"To ourpurposes now."
The very ground seemed to quiver, to let out an unthinkable low, deep,angry,growl.
Mab's eyes snapped to Demonreach. "I have his oath, ancient one.
What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."
"Damnit," I said tiredly. "Damnit."
And a voice---a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear,"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
Mab is telling Demonreach that she has a valid claim on Harry as her sworn knight. She wants it known that she has the right to make demands and train Harry as she chooses. But Harry is still under the idea that working for Mab will automatically change him into a warped and evil version of himself. That's caused by his ignorance and the despair that Lasciel inflicted upon him at his lowest point in Changes.
What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
Mab is taking advantage of Harry's despair and allows him to believe that he is fated to change. It will make him a more obedient knight. At no time did Mab say that Harry was going to become an evil version of himself, she just let him believe what he would.
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
Uriel's word's tell Harry that while Mab may indeed give him orders, he can still preserve himself as his own man. They give him hope to cancel the despair that Lasciel inflicted. Uriel's words point out the self-deception Harry was assuming, not an actual lie by Mab. Mab only becomes upset because Harry immediately becomes rebellious and give her conditions.
Since he became Winter Knight, Mab has never tried to influence Harry with mental magic. She's put him in optionless scenarios or given him difficult tasks and he has accomplished them as best he could in his own way. During Battle Ground she finally acknowledges that his independence makes him " a Knight worth the trouble", which is the closest she'll ever come to an apology and an expression of her respect for him. She still wants him to obey more readily but she now gives him a clear idea of what orders he has leeway on and why.
OTOH, maybe it's a matter of who she's speaking to. She was answering Demonreach -- maybe faeries are permitted to lie to such beings? It isn't "her fault" if Harry "just happens" to overhear her words... That's a very fae understanding, a very Mab maneuver. And, critically, you will notice that Demonreach does not argue or contradict Mab; Harry really is Mab's "to shape as [she] please(s)."
Mab (as we know) has never let "cannot tell a lie" stop her from deceiving people; not for a moment.And a deception is dishonest by any other name,is still a lie..
But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.
But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.
Uriel's words short-circuited Mab's deception. Crucially, the seven words did not begin "She lies..."
The "lies" were lies that Harry was telling himself -- of being helpless, of being hopeless. Harry had believed that Mab could change who he was; he was lying to himself.
Crucially, the seven words did not begin "She lies..."
The "lies" were lies that Harry was telling himself -- of being helpless, of being hopeless. Harry had believed that Mab could change who he was; he was lying to himself.
But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.They did, without them Mab would never have corrected Harry of his misconception, ever the good con-artist.
Uriel's words short-circuited Mab's deception.
Is deception the same from lying?
Lying differs from deception in two important respects. First, in order to lie, one must make a false statement. Deception does not require that one make a false statement or make any statement at all. True statements can be deceptive and some forms of deception do not involve making statements.
... Mab was the only one in the cave who said Harry was hers to shape any way she pleases ...Nope.
... and Harry believes her because he believes that the Fae cannot lie. And as we know a lie told often enough and loud enough will eventually be believed ...
... In other words, Mab is a dishonest bitch even if she cannot tell a lie.. ::)Well... yeah. She's Mab.
Nope.
Harry was lying too; lying to himself, there in the cave.
He had been lying to himself since before he decided to take up the WK-Mantle.
Harry believed that being the Winter Knight -- being Mab's WK -- was a one-way ticket to becoming a monster.
If he hadn't believed it, he wouldn't have arranged his own death: he was protecting his friends from the monster he "knew" he would become.
That wasn't even Lasciel's lie, that was all Harry. Lasciel just pushed him into accepting a plan that called for him to explicitly kill himself, that he deserved it because "it's all your fault, Harry."
That's what Harry believed from before the cave, before Ghost Story; from at least as far back as Changes; my guess is that seeing Lloyd Slate atop Arctis Tor may have been the beginning of that? As you say, he had repeated it in his own head -- "not becoming a monster" -- so often, he believed it. It was how he kept himself from embracing Lasciel fully, how he kept himself out of Mab's clutches for so long.
Mab simply said something that Harry -- who already thought this -- never examined more-deeply to look for hidden implications & faerie deceptions. Why look for deception in something you already know is true??!?
Well... yeah. She's Mab.
Say that to her face and
(click to show/hide)
she'd likely take it as a complement
.
OTOH, call her a lying bitch and
(click to show/hide)
she's liable to freeze your eyeballs
.
Kringle straightened, and his fierce smile became somehow satisfied.
