my enjoyment of the story. Half the time it's not addressed so it seems like a mistake on the author's part. The other half my response is more "why would anyone write this?" I've seen something where a time traveling character was both father and mother to himself.

Sounds like Heinlein's story All You Zombies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_You_Zombies).
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 05:01:40 AM: Not Dresden Files Spoiler:
@didymos:
(click to show/hide)
Yeah, it was the Ethan Hawke film adaptation.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Avernite on March 25, 2020, 06:47:18 AM: Quote from: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 04:26:51 AM
A good theory about Odin being the progenitor. I think you are really onto something with the Red King actually targeting beyond Eb. Tbh, it seemed like a lot of effort for a couple of Wizards. Considering the power behind the ritual/spell...seems a waste just for two Wizards. Either they were hoping to wipe out the White Court, or someone Eb was related to. Odin fits as good as any - and Odin v the Red King fits better too. Odin took almost personal interest in that matter, he even showed up to Chichen Itza. I think he was just as ready to wipe them out if necessary. I don't think he went to the wall at all.
Not too sure; we know Odin took a personal interest, but so did Lea (and Mab though she was bribed), TWG (three Knights in one throw), the White Council...

and we're hit on the nose with the why: if the spell was weak, Eb could've ridden it out in Edinburgh behind the Wards, and probably be alright. If it's overpowered (and it took only some extra slaves to OVERpower it), he has to come out to the battleground of your choosing to die - and probably some other White Council hitters with it. Coupled with the disease in Edinburgh, it's a win-the-war move.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 08:27:23 AM: BA - Ah yes I remember that film...I didn't mind it actually but quite a different genre and feeling. I doubt Butcher would go that far though. But in general I think if you are going to do Time Travel, you are going to run into a few paradoxes. Just goes with the territory.

Avernite - Well part of the deal Mab had with Dresden to get him to be Winter Knight was to allow him that personal mission. In the broader sense I think she was happy to wipe out the Red Court, they had violated her territory and accords on numerous occasions and as Nicodemus puts it were "difficult in the short term, and dangerous in the mid-to-long term" or something to that effect. So Lea was thrown in to assist that endeavor, more than it being her personal interest. Although one could argue Harry's success was in her personal interest...he being her godson after all.

The Knights of the Cross were also all friends with Harry, one of which at that point was the child they were trying to rescue's mother and Harry's ex. And Murphy is Harry's best friend and sometimes love interest. Not to mention it seems that an Archangel wanted them there...the Swords only really show up wherever they are meant to.

Technically it was the Grey Council who showed up, the White Council (as far as we know) didn't show up officially and certainly not in force. Partially because of that contagion at Headquaters, and partially corruption/bureaucracy.

The spell wasn't weak though, and brute force isn't the only way through a defense. A cleverer attack would have been more useful, and more efficient. They used power because that's what they like. But perhaps also because they were trying to reach other people than Eb and Dresden. And as far as anyone knows, Eb didn't know until he met Vadderung about what they were trying. Vadderung seems to be the one who had the inside info. I don't see why Eb would have brought the White Council, in point of fact he chose not to.

I am not saying it's definite, but it does seem wasteful just to target Eb.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: g33k on March 25, 2020, 09:09:37 AM: I guess it's time for me to trot out my own personal WAG here...

Harry is a blood relative (a relatively close one) of >Heinrich Kemmler<. His bloodline is intimately linked to >necromancy<.

1. Grave Peril -- In the climactic battle, Harry wins by using "combat necromancy." Yeah, yeah, I know -- all the Bianca & Mavra & Nightmare stuff had been "weakening the veil" yada yada yada.

Whatever, not impressed. Typical Butcher smoke-and-mirrors.

Without ANY practice using necromancy (because 5th Law) or knowledge of spells (q.v. 5th Law), Harry just spontaneously summoned ghosts and shades and specters and wraiths and whatever by the hundreds.

We didn't see that kind of action again until the "Heirs of Kemmler" came to town, with their decades of experience in necromancy -- and they too were conducting rituals to make ghost-summoning easier, prep'ing for the Darkhallow.

Harry did the self-same thing; only HE did it without study or practice, as a weaker "junior wizard" (book 3). Harry's own evaluation, from tangling with the Heirs (in book 7, where he was much stronger) was that any of them was MORE than a match for him in raw power. But to judge from Book 3... evidently not.

2. Also in GP: Sue. This impressed everybody. Centuries-old Luccio, head of the WC's combat-wizards. Those Heirs who saw it.

The freaking Erlking!

3. Ghost Story -- In the scene where Corpsetaker had swiped Butters' body, just before she "killed" the Harry-manifested ectoplasm-body, she said "You were able to manifest after all? Intriguing. You've a natural gift for darker magic, I think. My master would have snapped you up in an instant."

Harry has the kind of profound gifts that come inherited in the bloodline; and they're gifts of necromancy.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Fox on March 25, 2020, 02:15:39 PM: I watched that interview too, Daniel was specifically asking about Harry in terms of D&D Wizards. In D&D Wizards get their magic by studying, Sorcerers are just born with it (mostly). Jim clarified that in the Dresden Files Wizards are a bit of a combination of the two- a wizard has to be born with the potential to use magic on a certain level, as well as learn how to use magic etc.

He also mentioned that in D&D terms Harry would be a Warlock because of his deal with Mab. D&D Warlocks get their powers by making a deal with some powerful entity- they’re not just dark magic users like in the Dresden Files.

