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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 22, 2023, 10:48:02 AM
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Working on the presumption that ALL the case files are part of a significant whole (as Jim constantly is asked to recount “where did you get the idea….” ) Storm Front and Full Moon have to have serious connection to the whole.
Harry had destroyed someones previous plans to destabilise Marcone’s operation (Storm Front) by training Victor Sells and destabilise Chicago’s FBI (Full Moon) with the HexenWulf Belts where Marcone was being used as a Bogeyman to get the FBI involved.
Why?
We learn much later in Changes that the FBI Headquarters connects via the NeverNever to the Erl Kings Realm, and the Red Court seem to know their way around the Building (that’s the Eeb’s style, they did it with Harry’s building) At this point the reader assumes through Dead Beat the Erl King is Wildfae. We later learn he isn’t in Battle Ground and is in fact a vassal of Mab’s and indeed one of her heavy hitters.
Cowl had undertaken attacks on both Lea and Maeve through the later Athame plot in Grave Peril. This suggests that he was behind the plots in both Storm Front and Full Moon and that they are in effect the same scheme, to secure a back door to the Erl King’s realm for a sneak attack, to destroy or cripple her vassal, exactly like that which occurred through Pell’s Theatre on Arctis Tor to free Lea/Nemesis.the Red Court would be up for this, removing competing predators and this may have been Cowl’s price from the Red King in dealing with the Duchess Ariana’s attempts to get her revenge prematurely on Eb. Imagine Battle Ground with the Red Court instead of or as well as the Fomor and the Red Court sending a bomb ahead of the attack into the Erl Kings hall, as part of the destabilisation agenda, with the aid of the suborned FBI.
Of course this presumes Cowl is Nameless with knowledge of the Erl King’s realm (as a major vassal of Winter) and the FBI Headquarters (as a major defence attorney in Chicago).
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My take, Marcone, exposure to Harry opened up a whole new realm of power to Marcone, which
he has chased after and lusted for for the rest of the series, climax of course in him accepting a Coin of one of the Fallen which has turned him into a powerful wizard.. Stay tuned, the fallout from this will be very messy in my opinion..
We are introduced to Susan,which leads ultimately to the down fall of the Red Court and the introduction of little Maggie.
Hints of a darker power at work which at this point in time Harry is simply calling "The Black Council," so far who or what it is hasn't been really fleshed out... Your theories might apply, but
remains to be seen.
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Yes, as regards Marcone, law of unintended consequences. Cowl was working towards Battle Ground from Storm Front onwards a Baron Marcone capable of injuring a Titan and leading his banner into battle was not what he was expecting, nor was the extinction of the Red Court, his original plan envisaged the Black, Red and White Court changing sides, a befuddled and scattered White Council, Demonreach under his cats paws control, the Winter Court in disarray with Lea and Maeve turncoats and the Erl King out of action following a sneak attack, and a destabilised Summer Court. Unfortunately for him Harry occurred. Only the Black Court part of the scheme went off as planned, and it was still a near thing, and Harry still thwarted that.
Harry isn’t even at the Black Council theory at this point, in retrospect he know “Someone” was behind both schemes and is aware there is an unusual amount of bad guy activity in his home town.
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... Harry isn’t even at the Black Council theory at this point, in retrospect he know “Someone” was behind both schemes and is aware there is an unusual amount of bad guy activity in his home town.
I think that as of SF/FM, Harry just think's it's a minor coincidence, a couple of villains giving some power-ups to lower-level types for purpose(s) unknown.
I don't think it's until around volume6-ish (+/- a book or two) that Harry feels "coincidence" has been stretched too far: there's a organization, and Chicago is getting more than its share of bad-guy attention.
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I think this is key.
A long while back, I proposed that the Red Court where initially meant to do what the Fomor ended up doing. The Fomor where not being held back because of the Red Court being powerful, as has been speculated (largely due to a misconception that the Red Court were holding back other scary supernatural nations, rather than others simply playing a longer game). The Fomor simply were waiting for the right time to attack the Sidhe, and perhaps were "aimed" at the the Fae Courts by some of those players like Cowl operating in the shadows, or rather spurred into action on the Black Council's timeline.
After all, the incredibly not coincidental timing of the Outer Gates coming under heavy assault just as the Fae are fighting an ancient enemy that might have destroyed them seems to indicate a level of planning.
The Red Court (along with the other Vampire Courts aiding them) were simply the weapon the Black Council wanted to use to end the White Council.
But it's all the same goal. Anything that weakens the defence of reality so that the Outsiders can get in.
Why the Black Council want that is another question, and there is plenty of speculation around that for another topic.
Had the Red Court succeeded in wiping out the White Council, my guess is that the Fae wouldn't have lasted much longer as without the White Council I don't see Ethniu being stopped. Once she had crippled or destroyed Winter, the Outsiders would have eventually got in. And perhaps then the others would have got a chance to rule, somehow. gg
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Why the Black Council want that is another question, and there is plenty of speculation around that for another topic.
I believe it is at the end of Dead Beat, Harry tells Morgan that he feels that the Red Court are merely a "cat's paw" for a bigger power. It looked for a minute like it could have been the Fomor, but they too by the end of Battleground look like another paw of the cat... My money is on Drakul being on of the cats, Mavra doesn't know it yet, but she too will turn out to be a paw.
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I believe Cowl may have negotiated a Fomor /Red Court Alliance, the latter got the seas oceans and lakes the latter the land. The Red Court used a Fomor weapon against the White Council in Proven Guilty.
Basically Cowl was trying to create an Axis against the Accorded Nations for decades to completely overwhelm them during an attack at the gates. Harry dismantled large parts of those plans in the various case files, often unintentionally.
It’s a question as regards what the Black Council wanted as regards Cowl. Cowl played to each of the members Agenda’s more power within their sphere, destruction of enemies etc, but Fugitive let slip Cowl wants to be Master of the Future. I believe that the creation and purpose of the White God is at stake in the BAT and Cowl’s aim is to become the White God and asset his purpose. Lucifer has the same aim. Perhaps Drakul.
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I've always thought the Death of the reds freed up potential mantles into play. With the number of elders matching the number of grey council perfectly. Could be though some of that power went to better mirrors. The fomor could have been empowered not in a significant way, but in an important one. With mantles specifically meant for interaction with the mortal realms. Whatever key mechanism in them allowed practically immortal vampires to effect the fate of the world for generations only subtly opposed by the greater good(as opposed to them being thrown from reality for breaking rules on Godhood). This would be whatever power suddenly has ethniu, a titan, more than capable of once again walking abroad and deciding things again. Titans shouldn't be allowed no? It even breaks your power scale on what TWG allows because ethniu is bigger than man CT.(though perhaps less than she should have been still)So how'd she do it? The combined gravitas of 13 lesser mantles perhaps?
As for the early books... I think it could be a combination of Nemesis and Odin/EK for their own reasons. Gotta remember, we're just now meeting all the players bit they've all taken their turn at the board already. I think Shadowman was probably pushed by Raith, but I also see Odin having a hand in it for various reasons. Not the least of which is the storms actually being used and how Odin effects the weather. It's entirely possible to me, the "monsters" Eb walked away from and Raith was trying to get in good with, were simply the same group at the end of BG. An Odin and Raith could have a working relationship, with Raith having attempted to curry favor at some point.
There were not one, but two targets for Shadowman. Marcone and Harry. One target, and one potential fall guy also thrown willy nilly into the mix. With Morgan seemingly tipped off as well.(or he's selectively asleep on the job in the in-between books til the vampire war) one possible motive, is also to reveal these two elements to each other as well.
FM has a lot of throwbacks to Odin's power and descendants and centers around what we know is EK's earthly... Whatever(I forget the word, lost in a thought about how having to find a place to cross over from the earthly side requires a strong connection between the two areas and certain beings can only use connections that are close to them in ways and pondering the connectivity of mirrors to fetches🤔 anyway) so I find Odin and EK likely to be doing some amount of "testing" of their earthly counters. The death of Macfinn though, that was certainly desirable by Nemesis, though considering the cycle and what THEY know, it could've been done intentionally by our side too🤷♂️
All I know is the prophecy is self fulfilling, breaking the curse actually brings about the end of days I think, because that was Fearbringer captured in that curse. It's perfect earthly mirror it was intentionally trapped within through Saint Patrick's own family line. He didn't lay out a curse on someone else, he cursed himself and his family to stop the beast.(as is part of the cycle with DR and the Grace theory behind it, part of the cycle is using something of yourself to contain a great evil. Merlin's was a grace. Rashid I think actively contains the manifestations of Nyarlahotep with the light of his soul. The tall joyous man, something of pure good to contain pure evil, ect) the breaking of the curse is what herald's the end of days. And, pretty much ever since one of the BIGGEST repeating goals has been to make a "living"(in so much as it's able to continue to grow and change) manifestation of Fearbringer. First Kravos in the very next book no less, later Molly,(feel like I'm forgetting at least one)
🤔 I'm wondering if there's a pattern behind which walker is active in the books actually though identifying that would be hard. Fearbringer is pretty obvious, then there's the crazy young magical female trope that I think is probably Nemesis and 🤷♂️
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Which Mantles are these? Where are they mentioned in text or in WOJ, as you like to say please cite the book and page number or the WOJ.
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Which Mantles are these? Where are they mentioned in text or in WOJ, as you like to say please cite the book and page number or the WOJ.
the ones all the ramps wore that they'd have gotten off the original, it was discussed here to the point all serious forumites adopted it as canonical. No it's not my theory. It's piggybacking off of someone else's, so if you disagree with that part, go find your elders and challenge them about it because it was about as accepted as ducks pancake universe or seracks grand unification theory. Go ahead though, completely dismantle the theory the Lord's of outer night had attentive mantles. Just go into the logic behind it and actually stop it from making perfect sense.
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I think people are too quick to call something a mantle, when it isn't. Or it may be considered a mantle because "power is gained," like the "mantle of the presidency", however this type of mantle shouldn't be confused with the mantles like the Queens of Summer and Winter hold.