"Aye?" like to live dangerously do you?" He leaned a little closer and lowered his voice. "Never let her make you cringe---but never challenge her pride wizard. I don't know exactly what passed between you, but I suspect that if it had been witnessed by another, she would break you to pieces. I've seen it before. Terrible pride in that creature. She will never bend it."
... Actually, if Harry had been telling himself that he could control the mantel and that Mab wouldn't do her best to turn him into her monster, he would have been lying to himself. Yes, he has found a way to physically control it, but the struggle remains, it doesn't help that Mab sends him mixed signals, on one hand she says at last a knight worthy of the mantle, but at the same time she also wants to shape him the way that she wants ...
It's not a simple either/or.
Mab may crush Harry's resistance. Harry may resist indefinitely.
Both are true possibilities; neither is guaranteed.
The thing is: Mab has to try to crush Harry... both because she is Mab & that's who she is & how she rolls; but also because she knows the pressures coming to bear on Harry -- that if they hit him unprepared they are likely to break him.
Just as her first murder-attempt (during his recuperation) was milder than the last... she has been training him, strengthening him.
None of that is the point however, Mab can crush away all she wants, but in the end Harry is still his own man with his own free will.. Her saying different was a lie as Uriel pointed out.
But that's the point you refuse to see. Mab never said that Harry had lost his free will, she said she was free to shape him and Harry, in his despair, had convinced himself he couldn't resist. Uriel's words didn't correct a lie by Mab, but Harry's own self-deception. Yes Mab was being deceptive as hell, but she wasn't technically lying.
"I have his oath, ancient one.
What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."In effect, no she cannot do that..
The Fae cannot tell a direct lie but have taken deceptive speech to a high artform. It's one of their greatest pleasures and a mark of status among them. And Mab, as their Queen, stands at the pinnacle. That's why Mab was so pleased with Harry's attempted suicide. By outwitting her (because she needed Bonnie and Demonreach's aid to counter him), he raised his status in her eyes. It forced her to up her game and that competitive streak is one of the greatest drives of Winter. She didn't even punish him for it because it was a private interaction.You're wrong there, Mab in fact was very displeased with Harry's attempt, because he was trying to get out of their bargain.. No, she didn't punish him because Uriel called her out on her lie, and Harry told her unless she wanted a mediocre Knight, to let him be himself.. Mab not wanting to look bad, acted pleased, whether she really was or not isn't known yet.
Mab believes completely that she can mold Harry into what she wants him to be as Knight. That's not a lie, because she believes it, but it's still not the complete truth of the matter. Harry can, and does, resist Mab's attempt to reshape him into an emotionless extension of Mab's will... though so far, it's working out fairly well for both of them. Mab's fairly pleased that Harry's growing in both power and political savvy. Maybe she sees that as part of the shaping process? >shrug<
So when Uriel says "Lies," IMHO he wasn't referring to Mab at all, but Lasciel. It would have helped us out if he'd been a lot more specific, but he only had 7 words... ;) ;D ::)
"Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."
Not exactly true, just because you believe something doesn't make it true.
Lies, Mab cannot change who you are.
Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.
If he didn't mean Mab, he wouldn't have said, Mab.
If he didn't mean Mab, he wouldn't have said, Mab.
This is a very interesting thread, and thanks Mira for the original post.
I am more or less in agreement with Vincentric, and with some things other people said, but I thought something else.
Mab says:
"He is mine to shape as I please"
That is important for me. She did not say "I can shape Harry in any thing one can imagine" or "I can shape Harry in anything against his will". She said she could shape him as she pleased. So, if she will never be pleased changing who Harry really truly was, there is no conflict. She can shape Harry in a better version of himself, I guess, but not changing him. For example. He won't stop caring for her humanity, that who he is, but perhaps he learns how to be subtler instead of explosive. The point for me is what Uriel means withe "who you are". I think he means Harry's core, not the details.
And in my opinion, Vin is right, he is telling Harry that what HE was thinking were lies, not Mab's words but Harry's interpretation of them.
"She might lean on you pretty hard. Try to put you in a box you don't want to be in. But don't let her. She can't take away your will. Even if she can make it seem that way." He sighed again, but there was bedrock in his voice. "That's one thing all these dark beings and powers can't do. Take away you ability to choose. They can kill you. They can make you do things--but they can't make you choose to do 'em.They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
Is deception the same from lying?
Lying differs from deception in two important respects. First, in order to lie, one must make a false statement. Deception does not require that one make a false statement or make any statement at all. True statements can be deceptive and some forms of deception do not involve making statements.
And when the text says, "The Fae cannot tell a direct Lie." It is meant in the most technical and literal sense. No one has ever said, " The Fae cannot deceive you."
