ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on January 30, 2018, 04:50:03 PM
-
(I've included the vs. Circle in the topic so that we can talk about members of the Circle too.)
I think I found another member of the Grey Council.
"his Bigfoot client Strength of a River in His Shoulders,
"B is for Bigfoot"takes place between Fool Moon and Grave Peril. "I Was a Teenage Bigfoot" takes place circa Deadbeat. "Bigfoot on Campus" takes place between Turn Coat and Changes. Since Bigfoot is in the story up to Changes, I think it is a given he plays a part in Changes.
Side note: Bigfoot River's has a son named Irwin. (Side track, thinking of the name Corwin)
I think Bigfoot is a member of the Grey Council!!!
WOJ's:
#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung.
So we know 6 but don't know 4 of the 10 Gray Council members. The other 3 are Harry, McCoy, Vadderung. So, if Bigfoot is one of the 6 we know, then we need to find out 5 more some or most of which come from the White Council.
Hmm... Now that I'm thinking about it, anyone that seems like they have a alibi as to not being a member of the Grey Council as they were at Edinburgh because they were locked up, or sick, etc, doesn't necessarily have such a "ALIBI." In Amber, shadows of the person exist, so they can take the place of the 'original' person. We also know in DF, that people can be impersonated. So, when McCoy says that LTW is hold up sick in Edinburgh, I wouldn't necessarily take that as a strict restriction on his membership.
-
Interesting theory. My caution on accepting it is that the grey council should be made up of wizards. 100% wizards. After all, it is a renegade faction of wizards operating in secret against their own government.
I recognize that Odin was in the battle at Changes, but nothing but Harry's assumption indicated that the attackers were all grey council. To me it feels like some grey council members plus important allies.
The other caution is that Harry did not know anything physically distinctive about the wizards that came to his assistance. River Shoulders would have been visually obvious as he is much larger than a human.
-
I think a short acting polymorph spell could be used to further hide their identity. The person could still on top of that have shape-changing abilities besides that.
Interesting theory. My caution on accepting it is that the grey council should be made up of wizards. 100% wizards. After all, it is a renegade faction of wizards operating in secret against their own government.
I was thinking since the Black council appears to have Outsiders with them. Then, the Grey Council should have some Insiders with them. Odin would be one such 'Insider.' I get your sentiments though.
-
Interesting theory. My caution on accepting it is that the grey council should be made up of wizards. 100% wizards. After all, it is a renegade faction of wizards operating in secret against their own government.
I recognize that Odin was in the battle at Changes, but nothing but Harry's assumption indicated that the attackers were all grey council. To me it feels like some grey council members plus important allies.
I would counter that they are all likely 100% "Magic-users", which Id say would include Odin given that trained Merlin. But we know (per McCoy's description at their founding) that the GC ranks include "Some Wizards. Some Key Allies." which to me means that some of their ranks are specifically not mortal wizards.
The other caution is that Harry did not know anything physically distinctive about the wizards that came to his assistance. River Shoulders would have been visually obvious as he is much larger than a human.
This. Had any of the twelve at arrived been that discinct from the rest, I would have expected some offhand mention.
That being said, River Shoulders is a master at Water Magic and at concealment, both of which could solve that problem with trivial effort.
-
Gard is a Valkyrie, yes? One of Odin's upper echelon of warriors, and has helped/been helped by Dresden in the past. Odin could have asked or been asked by her to assist. Her skills would not have been unneeded.
-
Are there 4 members that might have been mentioned in passing but never appeared?
-
I don't think she has the magical chops like wizards do. She is more focused on runes, weapons, etc. She could be standing there activating rune upon rune on a weapon ( I believe the Grey Council was basically standing in place generally launching spells) toward the enemies.
-
Are there 4 members that might have been mentioned in passing but never appeared?
There are 4 people that we don't know about or haven't been 'formally introduced.'
#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung.
-
Didn't he say about the same thing about Jade Court representatives? In a roundabout way, that not only are they out there but we've already seen one?
-
I was taking "formally introduced" to imply that an appearance has been made; while a passing mention is less formal.