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Actually.. I don't suppose you remember this argument but, mantles by definition are in the same vein of logic as mantle of authority. Mab has the mantle of the winter queen. What makes that a metaphysical mantle is open of debate of course. But when you factor in how gruff reacts to Murphy hiding behind a mortal mantle, it's possible the metaphysical impact of all such things in the DF have more weight behind them then a regular usage. The mantles in question would be to the head of the Aztec/incan religious order. It's living deity. Which with the cattle and ramps they've technically kept going even when avoiding their stronghold on earth.
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Once again point to where it says this in the text or in the WOJ.
Mira is correctly going by those criteria
I believe there is a WOJ which does directly contradicts your point, that the Red Court assumed the identities of Elder Gods who disappeared and garnered some power from their worshippers in the interim. We know what happened to other Elder Gods and Powers, permanent Exile to the Never Never, a power step down or Demonreach. I suspect the latter in this case as it provides another reason for Peabody to become Warden, it would create a hold over the Red Court once the White Council had been destroyed by them, and prevent them double-crossing Cowl and the Black Council/Circle. Basically the adults would have come home to find that the kids had trashed the place. We know a Warden can selectively release an inmate from Peace Talks/Battle Ground. What a lovely piece of Blackmail, they could do the same with all other factions Cowl worked with e.g the Etruscan deities for the White Court.
Thank you Sibelus you have inadvertently provided a motive for Peabody’s actions in Turn Coat, the Warden is a check on the Red Court and others because some of the inmates have scores to settle with their successors and any conflict would be very one sided given their relative power levels, and that threat prevents a double cross against Peabody and Cowl, and they are released under the control of Peabody so the Elder Gods can’t double cross him and Cowl.
The Elder Gods are wildly more powerful than the Red King, who wasn’t even at the Immortal power level of the Erl King, my guess his power level was that of Odin (without the Kringle Mantle) and the Lords of Outer Night ranked below that (it would be consistent with Vadderung demonstration to Harry)he did not therefore inherit the Mantle of an Elder God and could not therefore transmit it to anyone else. Any Mantle or power was locked in Demonreach most likely. Cowl would have some seepage hold over Peabody.
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Once again this is one of those meta theories that take place on others theories. Don't like it? You can either ignore it or get on its level to try to take it down. Which requires discussion. Not a, I don't believe so.
Mira's comment isn't actually directly related to that, because it doesn't declare anything other than she thinks people are too quick to label something a mantle. Her comment stands on its own and my reply was a question. Not a declaration.
And so ya know, as long as it's, "how to cow him, how to beat him, how to shut him down". It's not going to work. You could disprove me easily enough at times, but the focus on the W is too narrow to look that deep.🤷♂️ My focus isn't on being right, it's on finding the truth. It's already a different game for me.
Peabody becoming warden? Your welcome I guess but it seems that your theory relies on the idea they're in fact in DR. Since that's not proven your theory has no more leg to stand on than mine wouldn't you say?🤔(gonna need that woj too...)
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The Peabody as Warden Theory is dependent upon the motive to kill LaFortier in that he was in fact an hidden absentee Warden, Peabody had been waiting for years to identify the Warden, and had him killed releasing Demonreach. This is the reason I believe why Jim in WOJ will not disclose the identity of the Warden before Harry, it gives away Peabody’s motivation.
His intention was to slip to the island when he wouldn’t be missed and undergo the ritual (he is an expert on summoning and binding due his previous work on the Erl King) but Harry beat him to the punch, something he couldn’t know until he himself was on the island tried the ritual and failed. He was one of two people to arrive on the island from the Never Never with the Winter Spiders, likely this was from a back door normally protected by Mab, and used by the Gatekeeper, so Maeve would have accompanied him. There is a link from Pell’s Theatre in Chicago to just outside Arctis Tor, so Peabody could set off after the rest of White Council and arrive at the island about the same time, and leave and get back to Edinburgh by the same route.
It’s likely this which turned Mab to the need to kill Maeve.
I do genuinely thank you for your earlier post, it led me to an insight as to why Demonreach was so important and fits with several other theories I have put forward about Cowl and the Red Court. It was a piece I was missing, but is obvious in retrospect Demonreach was to be a sword of Damocles over the Red Court, Cowl never intended to be dependent upon their good will.
The WOJ about the Red Courts origins is from a Q&A a few years ago, I would have to review several YouTube videos to identify which. It is certainly pre- Skin Game and as he had killed them all off probably after Changes. However it is consistent with parts of the text and WOJ about the Greco Romano Gods and the anticipated wrestling book in relation to what happened to the old pantheons. The WOJ was I believe in respect of this passage, and the questioner wanting more information.
“He shook his head. “What you must understand is that you face beings such as I in this battle.” I frowned. “You mean . . . gods?” “Mostly retired gods, at any rate,” Vadderung said. “Once, entire civilizations bowed to them. Now they are venerated by only a handful, the power of their blood spread out among thousands of offspring. But in the Lords of Outer Night, even the remnants of that power are more than you can face as you are.” Page 162 of Changes.
Odin at this time is a shadow of god-like self himself, and being coy about his current power level, to avoid giving information away, inadvertently about himself, we only later discover he became mortal to stay in the mortal world, suggesting the Red King is in a similar situation, no longer wielding anywhere the full power of a god. We don’t know he is also Kringle at this time (although Jim put in an Easter Egg) the Red King may have been the de powered remnant of a depopulated pantheon, accepting mortality over exile or imprisonment
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Honestly man, it's a damn good theory there. The only thing I disagree with offhand is who else went to the island with him(why Maeve? This is a perfect job for nameless anyway? Remember, bureaucrats and lawyers are friendly cousins in there jobs lol)
Though I think you misinterpreted whose mantle Red King would have received. Kulkan has strong ties to Quetzalcoatl in the same way Roman is related to Greek pantheon wise. The original theory I read has vampiric beings(outer night wannabes) draining the original pantheon metaphorically and perhaps literally of their power. Being Lord's of outer night alone wouldn't have put there place of power there on earth for instance. Powers not destroyed though we know. So what happened to the energy behind these quasimmortal beings TWG couldn't just throw out? Who have real bodies left over. (Which I do have a theory on why he doesn't/can't and it's related to the arbitrary usage of 7 courts despite only bothering to really flesh out 3-4 of them to any depth, because they're mirrors of the seven deadly sins)
Which actually is the thread that got me looking into Nemesis the Goddess and her attentive identities in proto-Roman culture, Etruscan. My original big theory.
My pondering, was what happened to that energy unbound by Dresden's knife? True it's likely the Eb's survived but I don't think they got the power for the same reason they didn't get hit by the curse. Hidden away in EK's dungeons. Originally, I found the idea of 13 matching grey council members to be a good sync to that power. Though the discussion on how the fomor were actually in any way unbound by the ramps disappearance made me question if that's where their power went.
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Nameless doesn’t do his own dirty work if he can avoid it so if the jump off point in Arctis Tor is Mab’s ice garde/dungeon then he might not have access to it .
Gods don’t have Mantles, they came into being before linear time Mantles are constructs. Odin assumes a Mantle after powering down, the Kringle Mantle was created in linear time like the other 8 known Mantles.
A real God can’t be drained by a lesser being unless this is permitted on something like Halloween. It is clear the three-fold choice given to all beings of God level power, we have seen it operation. The WG on the other was in a position to power down those who wouldn’t accept exile, and that power added to the WG. Why should it go to mortals? In Chicken Pizza the WG had four of its champions on the field, what power didn’t go into the bloodline curse was likely absorbed by the WG via the Angels in the sword. This is probably what happens with the power of every monster slain by the swords or in their proximity, their power goes to the WG.
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Nameless doesn’t do his own dirty work if he can avoid it so if the jump off point in Arctis Tor is Mab’s ice garde/dungeon then he might not have access to it .
still puts too much on Maeve being interconnected in other plots to me. All word on nameless is he's the thread that weaves through others actions. Maeve, would also have been recognized by the island, if not outright in TC, when she arrived later in CD it'd have known she brought the spiders last time.
Gods don’t have Mantles, they came into being before linear time Mantles are constructs. Odin assumes a Mantle after powering down, the Kringle Mantle was created in linear time like the other 8 known Mantles.
na, that's citation needed. Hercules is a mantle now because he didn't survive, who made Hercules into the mantle of the hulk?🤷♂️ considering all he did was go berserk and is literally quoted as beating his head on things. Your looking at specific crafted mantles but forgetting there's already woj on mantles and many of them existing without anyone currently holding them. God's don't have mantles, unless they are a mantle. And since that's one mechanism completely unidentified at this time 🤷♂️ gonna have to show proof of what makes a mantle and why to make that claim.
Oh and yes, if Quetzalcoatl was drained by kulkan, kulkan became known as such because he took his identity, mask, mantle.
A real God can’t be drained by a lesser being unless this is permitted on something like Halloween.
that's literally what was to happen during the dark hallow...? This statement needs retractable, as it's opinion is in direct opposition to known in book actions. Also, I'd say the woj Mab, if taken by a whamp, would actually be enslaved by it, also proves otherwise. And the third one already out there, is the denarians becoming the new God or some such.(something that I think was your theory?🤔) Which would be pretty hard to do with the above assertion?
It is clear the three-fold choice given to all beings of God level power, we have seen it operation.
no not really, it's easy for you to see your own thoughts on the matter tho? The WG on the other was in a position to power down those who wouldn’t accept exile, and that power added to the WG. Why should it go to mortals? In Chicken Pizza the WG had four of its champions on the field, what power didn’t go into the bloodline curse was likely absorbed by the WG via the Angels in the sword.
because pretty much the entirety of this part is sheer conjecture and completely unproven but if you actually start to look at the details is completely untenable. This is probably what happens with the power of every monster slain by the swords or in their proximity, their power goes to the WG.
1 they didn't slay them, Dresden did, and Leah and how many did they actually cut down themselves?
Anyway, the simple logical reason is the swords are powered by grace, doffed by angels. Angel's are absolute. They wouldn't be taking on the alloy and change of demonic forces while constantly growing in power threatening the entire balance in the process. Flat out doesn't work with known mechanics, doubly so going to TWG directly. Those are not the same flavor of power at all. Might as well feed the winter knight into the summer table.