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
Considering Eb is also so blinded by rage against White Court vamps that he snubbed one grandson and nearly killed the other one because of it, I wouldn't take anything Eb says without a healthy heaping of salt. He is not an unbiased, objective source for information.
Eb's also not exactly the poster child for "free will," since if he had his way, Harry would abandon his daughter and turn his back on Thomas. He has his own agenda for Harry, which may or may not be linked to White Council politics... and there's a lot we don't know yet about those wizards' intrigues.
Edit to add: Let's not forget, Eb perpetrated one of the biggest lies (by omission) in the whole series-- he neglected to tell Harry they were related... for years. So he isn't above deceptions of his own when he feels it's necessary. "Pot, kettle, all day long."
..."it doesn't make sense."
"Why not?"
"Because it doesn't have anything to do with balancing the scales of the Fallen lying to me," I said. "You haven't done any fortune cookie whispers into my head, have you?"
"No," he said. "Not yet."
"Well, that's what I mean," I said. "The scale stillisn't balanced. And I don't think you send people back for kicks."
Uriel regarded me pleasantly. He said nothing.
"So you did it for a reason. Something you couldn't have gotten with your seven words."
"Perhaps it was to balance the situation with Molly," he said.
I snorted. "Yeah. I bet all the time you go around solving your problems one by one, in neat little rows. I bet you never, ever try to hit two birds with one stone."
As the saying goes, "takes one to know one.." Eb is no angel, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about this, or he is a liar or deliberately lying to Harry.
...Eb warns Harry in Changes that yes, the Fae will try to lie to get control
...
What is Eb saying here? The Fae will try and lie to get what they want! ...
... these dark beings and powers ...Not specifically about the Fae. And he is speaking casually, imprecisely, to include both "lying" and "deceiving."
There is a literal woj on this. Mab didn't lie, because she believed it to be true when she said it. Through empirical evidence of what, 800+ years as Mab her knight is hers to shape as she pleases? She CAN'T lie. She can think things are true that are not. Not so subtle difference. Lying is an intention, a choice she cannot make
No; Eb is speaking in general terms about:
Quote
... these dark beings and powers ...
Not specifically about the Fae. And he is speaking casually, imprecisely, to include both "lying" and "deceiving."
He's trying to communicate with Harry, trying to convince Harry that a deal (with Mab) isn't giving in to monster-hood.
Is it lying if you think you're telling the truth?
It is not. A lie is a knowing misstatement of the truth with the intent to deceive. Both states of mind are required. If you genuinely think you are telling the truth, then you are not lying, but you may be a clueless idiot.
But he did lie to Harry, deliberately. He knew Harry was desperately lonely and craving a connection, and he still withheld the knowledge that he was Harry's grandfather, and he let Harry think he had no family for twenty years, if the timeline is accurate. So we know Eb isn't always truthful.We don't know why, do we? So Eb isn't always truthful, but Mab is a deceiver... In Skin Game she neglected to tell Harry what her and Marcone's real plan was.
2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There’s a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we’ll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book
So Eb isn't always truthful, but Mab is a deceiver... In Skin Game she neglected to tell Harry what her and Marcone's real plan was.
"Do I seem stupid to you, my Knight?" she asked. "Think."
I eyed her. Mab's voice was perfectly calm. After what I'd said to her, the defiance I'd offered her, I hadn't expected that. She had never been shy about showing her outrage when she felt it had been earned. This perfect poise was... not out of character, precisely, but I had expected a good deal more intensity than she was displaying. My defiance endangered her plans, and that never left her in a good mood.
Unless...
I closed my eyes and ran back through her words in my head.
"Your precise instructions," I said slowly, "were to go with Nicodemus and help him until such time as he completed his objective."
"Indeed," Mab said. "Which he stated was to remove the contents of a vault." She leaned down, took a fistful of my shirt in her hand, and hauled me back to my feet as easily as she might heft a Chihuahua. "I never said what you would do after."
I blinked at that. Several times. "You..." I dropped my voice. "You want me to double-cross him?"
"I expect you to repay my debt by fulfilling my instructions," Mab replied. "After that..." Her smile returned, smug in the shadows. "I expect you to be yourself."
"Whatever Nicodemus has going this time... you want to stop him, too," I breathed.
She tilted her head, very slightly.
"You know he's not going to honor the truce," I said quietly. "He's going to try to take me out somewhere along the line. He's going to betray me."
"Of course," she said. "I expect superior, more creative treachery on your part."
"While still keeping your word and helping him?" I demanded.