While I don’t necessarily disagree that Harry might have some powerful or exotic ancestry, I don’t think this quote is the evidence of it.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Mira on March 25, 2020, 05:27:51 PM: Quote from: Fox on March 25, 2020, 02:15:39 PM
I watched that interview too, Daniel was specifically asking about Harry in terms of D&D Wizards. In D&D Wizards get their magic by studying, Sorcerers are just born with it (mostly). Jim clarified that in the Dresden Files Wizards are a bit of a combination of the two- a wizard has to be born with the potential to use magic on a certain level, as well as learn how to use magic etc.

He also mentioned that in D&D terms Harry would be a Warlock because of his deal with Mab. D&D Warlocks get their powers by making a deal with some powerful entity- they’re not just dark magic users like in the Dresden Files.

While I don’t necessarily disagree that Harry might have some powerful or exotic ancestry, I don’t think this quote is the evidence of it.

I thought the deal was with Lea? Also Jim has said in the past that what she did was merely confidence building and no power per say, I also thought that the reason why he was declared a warlock was because he killed with magic when he killed Justin.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 05:31:50 PM: Quote from: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 08:27:23 AM
more than it being her personal interest. Although one could argue Harry's success was in her personal interest...he being her godson after all.
She specifically says she didn't owe it to Mab to do as much as she did. She wanted revenge for the Nemesis infected gift.

@g33k: I don't know if you're right or if I agree with you, but I like it. To ad to it, Dresden does seem like a German last name. Maybe there was something special about Malcolm's ancestry as well?
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Fox on March 30, 2020, 05:58:02 AM: Quote from: Mira on March 25, 2020, 05:27:51 PM
I thought the deal was with Lea? Also Jim has said in the past that what she did was merely confidence building and no power per say, I also thought that the reason why he was declared a warlock was because he killed with magic when he killed Justin.

I think Jim was referring obliquely to Harry becoming Winter Knight (the guy interviewing him had just finished White Night, so Jim was being a little bit carful about spoilers for him)- he did specifically mention Mab, not Lea.

The Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer mentions in regards to Harry were about what class of character he would be if you tried to make him in Dungeons and Dragons. Jim’s point was that he uses the above terms differently in his works than they’re used in D&D.

This is out of universe stuff, the Daniel I mentioned is the name of the person interviewing Jim, not Daniel Carpenter FYI. Sorry if that was confusing.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Mira on March 30, 2020, 01:33:50 PM: Quote
I think Jim was referring obliquely to Harry becoming Winter Knight (the guy interviewing him had just finished White Night, so Jim was being a little bit carful about spoilers for him)- he did specifically mention Mab, not Lea.

In Summer Knight, Mab does say that she had taken over the contract that Harry had with Lea. It is clear from that point on what she wants Harry for.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on March 30, 2020, 11:36:26 PM: Quote from: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 03:40:24 AM
Jim has stated that Merlin won't be in the series because he is dead, but then paused and said something about how dead is less of a permanent state in the genre kind of in a maybe he will be in the series way. It could be interpreted as if he had forgotten something about Merlin.

If Harry is descended from Merlin, then I really hope Harry doesn't time travel and become Merlin. Ick.
Put your ick away. That puts the paradox before the horse and I hope Jim is a better writer than that. Your assuming that Merlin had kids and the myth as I remember it has Morgana putting him in an enchanted sleep in a tree. Which works well since he can wake up in the now and kick some BAT ass. ;D
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on March 30, 2020, 11:47:46 PM: Quote from: Bad Alias on March 25, 2020, 04:47:22 AM
It's not that I think it sickens me. It's that it would diminish my enjoyment of the story. Half the time it's not addressed so it seems like a mistake on the author's part. The other half my response is more "why would anyone write this?" I've seen something where a time traveling character was both father and mother to himself.

Aside from "All You Zombies," there's a Robert Heinlein novel "Time Enough for Love" (Published in 1973 and it's actually a series of novellas strung together about one character), where the main character, who is 2,000 years old, goes back in time to World War 1 and has a sexual relationship with his mother. In an earlier part of the novel he performs a marriage for a brother and sister who may also be two of his many, many descendants. I read that novel sometime in the late 1980's; and while the TV show South Park was far in the future, I remember thinking much like Stan when he said to Kyle in an early episode, "Dude, this is pretty f***** up right here."

On a more serious note, my guess is Jim is going to be very sparing with his use of time travel, other than the novel where Harry breaks the law. While it's not impossible for Odin to be some kind of progenitor, I seriously doubt it's a road Jim would travel down. I won't be surprised if we never learn how the Gatekeeper killed Abdul Alhazred; the H.P. Lovecraft character who died in the 8th century C.E., which is long before even Ancient Mai was born. It might something as simple as Rashid being born in the 8th century and spending so much time in the Nevernever he has time slipped forward so much that biologically he is younger than Mai. That doesn't mean that Jim will ever spell out all the details.