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Maeve was ripe for manipulation before Nemesis. Mab had been aware of this for several decades and assigned the Red Cap to watch her. To some degree all the plots involving the Faerie Courts are traceable to Cowls manipulation of Maeve, she had even moved her Court to Chicago in Grave Peril, which gave Cowl/Nameless cover for his continued involvement in Chicago.
Mantles are by their very nature a construct, look at the discussion between Molly and Harry as to the complexity of their Mantles. The Queens Mantles also appear to be linked to the statues in Hades Vault as some kind of physical anchor. Kringle legends date back only as far as 280 AD with St Nicholas, well into human history. The Fairie Courts looks to be Arthurian so 5th and 6th Century - Christianity was supplanting worship of the Pantheons so the changeover to the Faerie Courts as defenders of the Gates would make sense. The Mantles would have been constructed at this time pouring in power from retiring gods.
The Darkhallow was to consume the human lifeforce of Chicago, not the Erl King and the wild hunt, that summoning was to raise the difficult to get at spirits.
The Hulk is a fictional character in the 616 Marvel Universe, so is Hercules. Harry admits that Spider-Man is equally valid as he is in a multiverse, so the Hulk and the 616 Universe Hercules exist. Not sure there is a WOJ over Hercules, Jim is going to use the Greco-Roman pantheon in the Wrestling Book, it is where they are eking out bits of worship. Thor is apparently playing College Football for the same reason.
We have seen what happened to Odin, we have seen what happened to Hades and when the Titan came out of hiding three champions of the White God capable of injuring/binding her were on the field. Mab is also considered the most powerful of beings currently in play, the Titan was a shock, so there is no one other than Titania supposed to be around at her over level or above other than angels and archangels, which definitely suggests the White God is responsible for this.
Dresden slew them but didn’t absorb any of their power, you suggest the Grey Council did, bit the White God makes more sense. His Swords were there for a reason.
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Maeve was ripe for manipulation before Nemesis. Mab had been aware of this for several decades and assigned the Red Cap to watch her. To some degree all the plots involving the Faerie Courts are traceable to Cowls manipulation of Maeve, she had even moved her Court to Chicago in Grave Peril, which gave Cowl/Nameless cover for his continued involvement in Chicago.
as quite shown and pointed out, she didn't need cowl to manipulate her into Nemesis service tho. And considering Maeve was being watched from inside that'd really give mab way more insight into blaming nameless for her daughter's fate. Proof or no, if mab even suspected that he did, he'd be facing Mama Bear aligned with the will of the mantle.
Mantles are by their very nature a construct, look at the discussion between Molly and Harry as to the complexity of their Mantles.
the mantles we've seen are constructed yes. Though when you start to look at the raw details you see what exactly the other side of a mantle is, a mental/spiritual construct of a spiritual being. It's their mind/identity. Always. Not all mantles are based on mirroring a particular being, but those still connect to a specific metaphysical idea. The archive is human memory for instance. Not memory per SE, but the collective idea of human knowledge.
And then we have... Bob. Which when you start to look at the details is just a different "deal" around a similar existence for the spirit. Instead of a mantle it's another way to create insulation between spirit and user. Bob pays in knowledge for a place to stay in the physical realm, he's paying rent. Instead of having his own identity and effecting 'the wearer', he'd become a reflection of the wearer, something that itself could take its own identity like kemmlers version even sans a name. Mantles, talisman, home skulls, coins, curses even.. ect is all just a form of insulation from a perfect possession, the complete blending of a spiritual being with a human capable of free will actions. The fae mantles are so strict because they must maintain a perfect balance. It's a contract with the wearer to subsume them and in doing so eek the free will/ the soul out of them into keeping the mantle fresh and viable in reality.
The Queens Mantles also appear to be linked to the statues in Hades Vault as some kind of physical anchor. Kringle legends date back only as far as 280 AD with St Nicholas, well into human history. The Fairie Courts looks to be Arthurian so 5th and 6th Century - Christianity was supplanting worship of the Pantheons so the changeover to the Faerie Courts as defenders of the Gates would make sense. The Mantles would have been constructed at this time pouring in power from retiring gods.
it's implied the fae grew with their importance and power. The original winter queen wouldn't have needed a mantle, she was the queen of winter. The effect your talking about is actually the giving of certain authorities to said Queen. It's the authority and power given by the mothers, through the table that beefed the importance of the originals. After all the woj is they're both the last of the original defenders and simply the current ones in trusted with it. They'd already been around, they just didn't have the position in reality.
The Darkhallow was to consume the human lifeforce of Chicago, not the Erl King and the wild hunt, that summoning was to raise the difficult to get at spirits.
you definitely need to look at the attentive woj and it's context, even the context in book.
The Hulk is a fictional character in the 616 Marvel Universe, so is Hercules. Harry admits that Spider-Man is equally valid as he is in a multiverse, so the Hulk and the 616 Universe Hercules exist. Not sure there is a WOJ over Hercules, Jim is going to use the Greco-Roman pantheon in the Wrestling Book, it is where they are eking out bits of worship. Thor is apparently playing College Football for the same reason.
that is the woj, that yes they existed in the DF and now they exist and are impowered in the human zeitgeist by amalgamations of memory like the hulk. Specifically citing his berserk tendencies and that he did not survive. And yes I'm sure the wrestling book will have a lot more on that. Also mentions other mantles nobody has claimed.
We have seen what happened to Odin, we have seen what happened to Hades and when the Titan came out of hiding three champions of the White God capable of injuring/binding her were on the field. Mab is also considered the most powerful of beings currently in play, the Titan was a shock, so there is no one other than Titania supposed to be around at her over level or above other than angels and archangels, which definitely suggests the White God is responsible for this.
in the overarching context, sure? He's in cahoots with the good guys to get reality the right antibodies to help it stay healthy. Not sure what that's says all by itself though.
Dresden slew them but didn’t absorb any of their power, you suggest the Grey Council did, bit the White God makes more sense. His Swords were there for a reason.
and I've already shown why that'd not make any sense or be thematically correct at all. TWG doesn't seize power, tries to minimize his own power, knows the importance of power in play, maintains balance, and uses angels which are absolute, not alloys which is the kind of power your implying. Flat out doesn't work. It's not goblin made steel, it does not absorb that which strengthens it. Considering that's also an action the angels would have to take, not the welder. Then attentive angels on the other side would also be impowered to take more power, on earth, for themselves. Actually doesn't make sense.
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“mantles we have seen” you are predicating a theory upon something we haven’t seen, and that is magical thinking, rather than empiral proof.
There is a WOJ that Toot is becoming larger due to increasing importance, which is what you might be thinking of, but Mab is not Toot, she started Mortal and assumed the Mantle and the whole balance between the Courts (the entire plot of Summer Knight) shows this does not apply to the Mantles. They are self-regulating to maintain a balance. Seeking to expand the definition of Mantle doesn’t change this and in the case of Angels their essence has been explicitly called by Jim their Grace, not Mantle. Bob is nothing but spirit he is not a Mantle or anything like one.
From the Dresden Wiki “Kemmler's Heirs intend to call up ancients spirits using the Erlking and then devour them for power on Halloween Night during the powerful Darkhallow spell that will turn one of them into a god-like being with ungodly powers.[1]”
It would also include ripping the spirit from the living, like a lot of dark magic like the bloodline curse.
The Hulk is well accepted as an update of Jekyll and Hyde by Robert Louis Stephenson and is itself the classic man transforms into monster trope that we most commonly with werewolves and espiaclly the Loup Garou. I believe you may have got the wrong end of the wrong stick. The Hulk WOJ is in regards to Mouse drawing power from the Carpenters threshold, not Hercules.
Odin is not the only powered down elder god reference is made to Thor and WOJ exists as regards the wrestling book. Odin’s solution was to take up the Kringle Mantle, the other gods are eking out life amongst humans with the belief they can garner as celebrities, again a specific WOJ.
The WG is clearly the most powerful entity in the Dresdenverse and maintains that, as set out above, against all other entities. The WG merely believes in mortal free-will, and exercises self restraint in that regard, not expending power to help others but accumulating it through belief, and likely such instances as this. Creation is a closed system (until someone opens the Outer Gates) all energy released goes to the mortal world or the Never Never, both ultimately controlled by the WG.
There is nothing in Changes to suggest that the Grey Council siphoned off this power for themselves, no Darkhallow or equivalent mechanism to re-direct it to themselves. Odin himself is very careful to maintain his power level as is (baring the Kringle Mantle) as part of his bargain with Uriel to be able to stay involved in Mortal affairs. It should be noted Kringle and Uriel do lunch once a year. Uriel is keeping an eye on him.
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“mantles we have seen” you are predicating a theory upon something we haven’t seen, and that is magical thinking, rather than empiral proof.
actually it's predicted upon the variation in mantles seen, which are more than just the queens or even the fae, and those we know to exist through woj. And then extending through common themes throughout the DF that have been repeated. Almost like it's a self-contained system of magic and creation penned to be such. By a guy like Jim who has woj he likes to connect ideas through certain key descriptions and such.
There is a WOJ that Toot is becoming larger due to increasing importance, which is what you might be thinking of, but Mab is not Toot, she started Mortal and assumed the Mantle and the whole balance between the Courts (the entire plot of Summer Knight)
and your missing that she's not the original, she started as human doesn't mean the winter queen did. Indeed MW is the original millennial old being, though her identity as MW is not. It became the strongest at the same she gave a portion of her authority to the WQ. Meaning she changed based on the passing of authority to a position. Just like the theory would say.(and became a fae mantle btw, that's an important distinction since her change reflected what she gave power to)
shows this does not apply to the Mantles. They are self-regulating to maintain a balance. Seeking to expand the definition of Mantle doesn’t change this and in the case of Angels their essence has been explicitly called by Jim their Grace, not Mantle.
nonlinear statement, does not compute 🤷♂️ do you refer to the queens? The archive? Kringle who actually works to stay in the positive? How about Eldest. Is it the mantle compelling them, or are they compelled by their own nature and what exactly is the mantle of "eldest" if not an obvious nod of authority?Bob is nothing but spirit he is not a Mantle or anything like one.
actually I just pointed out how he is and can continue to elaborate. You seem to be having the same issue MR D did and think your going to state an opinion as fact instead of point to factual things to use as a basis for your opinion. 🤔 Are you sure your not just trying to make me "wrong" still?