Her smile sharpened. "Is it not quite the game?" she asked. "In my younger days, I would have relished such a novel challenge."
"Yeah," I said. "Gee. Thanks."
Skin Game, hardcover first edtion, page 25:
"You could have told me from the beginning," I said. "But it was never about paying back a favor. And it wasn't about foiling his scheme. This was full-scale political vengeance."
Of course Mab can be wrong. That is what JB said. But that is not lying. If you know what you are saying is not true, you are lying. If you do not know that, you are just wrong. Mab cannot lie but she can be wrong.
Mab did deceive Harry about what the plan was, he and Molly confront her and Marcone.
Mab should know by now what the rules governing the free will of mortals are, right? However that doesn't stop her from saying that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases. Don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mab was simply mistaken?
Still, I keep my interpretation. Mab did not want to change Harry into a popsicle or a monster. She can shape him in a way that pleases her...which is basically allowing Harry be Harry. That pleases her. She is absolutely trying to deceive both Alfred and Harry into believing that she could change Harry into a monster or a bad guy or whatever, but she did not really say that. Uriel intervened because Harry was interpreting those words in the way Mab wanted.
Mab has made it clear more than once that Harry's shaping up to be a useful Knight, despite her annoyance at his occasional acts of disrespect. She's proud of his actions during Battle Ground. She's getting what she needs from him, so she's got no logical reason to interfere with that... and Mab is very, very logical. But she's not going to come out and say that directly, because the fae love their word games, and they expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with those games.
Did she? I think she complied with the terms of the counter-offer Harry gave her when he became Winter Knight: he'd do what she wanted him to do, as long as he got free will in how it got done. Mab made sure he understood what her intentions were, and that was all she was obligated to do, by Harry's own request.
Then Mab finally spoke, her voice sepulchral. "Do you have a point, my knight?"
"I wanted you to know that I knew," I said. Then I turned to Marcone. "There were people involved in this affair."
Mab was far too contained to give any reaction to the resolution of the situation, beyond a very, very small nod to Marcone. But she regarded me with a look of displeasure that promised me a reckoning later. Molly got the same glare."
No, I don't. I'm satisfied by the Word of Jim that said she was wrong. Mab isn't infallible; she failed to prevent Maeve and Lea from getting Nfected, after all. She can, and does, make mistakes. I also like Dina's take on it:What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are? The weakness in Dina's argument isn't that maybe Mab wanted to change Harry into a better person.. That isn't the point, the point of free will is it is Harry's choice as to how he shapes himself, not Mab's choice for good or ill.. Given what Harry saw of Slate, he was convinced that he didn't want to turn out like him, he was also convinced that Mab wasn't going to give him a choice in the matter, but to turn out like him.
What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are?
she and Marcone schemed on their plan for vengeance for some time and said nothing to Harry about it and innocent people got hurt.
... The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.
The point is to prove that Mab can be wrong, and Mab can make mistakes, rather than assuming everything she says is just lie after lie. WOJ itself said she was wrong, she believed what she was saying, she did not lie. If she believed what she said, then she believed her understanding of the rules regarding free will was the truth. Just because she was ignorant of the greater cosmic truth Uriel shared does not make her a liar.
Yeah, that tends to happen when Denarians who have no value for human life decide to take action. Neither of us can reasonably prove that it would or could have been avoided if Mab had gone against her nature and spoon-fed Harry every infinitesimal detail of their plotting.
The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.
Why do some of the best thoughts only come after hitting the Post button?
Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it? You think she is that stupid? The answer is no, she isn't
2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There’s a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we’ll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book.
No, then again, they may have had a better chance... Also this wasn't about spoon feeding Harry about their plot, it was about being honest with him that this wasn't about repaying a favor to Nic, it was about vengeance for Marcone.
That's why there is a "modify post" button... For that and really dumb spelling and grammar errors made either late at night when half asleep or early in the morning half asleep without coffee..
Nobody is saying she tells lie after lie, a good con-artist doesn't do that.. Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it? You think she is that stupid? The answer is no, she isn't, she also sees Harry, a star born powerful wizard as an opportunity. In other words a powerful weapon for the Winter Court, and we've heard several times now that the reason Harry was born was to be a weapon.. So Mab isn't above twisting those cosmic rules to have her way with Harry.. To do that effectively, you have to know them very well... And Mab does.No. Mab cannot twist the cosmic rules. I mean, he cannot choose to twist them. It is why when Harry discovered a fae lying he knew they had been nemfected. It is their own nature that has been changed. Fae absolutely cannot lie. Which makes things very confusing, like when Mab introduces herself with a vanilla name. I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.