I expect that even the story with Harry time travelling will have a strong element of "Back to the Future" in it, with Harry not trying to change the future so much as preventing someone else of messing with the past while not changing anything himself.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on March 31, 2020, 12:26:51 AM: I thought I had read everything Heinlein wrote. I'm glad I missed it. His last good book is The Moon is A Harsh Mistress. Which he managed to f**k up by trying to retcon it in another book, I believe The Cat Who Could Walk Through Walls. You could get dizzy trying to keep up. Tine travel is a cheap solution used by idiots with absolutely zero skills. You can count the number of times it's used well on the fingers of my fathers hand, which was shy one due to him not listening to his own advice. The most novel story being the Weapons Shops of Isher.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on March 31, 2020, 05:35:39 PM: Quote from: morriswalters on March 30, 2020, 11:36:26 PM
Put your ick away.
Classic Morris.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on March 31, 2020, 06:20:15 PM: I'd give you non classic Morris but he not very interesting. ::)
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Snark Knight on April 02, 2020, 02:38:09 PM: Quote from: Yuillegan on March 25, 2020, 04:26:51 AM
Don't watch Dark (on Netflix), BA. If you think Harry being his own descendant is rough, you ain't seen nothing. Seriously loopy stuff in that show. But also awesome.

It's so good though.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Snark Knight on April 02, 2020, 02:45:01 PM: Quote from: g33k on March 25, 2020, 09:09:37 AM
I guess it's time for me to trot out my own personal WAG here...

Harry is a blood relative (a relatively close one) of >Heinrich Kemmler<. His bloodline is intimately linked to >necromancy<.

Is bloodline still important when you're swapping bodies on the regular?
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 03, 2020, 10:45:52 PM: SK - I quite agree. Dark is amazing. But I thought it probably wasn't good for Bad Alias, considering the previous comment about disliking Time Travel stories. And that's an interesting counter to the bloodline theory i.e. how does body-swapping fit?

My guess is that because blood and spirit are somehow directly related in the Dresden Files (we learn about this several times), I guess that your spirit inhabiting a new vessel might change the blood's "magical" properties to suit the invading being. Zelazny talks about this in Lord of Light where each "god" changes their new body to resemble the old one, because the true "self" (atman) is made of a chemical-electric field and doesn't change, whereas the body is more malleable.

The other possibility is that body-swappers can only pick magically significant vessels, the stronger the better. But the Corpsetakers form that we meet it in seems to be weak magically, as it limited Luccio (who doesn't appear to have Corpsetakers tricks to overcome those limitations, as Corpsetaker did not appear overly limited in that vessel).

KurtinStGeorge - I am going to have to disagree with you there. I think it is highly likely Abdul Alhazred will become more than a background mention. He wrote the book, literally, on Outsiders and Old Ones. If you see my new thread about similarities between Butcher and Lovecraft and Zelazny, you might change your mind. The other thing I think people have failed to consider is whether Rashid is OUR Rashid i.e. is he the one from this Time, even this Universe? Could also be a solution to him being a thousand years old. Odin might not be the progenitor of Harry's bloodline, but he is the spiritual one at least (considering he taught Merlin, and Merlin's line of masters and apprentices stretches all the way down to Eb and Harry). Odin is also often known as the All-father, and he sired many gods and beings. I don't think it is mad to think that he sired Harry's bloodline. Far more difficult to tell is whether he is also Harry or Merlin or both. That's why its a WAG!

Morris - some versions indeed have Merlin go to sleep, often by trickery and entombed in crystal beneath a lake. Hence why so many think he is in Demonreach. In some it is Morgan, in the earliest version I think it is Nimue (the original Lady of the Lake). But I think you should consider the line "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange Aeons even Death may die" and revisit the idea about Merlin's fate.

Fox - Perhaps you are right and this interview isn't strong evidence of Harry's ancestry. But we do know that he is starborn, so I daresay that in pure D&D terms he is more a Warlock or Sorcerer than Wizard. So I tend to think of this interview as marrying up the conflicting builds.

G33k - Great WAG - very enjoyable! I think there is definitely something weird how Harry could just raise a Tyrannosaurus Rex with no training, or use ghosts as combat magic in Grave Peril. Jim has tried to convince us that there were special circumstances around the veil, or that Harry is just extra strong. But Evil Bob gives it away - he senses the True Magic in Dresden. Whether he is related to Kemmler or whether he just has the same special background remains to be seen. But I do think Harry has a special connection to Necromancy.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 04, 2020, 03:48:00 AM: Quote from: Yuillegan on April 03, 2020, 10:45:52 PM
But I thought it probably wasn't good for Bad Alias, considering the previous comment about disliking Time Travel stories.
It's not that I don't like time travel stories. It's that I don't like pointless incest (or maybe incest being the point?) time travel stories. Also really poorly done time travel stories. I do think time travel stories are hard to do without accidentally breaking your own rules. I have a hard time thinking of a well known time travel centered story that doesn't have at least a few internal logic problems.

Quote from: Yuillegan on April 03, 2020, 10:45:52 PM
I don't think it is mad to think that he [Odin] sired Harry's bloodline.
It's my favorite barely supported WAG. Emphasis on guess. I admit the evidence for it is exceptionally thin.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 04, 2020, 04:19:59 AM: You should consider that Rashid may only age when he leaves the Gates and comes to the real world, if he ages at all. This could be a property of the Gates themselves. If the Gates guard reality and time exists only in this Universe time may not pass at the gates at all.

It really doesn't matter what the mythology of Merlin is. You can make anything out of it you want, if your mind is as fertile as Jim's. He's telegraphed two possible time travel scenarios. And thrown out some pretty big clues. He's pushed the idea of cause and effect being pretty important and suggested in Cold Days that Harry had already saved the prison before the fact.

Breaking cause and effect is what creates bad time travel stories. You can't make up a rule that can make it make sense. And going back in time to bang your many greats grandmother is one of the worst. It isn't even incest. But it does break cause and effect.

