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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Beldon on October 14, 2021, 01:48:15 PM
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It had long been speculated that Marcone had the coin. Mab even made a point to look at Marcone during the conversation about what weapons could hurt Ethniu. One thought that I have had is what if Marcone only took up the coin for the fight. If he had however been holding the coin in reserve for such a time it would be in character for him. He has the willpower to talk to and use an imprint just as harry did, without taking up the coin. There is no reason he couldn't have gained the necessary knowledge from Namshiel prior to picking up the coin. As a side note, it is also possible for the fallen to take direct action so long as their host "wills" it, meaning Marcone would not have to have the magical skills himself to use them. Just as Butters was using BOB to power artifacts the fallen could be used to fuel Marcone's magic.
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You are saying that Marcone allowed the Shadow Namshiel in but didn’t fully take up the coin until the battle?
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I'm sure Marcone did crazy amount of research before accepting the coin especially with his resources
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I'm sure Marcone did crazy amount of research before accepting the coin especially with his resources
He was in the Vatican during Ghost Story for some reason.
For Marcone to resist Ethniu's aura in PT, I wonder if he required full Namshiel or just Namshiel's shadow. At the moment, I'm leaning towards full Namshiel.
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100% Full his body changed like when the fallen possess
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It had long been speculated that Marcone had the coin. Mab even made a point to look at Marcone during the conversation about what weapons could hurt Ethniu. One thought that I have had is what if Marcone only took up the coin for the fight. If he had however been holding the coin in reserve for such a time it would be in character for him. He has the willpower to talk to and use an imprint just as harry did, without taking up the coin. There is no reason he couldn't have gained the necessary knowledge from Namshiel prior to picking up the coin. As a side note, it is also possible for the fallen to take direct action so long as their host "wills" it, meaning Marcone would not have to have the magical skills himself to use them. Just as Butters was using BOB to power artifacts the fallen could be used to fuel Marcone's magic.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Marcone was doing really advanced magic. I'm not sure he could have if he just allowed the Coin in. I think he had the Coin for a while.
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Groinkick,
Why? basically, he would just have to take a backseat to Namshiel. If Namshiel knows how to do something then he is capable of doing it so long as his host wills it so. Thus Marcone need not have the ability or knowledge to do something. Just think it and Namshiel does it. We know from interactions with Lashiel and Anduriel that they can do things through hosts without the host actively being a participant. Granted Marcone is not one to merely take a backseat to anyone.
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Groinkick,
Why? basically, he would just have to take a backseat to Namshiel. If Namshiel knows how to do something then he is capable of doing it so long as his host wills it so. Thus Marcone need not have the ability or knowledge to do something. Just think it and Namshiel does it. We know from interactions with Lashiel and Anduriel that they can do things through hosts without the host actively being a participant. Granted Marcone is not one to merely take a backseat to anyone.
I just think that he worked really well with Namshiel. Something I don't know would have happened if it was their first joining.
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Marcone will have taken up the shadow and got it to show him its worth, but probably waited years to take up the coin.
The host can influence the shadow as Harry/Lash proved. Harry was the only previous host not to quickly have the coin fully taken up and the shadow rejoin with the Angel. This rejoining never happened with Harry, due to Lash’s sacrifice, but if Marcone had the Coin for years he was working on the Namshiel all that time with his considerable will. When he finally took it up Namshiel will have had a much changed shadow returned to him, changing him in a way which has not previously occurred, and one not expected
Marcone deliberately and purposefully corrupted a Fallen Angel as an exercise of Free Will. I think he has been successful.
If someone like Michael or Father Forthill took up a shadow and held it for years and then took up the Coin could this lead to a redemption of the Denarian? The ultimate purpose of the Knights of the Sword is to redeem those who who have taken up the coin, like Sanya. What is they can redeem via the shadows the Angel?
The next host for the shadow of Anduriel (Master of Shadows)will be Michael, when he persuades Nicky, sans his tie to drop his coin. That is a reason to for Jim keep Michael alive.his purpose is NOT complete.
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I played an RPG character who was using Namshiels coin. The way I played it was that Namshiel and my character had specific and extensive contracts limiting his power over my characters Free Will.
Kinda like Butters did with Bob.
Marcone knows and loves contracts so I can see him using similar methods.
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Marcone will have taken up the shadow and got it to show him its worth, but probably waited years to take up the coin.
I was under the impression that only a wizard can carry around the shadow of a Coin. A mortal who gives up a Coin will no longer have a connection to it. Harry who had buried it, and wanted it to go away, was still connected to it. I thought Michael said something about it to Harry, and how he would eventually be forced to kill Harry, when Harry gave in and accepted it.
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Marcone will have taken up the shadow and got it to show him its worth, but probably waited years to take up the coin.
The host can influence the shadow as Harry/Lash proved. Harry was the only previous host not to quickly have the coin fully taken up and the shadow rejoin with the Angel. This rejoining never happened with Harry, due to Lash’s sacrifice, but if Marcone had the Coin for years he was working on the Namshiel all that time with his considerable will. When he finally took it up Namshiel will have had a much changed shadow returned to him, changing him in a way which has not previously occurred, and one not expected
Marcone deliberately and purposefully corrupted a Fallen Angel as an exercise of Free Will. I think he has been successful.