... I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying."Sommerset" = "Summer's End" = Winter
"Sommerset" = "Summer's End" = Winteractually, I imagine that's why they pick such oddly obvious names. They cannot lie but they can take an alias based on what they actually are. Or conceivably, a name they literally "took" from a mortal or any other masks they might be able to claim?
Mab is "Mrs. Winter"
No. Mab cannot twist the cosmic rules. I mean, he cannot choose to twist them. It is why when Harry discovered a fae lying he knew they had been nemfected. It is their own nature that has been changed. Fae absolutely cannot lie. Which makes things very confusing, like when Mab introduces herself with a vanilla name. I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.
actually, I imagine that's why they pick such oddly obvious names. They cannot lie but they can take an alias based on what they actually are. Or conceivably, a name they literally "took" from a mortal or any other masks they might be able to claim?
No, Mab isn't stupid. But even after a thousand years, I doubt Mab knows everything there is to know about anything, including free will. She pretty much proves this by the way she treats Harry at the start of his tenure as Winter Knight. She demands his unconditional obedience, vastly underestimating his force of will and spirit of defiance. That's not just the wrong way to go with someone like him, it's the worst way to deal with him, and if she was so expert in matters of free will, she should have known that, too-- but she didn't. Even the smartest people can get things wrong, and Mab's no exception to that.Or she is trying to do what Eb warned Harry about in Changes.. "Try to lie.." Trying to lie isn't the same as actually lying is it? Mab the scammer was able to convince Harry that she could control him and change who he is.. Remember one can deceive without lying. Yes, the smartest people get things wrong, but in this case I doubt that Mab was merely mistaken... Uriel didn't say mistaken, he said, "lies."
What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control...She's just wrong about the rules; not "lying" and not "twisting" (bending/modifying) them -- as mentioned, these rules are beyond Mab's ability to bend/modify. But anybody can be "wrong" about something (q.v. "Flat Earth Society").
What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control. Uriel called her on it. Even more confusing, what he said she said was, "Lies." I think the better argument would be is, why? To make Harry feel better? Okay, so archangels can lie, because Uriel was lying when he in effect said that Mab was lying...
I think a mask is different from taking an alias, Odin for example is Kringle when he is wearing that mask, so it is a valid alias and not a lie. If Odin claimed to be the Easter Bunny for example it would be different. Or she is trying to do what Eb warned Harry about in Changes.. "Try to lie.." Trying to lie isn't the same as actually lying is it? Mab the scammer was able to convince Harry that she could control him and change who he is.. Remember one can deceive without lying. Yes, the smartest people get things wrong, but in this case I doubt that Mab was merely mistaken... Uriel didn't say mistaken, he said, "lies."
I also think that Mab is a very good lawyer, in other words she is very good at finding loopholes..
But Uriel was not speaking to counter Mab. He's not allowed to! His seven words are a direct counter to Lasciel's lie that made Harry lose hope and commit suicide
For the past thousand-ish years Mab's Knights have been "hers to shape," because they have let her get away with that. Harry is stubborn, though; and Uriel is personally-invested in Harry keeping his free will.
... But Uriel was not speaking to counter Mab. He's not allowed to! His seven words are a direct counter to Lasciel's lie that made Harry lose hope and commit suicide. If Lasciel hadn't spoken to Harry in Changes, and he still came up with the Kincaid plan, Uriel wouldn't have been allowed to speak his seven words. Because he's Uriel, the words he chose also had the best possible effect toward bolstering Harry's resolve against Mab's control. And the Harry they get from it is better for both Mab's and Uriel's purposes.
Even when I agree with you, Vin, I disagree with Uriel not being allowed to counter Mab. I believe that the strict rules constraining Uriel are only related with demonic things. Angels vs demons. I admit it would be not polite for Uriel to affect Mab's plans and it could cause other problems, but the strict rules that completely prevent Uriel from interfering are against demons and demon-related things.they can only act when their counters act first... Makes it pretty easy to save up activities when demons/fallen are all about breaking the rules 👀
I'm gonna go back to Ghost Story (which I don't have to hand, at the moment; so I'll need to paraphrase)...
After all the central "action" is over, and Harry's going through his "debriefing" with Uriel (but before he wakes up in Mab's lap), Harry says to the Archangel something snarky about how Uriel "always just deals with issues one at a time, lined up and separate, never taking two birds with one stone" (meaning, of course, the exact opposite -- that Harry absolutely does NOT think Uriel works that way... likely often takes many birds with one stone (not merely two, as an aspirational mortal might)).