Here's a silly WAG. One day Harry wakes up in Chicago and the island is no longer there. In the time after that moment Harry is attacked by all the Gods and Monsters that he thought existed in Demonreach. Hilarity ensues and Harry and his allies create the summoning circle and the prison in the past and send back the Monsters and Dark Gods. So in post BAT because they got sent back in time and Demonreach doesn't exist in that present. In future Chicago there are no Dark Gods and Monsters. There is no evil ley line in the lake. The island no longer exists. And because the prison doesn't exist in the future the creatures that exist in it are locked out of the future forever if they don't escape in the past. Which they never do, because well, they didn't. This is a reverse paradox. :o
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 04, 2020, 03:19:33 PM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 04, 2020, 04:19:59 AM
[1]You should consider that Rashid may only age when he leaves the Gates and comes to the real world, if he ages at all. This could be a property of the Gates themselves. If the Gates guard reality and time exists only in this Universe time may not pass at the gates at all.

...

[2]Breaking cause and effect is what creates bad time travel stories. You can't make up a rule that can make it make sense. [3]And going back in time to bang your many greats grandmother is one of the worst. It isn't even incest. But it does break cause and effect.

[4]Here's a silly WAG. One day Harry wakes up in Chicago and the island is no longer there. In the time after that moment Harry is attacked by all the Gods and Monsters that he thought existed in Demonreach. Hilarity ensues and Harry and his allies create the summoning circle and the prison in the past and send back the Monsters and Dark Gods. So in post BAT because they got sent back in time and Demonreach doesn't exist in that present. In future Chicago there are no Dark Gods and Monsters. There is no evil ley line in the lake. The island no longer exists. And because the prison doesn't exist in the future the creatures that exist in it are locked out of the future forever if they don't escape in the past. Which they never do, because well, they didn't. This is a reverse paradox. :o
1. Interesting.
2. A lot of times they set up rules that make sense. Then they do a thing that violates those rules. Linear cause and effect has to be broken in time travel stories unless there is a closed loop.
3. Huh. It isn't incest, at least technically. It is a bootstrap paradox of genetic information.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 04, 2020, 05:42:40 PM: A bootstrap paradox is simply broken cause and effect.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 05, 2020, 02:38:43 AM: BA - My apologies, I didn't explain that well. I was being brief, but yes I appreciate there is a difference between not liking Time Travel stories and not liking incest Time Travel stories. And I agree that it is hard to do right - it often depends on which scientific theories the author uses (and how well they understand them) or choose not to use (for that matter). I suspect Jim will use a light touch as it is just a lot less risky, and because as Vadderung points out it is very, very difficult.

The Odin-as-a-sire theory is an interesting one, and also hints at the greater question of the origins of practitioners in general. Are they like x-men mutants, a separate or higher evolved beings? Were they tampered with by the early gods for some purpose? Are they the spawn of mortals and supernatural beings, maybe even gods or angels etc? Perhaps they are remnants of an earlier race of men, like the Hyborians? Or is it just something that each human has a small potential of, perhaps because they have a soul (which I believe Harry has hinted at)?

Morris - Time is relative, time clearly passes at the Gates or quite literally nothing would have taken place. Or everything would have taken place all at once, and likely Harry would not have been able to survive either way. Although I think it is highly likely time passes at a completely different rate to Harry's Earth. It almost certainly isn't in sync. Which isn't to say events on Earth, or events at the Gates don't effect each other. But who the hell knows how?

Yes I agree, Jim can make it whatever he wants it to be. Although he almost certainly will break cause and effect. All that stuff about Intellectus beings not even understanding cause and effect really, hint at that. How you deal with that is up to you, but he might do it well. Stranger things have happened.

Often Time Travel, at least in the past, was used as a narrative device with no bearing really on physics. And it only operated to service the story, and so was only considered good or bad on how well it did that. Unfortunately, a lot of reviewers and writers learnt from that school and still see it that way. I think the modern audience however is tired of that and expects a higher standard. Avengers Infinity War shows that (even if they violated their own rules, they did point out the ridiculousness of previous Time Travel rules and how audiences want more). Dr Who hardly even cares, because like Harry Potter the show is less about the magic rules and more about the story. Which seems strange in a show about a Time Traveller, but there you go.

Better TT rules are more about limits, and things like relativity than straight up teleporting up and down the time stream. But that's just my opinion. The universe gives no free lunch!

I like that silly WAG. Maybe that's the real story because it is so ridiculous that Jim thought no one wold be squirrel-y enough to think of it!
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 05, 2020, 01:03:15 PM: It makes as much sense as magic Gates and a wall keeping the Outsiders from our reality. However I'm not married to the idea, I just offered it.

Jim has already given us most of the rules on time travel in the Dresdenverse. He uses the metaphor of a river in the law against time travel, thou shall not swim against the currents of time, or something close to that. And what rears its ugly little head in Changes, but a river that flows backwards in time. Which Jim highlights for us.

He then has Vadderung tell you what breaking cause and effect does. It splits off a new branch on the tree of time. And Jim then tells you that he is going to explore one of those branches in Mirror Mirror.

In my silly WAG Jim would avoid the bootstrap paradox by having Harry never know the meaning of any of the things he uses until after they have been used. He gets the knowledge to build the tools in the future. Thus Vadderung's, perhaps you've already done it comment. The river only flows backwards so once he uses it he can't get back. He stops five times on the way back to build the prison. The only way to get back is to hide in stasis and come back in a cell in Demonreach. End silly wag. I'm not married to this either. :) But it is mostly consistent and doesn't seem to break cause and effect.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 05, 2020, 01:13:37 PM: Well that's true I suppose, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Jim should follow his own rules, at least.