From the Dresden Wiki “Kemmler's Heirs intend to call up ancients spirits using the Erlking and then devour them for power on Halloween Night during the powerful Darkhallow spell that will turn one of them into a god-like being with ungodly powers.[1]”
😂😂😂😂😂😂 do not ever quote a fandom wiki at me, I've already made my opinion of those perfectly clear. They're not sources beyond facts presented in book or through woj. That's someone's opinion they wrote in, just like they named Nemesis a few years ago and stuff like that(they were WRONG) here,
Does Harry have an incorrect understanding of the Dark Hollow and other parts of the world?
Oh god yes. I won’t say Harry is clueless, but his understanding of lots of things including the way that magic works is incomplete in many ways. If only because he hasn’t been trusted by a lot of the wizarding community by a lot of the people who could have taught him better. And a lot of the people who do know better aren’t correcting him because they think it’s important to learn these things on your own. Harry’s going to be stumbling across things where he goes “Oh, well I didn’t understand this exactly right.”
Direct woj, and sense anything on the wiki is from Dresden's perspective alone it's definitely not right.
It would also include ripping the spirit from the living, like a lot of dark magic like the bloodline curse.
The Hulk is well accepted as an update of Jekyll and Hyde by Robert Louis Stephenson and is itself the classic man transforms into monster trope that we most commonly with werewolves and espiaclly the Loup Garou. I believe you may have got the wrong end of the wrong stick. The Hulk WOJ is in regards to Mouse drawing power from the Carpenters threshold, not Hercules.
no wrong end to get there bud for me bud. The woj on Hercules and the hulk is much older than that happening in book.(maybe ask radiam, just a cursory search yields him talking about Hercules smashing his head, so it's not like it's an unknown woj to the people here)
Odin is not the only powered down elder god reference is made to Thor and WOJ exists as regards the wrestling book. Odin’s solution was to take up the Kringle Mantle, the other gods are eking out life amongst humans with the belief they can garner as celebrities, again a specific WOJ.
🤷♂️ okay?
The WG is clearly the most powerful entity in the Dresdenverse and maintains that, as set out above, against all other entities. The WG merely believes in mortal free-will, and exercises self restraint in that regard, not expending power to help others but accumulating it through belief, and likely such instances as this. Creation is a closed system (until someone opens the Outer Gates) all energy released goes to the mortal world or the Never Never, both ultimately controlled by the WG.
actually that's where your wrong. Things of the mortal nature, which includes ramps and wamps, have choice, and they can chose to make that energy go outside. Great example in BR with the curse or other summoning of outsiders, they can make things exist. That power is specifically for humans, and is the thing that lets certain creatures straddle the line and TWG can't act. Humans chose it. Or like the Kraken, were made to be it(which was also done with magic, with choice)
There is nothing in Changes to suggest that the Grey Council siphoned off this power for themselves, no Darkhallow or equivalent mechanism to re-direct it to themselves.
indeed, and since Harry doesn't remember what happened after he used the knife there's a big gapping hole where I can insert that idea and it can't be dislocated from 🤷♂️Odin himself is very careful to maintain his power level as is (baring the Kringle Mantle) as part of his bargain with Uriel to be able to stay involved in Mortal affairs. It should be noted Kringle and Uriel do lunch once a year. Uriel is keeping an eye on him.
his power diminished with his loss of position and followers. No wholely assumed bargain clause needed. They do lunch because they're in similar fields of work, as per the woj you referenced, the keeping an eye on is your assumption of the situation.
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We have not seen or been told about other Mantles, there is absolutely nothing to indicate a wide prevalence of Mantles .
The intimation is that Mab and Titania started off as the Ladies, and were the originals, Ethnui in her derision of Mab makes this clear, one of the Queens went on to become a Mother, the other we don’t know what happened. She merely swapped Mantles, not accreting additional power to her mantle. We have seen this process with the Ladies, and Mab stating Harry should kill Molly because she does not consider her ready to be Queen.
Eldest appears to be a Title, and denotes an accretion of power through importance like Toot. The Archive is not a Mantle despite being a construct as it is transmitted by birth and limited to a particular matrilineal line, it is closer to the Loup Garou curse than a Mantle, where it is transmitted by the patrilineal line. Both create a compulsion to ensure succession.
A Mantle does not exist on its own, it has to find a host or return to the Queen or Mother, Lily’s transformation to stone to stop this occurring demonstrates this. The Mantles do not appear to be sentient.Bob is. Bob is not a construct he is the product of a reproductive event, given how we have seen the birth of Bonny. WOJ has it that we have seen both Bobs parents (most likely Lea and the British Prisoner) but Bob only needs a sanctum in the mortal world, when he resided in Winter he didn’t.
Fandom Wiki are a good source of facts and WOJ “They're not sources beyond facts presented in book or through woj.” Is not a criticism, they are not presenting an opinion but you appear to consider personal opinion Trumps facts and WOJ. As I said magical thinking.
It’s mortal free will which allows for Outsiders to be whistled in, the one thing the WG won’t interfere with.
Please provide the WOJ about the Hulk, if genuine it demonstrates poor research on the part of Jim (which would be worrying) the Hulk as a character only debuted in May 1962 far too late for one to be conflated with :) the other.
You cannot rely upon an absence of evidence to justify your theory as regards the Grey Council, that is an opinion not a theory.
Odin has sought to stay in the Mortal World to continue to involve himself in human events. Odin’s worship base was healthy until about 1,000 AD (the vikings) before Christianity started eating into it, much later than most of the other pantheons were supplanted by Christianity and he still has between 500 and 1,000 worshippers. This suggests a conscious decision on the part of Odin to surrender power when he had it rather than gradually lose it over time. He most likely traded it for the Kringle Mantle, to gain immortality. I doubt he is the original Kringle, but legend does conflate Odin and Kringle and he probably then promoted the conversion process amongst his followers as part of the agreement, boosting the WG further.
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We have not seen or been told about other Mantles, there is absolutely nothing to indicate a wide prevalence of Mantles .
we've been told specifically about the existence of other mantles. To list some specifics in case you've forgotten already, Hercules, Eldest fae lineages. The Archive, moving into the obvious logic, any being known by a different name or mask regardless of actuality of the being holds a mantle for it, because as per Odin Masks and mantles are not different. Lord General of the Za lord's army. Said woj also implies EK is a mantle(how do you think he got so powerful to begin with?~sic), and probably more I'm forgetting.
The intimation is that Mab and Titania started off as the Ladies, and were the originals, Ethnui in her derision of Mab makes this clear, one of the Queens went on to become a Mother, the other we don’t know what happened. She merely swapped Mantles, not accreting additional power to her mantle.
I don't know how your theory here effects mine at all, except I'm glad you admit one thing, she swapped up mantles. Also we have no idea when the first exchange happened so that's all conjecture on conjecture to talk about.
The only thing Enthiu makes clear is Mab was human, that much we know unless you can pull some quotes I didn't read?
We have seen this process with the Ladies, and Mab stating Harry should kill Molly because she does not consider her ready to be Queen.
Eldest appears to be a Title, and denotes an accretion of power through importance like Toot
once again for those in the back, woj, they are mantles. The Archive is not a Mantle despite being a construct as it is transmitted by birth and limited to a particular matrilineal line, it is closer to the Loup Garou curse than a Mantle, where it is transmitted by the patrilineal line. Both create a compulsion to ensure succession.
actually their both mantles, but let's stick with the archive for this, because your basically assuming the whole definition of a mantle to be maxed out at what you can say for sure(which is sometimes inaccurate as I've countered numerous points for you to just move on to erect the straw elsewhere), not on what you can actually disprove. This, this isn't how theorizing works mkay. And until you get off the vague reprovals like that I'm just going to ignore you and reiterate and elaborate on my theories every time you do it 🤷♂️
A Mantle does not exist on its own, it has to find a host or return to the Queen or Mother, Lily’s transformation to stone to stop this occurring demonstrates this
conjecture followed by complete contradict of woj?🤔👀🤷♂️ It has to find a mirror. It actually finds the queen and mother because it goes to the closest mirror. This is directly stated in book. The Mantles do not appear to be sentient.
the blackstaffs not sentient, it IS a mantle, and despite both and being an inanimate object Eb still talks to it. 🤷♂️ Bob is. Bob is not a construct he is the product of a reproductive event, given how we have seen the birth of Bonny. WOJ has it that we have seen both Bobs parents (most likely Lea and the British Prisoner) but Bob only needs a sanctum in the mortal world, when he resided in Winter he didn’t.
yep, and mantles only need to be worn to be connected to the living world 🤷♂️ an vise versa. Also Bob needs more than a sanctum, the sanctum is part of the deal denoted on the skull, he's in contract with the last person who touched it. A constructed deal. See, I don't disagree about the construction that's the point. That's the insulation. Thanks for agreeing, all these mantles ARE constructed. That's what makes them mantles and not possessions
Fandom Wiki are a good source of facts and WOJ “They're not sources beyond facts presented in book or through woj.” Is not a criticism, they are not presenting an opinion but you appear to consider personal opinion Trumps facts and WOJ. As I said magical thinking.
they are presenting opinion, the difference is they're stating it as facts. I'm stating facts and then telling you my opinion of what they mean, magical thinking indeed. Now if only I could find someone who can discuss what the facts mean instead of trying to tell me what the facts do not outright say? Because the later mindset gets you no where, in theory, literally lol.
It’s mortal free will which allows for Outsiders to be whistled in, the one thing the WG won’t interfere with.
like this, your stating a fact, but you somehow feel it limits other ideas around it by being so?
Please provide the WOJ about the Hulk, if genuine it demonstrates poor research on the part of Jim (which would be worrying) the Hulk as a character only debuted in May 1962 far too late for one to be conflated with :) the other.