-
Of course, a named character vs background NPC. Named things have power after all.
-
My main issue is, as was said, River Shoulders would be a noticeable physical figure. Now, he could have been shape changed, but why, other than to hide his identity from Harry, the only person who would know of their connection?
Also, he's not really shown up much as a character in the main series, so I don't really think Jim would throw a character we've only met in short stories into such a role in the main books.
Given that the Circle/Black Council is suggested to include more than just strictly mortal wizards (Probably a denarian, probably some vampires) it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to include other flavors of supernatural forces on the Grey as well.
I wouldn't expect to see Gard as one of the 13 though, either. I don't see anything that she brings to the table that Odin doesn't, just more of the same, and having a subordinate like that basically gives Odin 2 votes rather than 1 for any kind of democracy they do.
Luccio and/or Ramirez would also be good candidates, I would think. Only question is whether or not they'd be able to slip away and make it to the fight.
Also, someone with the books handy can probably double check me, but Lea and the Knights are very definitively out of the running, yes? Already there when the rest of them showed up to make 13.
-
Harry was a Knight. Lea there. Oh I see what your saying.
I don't know that 'Fix' would be there. I think it would be more likely that Eldest Gruff was.
-
Of the Cross, I meant. My mistake.
-
Yeah, all three swords were there. Murphy, Susan, and Sanya.
Summer should be represented I feel in teh Grey Council. I think Eldest Gruff would be a good candidate for the Grey Council. He had killed a few members of the Senior Council before.
Now, he could have been shape changed, but why, other than to hide his identity from Harry, the only person who would know of their connection?
I think the 12 would want to remain generically similar in shape. They aren't just hiding their identity from Harry.
-
Yeah, all three swords were there. Murphy, Susan, and Sanya.
Summer should be represented I feel in teh Grey Council. I think Eldest Gruff would be a good candidate for the Grey Council. He had killed a few members of the Senior Council before.
Now, he could have been shape changed, but why, other than to hide his identity from Harry, the only person who would know of their connection?
I have serious doubts on whether Gruff would join such a group and potentially split his loyalties (extra dangerous for Fae, given their oath/Lie rules). And if it's McCoy doing the recruiting then carrying around the trophies of your Wizards Killed (whom he potentially knew) is not really going to be a point in his favor; a mark of power sure, but it doesnt put him in the "Key Allies" category either. Now, if Vadderung had input into the membership, he might have recruited Gruff or even the Erlking. But with McCoy making the call I see at least as many thing against as for on the Gruff, even assuming he'd be willing.
Also, while Vadderung might have some mysterious reason to balance the team along cosmic lines with summer/winter etc, but McCoy seems to me to be taking a much more practical military/political stance.
I think the 12 would want to remain generically similar in shape. They aren't just hiding their identity from Harry.
Theoretically they shouldnt have actually been hiding it from Harry; he'd just missed the meeting (for what they apparently decided was good reason) where they were supposed to reveal themselves to each other.
-
I meant they'd need to hide their identities from non grey council. If you have some grossly apparent outlier, that gives an additional way ftor someone to guess as to the membership of the group.
-
I meant they'd need to hide their identities from non grey council. If you have some grossly apparent outlier, that gives an additional way ftor someone to guess as to the membership of the group.
Sorry, my bad. I got that, I was only challenging the idea that the GC members would be hiding their ID's from Harry.
-
As for Eldest Gruff i was under the impression that hes sorta summers version of the leansidshe and is only so powerful because he totally loyal to Titania. Its been established that Titania refuses to help harry in any way even when Apocalypse is the result. of the summer Fae the EarlKing is the only guy id see joining he is mostly free to act as he sees fit , he may be brutal and semi evil but he definably wouldn't want the outsiders to destroy the world. Odin has been in wild hunts with him for at least 1000 years so odin could have vouched for him.
as for Ramirez to join the Grey Council requires extreme trust that your not a traitor or infected and hes only really been active as a wizard for a decade or so which isn't nearly enough time to build up that trust.