Yeah, that was a bit of a hit with the clue bat. I suspect we will see time travel a few times before all is said and done. But man I hope he gets it right.

My word your mind is fertile. You WAG would make for an interesting parody I suspect!
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 05, 2020, 03:49:01 PM: Jim should do whatever his heart tells him to do. He's done pretty good to this point so I doubt I would be disappointed with whatever his choices might be. But I have seen authors run off the rails and lose the narrative trying to be cute. The Iron Druid did this, and I gave it up.

He has shown a disturbing tendency to run on and not keep the story telling as tight as it could be. It's mentioned in an interview somewhere. Peace Talks appears to be just the kind of error. Essentially as described it appears to be one book padded to make two. How well that will work will only be known after the fact.

You say fertile, my wife on the other hand says twisted. In any case since I won't be here for the BAT, so that is how my version ends.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 05, 2020, 10:49:28 PM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 04, 2020, 05:42:40 PM
A bootstrap paradox is simply broken cause and effect.
Just putting a name to that specific "breaking" of cause and effect. Aren't all time travel paradoxes breaking cause and effect in some way? I'm not coming up with any off the top of my head that don't.

@Yuillegan: No apologies necessary. I find the biggest flaw with most time travel stories is that they don't follow their own rules. Honestly, some of the best ones are the best in part because they only break their own rules once or twice.

Jim has repeatedly said all humans can do some magic. It's more the origins of the ability to sense magic or have lots of innate ability that I think is the mystery.

Quote from: morriswalters on April 05, 2020, 01:03:15 PM
And Jim then tells you that he is going to explore one of those branches in Mirror Mirror.
That branch exists because of Choice, not time travel. Which really irks me because it means that every time Choice is exercised, it also isn't exercised.

The Gates could just as easily affect aging as they could time, which is just a slight tweak to your theory.

I do think Jim had a really good idea for a primary rule for time travel in his series. The Law of Conservation of Time. That rule allows for flexibility in going back in time, doing things that would drastically change things under most time travel rules, but don't in the Dresden Files because there is a fundamental rule of the universe that it's hard to change something that has already happened. A similar thing was done in Farscape where past events only had to be "close enough" to not affect the broader timeline.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 06, 2020, 12:00:20 AM: A split is a split. How would Jim explain the difference?
Quote from: Bad Alias
I do think Jim had a really good idea for a primary rule for time travel in his series. The Law of Conservation of Time. That rule allows for flexibility in going back in time, doing things that would drastically change things under most time travel rules, but don't in the Dresden Files because there is a fundamental rule of the universe that it's hard to change something that has already happened. A similar thing was done in Farscape where past events only had to be "close enough" to not affect the broader timeline.
All well and good until you consider what Harry will be trying to do by time traveling. It comes down to he going to try and save the world. Am I missing something? The Chronicles of St. Mary's has a pretty nifty plot point to take care of it. Monkey with causality and the Universe kills you.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 06, 2020, 01:22:43 AM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 06, 2020, 12:00:20 AM
A split is a split. How would Jim explain the difference?
A time travel split could eventually merge back into the original time line, but, narratively, that rule would be difficult to work into a story with a satisfying payoff. Also, why not have multiple things that result in a thing? Time travel, Choice, quantum mechanics. Why only have one cause of multiple universes?

Honestly, it's just another reason for me to not like the set up to Mirror, Mirror. There are better ways to explain alternate universes. It's a little harder to do it in a universe with free will, but I'm sure Jim could pull it off.

Quote from: morriswalters on April 06, 2020, 12:00:20 AM
All well and good until you consider what Harry will be trying to do by time traveling. It comes down to he going to try and save the world. Am I missing something?
Harry can change the one thing without undoing everything because it takes focus to change that one thing. A story centered around a McGuffin, the change to the timeline, can be action packed and entertaining. It could be some simple thing that Harry realizes he will need that got burned up in his apartment. A "if we only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something" situation.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 06, 2020, 02:02:56 AM: There are a limited number of story reasons to go back. At 68 I'll never know. So I've picked mine. It fits the facts as we know them. It doesn't offend my sense of physics too badly. And I can back fill with my imagination. It's stupid but it's a place to hang my hat. Here's to Peace Talks.

Toodles
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 06, 2020, 05:52:35 PM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 06, 2020, 02:02:56 AM
Toodles
:)
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 07, 2020, 12:06:54 AM: BA - I guess all rules are made to be broken, to a point. I guess we will see how well Jim handles it. Some will hate it, some won't care, some will love it. Nature of the business.

I am aware that all humans have the potential to do magic, and I think it is a reasonable guess to assume it is to do with having a soul. But the origins of why and how are interesting to me, and I hope that Jim explores that more thoroughly. And yes, why some have greater talent/poential is also an interesting avenue.

An interesting thing is the way it has been discussed, people have always assumed that when a Choice is presented there are only two options (and therefore only two Universes created) per Choice. But what if each Choice has multiple options? That would astronomically increase the size of the prize, and indeed the problem.

Morris - I do hope you are able to see the end. For what its worth, whatever your personal circumstances, I have heard Jim say that he has given ARC's to people who are in the Armed Forces and who are sick in hospital etc. He might even tell you some extra details, if you reach out. Just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: didymos on April 07, 2020, 12:10:07 AM: Quote from: Yuillegan on April 07, 2020, 12:06:54 AM
I am aware that all humans have the potential to do magic, and I think it is a reasonable guess to assume it is to do with having a soul.