??? When you say things like this, I'm certain you're trolling. The idea of the berserker can evolve through Mr Hyde to hulk in time. I'm not sure how this applies... Though Jim probably followed the logic of "where the religious furor/legend's went" which has a lot of that passion being thrown into Wagner before settling in in the comics(whole documentary on the all hero mythology and comics)
You cannot rely upon an absence of evidence to justify your theory as regards the Grey Council, that is an opinion not a theory.
that's exactly what I'm going to do, and that's exactly what an theory is. Devoid of evidence to the contrary, (which you can't use your opinion to say a thing isn't) That's exactly how theory craft works. "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." -Einstein. This misperception needs to stop. Unless you enjoy immovable object vs unstoppable force? I rather confess, I've been doing this for years now. Not just here and about the DF, but Harry Potter (I knew snape loved her and Harrys horcrux status before book 5) on Facebook, social media, RL. this? This is grinding old levels after I already beat the game. Good for keeping my skills sharp.
Odin has sought to stay in the Mortal World to continue to involve himself in human events. Odin’s worship base was healthy until about 1,000 AD (the vikings) before Christianity started eating into it, much later than most of the other pantheons were supplanted by Christianity and he still has between 500 and 1,000 worshippers. This suggests a conscious decision on the part of Odin to surrender power when he had it rather than gradually lose it over time. He most likely traded it for the Kringle Mantle, to gain immortality. I doubt he is the original Kringle, but legend does conflate Odin and Kringle and he probably then promoted the conversion process amongst his followers as part of the agreement, boosting the WG further.
okay 🤷♂️ see I don't mind other people's theory, I point out where they don't work so they can be improved upon. Or if someone thinks their's somehow unmakes mine, which is never the case and as can be seen going backwards through this conversation, doesn't work too well no matter how many points they suddenly move on from to new fortifications... Precisely because they don't get the above Einstein quote. Here I'll throw a woj at you anyway All that said… Not everything about the events of Changes has been shown, yet, and there are a lot of elements in it which are deliberately misleading within the context of that story taken on its own.
🤷♂️ keep in mind even when I don't directly mention it... I usually have some evidence anyway. I just forget 😂
So until Gawain starts banishing creatures with his pentagram shield, make mine Marvel!
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Are you going to explore where the mantles come from?
We’ll have to as we go on, in terms of, to a certain degree, some of them have always been there. If we're talking about mantles in There’s all kinds of them. It’s not just Faerie, they’re all over the place. There are still mantles hanging around from Greek times. Greco-Roman mythology, **unintelligible** mythology. The gods are also around, in one form or another, most of them are around. Some of them got themselves killed. Because lets face it, some of those guys were idiots.
And I mean, you go back there and read, and it’s like, how could you possibly have survived that? The answer in the Dresden Files is that they didn't. They *unintelligible* up til they died. Sorry, Hercules, you can only go slamming your head into walls for so long. And if your mantle passed on to The Hulk, it sort of exists in people’s minds and imaginations now.
Info about really powerful beings
The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they’re really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don’t show up on the real world, it’s because you’re too big to walk around there. For instance, I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn't bear his weight, it’s not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it’s that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you’re in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn't mind it, he thinks it’s awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there’s folks who don’t show up in the real world, it’s because they’re super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it’s just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that’s because he’s just too big to show up here, it’s a giant sandbox, and he’s got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.
Went ahead and did the woj afterwards since it refutes your conjecture on Odin as well. Looks like not only does Odin not mind mortality, but finds it pretty nifty too.
And look at that, the mantle of the hulk now existing as an idea just like I said. It's almost like I spent hundreds of hours skimming the site and woj section making solid foundations to my theory craft in an attempt to actually ascertain the truth and not just guess at it.
~The Sybilius
To give some wrote insight into how I operate look at the above quote. He goes from talking about mantles being around to also god's being around still too then on to a demigod who passed and his mantle. Jim basically lays out all the connections between mantles vs living gods right there. It even has a certain repetition of topic that I could compare to the Gettysburg address and Lincolns use of word repetition. See, this is what I can't get the allistics to understand. This is my savant syndrome manifest. 🤷♂️ Getting mads not going to stop me, trying to unmake my work only strengthens me, nothing's going to change except Jim's own choice. Happens all the time. But I'm going to keep making crazy connections nobody else is gonna see, cause that's who I am. It's what I do. And after 35 years I dam well know how to identify and fight Chuck's shadow warriors. Literally the origin of the hypersensitive ability to read way too deep into things, trauma response 🤷♂️
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... I'd say the woj Mab, if taken by a whamp, would actually be enslaved by it ...
Um, cite please?
WoJ says Mab could be enslaved by a Whampire?
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...
Eldest appears to be a Title, and denotes an accretion of power through importance like Toot ...
I think you are going to need to _substantially_ change your understanding of "Mantles" in the Dresdenverse (I suspect some knock-on changes to some of your other Conspiracy Theories, in consequence of this fundamental misunderstanding) ...
Also, if a unique denizen of Faerie akin to Cat Sith were to die, does it have a mantle that passes on? Would the next-eldest malk be able to get more powerful?
[...]
The mantle of Eldest is an important one in Faerie, and yes, it would pass on should its bearer perish.
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/
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Um, cite please?
WoJ says Mab could be enslaved by a Whampire?
yep, easily findable in the mab vs section in woj.vs the entire wamp court if would be tenuous victory, but whomever actually succeeded would effectively control winter. I'll look after work if you really can't find it.
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That is relative power levels, Mab alone is equalled by the Red Court, but she is not alone she can draw on Winters vassals as she did in Battle Ground and easily defeat the Red Court. This is why the Red Court avoided conflict with the Fae Courts during the war with the White Court.
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Yea, but the key idea I brought it up for(iirc) is Mab could be taken by a singular wamp in the end. No Gods are able to prevent a lesser taking their power except what they can protect by force, and guile. After all, even and especially among the gods direct fighting is not preferred
I've always had issue with this particular branch of woj actually. Because it's presented in SK that the queens are the entirety of their courts, it is their power and vice versa(I remember someone chiming in recently wondering if she's not Omni aware of her court similar to Dresden was his "bannermen") if she's the avatar of her court then the woj needs elaboration. Does it mean if they cut her off from physical backup they could match her or the two courts are actually equivalent in metaphysical power?
Looking now, thou I fear it might be lost behind a broken link in the reference section(if I'd been aware of how much of serack and co's work would be lost with the transfer... Smh, I'd have tried to preserve it)
Just about the best they could hope to accomplish would be to force Mab to make an effort. Though when Mab came for them, it wouldn’t be a kick-down-the-door-and-kick-ass kind of encounter. It would be a One-two-three-four-five-Hey-weren’t-there-SIX-of-us-here-a-second-ago? situation
god I love that he even foreshadows in his interviews. That was an awesome cat sith scene.
Here it is Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really “win” as much as “continue to exist.” Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here’s who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania–though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn’t)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they’d need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court–again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn’t be good.
o The entire White Court–very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There’s a REASON that when Mab said, “Sign these Accords and abide by them,” people listened. :)
i guess it DOES specify, the conversations I've had made me think it was vaguely put.
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yep, easily findable in the mab vs section in woj.vs the entire wamp court if would be tenuous victory, but whomever actually succeeded would effectively control winter. I'll look after work if you really can't find it.
We have different understandings of that WoJ!
No, a whampire couldn't just take out Mab; not under any circumstances.
If the entire White Court tried to take her down, they might be able to manage it, as a long-odds chance... with one particular Whamp being the "straw that broke the camels back" and that Whamp controlling Mab (and thus, Winter).
More likely, though, that she would end them.
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We have different understandings of that WoJ!
No, a whampire couldn't just take out Mab; not under any circumstances.
If the entire White Court tried to take her down, they might be able to manage it, as a long-odds chance... with one particular Whamp being the "straw that broke the camels back" and that Whamp controlling Mab (and thus, Winter).
More likely, though, that she would end them.
all that's says is they'd need their combined weight to puncture her defenses. It's clear one winner on top though. Straw though they may be, they're the straw in control of mab, not the many who put their weight in the fight. You can find a clear comparison in Ethniu. Harry didn't take her alone, but HE took her and now he could potentially unleash her under his control.(nobody in the DF seems to dispute his victory)
I'd point out it's commonly accepted she was at least as strong as Mab.
🤔 I've not dealt with you enough to say, but so you know... Reading a woj describing an exact circumstance a Whamp COULD take followed by proclaiming our different understandings and then doing the baseline, my opinion of the facts presented differs so no that couldn't happen.. does feel like a much politer version of the same things I've had to deal with 😂 careful you're not falling into the same logical fallacy though. I respect forthrightness over politeness honestly. But telling someone something is wrong based on your interpretation requires at least correlative evidence of your interpretation.
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The Fae Courts were deliberately set up with the Queens as the most powerful beings roaming the mortal world, with the exception of Angels and Archangels who have their own restriction. This suggests this is the proscription of the WG. Even their major vassals are not close, nor the semi-divine like the Naagloshii. Winter could face down a collection of most of the other nations, which is why the accords exist. The Red Court, Black Court, Fomor and White Court (Cowl’s original alliance ) couldn’t defeat Winter, he needed the Titan for an overwhelming victory. Harry killed the Red Court, reformed the White and ‘defeated’ the Black Court in Battle Ground. Cowl was also banking on Titania not becoming involved, Titania though hates Harry more than Mab now.
Everyone else stays in the NeverNever in voluntary exile, are dead, powered down or in involuntary exile in Demonreach. The exception was Ethnui, who now thanks to the actions of The WG’s champion is now in Demonreach.
I wonder if Namshiel has redeemed himself with the WG in aiding Harry to enforces his proscription it certainly creates a wedge with the other Fallen.
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The Fae Courts were deliberately set up with the Queens as the most powerful beings roaming the mortal world, with the exception of Angels and Archangels who have their own restriction.
and considering we have one exception already that's completely uncountable for, it would appear your idea is in error as a totality. Loose threads that can't be explained and only ignored to make the theory valid.