Lucio seems right.
id say Klaus the toymaker is a good guess for those not introduced only because readers have wanted to know more about him for ages so it would make scene for Jim to give him a real role in the books and that seems like a good way to write him into the books.
Bigfoot seems wrong to me but i don't have any strong reasons. Ebenezer seems to have a distrust of most non humans and if he was there i doubt he would want to take on the red king and his lords in a gimped half size form for almost no reason, thats the kinda fight you bring your A game too.
if Lucio is in Chandler is a good option because Lucio seems to trust him completely and may have a good reason for that trust that we don't know about that could convince Ebeneezer to add him
Also id say the gatekeeper is a near certainty. We can assume Ebeneezer knows of his job at the outer gates and thats about close to 100% proof as you can get that hes clean as he could have let the outsiders in to destroy the world long ago.
as for others id look for wizards that have been active for at least 100 years or some other reason for complete trust as with dresden
guys like that old guard warden bjorn
-
I have some nitpicks, please humor me:
As for Eldest Gruff i was under the impression that hes sorta summers version of the leansidshe and is only so powerful because he totally loyal to Titania.
She is his "counterpart" only in the sense that they are both very powerful and very close to their respective queens. They are wildly different in most ways and not any sort of literal Balance to each other (not like teh Knights or ladies or whatever). The biggest difference to my mind being that we have it confirmed that Gruff (as an "Eldest") is a Mantled immortal, while Lea is not.
Its been established that Titania refuses to help harry in any way even when Apocalypse is the result.
Not really, and this is a very important distinction. She refused to get involved for a bunch of reasons that were mostly about Harry and Aurora. But her lack of action didnt actually threaten an Apocalypse, at least not how Harry feared it did, because Mab herself was not actually Crazy. But Titiania's whole Purpose is still to guard against that very thing, and she did not actually Refuse that Duty. Doing so, even being capable, would require and indicate an Nemfection or similar outside Taint.
Ok, Nitpicks done. Thanks for humoring me.
as for Ramirez to join the Grey Council requires extreme trust that your not a traitor or infected and hes only really been active as a wizard for a decade or so which isn't nearly enough time to build up that trust.
I generally agree with this, but as a mark in his favor Carlos was the only Warden that McCoy trusted to help investigate Peabody's rooms during that highly charged political time.
if Lucio is in Chandler is a good option because Lucio seems to trust him completely and may have a good reason for that trust that we don't know about that could convince Ebeneezer to add him
Hmmm, maaaaybe? All indications in the books seemed to be that She trusted the crap out of him personally. But the WOJ on him is that part of it for him is that they dont entirely trust him because his magic involves Temporal Manipulation, which makes them nervous. The WOJ said he's a Warden so they can keep an eye on him.
Also id say the gatekeeper is a near certainty. We can assume Ebeneezer knows of his job at the outer gates and thats about close to 100% proof as you can get that hes clean as he could have let the outsiders in to destroy the world long ago.
I really dont think so. McCoy very clearly didnt trust him as of PG, said so himself very directly. But he also said that it was a recent (wartime) development, so even if it wasnt just Peabody pushing him to distrust it might be something he's gotten over in the time since. Especially given how often Rashid has kicked in on Harry's side, which I believe carries a lot of weight with Eb.
-
Okay so I'm a bit confused and want some clarification ...
There are 13 members of the Grey council.
#136 “I am also highly intrigued by the Gray Council showing up as 12 in number.”
Thirteen, actually: Harry was already there.
“So we found out who 2 of them were, i’d like to know how many of the rest we already know and how many of them haven’t been formally introduced to us yet.”
Hang on, counting… You already know six of the folks who showed up at Chichen Itza, excluding McCoy and Vadderung.
13 - Harry
12 - Ebenezer
11 - Odin/Vadderung
10 - We've met/seen but don't know
09 - We've met/seen but don't know
08 - We've met/seen but don't know
07 - We've met/seen but don't know
06 - We've met/seen but don't know
05 - We've met/seen but don't know
04 - Have not met
03 - Have not met
02 - Have not met
01 - Have not met
Do I have the slots correct? And we're trying to figure out the "We've met/seen but don't know" category, right?