Faeries have magic and they don't have souls.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 07, 2020, 12:51:27 AM: Quote from: Yuillegan on April 07, 2020, 12:06:54 AM
An interesting thing is the way it has been discussed, people have always assumed that when a Choice is presented there are only two options (and therefore only two Universes created) per Choice. But what if each Choice has multiple options?
My interpretation: A Choice is acting against one's nature. Therefore the options are exercise Free Will or don't. When a Choice is made, it is a specific action. The alternative isn't all possible Choices but whatever action a (perfect) deterministic model of the universe would have predicted. While someone could Choose many different paths, they only Chose one that they did. The other timeline isn't a different Choice. It's a lack of Choice.

I'd much prefer a system in which every splinter was a different Choice and none of them were the lack of Choice.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 01:44:37 AM: My personal problem is age. That and Jim's desire to write 24, or given the latest, more books. That is the arrow of time for ya.

@Bad Alias
The is no such thing as not making a choice. The very act of not doing anything is itself a choice.

@Yuillegan
This is the Dresdenverse, only Harry matters. If you believe in the multiverse then the idea of an infinite number of universes shouldn't be all that strange to you. After Heinlein wrote Methuselah's Children he wrote of a universe where everything ever thought of was real and existed somewhere. There is a car named Gay Deceiver, which has a door which opens in to OZ. Almost every character Heinlein created is in that book.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 07, 2020, 02:15:38 AM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 01:44:37 AM
@Bad Alias
The is no such thing as not making a choice. The very act of not doing anything is itself a choice.
There's a reason I chose to capitalize Choice and Free Will. I'm not talking about a choice but a Choice. An act against one's nature. One could Choose not to act, or one could not act because that is one's nature. One is an exercise of free will and the other isn't. An act of free will is a Choice. Everything else is not.
Quote
you'd be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives.
Uriel in The Warrior responding to Dresden's statement that what Uriel was saying "smelled" a lot like predestination.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 03:58:02 AM: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. So if your nature is to be a good guy then the only way to make a Choice is to make an evil choice?
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: g33k on April 07, 2020, 11:40:30 AM: Quote from: Bad Alias on April 07, 2020, 02:15:38 AM
There's a reason I chose to capitalize Choice and Free Will. I'm not talking about a choice but a Choice. An act against one's nature. One could Choose not to act, or one could not act because that is one's nature. One is an exercise of free will and the other isn't. An act of free will is a Choice. Everything else is not...

Hmm.
This is an interesting tangent!

Let's take another of Harry's choice points. He's laying in St. Mary's with a broken back, and little Maggie is going to be sacrificed soon.

So he chooses to summon Mab, and make a deal for the WK Mantle and enough power to rescue his daughter.

He could have chosen to summon Lasciel's coin.

I don't THINK he was able to do a Darkhallow -- he didn't have enough Death on-hand, enough uneasy Spirits to consume, etc. But maybe I'm wrong; whatever...

He certainly had at least two sources of Power he could call upon.

Was that a Choice that he made? Mab vs. Lasciel?

Or was it simply his Nature? His daughter needed to be rescued, and nobody else would do it, so he HAD to do it -- he had no choice (or rather, if he had chosen to let events happen to her without him, THAT would have been Free Will: not a choice but a Choice)?

Interesting analysis... Very thought-provoking!
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 07, 2020, 06:21:48 PM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 03:58:02 AM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. So if your nature is to be a good guy then the only way to make a Choice is to make an evil choice?
That's a bit simplistic, but yes (in the Dresden Files, whether or not free will and choice actually exist in the real world is a debate I don't care to get into because I don't see any point to me doing it). I think g33k's example would be better to zero in on they dynamics as I understand them.

Let's say Harry's nature is to save his little girl no matter what the cost. That's basically how Jim describes the story, so I think that's accurate, but let's just agree to it for the sake of argument. Once Harry's back is broken, he has options for obtaining power. Therefore his nature compels him to exercise one of those options. We could further say that Harry's nature compels him to exercise the least evil option. Harry thinks that's Mab. I think he was right. Assuming all that, Harry would have to Choose to use the Dark Hallow, summon the coin, or do nothing.

Quote from: g33k on April 07, 2020, 11:40:30 AM
He could have chosen to summon Lasciel's coin.

I don't THINK he was able to do a Darkhallow -- he didn't have enough Death on-hand, enough uneasy Spirits to consume, etc. But maybe I'm wrong; whatever...
I'm not sure about either of those. Lash never showed Harry how to summon the coin. IIRC, Harry thought it would have been impossible. Maybe simply knowing it wasn't was enough for him to figure it out. I don't know. I'm skeptical as to whether or not Harry knows how to do the Dark Hallow at all. When talking about Harry's options in Changes Jim said he knew how because he looked flipped through the Word of Kemmler with his Sight open. I think it was in response to a question about whether or not he was bluffing Mab on having other options. But we know Jim is wrong. Harry used Lash.

But if Harry does know how to do a Dark Hallow, then he probably wouldn't have needed the same amount of power to assault the Red Court as the Kemmlerites would have needed to become a god. Basically, I'm suggesting he could have performed a mini-Dark Hallow.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 08:26:26 PM: To begin with Lash knew the ritual for the Darkhallow, not Harry. Sans Lash, why would you assume that Harry could do it, not withstanding the broken back, which would seem to be a major impediment? In a similar vein, the coin could be summoned because the Shadow knew how to do it, lacking the Shadow why do you think that Harry could summon it? At that moment Harry had one choice, the Knight's mantle. There is no other effective choice.