The exception was Ethnui
one exception we don't have a solid answer for means we can't know if it's an exception or an unknown rule.🤔mmm in fact there are already several viable ones. Like the courts being sins would make them part of realities core, another reason TWG doesn't just expell them(same as demons even without the additional idea, they're part of the NN but don't follow respect free will accord's, or Mabs accord's apparently sometimes) and it seems to me this would also explain why she was so weak but an equal to Mab. She didn't come with titanic power even though she came in her guise as a Titan. She had the equivalent of the red courts power which equalled mab. Before the ramps died, when the fomor had less power to act in the real world apparently,(now they're making Kraken's with near impunity, changing things by force, growing from humans just like ramps,)she probably wasn't even there but in the NN. Fantastic discussion! Helped me close the loop in my own theory about it.
Oh and the courts couldn't really take on Winter when other players interfere to cripple them.
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... 🤔 I've not dealt with you enough to say, but so you know... Reading a woj describing an exact circumstance a Whamp COULD take followed by proclaiming our different understandings and then doing the baseline, my opinion of the facts presented differs so no that couldn't happen.. does feel like a much politer version of the same things I've had to deal with 😂 careful you're not falling into the same logical fallacy though. I respect forthrightness over politeness honestly. But telling someone something is wrong based on your interpretation requires at least correlative evidence of your interpretation.
OK, here's where I'm coming from:
Your original post on this specific sub-tangent stated:
... Mab, if taken by a whamp, would actually be enslaved by it ...
This utterly lacks the contexts of:
* a full-on assault from the entire White Court
* the long-shot odds (it probably wouldn't even happen)
Without those, it appeared (to my reading) that you were implying a Whamp victory in a 1:1 Mab:Whamp encounter (which, to my sensibility, was a "Nope, not happening; Mab beats any Whamp, even pre-Maggie PapaRaith").
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Can a Ramp or Blamp even make Mab bleed? I doubt it, it took a Titan. It shocked everyone.
Same with Whamps. She would feed on them,not the other way round.
As regards power level someone is setting the rules, not unaccountable if they are working for the rule setter.
My guess Ethnui hid in the NeverNever pretending to be in voluntary exile.
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This utterly lacks the contexts of:
* a full-on assault from the entire White Court
* the long-shot odds (it probably wouldn't even happen)
Without those, it appeared (to my reading) that you were implying a Whamp victory in a 1:1 Mab:Whamp encounter (which, to my sensibility, was a "Nope, not happening; Mab beats any Whamp, even pre-Maggie PapaRaith").
Agreed, let's not forget how easily Lea put the vamp part of Susan to sleep.. Just a flick of her finger if I remember correctly, so yeah, I'd day that Mab beats any vamp, though I am not positive about Mavra.
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OK, here's where I'm coming from:
Your original post on this specific sub-tangent stated:
This utterly lacks the contexts of:
* a full-on assault from the entire White Court
* the long-shot odds (it probably wouldn't even happen)
Without those, it appeared (to my reading) that you were implying a Whamp victory in a 1:1 Mab:Whamp encounter (which, to my sensibility, was a "Nope, not happening; Mab beats any Whamp, even pre-Maggie PapaRaith").
ahh okay so I didn't think it needed context in that direction because that wasn't the point being made. The end result is the same. A whamp takes mab, they are in effect in control of Mab. The logistics of how they got there are not discussed because it wasn't relevant to what I was replying to. However, it still shows undisputed proof there is no inherent presumed mechanism stopping a whamp from taking mab or any other such being. Only the being themselves and the power they can muster against it. And as correlated with ethniu, a gased being is a gased being no matter how powerful. For the purpose of that discussion it didn't matter how the whamp gets there, only that it's proven they can indeed do so as a matter of mechanics. Give a whamp the dark hallow power boost, the mechanism of the whamp is now powerful enough to take her outright yes? Take into consideration any other sneaky way past her defenses, like blood, and it's not a proposed mechanism protecting her from being taken or controlled. Only her power and intellect.
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Was the point being made.
A single Whamp even Papa Raith at his full power is far too weak. Drakul, considerably stronger than Mavra is no match for Mab. Neither is the Red King nearly cut down by Morgan. First the Ramps and Blamps have to get blood, that means approaching Mab with iron, or a Titans power. Mab would simply vaporise anyone trying the former the latter was unknown. Whamps don’t feed on lifeforce blood, so that route is attack is out to them(unless a Whamp goes all Iron Druid and infuses his aura with iron.)
Trying to justify your original proposition by adding a Darkhallow to a Whamp is again magical thinking. Drakul has it and Harry and Cowl and that’s it. Drakul could power up with a Darkhallow to be more powerful than Mab as soon as he does he has the entire Accorded Nations on his back, so he will bide his time. Battle Ground was not that time.
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Was the point being made.
yes indeed and despite all other discussion that point has not changed in the slightest even thou you seem to be erecting a straw man around my idea being a single whamp as is can take Mab? Here let's reiterate the points that you can't move that you seem to just ignore when it suits you. Mabs, of any other God is not protected from anything taking her power by any known mechanism besides their own Will against it and whatever they can muster from that. All other points are superfluous to that. Argue and "prove" whatever you want around that. The woj proves a singular wamp can indeed control mab just like a single wizard can take Ethniu and the composition of forces is what it'd take to wear her out to that point. Not that it in any way is prohibited by TWG having an unknown, presumed mechanism to stop it. Ignoring this and trying to harp on anything else to do with it is magical thinking indeed because it doesn't change simple fact put forth in woj. A straw can indeed take mab. 🤷♂️ The rest of my conversation doesn't matter at all. We've been through this before when you were MR D I'm pretty sure too man.
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There is nothing to support your contention rather than your own opinion. Several posters have pointed out WOJ and text which empirically contradict you opinion, but you keep ignoring fact over your opinion to continue to derail threads set up for a specific factual purpose. The thread was set up to look at how the first two books in retrospect advance the the schemes revealed in later books. The Fae and Mab and the White Court don’t even appear in the first two books. You have hijacked this thread to prevent a serious discussion.
If you want to continue the airing of your opinions create your own thread on this point. I will be asking moderators to remove ALL the unrelated postings and put them in their thread.
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I've already pointed out the logic and the connections. Ignore them 🤷♂️ other people can read for themselves. Several posters have been proven wrong. Geek even posted relevant woj and told you you need to rethink your position on mantles considering the evidence. They'll continue to be relevant counterpoints and valid theory regardless. I don't think I have to worry about them being removed in any case, and indeed conversations do lead elsewhere something rather commonly accepted.
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Not a mod but simmer down people.
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Hi all, "Old Guard" here who is generally disengaged but I've still got mod status and a blown up in box.
Take a moment to consider what life stresses you may be bringing into the conversation and how they may be influencing how you are interacting with the others here. Those stresses are real, valid, and unfortunately are not alone in that people on the other side of the screen have just as real and valid ones that are influencing their interactions.
Remembering some of the drama I saw flying around this community a decade ago, I became much more empathetic towards some of the participants when I understood that the poster who cost me a sliver of sleep one night was actually struggling with some terrible RL shit. What felt like a drive-by 1 line insult to a theory I deeply cared about was really someone who had a lot more going on behind the scenes and I didn't need to take it so hard.
Iago made some posts back then that really provided some great insight (https://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html) on the human condition for me and I might share one that I've come across in the decade or so since.
*digs around* there, I added a hyperlink above to the article Iago shared, and below is a link to a long podcast on how minds change that has vastly impacted how I try to interact with others. The context is a couple years outdated, but the lessons stand.
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-improve-your-chances-of-nudging-the-vaccine-hesitant-away-from-hesitancy-and-toward-vaccination/
The book on the subject
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=david+mcraney+how+minds+change&hvadid=604545902851&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9008492&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=8192176463471806309&hvtargid=kwd-867307984929&hydadcr=22591_13493220&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_57pxs9qyx9_e
edit: Wow my sig is outdated
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Back to the original topic, Outsiders are introduced, namely He Who Walks Behind, who Harry had a run in with and defeated as a 16 year old. At that point in time he thought it was Justin who sent him after him, however in Ghost Story we find out that that was a lot more complicated, also in White Night Lash hints that the only reason that Harry came out on top with HWWB is because of what he is.
Elaine is also touched upon, at that point in time Harry thinks she is dead. Toot is introduced, the Little Folk's love for pizza, a relationship with Harry is established that eventually evolves into Za'Lord, Major general Minimus Toot and Za'Gard. Morgan is also introduced and his obsession with Harry under the Doom, even though he also saves his life. We learn much later that what is going on with Morgan in regards to Harry is much more complicated that it appears to be in Storm Front.
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“We learn much later that what is going on with Morgan in regards to Harry is much more complicated that it appears to be in Storm Front.”
Morgan is set up from day 1 in Storm Front, as being unfairly hard on Harry) we learn in Journal Morgan was supposed to protect young Harry ( a future where Harry was Morgan’s apprentice perhaps!) this does suggest to me Cowl via the Peabody connection scooped up the Young Harry, not as a weapon against the Red Court (Cowl wanted the thorough destruction of the WC and was against Ariana’s scheme, but because of Harry’s Starborn status. It was known to members of the Senior Council in Summer Knight, how long had Peabody been seeking to influence the WC? If Cowl is Nameless that would be from when Cowl was paperclipped into Winter in the 50’s. Was Cowl through Peabody responsible for the break between Margaret LeFay and Eb and the suggestion of her using her ability of the ways to “Time” a child perfectly. Worse yet we know that Eb was planning to make her Blackstaff in his stead, as a female Blackstaff she could break the laws of magic and have a child as a Starborn by time travel. Is this why was that what made her run away? Was why the Wardens pursued he? Morgan was a much better candidate for Blackstaff, except he was male, the Captain was past child bearing age at this point. Margaret was barely 100 years old when she had Harry, so she was in her 70’s or 80’s when she ran away and began gathering her unique knowledge of the Ways. Why pass over both of these much better candidates?
She is later scooped up by another Cowl cats paw Papa Raith leading to Thomas, when her knowledge of the Ways suggest a second way to manipulate Harry’s birth. If Cowl is Nameless he is inside Winter at this point and sees a way to get his very own Starborn via Lord Raith. But why after showing she could do this she voluntarily ‘Time’ a child as Starborn? All I can think of is that Uriel or the Gatekeeper intervened at this point telling her that Harry would be key to the future, but only if his father was this particular good man.