-
I think your listing seems right. As for the rest, we are just tossing theories and ideas at the wall to see what sticks. That is, until Butcher changes the wall. LOL
-
Yep. You have it right. I wish I had done that from the beginning. I just did it in my head.
-
hmm i should go look up what ebineezer said in pg i guess.
I was also going off how the gatekeeper was one of the only ones to know Maggie la fey was EB's daughter and watched out for her on EB's behalf. it seems he is doing the same thing for Dresden, either on his own or on EB's request. He often seems to pop up and give Dresden just enough help to succeed.
also for those who guess at senior council members, i feel like the merlin cant be in the grey council and no more than 3 senior council members total (not a majority vote)
otherwise the extreme secrecy and worry that they would be executed as traitors wouldn't make sense. They would just be a top secret classified group doing covert actions which is relatively common during any war. thats why i think EB LtW and the gatekeeper as the most likely senior council members.
is there a real reason most dont seem to include LtW in their guesses?
-
It is because Eb says LTW was layed up sick in Edinburgh.
I've come to believe that we really ought not use people having 'alibi' as a reason to strictly cross them off as their are people that can impersonate them. Also, there are there other self in these parallel worlds that can stand in for them.
For LTW to be truly on the Grey Council, and to have used a 'shadowself' laid up in Edinburgh, it would mean that Eb doesn't trust Harry with this information. Or, that he doesn't trust conveying this information over magical messaging.
In Amber series, the 'magical messaging' can get wiretapped. So, Eb may be aware of this in part, and he has to lie to Harry during these conversations to keep the wiretappers uncertain. It also would give more meaning for the group to meet in person as opposed to conversing long distances.
-
Green lightning split the sky, erupting with such a burst of thunder that the ground shook. Instead of fading, though, the thunder grew
louder as more and more strokes of lightning flared out from the area of sky where Lea’s gem had exploded into light.
Then a sheet of a dozen separate green bolts of lightning fell all at the same time onto the ground of the ball court twenty yards away,
blowing smoking craters in the ground.
It took my dazzled eyes a few seconds to recover from that, and when they did, my heart almost stopped.
Standing on the ball court were twelve figures.
Twelve people in shapeless grey robes. Grey cloaks. Grey hoods.
And every single one of them held a wizard’s staff in one hand.
The Grey Council.
The Grey Council!
The nearest figure was considerably shorter than me and stout, but he stood with his feet planted as if he intended to move the world.
He lifted his staff, smote it on the ground, then boomed, “Remember Archangel!” He spoke a single, resonating word as he thrust the tip
of the implement at the Red King and the Lords of Outer Night.
Here is the description from Changes. So no help there. LOL
-
Twelve people in shapeless grey robes. Grey cloaks. Grey hoods.
This 'shapeless' reads to me as the cloaks were deliberately hiding their identifying features.
-
I did post this in another thread, but still seems relevant here as well. Let's call one of the GC as a member of the Denarius. We, of course, don't know the extent of the Denarius' plans or even all of their enemies. Who's to say they didn't have a reason to get back at the Red Court? And of course the theory I floated in the other thread.
-
Well wojl says that Harry could have called upon LaSalle and the fallen for help in changes. Since jim mentioned that, it is consistent for the fallen to be largely opposed to RCV.
-
well I agree but for a different reason. Yes, he has said, it was Mab, Lash, or kemmler. But only as far as the options that had the power to help him, not because those were the ones that had beef with RCV.
-
And while granted, Nic does lie, he's also said that killing off the Red Court is on his to-do list, as they are an obstacle to his ultimate goals.
-
Thanks Palpatine, I mean peregrine.
-
...I had forgotten that. And after that is checked off, he calls in a favor from Mab that was possibly blocked before by RCV? Maybe the break-in was also on this check list? That would suck and be completely par for the course if Harry was inadvertently helping the nickelheads achieve their goals. the Charlie Brown of urban fantasy indeed..