The choices that led to his breaking his back would have been the salient ones. Uriel told him as much. The tendency is to believe we come to a point when a great choice stands before us. Which is wish fulfillment, nothing more. That final choice is the sum of many other choices that it took to get to that moment. Trying to save the other people in the boarding house would be the choice in line with his personality. He could have chose to watch them burn. Or long before that he could have chose to not to live so close to people that he would have to make the choice to save them or not. Remember the Wizard's Tower?
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: g33k on April 07, 2020, 09:59:52 PM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 08:26:26 PM
To begin with Lash knew the ritual for the Darkhallow, not Harry. Sans Lash, why would you assume that Harry could do it, not withstanding the broken back, which would seem to be a major impediment? In a similar vein, the coin could be summoned because the Shadow knew how to do it, lacking the Shadow why do you think that Harry could summon it?
...

In the final analysis -- because Jim could write it that way, if he had wanted to. For Doylist reasons, this is sufficient unto itself! ;-)

But there are solid Watsonian lines of argument, too...

Grevane, IIRC, just skimmed the Word, and reported the Darkhallow as remarkably simple. Harry (not Lash) summoned Sue, so Harry may not even have needed Lash's memories to reconstruct such a "remarkably simple" process -- particularly since Harry seems to be "a natural" with Necromancy!

The canonical truth is: Lasciel, the Fallen Angel, made a great big STOMP onto Harry's mind. She filled it with her Shadow, and imbued that Shadow with a bunch of knowledge (Etruscan/Whamp & Sumerian/Ghoul languages (and likely others, at a guess), various kinds of magic, the fact (and implications) of Harry's Starborn-ness, etc etc etc), and at least a couple of mental quirks: a "photographic memory," and some musical techniques. Potentially, a bunch of other stuff Jim may have considered (but decided not to whip out of that particular diabolus ex machina).

It is equally canonical that -- once enSTOMPed -- this was all IN HARRY'S MIND, not any separate outside source. Lasciel seemed to have put up some barriers, so the Shadow would be Harry's "gatekeeper" to dole out goodies, to tempt with Easy Solutions, etc etc etc. But the Shadow itself got tempted, instead... Lash seems to have abandoned all that barrier-to-knowlege.

We know Lash left Harry some music.

We know she did NOT leave him with the exotic languages.

We know Lash left Harry with a Li'l Surprise (or maybe became that Surprise?)

In principle, Lash could have left Harry with some/all of the Word of Kemmler, or just the Darkhallow. She could also have left Harry with instructions on Coin-summoning (it's ALSO apparently pretty easy (I guess Jim thinks "Cheap Cosmic Power" is typically made pretty easy by the Bad Guys).
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 10:48:26 PM: Jim left Harry with a broken back. That's a story choice meant to do exactly what it did. Harry wasn't going to do the Darkhallow. Harry wasn't going to take a leak without lots of help. And if you want to think that the coins can be summoned by just any old oddball then who am I to suggest otherwise.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Mira on April 07, 2020, 10:48:59 PM: Quote
In principle, Lash could have left Harry with some/all of the Word of Kemmler, or just the Darkhallow. She could also have left Harry with instructions on Coin-summoning (it's ALSO apparently pretty easy (I guess Jim thinks "Cheap Cosmic Power" is typically made pretty easy by the Bad Guys).

Yeah, well, the series is about choices.. Harry had those choices and he chose to become Mab's Knight. Maybe not the best choice for himself, but then again...
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 07, 2020, 11:35:57 PM: It's a curious issue, between Choice and choice.

Bad Alias, you could well be right that the only real choices are between acting in accordance with one's true nature, and acting against it. A Choice.

On the other hand, the way Jim has spoken about it doesn't necessarily line up with that. What he has explicitly said is that for each mortal choice that is made, more universes inside a greater multiverse are created. 4

Philosophically you could argue that ALL Choices are choosing to act with or against one's nature, even if it is as mundane as which burger should I eat. But you could also argue that only during critical moments do we ever make real Choices, and everything else (the minor decisions) are all just ripples of the bigger Choice.

Curiously, the Many-Worlds Theory and others like it seem to agree that every option has an associated universe to go with it, based on probabilities. But of course as Stephen Hawking once remarked, all we are really calculating is the possibilities, not probabilities and we haven't actually measured any of these possible universes. He believed everyone had gotten carried away with the idea, and the truth was far more likely that there was only a very limited number of universes (maybe even only this one). The great thing about Hawking is he was smart enough to know how much he didn't know i.e. who was he to tell anyone what to believe?

From a purely logical point of view just based on WOJ, we can ascertain a few things.
1) Choice creates universes.
2) There is broadcast spectrum of universes in a greater multiverse (and their may be a greater multiverse above that - which Jim has hinted at but let's leave that out for the moment)
3) Therefore there have been enough mortal Choices (whether mundane or significant - acting with or against ones nature) to create an almost infinite number of universes.