I think ‘born’ in the context is when the umbilical cord is cut and the baby is independent of the mother so you could have a practiotioner midwife being able to wait a few minutes. Margaret manipulates the day and hour via the Never Never and the midwife manipulates the minute and second, by holding off cutting the cord as dawn breaks. I bet the midwife was Lea, she so does love children. Especially firstborn.
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I think ‘born’ in the context is when the umbilical cord is cut and the baby is independent of the mother so you could have a practiotioner midwife being able to wait a few minutes. Margaret manipulates the day and hour via the Never Never and the midwife manipulates the minute and second, by holding off cutting the cord as dawn breaks. I bet the midwife was Lea, she so does love children. Especially firstborn.
I don't think it is so much about the hour the star born child was born, but more of how the planets are lined up at the moment of conception. Anyway that is how I interpret what Lash told Harry in White Night about how and why he was conceived. I seem to remember this explanation in a couple of other places. Both Margaret and Malcolm seem to apologize to Harry about what they did to him, which speaks to preplanning as to his birth under the right astrological set up to be a star born.. There has to be more than just the moment of birth, because anywhere in the world, hundreds if not thousands of kids are born at the same moment.. They cannot all be star born kids.
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I don't think it is so much about the hour the star born child was born, but more of how the planets are lined up at the moment of conception. Anyway that is how I interpret what Lash told Harry in White Night about how and why he was conceived.
Huh. That's an interesting notion! A bit belied by the term "Starborn" (implying when-born; rather than, e.g. "Starchild" etc, "child of the star(s)," i.e. influence at conception). OTOH, Jim could have chosen "...born" as an intentional obfuscation! Wouldn't be the first time he has slapped some red paint on a poor innocent herring...
I'll have to go back and read what Lash said in that scene... It's an idea well-worth a ponder or two, and a re-read.
... Both Margaret and Malcolm seem to apologize to Harry about what they did to him, which speaks to preplanning as to his birth under the right astrological set up to be a star born ...
Not necessarily. Speaking as a parent, I've grieved -- and expressed "sorry for..." -- things that were largely outside my control.
Parents often feel "guilty" for not protecting their kids well-enough (even as they go to extremes of self-sacrifice in protecting them).
... There has to be more than just the moment of birth, because anywhere in the world, hundreds if not thousands of kids are born at the same moment.. They cannot all be star born kids.
If there are "hundreds if not thousands" of kids born at the right moment, there were presumably a comparable number conceived at the right moment, too (stork action notwithstanding) ! ;)
But it's not just time but place -- the stars that were overhead in Middle America when Harry was born were dipping below the horizon in Chandler's neck of the woods!
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But it's not just time but place -- the stars that were overhead in Middle America when Harry was born were dipping below the horizon in Chandler's neck of the woods!
Like I said, it is more complicated, otherwise it would be poor story telling.. ::)
White Night page 363 hardback
"It is relevant," Lasciel said. "because of the circumstances of your birth--because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for areason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump:1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies,of circumstances that would have given a child born under under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
There are other references too but I don't have the time to look for them now where Harry is told that meeting Malcolm was the reason why Margaret decided to conceive him. My theory is she had been targeted all along to be a mother of a star child, but she rebelled against it. I think that's what Lord Raith had in mind, but Margaret didn't want that, yes, she had Thomas by him, but Thomas is no star child. Then she met Malcolm, fell in love, realized his goodness. This is a critical point in my opinion, because dozens of times through the series Malcolm's good heart is mentioned, that Harry inherited his good heart. Even Eb tells Harry in Blood Rites he had never seen a soul that was that good... I was paraphrasing, and at five in the morning on a quarter cup of coffee I'm not going to look up another exact quote at this time... ::) Anyway, back to the subject, Margaret wanted to balance the power of a star child with the goodness that hopefully her son would get from his father.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies,of circumstances that would have given a child born under under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders
That reeks of family planning once Margaret met and married Malcolm, Harry was no accident, his father sets him apart from the other star born we've met, i.e. Drakul and Listen. I think Morgan may have known of her plan, or there is a hint that he knew from the mini-story, but it wasn't till nearly the end of his life did he fully trust it or Harry. Harry is also told a couple of times that he was meant to be a weapon, that's what Justin was hoping to exploit for his own reasons, but Harry escaped him.
Which brings up another idea in my coffee deprived mind.. Mab clearly wants to and does use her now Knight Harry as a weapon.. Most likely that was part of the plan all along, why Harry ended up with a real Fae godmother. But Malcolm remains the real wildcard, maybe why he was murdered, because who ever did it was hoping that it would minimize his influence over his son and spoil the plans others had for their "weapon," Harry..
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I am not sure Mab was planning for Harry, her reach and knowledge is limited to a single universe.
Uriel on the other hand does not have such limitations, and he can look through each universe as time goes by and pick winners. This Harry came to his attention in Grave Peril and the decision he made, the MM Harry eliminated himself from the infinite line-up of Champions. Mab simply is not the top of the tree on this. Malcolm was only the way for someone actively plotting to use a Starborn, Cowl/Nameless and the Senior Council, Lea just had a bargain, as is her wont and Mab becomes interested in Harry only after Grave Peril when Uriel is in a position to manipulate Mab. “Your Vassal Lea has a contract with Harry Dresden, use that to make him your Winter Knight)
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her reach and knowledge is limited to a single universe
her reach is, not her knowledge. Woj is she shares something of an intellectus awareness with her other selves(borg queen like🤔), context being related to MM and if other Mab would know he's WK elsewhere."answer is not only is she aware of her other selves but with Harry's luck she'd simply decide that he's now hers to command while there)
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I am not sure Mab was planning for Harry, her reach and knowledge is limited to a single universe ...
I expect she knows a very great deal indeed about what a "Starborn" is & can be; no multiversal knowledge needed. As the main defender of the Outer Gates, she must have recognized the advantages of having a Starborn in her service.
I'd expect her to lay plans to get Starborn(s ... plural, as many as she can!) into her service!
And we already have WoJ that Mab lays her battle-plans across multiple generations -- she's relatvely indifferent to "attrition and losses" under the expectation of being able to just recruit more, from the next generation.
I think Mab got into the "Starbabe" plan early. I do not think it was a coincidence that Mab's Handmaiden became Harry Dresden's Faerie Godmother -- I think Mab's hand was deep in that plot.
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I'd expect her to lay plans to get Starborn(s ... plural, as many as she can!) into her service!
Perhaps, but most of her efforts haven't worked out as she would like, that is why since she already knew Margaret well, she may have convinced her after she met Malcolm to conceive of a star child. I suspect that Rashid had a hand in it as well, he too would know what was to come and what was needed. I also wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that Rashid was Harry's unofficial godfather.
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Mab is entirely absent from Storm Front and Fool Moon. Reference is made to Lea. She does not know what her vassals are doing all the time, hence using spies like the redcap. It cannot safely be assumed she knew about him until between Grave Peril and Summer Knight.
The WOJ I remember is that a Mab is individually powerful enough to contact another Mab, but there is no shared intellectus. That would make it way to easy for Harry in MM, the story is I presume he has to summon Mab2, convince her he is Mab1 ‘s Winter Knight , dissuade Mab2 from making him her Winter Knight before making a collect call to Mab1.
If Cowl is Nameless, Storm Front is the first interaction with a major Vassal Harry had with Winter since the original Lea deal. Mab never mentions any this, because she is looking at larger pictures. Mab has limits on her dealings with mortals, and not able (lacking an intllectus) to keep track of everything mortal until it is necessary to her current scheme
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Uhh, your logic kinda fails here.
If Mab is excluded because she isn't in the 1st 2 books, then Nameless who isn't in any of the novels, can't have a major role such as Cowl.
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The WOJ I remember is that a Mab is individually powerful enough to contact another Mab, but there is no shared intellectus
something an intellectus yes. Though since you remember the woj so well perhaps you can produce it?
Ahem, might also examine your understanding of the word intellectus. To percieve. She's perceiving her other selfs.
DR is not the end all be all of what an intellectus is. It even says, The island has a form of intellectus. Mab has another form.
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Uhh, your logic kinda fails here.
If Mab is excluded because she isn't in the 1st 2 books, then Nameless who isn't in any of the novels, can't have a major role such as Cowl.
Agreed.
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The Mothers have general intellectual, as does Uriel, this includes events occurring in other universes. The Queen’s do not. The Archive has an Intellectus of all recorded human knowledge and Harry has two limited intellectus, of the people in his Banner while at war and of Demonreach when on Demonreach. There has been no indication whether Mab has an Intellectus and if so as to what extent, but clearly events in the books indicate she has major holes in her knowledge she has to hire Harry for some things, she admits to a hole in Small Favour, she has suspicions as to the attack on Arctis Tor which she wouldn’t with an Intellectus Covers my even just Winter. If she has an Intellectus built into her Mantle it is likely a scaled up version of Harry’s she has knowledge of her forces deployed at the Gate and during Battle Ground was monitoring two Battles not one, and instructing Lea through it. She doesn’t know Harry from a hole in the ground.
This is why it isn’t Mab behind the scenes in Harry’s life, he only becomes relevant to the defence of everything AFTER Grave Peril. After Grave Peril, she is front and centre, and I suspect Uriel (who is watching all the Harry’s) tipped this Mab off her vassal had a hold she could exploit on Harry because this Harry had made a decision leading to a possible endgame.
The proof will be Mirror Mirror, if Mab has been behind Harry then it will be apparent in how MM Mab deals with our Harry. In both universes Lea should have been nemfected, but if only our Harry went on to become Winter Knight, the Mab had nothing to do with Harry’s early life.
Mab doesn’t appear in the first two books, but the argument is that Cowl/Nameless is acting behind the scenes in both.
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That's your argument for Cowl to be Nameless but you use the counter argument for Mab not being involved in Harry's early life.
Nameless is an interesting character but Mab and Marcone/Namshiel are better than the Jedi Council at noticing things right under their noses.