-
I don't think that the Red Court as such was specifically blocking him from any step of his master plan, so much as they were another top level predator and he didn't want the competition, that as long as they were around, he wouldn't have complete dominance.
-
I would counter that they are all likely 100% "Magic-users", which Id say would include Odin given that trained Merlin. But we know (per McCoy's description at their founding) that the GC ranks include "Some Wizards. Some Key Allies." which to me means that some of their ranks are specifically not mortal wizards.
This. Had any of the twelve at arrived been that discinct from the rest, I would have expected some offhand mention.
That being said, River Shoulders is a master at Water Magic and at concealment, both of which could solve that problem with trivial effort.
Isn't water magic what powers some of Warden Ramirez' spells? If my memory is correct about Carlos, that could mean that River Shoulders could be more than just a bruiser, he might be able to sling some serious combat spells, or spells that could be adapted for that purpose. It's been awhile since I read the Bigfoot stories so I don't remember what he could do besides the concealment thing.
-
Isn't water magic what powers some of Warden Ramirez' spells? If my memory is correct about Carlos, that could mean that River Shoulders could be more than just a bruiser, he might be able to sling some serious combat spells, or spells that could be adapted for that purpose. It's been awhile since I read the Bigfoot stories so I don't remember what he could do besides the concealment thing.
Both Water Magic, but different sub-schools. But certainly in the realm of possibility, as is Shapeshifting and a decent bit of Healing Magic (all water magics).
In the shorts he could do Water magic in that same innate way that the Genoskwa did Earth Magic. He was able to more or less Turn Off the active magical effects in the area, spells and Wampire abilities alike. Harry described it by saying If magic were throwing rocks into a lake to get ripple effects, what Shoulders did was like waving a hand and making the lake go instantly still again. Magic on another level entirely.
-
If a certain dragon (I cant remember his name and dont feel like looking it up) was given a Trojan horse item like lea and survived I could see him convinced to join the grey council
-
If a certain dragon (I cant remember his name and dont feel like looking it up) was given a Trojan horse item like lea and survived I could see him convinced to join the grey council
Ferrovax. Assuming he wasnt caught by the trap, of course. Lea needed to get outside help to escape it, which may or may not have been an option for Ferro. Fwiw, the gift itself wasnt particularly unique: it was several million dollars of gold and gems.
-
I like the idea of Chandler and would like to see more of him. I'm not sure he's a good fit for the Grey Council; his time manipulation stuff is really dicey, and if he's caught fraternizing with the likes of Ebenezer, suspicion will be extremely heavy. Aside from that, he's already sympathetic to Doing Things the Right Way, but is Too Valuable to Risk Losing; note that he was pretty much the only Warden on his feet by the end of Changes, and we have no idea how he managed that.
To clarify, I think he's a Grey Council asset, and an ally who can be counted on, but not a member. It's one of those Operational Security things. He can gather and pass information, but actually showing up for an unsanctioned fight is a different story. That said, I'd love it if I was wrong, mostly because I Like His Abuse of Capitalization.
Luccio is a reasonable bet—but only became a candidate for this type of thing post body-switch. I think it's altered her perspective a lot. I know the Grey Council post-dates that, but I think it's an important distinction.
Ramirez is on it. I'm willing to bet a whole lot on that. Though I think Harry would've noticed his green disintegration rays being thrown around.
I desperately want Klaus the Toymaker. He's too freaking awesome.
I don't think the Gatekeeper has time to be on the Grey Council. Maybe in an advise-and-consent capacity.
Maybe Wild Bill? The mad Texan certainly sounds capable, and Harry trusts him to an extent.
Eb trusts Listens-to-Wind and Martha Liberty. Martha in particular is valuable; she's an information-gatherer. We've seen a little of what Listens-to-Wind can do, but not nearly what he's really capable of, I suspect. Not sure he was there at Chichen Itza, but I'd bet you money that Martha provided the coordinates for the lightning-arrival (think about how difficult it would have to be to travel like that without landing on anything).
I think we can eliminate Ancient Mai. She's...too hostile to Harry and Ebenezer. Loyal (to the Council), scary, but definitely not sympathetic enough to break tradition. Same with Arthur Langtry.