This leaves some big questions.
1) What was the first universe? Was it Dresden's?
2) Before mortals were around to make Choices, and therefore more universes, how many universes were there?
3) Depending on how you look at history and what you believe, when did Harry's universe start creating more universes? Was this when mortals showed up? Is this what kicked the Old Ones out or locked them away? Is this what caused the War in Heaven and is the reason for Lucifer's argument with TWG?
4) If Angels and Old Ones existed before Time was a thing (as Jim puts it), before the all the universes then what were they all doing?(which is an oxymoron in itself - you can't exist "before" Time exactly...there would be motion if something existed and therefore Time would measure it. Although I suppose it could all just be happening at once and never fading as there might not be entropy, but what an awful existence that would be)
5) When (if you can even bother to ask such a question before Time exists) did TWG decide to start the party?
6) Does it even matter? In fact, there is a reasonable physics argument to say that because the Angels etc existed "before" Creation, the already have seen its end because from their perspective it would have simultaneously occurred along with Creation and all that's in between. This is why perspective is God. If you have all perspectives, you have omniscience (which is to say the same thing). In order to have that you would need to be omnipresent, and in turn that would make you omnipotent. So in a sense (as sort of confirmed by Uriel) TWG is constant, and everywhere. Which makes TWG everything. Kinda a scary notion, because like a single atom making up a person, every person and every single thing would just be one small part of the greater being that would be a Creator/TWG.

Sorry for the massive tangent. But we are getting into serious metaphysics and philosophical questions here.

Also - I think Jim was saying Harry had other options just in terms of the fact he wasn't sure which way he wanted Dresden to go (Hell aligned, Necromancer, Winter). Which I think is a bit unlikely, you can tell from how he writes Mab alone that he was always setting up Dresden to be on her team. It was always going to be Winter, somehow. Which isn't to say we might not see Necromancer Dresden or Lasciel-bonded Dresden, from parallel universes. In fact I wonder if we might see one of those in Mirror Mirror?
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 08, 2020, 12:42:42 AM: Quote from: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 08:26:26 PM
To begin with Lash knew the ritual for the Darkhallow, not Harry. Sans Lash, why would you assume that Harry could do it, not withstanding the broken back, which would seem to be a major impediment?
The only thing I can think of is that Harry did have to understand the Darkhallow to stop it. I don't know how much he had to understand. Without that, I can't say whether or not he knew enough to do it. It usually requires less information to know how to wreck something than it is to do it, so ...

As to the rest, I was just using that situation to illustrate a concept. Yes, small decisions lead to large outcomes. Small decisions could just as easily be Choices as big decisions. Moving out of the boarding house probably would have been a Choice because Harry is such a creature of habit. Staying there would be a choice because it is in accord with his nature.

@g33k: I don't think we know how Lash actually worked.

Quote from: morriswalters on April 07, 2020, 10:48:26 PM
Jim left Harry with a broken back. That's a story choice meant to do exactly what it did. Harry wasn't going to do the Darkhallow. Harry wasn't going to take a leak without lots of help. And if you want to think that the coins can be summoned by just any old oddball then who am I to suggest otherwise.
Yeah. I don't see how he could pull anything off other than the deal with Mab, but I'm not sure I could write a good story at all, so maybe Jim could come up with convincing scenarios for either the Darkhallow or summoning the coin.

@Yuillegan: The reason that I distinguish between Choice and choice is largely because of The Warrior short story. Read the last bit of it again if you don't recall what Uriel says about free will. Uriel strongly implies free will is seldom exercised.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 08, 2020, 01:41:05 AM: The more books Jim writes the more often he is going to stumble over this. Obviously free will and choice mean a lot to his story, but he needs to be really vague and not commit. More hand wavium so to speak.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 08, 2020, 02:11:42 AM: Morris - I agree. Tolkien was a master of that, as was Lovecraft. Less is more.

BA - I remember the quote. And I agree with what you're saying. But Uriel isn't Jim either. I think we can each interpret it how we feel.

My general point is it doesn't really matter to the story, overmuch. There IS a multiverse in the Dresden Files, that implies that there has been enough Choices (however you define them) to create a multiverse.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Bad Alias on April 08, 2020, 02:17:57 AM: It would be a pretty hard turn in the narrative if Uriel was wrong or lying. Even with Choice being rare, billions of people over tens of thousands of years are going to cause a lot of branches.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: morriswalters on April 08, 2020, 02:31:31 AM: I'll give you something hand wavium. There are an infinite number of Universes. Those most important to you are the easiest ones to reach. So all the Harry Universes are clustered together. The Universes where Harry is less important are farther away. The same could be true for important moments. The point is that there is infinite room to do whatever you like. For time travel you can go back and do whatever you like. But it always spawns a new branch. But you can't stay in that branch and you can't change your own. I obviously flunked creative writing which is why Jim is published and why I will never be. :'(
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Yuillegan on April 08, 2020, 02:35:20 AM: Morris, I love it. Exactly what I am getting at. Maybe not perfect - but what is? Even Jim's stuff needs work (hence our debate).

Not such a hard turn if he was wrong. I don't think he could lie, if he is lying he probably isn't actually Uriel. My god that would be a twist, if Uriel was actually Satan in disguise lol.
Title: Re: Bloodlines
Post by: Mira on April 08, 2020, 03:01:04 PM: Quote
The only thing I can think of is that Harry did have to understand the Darkhallow to stop it. I don't know how much he had to understand. Without that, I can't say whether or not he knew enough to do it. It usually requires less information to know how to wreck something than it is to do it, so ...

He knows how it works, this is what he told Mavra at the end of Dead Beat

Quote
"I've read Kemmler's book. I know how the Darkhollow works."

If he knows how it works, if he has enough power he should be able to use it. Since he successfully foiled Cowl's attempt, he has some idea of how to stop it also. Then again does that apply to himself if he decided to use it?