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There has been no indication whether Mab has an Intellectus and if so as to what extent,
actually(and just gonna post the whole bit, special thanks to tcf)
We're gonna get some answers in the next book we'll get some more answers in the one after that although fewer. I mean Mirror Mirror is basically we're gonna jump over into the next universe and see how things are going. And we'll sort of be able to see-that universe will be a few years ahead of where Harry's universe is now so you'll sort of be able to see the direction things are going and that should be a lot of fun. Things got worse faster in the mirror universe that we're going to-there's actually an entire spectrum of parallel realities that are existing in the Dresden Files universe and this is just going to be the nearest parallel reality that you can get to that's significantly different. Because there's always a cloud of parallel realities that are almost exactly the same but not quite.
Yeah it's kind of like, I don't know if you've ever seen Stargate or those other sci-fi shows where one new choice basically means one new reality. Wherever there's a fork they split in a row and there's a new reality.
Yeah which is interesting because if you look at that from you know, Uriel's point of view then suddenly the battle of good and evil is all about choices because every choice starts creating more and more different realities, more and more universes eternally branching universes and are they going to be places where good things happen or places where bad things happen? That's kind of an epic struggle if looked at that way.
That's actually interesting because we've talked about that on the podcast several times. I think we all agreed on that even if there's a lot of realities there's one Uriel above all realities, is that how you see it?
Sort of. Yeah I mean Uriel's an archangel so he's like-he's kinda omnipresent in the universe in many ways. He's one of God's deputies he kind of has enormous amounts of power, all the archangels do. But yeah that would be the case, is that when you get to the really high levels of power, beings like Uriel are the same everywhere they go. So poor Uriel has to deal with millions and millions of Harry Dresdens because they're always causing problems and they're always making choices and they're always creating new branches for the universe so poor Uriel just has to deal with so many copies of this guy.
There are actually multiple Uriels but they're all kind of copies of the same guy.
No, no. There's one Uriel and he's everywhere. He just exists through all of the bits of time, but for example if you go to an alternate reality there would be a parallel Mab and the two Mabs would be parallel and they probably would be able to like know about each other and talk to each other if they wanted to but they're just really fucking busy they've got a lot to do. But Mab next door would be like "you work for me next door? Well now you work for me, while you're here you work for me".
Why not take advantage?
Yeah exactly, I mean it's Mab, what other way could she react you know. But she's-Mab is tremendously powerful but she's not powerful on a scale like Uriel is where he's in the parallel realities next door and spreading out and so on.
How do the Mothers compare to Uriel? Are they in all realities or are they in parallel?
They're much closer to Uriel because-well I don't want to talk about that yet I'll put it in the books. But the Mothers are much closer to being Uriel they're essentially nigh-unto being gods on the level with you know like Zeus or the Native American gods or the Hindu gods or something like that, they're kind of on that same scale.
So all the big things that stayed immortal and godly and powerful and have to-
And kind of had to take a step back from all the mortal affairs that were going on as a result. Most of the gods did that they were just sort of "okay we're gonna take a step back, we're not really gonna be involved, we're gonna become professional wrestlers" you know that sort of thing.
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mab is aware of and communicate with her other selves. So a limited intellectus. And I think I can perhaps see why, it's her connection to the gates. The gates WOULD have its own intellectus just like the island(thinking of woj about how the gates just ARE as far as it's intellegence), and I think would exist on the same sort of scale as angels? Not certain, but neither has Harry ever just tried to know something from a different version of DR, so that is not implicit for the gates to be(is universal the right word?)
Though actually... Comparing the above woj with Morgans in book explanation of intellectus and his limits on an explanation being only relevant to knowing one reality. Perhaps angels are closer to omniscient? You'd have to get the breakdown from an angelic perspective I suppose, if they are just "aware" of things or have such a big conscious mind it can "know" multiple lines of thought on each reality all at once.
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The ability to communicate is not an Intellectus, we have seen how an Intellectus operates from the inside with Harry, you just know, rather communicate. Mab is powerful enough to communicate with her other selves, she doesn’t know what they are all doing. There is no indication in the WOJ it is other than communicate, but Jim is free to change his mind.
Intellectus are rare, that Harry has two is an anomaly as Winter Knight and Warden. However he needs both to undertake both roles. Mab does not need to coordinate with other universes so form follows function, as with the Archive, the Mothers and Uriel’s Intellectus. The Mothers Intellectus may include what their alternates are doing, if so no need for Mab.
I do suspect on the basis of this theory that the Merlin may have a limited Intellectus of all bottle caps in the Dresdenverse.
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To know about, AND communicate. I don't put limits on what they can [know about each other. Based entirely on awareness, the focus on the topic or subject.
A key detail of Harry's interpreted intellectus, focus/forethought. Which.. isn't intellectus? the island has it, Harry has a mental bond through which he shares it. But as with the withdrawing of the water of the chosing of that particular path right after the ceremony. It's limited to what DR is communicating back and forth with his thoughts directly. Intellectus would be the pure unbroken strand of space time I think.
That's part of what makes me think it's her... Actually mid thought, connection to the stone table that gives Mab a form of intellectus?.Which also may explain her weird chess game insight between her and Titania🤔 though not between Mabs like a outergates connect would... I mean, wouldn't they share in their mother's intellectus as far as needed to know job stuff? Mmm, she has multiple options for reasons/ways she'd have it.
I think the crux is the definition of intellectus. I think it's a lot broader of a term used to introduce an idea to us about beings having knowledge that's contrary to omniscient. So we'd have an idea about how beings can know certain things directly regarding their domain. Which sans the Well beefing him up, DR is really just the embodiment of a particular thing, an island. But the Courts/queens show embodiments can be immaterial concepts too.(still wanna see the genus of Chicago!)
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Mab is almost certainly aware of the Many Worlds multiverse theory and that other versions of herself exist. That does not an Intellectus make.
Besides Mab hates anyone trying to move in on her power base, she didn’t speak to her own twin sister Aurora, her fellow Queen for nearly a millennia
and wouldn’t have spoken to her in Battle Ground except that after a thousand years she was more annoyed with Harry than Mab (it’s a gift of Harry’s) .
If she can’t get on with the being most like her in the universe, she is not going to get on with a being even more like herself from another universe. I doubt very much there is a Council of Mab’s.
If as I suspect Uriel pulls the plug on the doomed universes before they can fall to the Outsiders, Mab having an Intellectus would throw a spanner in the works, she would register the end of other Mab’s, like Harry registering the deaths of his banner men. That would be soul destroying
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Mab is almost certainly aware of the Many Worlds multiverse theory and that other versions of herself exist. That does not an Intellectus make.
I'm pretty sure I recently saw WoJ that Mab isn't just "aware" of the "theory," but capable of communications between alt!Mabs. That's a hell of a lot more... but still does not an Intellectus make; there would have to be some sort of shared consciousness, while the existing WoJ could mean something as fragile & laborious as an inter-universe dit-dit-dah Morse!
... her own twin sister Aurora ...
Titania, I presume you meant.
... If she can’t get on with the being most like her in the universe, she is not going to get on with a being even more like herself from another universe ...
We don't know their histories, but I suspect a love-triangle (with mortal-Mab and mortal-Titania as two corners), with their Faerie mantling happening more-or-less at the climax of the emotional debacle. Then the Mantles kept the flames smoldering & reconciliation incredibly hard; then The Oberon Affair re-igniting the blaze.
I think two cold-and-logical Mab's might each see the advantages of communications between them; the insurmountable barriers mean that none can gain advantage over the others, none can suffer a setback in their own universe, and the differing intel each can turn up can be shared by all.
Win-win for Mab.
As usual.
(indeed, this could help explain how Mab so-often seems to know so very much, even though we never see her consulting with a spy-network)
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Apparently no Oberon according to a WOJ but she had a thing for the original Merlin, but with Odin’s multiple identities anything is possible.
In some Arthurian Legend Oberon is Zwingli of the Faeries and is the son of Julius Caesar and Morgana Le Fay. There is still debate as to whether Mab is Morgana or the Lady of the Lake, I plump towards the latter (cold dark places, far too many connections with Lake Michigan) and her sister the other.
Yes Titania not Aurora, all these Faerie Queens look alike……
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Apparently no Oberon according to a WOJ ...
Not so.
Unless Jim has retconned himself since 2012 (which possibility I cannot deny!), when he wrote in a reddit AMA session:
Oberon… well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare’s day. He didn’t make it.
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/
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This sounds like the original Merlin, Oberon is a more modern invention as a name, those pesky Arthurian ‘scholars’ retconned things every 50 Years or so trying to put their own stamp on the mythos just like Jim.
The Courts allow for no King, but the Merlin certainly came between the two ladies of his time.
When people think Of Oberon they go to a Midsummers Night Dream, I suspect Jim did a deeper dive.
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This sounds like the original Merlin, Oberon is a more modern invention as a name, those pesky Arthurian ‘scholars’ retconned things every 50 Years or so trying to put their own stamp on the mythos just like Jim.
The Courts allow for no King, but the Merlin certainly came between the two ladies of his time.
When people think Of Oberon they go to a Midsummers Night Dream, I suspect Jim did a deeper dive.
You are theorizing here in explicit contravention of the facts, as per WoJ.
There are Faerie Kings, Winter & Summer.
But they aren't integrated into their respective Queens' courts:
Where are the Farie kings? Do they exist?
Yes they do. The Erlking as sort of the Hunter king, and Santa Clause, the Winter king who is not the commercial Santa Clause. The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season. They are independent of their Queen’s courts. The Erlking is a summer king and he is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause, one of the winter kings, is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness.
(n.b. the repeated "Santa Clause" error; dunno if we are reading speech-to-text glitch, or Jim had just watched the movie, or what ... )
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We haven’t seen Oberon, but we have seen Puck a powerful Wildfae in Wild Card and Puck is as strong as Lea but listed in Midsummer Nights Dream as a vassal of Oberon.
If Oberon existed he would be in love Quandrangle with the Merlin and The sisters. I think instead he may have been Merlin as Merlin is often cited as having been fathered by a demon, but if it was instead a powerful Wildfae this would make him a changeling and explain his extraordinary power.
By the way re-reading Wild Card I believe Harry defeated Puck using sleight of hand skills he learn’t from Malcolm rather than blind luck, Harry cheated but not using magic as Puck expected, and we know from the flashbacks in Peace Talks Malcolm was showing Harry the Magician’s skills.