If someone like Michael or Father Forthill took up a shadow and held it for years and then took up the Coin could this lead to a redemption of the Denarian? The ultimate purpose of the Knights of the Sword is to redeem those who who have taken up the coin, like Sanya. What is they can redeem via the shadows the Angel?
The next host for the shadow of Anduriel (Master of Shadows)will be Michael, when he persuades Nicky, sans his tie to drop his coin. That is a reason to for Jim keep Michael alive.his purpose is NOT complete.
What makes you think that changing the shadow of a Fallen changes the Fallen themselves? Even if they rejoin later instead of being simply overwritten, the metaphysical weight of a Fallen is much much bigger than the weight of their shadow. It's not going to redeem them in any appreciable way.
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We don’t know because the one example prior to this ended with the shadow giving up it existence.
At the very least the shadow Namshiel would have conveyed the information it had ascertained from Marcone back to Namshiel. We know this Namshiel speaks differently to that in SF, so we can posit some change. How extensive? We don’t know. For all we know Marcone has struck a deal to remove Nicky/ Anduriel as leaders of the Denarians, and that is consistent with SG. In retrospect it is clear that SG was as much a revenge ploy by Namshiel as Marcone, the loss of the squires and Deidre undermining Nicky’s leadership within the Denarians as much as how much the world views Nick’s defeat at Marcone’s hands.
It did something.
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I was under the impression that only a wizard can carry around the shadow of a Coin. A mortal who gives up a Coin will no longer have a connection to it. Harry who had buried it, and wanted it to go away, was still connected to it. I thought Michael said something about it to Harry, and how he would eventually be forced to kill Harry, when Harry gave in and accepted it.
Because to their knowledge, nobody had ever resisted the temptation of a fallen. Harry being who he is was just stubborn enough to resist the call of the fallen. To the church's knowledge, harry is the first to resist the temptation. Though had Harry not had the wonderful conversation about how Lasciell's shadow was composed of Harry's fungible material it is uncertain if she would have changed... she resisted right up to the end.
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Everyone is underestimating the fallen. Think of Mr Sunshine in a coin and remember how everyone is a insect comparatively including Mab.
Only angel ever seen emotionally moved is Mr. Sunshine. But that's when Michael called him his friend.
Denarius on the other hand are all emotional in negative aspect. Or obsessive-compulsive. Except for Nicodemus slayed his own daughter
As interesting as Marcone is I don't think he's going to change Thorne. I only think that they could have the same goal for a limited amount of time
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Because to their knowledge, nobody had ever resisted the temptation of a fallen. Harry being who he is was just stubborn enough to resist the call of the fallen. To the church's knowledge, harry is the first to resist the temptation. Though had Harry not had the wonderful conversation about how Lasciell's shadow was composed of Harry's fungible material it is uncertain if she would have changed... she resisted right up to the end.
So did he, he can thank Butters for telling him that Sheila wasn't there. That is when Harry realized that Lasciel's shadow was in his head, and most likely because he is a star born, he has the brain chemistry that can both fight her influence and use her talents at the same time, ultimately causing her to fall in love with him. Unless Marcone is also star born, I doubt this is the case. Marcone is powerful enough in his own right as a vanilla human mob boss for Namshiel to take full advantage of, and Marcone gets all the supernatural power he has long lusted for in others, not since Nic and Andriel has there been a more perfect partnership between host and Fallen.
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Because to their knowledge, nobody had ever resisted the temptation of a fallen. Harry being who he is was just stubborn enough to resist the call of the fallen. To the church's knowledge, harry is the first to resist the temptation. Though had Harry not had the wonderful conversation about how Lasciell's shadow was composed of Harry's fungible material it is uncertain if she would have changed... she resisted right up to the end.
Sonja, a KoTC had given up a Coin. Others have given up a Coin.
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Sonja, a KoTC had given up a Coin. Others have given up a Coin.
Yes, and Harry never actually took up the coin.. However he is the first or one of the few that could resist taking up a coin once the shadow of it's Fallen had got into his or her head.
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yes to Michael's knowledge Harry is the only one to ever resist a fallen's shadow. Harry does remind him that the fallen eliminate the records whenever possible. There is no reason he would be the only one, just as he is likely not the only one to throw off the winter knight.
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yes to Michael's knowledge Harry is the only one to ever resist a fallen's shadow. Harry does remind him that the fallen eliminate the records whenever possible. There is no reason he would be the only one, just as he is likely not the only one to throw off the winter knight.
I always thought that the records were erased to cover up the fact that the Church has a poor record of keeping track of the coins. I think as far as Harry throwing off the shadow of Lasciel, Michael got that information from a higher angelic source. That is why Harry got Soul Fire, so even if he isn't the only one who successfully threw off a shadow, I bet it is so rare he just as well be the only one.
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As rare as hens teeth, something else Lacuna would be interested in.
Though technically Sue is an ancestor of the modern chicken, so the fossilised teeth from Sue’s Skull would do.
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I just think that he worked really well with Namshiel. Something I don't know would have happened if it was their first joining.
Plus, the fallen seem to need at least some degree of magical potential in the host to work through. Marcone didn't have much to start with - he needed "the magical equivalent of a nine volt battery" just to make a defensive circle in Even Hand work. He's pretty clearly got less innate in the tank than Butters. I don't think going from shadow to full Denarian on the spot would have been enough for Namshiel to work with - I suspect they've been working hand in glove on buffing his horsepower for some time.