As for non-wizard allies:
I'd like it if River Shoulders was involved, but my sense of his characterization is that he's a neutral third-party. He doesn't want to be involved; he just wants to live quietly in peace.
I also don't think the Fae are in on it (though alternate masks, like Vadderung, are obviously possible) simply because they can't lie about it, which makes them a really dumb admission to a secret society. The Erlking isn't on it, but his other mask, Hades, might be (just kidding, that's 100% speculation and I don't have anything at all to back that up; it mostly just appeals to my sense of symmetry for Kringle's counterpart to similarly have a god persona, Hades had a similar reaction to Harry as the Erlking ("you're kinda pissing me off, but I have a certain amount of respect for the size and weight of your cajones"), and I also think it would be cool).
There is also very little chance of Lara being involved; Eb was ready to rip her head off, literally, one book prior. He really, really hates White Court Vampires, and the Raiths in particular; see Margaret's history for reasons why.
Eldest Gruff is interesting, but I still don't think he's involved. He can't lie, he's really tiny, and I think Eb has had it up to here with the Fae in general.
I don't think the Archive can be part of something like the Grey Council. I think it goes against her programming. Though Harry's influence might've changed that. And Eb certainly doesn't trust Kincaid enough.
Denarians are a risky proposition, and while they might provide firepower and intelligence, they're not worth the inevitable betrayal.
I think Marcone might be in on it to some degree. He keeps his word pretty well, and has access to vanilla resources Eb can't really get anywhere else. Plus he has a built-in handler with Harry if it comes down to it. He wasn't at Chicken Pizza, but I think he might be one of those non-combatant allies—or, rather, he provides intel and resources in exchange for things.
How about Eb's contact among the Kenku? Evidently, they owed him enough of a favor to commit hundreds of fighters for a single engagement. That's some serious debt, which implies a level trust, to me. And it would certainly have to be someone relatively high on the totem pole, as they'd need enough pull among the Kenku to provide that much support.
I doubt Ferrovax is involved; Jim's statements about dragons indicate that if one of them got in on things, it wouldn't just be game-changing, it'd be full on game-ending; they're on a scale of power so vast that they need to be measured with a Richter scale (literally—they shift continents).
Beyond that, I don't really know. It's one of the things I really, really want to learn more about in Peace Talks. Though I guess they'll view Harry's Winter Knighthood as a security risk now.
-
I doubt Ferrovax is involved; Jim's statements about dragons indicate that if one of them got in on things, it wouldn't just be game-changing, it'd be full on game-ending; they're on a scale of power so vast that they need to be measured with a Richter scale (literally—they shift continents).
I dont think he'd be any less likely than Vadderung, at least based on their Power measure. By Personality I certainly expect he's far less likely to Care enough to get involved. That being said, I would not doubt that he could be either Bought (because Dragons love riches) or that he could be Insulted enough (maybe via a failed Nemfection attempt) to Get Involved.
-
The problem I see is Ferrovax would be restricted from placing his full form upon the Earth, as that would warp reality etc. I'm assuming he could place a miniFerro to participate in things.
-
The problem I see is Ferrovax would be restricted from placing his full form upon the Earth, as that would warp reality etc. I'm assuming he could place a miniFerro to participate in things.
Even what he was bringing to bear in GP would likely outclass most mortal practitioners; he may not be able to maintain that form in the mortal realm indefinitely, but if it wasnt too difficult to attend the party of a relatively minor Red Court noble, then the sort of battles we are talking about should be too much worse (relative to the actual Power used, I suppose). As I understand the reality Warping effects there is a matter of exposure-time before the stresses overload reality. Even the Mothers and multiple Archangels (if you could Michael delivering a sword) have come to the Mortal world for short periods.
Separately, Ive been wondering what that warping woudl actually look like. I think there is a reasonable chance it would be just a larger version of the warping that happened around Shagnasty
-
I'll concede that it may be technically possible for Ferrovax to be involved, though I'd argue that Vadderung doesn't break the world by moving around in it. Odin is more on the level of the Erlking at this point, and probably not an equal to Mab; she can walk around as much as she wants without trouble (though it does get a bit chillier). I think Ferrovax's power is exponentially higher, or otherwise functions in sufficiently differently that a warp effect takes place.
Even what he was bringing to bear in GP would likely outclass most mortal practitioners; he may not be able to maintain that form in the mortal realm indefinitely, but if it wasnt too difficult to attend the party of a relatively minor Red Court noble, then the sort of battles we are talking about should be too much worse (relative to the actual Power used, I suppose). As I understand the reality Warping effects there is a matter of exposure-time before the stresses overload reality. Even the Mothers and multiple Archangels (if you could Michael delivering a sword) have come to the Mortal world for short periods.
I don't recall the Mothers coming to the mortal world; did that happen and I forgot it? Or was it in one of the short stories I haven't read yet?
And Uriel showing up at Michael's house partially froze time. No idea what the Janitor Disguise did elsewhere, if anything.
Separately, Ive been wondering what that warping woudl actually look like. I think there is a reasonable chance it would be just a larger version of the warping that happened around Shagnasty
Yeah, I kinda want to see that. Jim has teased a full Dragon book before the end (along with a Kaiju one; I'm anticipating them being the same book), so I expect we'll see what happens when someone accidentally breaks reality.
-
I'll concede that it may be technically possible for Ferrovax to be involved, though I'd argue that Vadderung doesn't break the world by moving around in it. Odin is more on the level of the Erlking at this point, and probably not an equal to Mab; she can walk around as much as she wants without trouble (though it does get a bit chillier). I think Ferrovax's power is exponentially higher, or otherwise functions in sufficiently differently that a warp effect takes place.
Hard to say on the other relative Power levels (particularly Vadderung who's said to be a special case in a bunch of ways) but at the very least we know he can walk the mortal world for an evening without causing any collateral damage.
I don't recall the Mothers coming to the mortal world; did that happen and I forgot it? Or was it in one of the short stories I haven't read yet?
The only instance of them being fully in the mortal world is when Harry summoned Mother Winter and (accidentally) forced her to come get him, and she wasnt there long (or fully, I suspect). Other than that they were able to both be present during the Battle in SK, which was some sort of border-zone of the NN and not truely the Mortal world
-
I've changed the title of the thread to include the Circle so feel free to also try to figure out the membership of the Circle.
I swallowed. Cowl. It had been Cowl. I'd heard the hatred and venom in his voice, the familiarity—and the overwhelming power of his magic had been unmistakable. He'd survived the Darkhallow. He was working with this "Circle," who were almost certainly the Black Council, and there was some kind of larger mischief afoot inChicago than I had suspected.
So far with respect to the Circle, I'm guessing that these may be/have been considered part of the Circle:
Cowl, Maeve, Fomor, RCV King, Lord Raith...
-
Maggie Sr.?
-
Yeah. Maggie Sr. would definitely be on that list at least at one time. (Circle)
She became subordinate to Lord Raith though.
-
Was Peabody forgotten, or are there theories of him being something else?
On the RCV King, I kinda suspect Ariananna was the conniving one that allied with outside forces to climb the Pyramid. The RCV King was already on the top of his chosen Hill, and wasnt practical enough to recognize threats insurmountable enough to need allies.
-
I got the impression that it was the RCV King that was on the Circle and not Arianna. Or maybe it was the RCV King that was dealing with the Outsiders and Arianna was opposed to it. In any event, I believe Arianna and Ortega were 'conservatives' in the RCV court. The RCV King was reaching out to new allies, whether that was the Circle or Outsiders I do not know. The King made some comment about Arianna not changing with the times.
-
There's also a bit of confusion over whether or not the Circle that the Red Court King is involved in is The Circle that is also what Harry calls the Black Council, or just the Red Court's inner circle.
-
Yep. I think they were different things. The eebs were referring to something where they needed to be of the first Mayan to get entry into the circle. I doubt this is the black circle bit rather something along the lines of the Lord's of outer night or some such level among rcv hierarchy.