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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on April 22, 2012, 05:46:44 AM
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Who recruited and trained Victor Sells? I've previously assumed Mavra, but after reading a couple things, I've changed my mind.
FM - Pg 341 - Harry
I never had found out who exactly was behind the warlock who showed up the previous spring. Black wizards don’t just grow up like toadstools, you know. Someone has to teach them complicated things like summoning demons, ritual magic, and clichéd villain dialogue. Who had been his teacher?
Training Mortals with Potential
BR - Pg 333 - Lord Raith
“Wizard, I believe you have met my assistants.” Two women rose from the shadows within the circle and faced me. The first was Madge, Arturo’s first wife, the disciplined businesswoman.
BR - Pg 335 - Harry
I shot a hard glance at Madge. She had power.
SF - Pg 279 - Harry
I might be giving Victor Shadowman too much credit. He was as powerful as a full-blown wizard, but he didn’t have the education.
Training in Summoning Demons
BR - Pg 346 - Harry
I’d torn apart He Who Walks Behind, but even so he’d left me with some unnerving scars. And the ritual Madge was using was calling that thing back.
SF - Pg 293 - Harry
I had seen only one person call a demon before—and I had killed my old master shortly after. The thing crouched in front of Victor, its lightning blue eyes whirling with shades of scarlet hate, staring up at the black-clad wizard, trembling with the need to tear into him, to rend and destroy the mortal being who had dared summon it forth.
Training in Ritual Magic
BR - Pg - 334 - Harry & Madge
“So you sacrificed her for the curse this morning,” I spat.
“No, he didn’t,” Madge said in a quiet, rather chillingly conversational tone. “I did."
SF - Pg 260 - Harry
Victor was still out there, out at his lake house, he still had a hank of my hair, and he was still planning on ripping my heart out as soon as he possibly could, when the storm gave him the strength he needed.
Point of Contact
BR - Pg 289 - Harry
"Trace the money trail back and I’d bet you dollars to doughnuts that you’ll find that it’s Raith and that he owns Silverlight."
SF - Pg 40 - Monica Sells
“Where did he work?” I asked her...
“SilverCo,” she told me. “They’re a trading company. They locate good markets for products and then advise companies where they can best spend their money.”
BR - Pg 346 - Harry & Monica
“Okay,” I said, noting that down, too. “Friends, then?”
She fretted her lip, a gesture that seemed familiar to her. “Not really. He was friends with his boss, and some people at work, but after he was fired…”
Resources
SF - Pg 236 - Monica Sells
“It was when Billy was about four that Victor found the magic. I don’t know where. But he started getting obsessed with it. He brought home books and books. Strange things."
SF - Pg 39 - Monica Sells
“Yes. He had been buying books on it in the religion section at the bookstore."
BR - Pg 174 - Harry & Thomas
“What about your dad? He know any magic?”
“Like maybe entropy curses?” Thomas shrugged. “I hear stories about things he’s done in the past. Some of them must be close to true. Plus he’s got a huge library he keeps locked up most of the time."
BR - Pg 14 - Harry
Thomas was a vampire of the White Court. They didn’t drink blood. They fed on emotions, on feelings, drawing the life energy from their prey through them. The way I understood it, it was usually during sex, and rumor had it that their kind could seduce a saint.
SF - Pg 237 - Harry & Monica
“That’s when he realized that he could touch other people’s emotions, too,” I said. “Use them to help power his magic.”
She nodded, and curled tighter in on herself. “It was only me, at first. He’d frighten me. And afterward I would be so exhausted. Then he found out that for what he was doing, lust worked better."
Motivation for Training
BR - Pg 327 - Lord Raith
“No, boy. You aren’t the only one who worked out what your mother did to me. And how."
BR - Pg 335 - Lord Raith
"I finally will escape her ridiculous little binding, remove a troublesome thorn in my side... slay the wizard that has a full quarter of the Red Court quaking in their fleshmasks, restore a rebellious employee to acceptable controls, and now, in addition to all of that, I have acquired someone with influence among the local authorities.”
SF - Pg 74 - Morgan
“Someone killed two people with sorcery last night, Dresden. I think it was you. And when I find how you did it and can trace it back to you, don’t think you’re going to live long enough to cast the same spell at me.”
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Wow. That theory. It is pretty well put together. In fact, It might just have merit.
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Good post. You dug up more evidence than I did. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23585.msg1074686.html#msg1074686) ;D
What I'm curious about is how Papa Raith got ahold of the blood curse that the Red Court set up in Changes (or how The RC got it from Papa Raith.)
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ya, vadderung highly implied that the spell sells used was the same one that the reds were going to use. i think technically you could argue that he never actually said it and could have been misleading harry but i HIGHLY doubt that, because he did specifically say he was on harry's side.
granted that doesn't rule out papa wraith. the bloodline curse is probably several hundred years old atleast. there's no reason wraith couldn't have gotten it from the reds, or another source
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Given that the Whites and Reds apparently had a good relation, it;s just possible they passed it on to each other. Besides. Arianna and Raith are the two who we know for sure are almost certainly Black Council.
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Your theory is quite convincing.
I see only one problem:
I had assumed he was feeding from you and had you under his influence, but after I listened to the security tape from the portrait gallery I was delighted. Both of Margaret's sons. I finally will escape her ridiculous little binding, remove a troublesome thorn in my side-"
Raith didn't know that Harry was Thomas brother. Or he lied.
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BC trained him. i mean that talking in his room is probably a similar communication Vitto used in undertown. wether it was Raith or someone else is unknown.
this sounds like a RCV and WCV operation. Reds were making a move that Bianca had no idea about. also the demon summoning and using emotions in rituals sounds similar to Raith it can be gained from somewhere else. but for the overall theory it can be Raith also. Reds want to move in on Marcone, this also fits in on the BCouncil's goals. this is done w/out Bianca's knowledge.
Sells using a RCV ritual scaled down or given the heart curse to test it out. 3-eye could have come from the RCV or BC. could be why later on we see Raith not really supporting the RCV. he might have been pissed losing a sorcerer that the RCV was supposed to be protecting. he than sends Thomas to back Ortega in the duel in DM. sorta slap in ortega's face.
also how Morgan was sent fo quickly to Chicago and is on Dresden's ass directly. could be Peabody's influence to help Sells. Morgan w/ ink tuned emotions directed at Dresden, perfect distraction.
when Lara took over the WCV it took them from the BC coalition. this is what led to WN. Cowl wanted to get the WCV back.
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Also note that the primary targets were a Red Court controlled prostitute and Marcone's bodyguard -- both entities moving in on Raith's traditional field, lust.
Even if Raith didn't have Maggie Lefay's bloodline curse worked out yet and didn't know about Harry, Victor Sells' actions would be a great way to move against Marcone and the Red Court (I think it's probably a mistake to think of the Black Council as perfectly unified).
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Good post. You dug up more evidence than I did. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23585.msg1074686.html#msg1074686) ;D
What I'm curious about is how Papa Raith got ahold of the blood curse that the Red Court set up in Changes (or how The RC got it from Papa Raith.)
I originally assumed Mavra was responsible for Sells, because she seems to have been responsible for training Bianca. But to approach and train Sells, she would have had to used an impressive fleshmask or illusion, simply to approach him.
Raith, if he owned the company, could have met him through work, shaking a hand here and there, and realizing Sells' potential.
So my current theory is that Mavra taught Bianca magic, and Raith taught Sells. The bloodline curse sounds like something Raith would know, since the family is (presumably) Etruscan. If you combine steriotypes like Italian blood fueds and the evident 'honor' inherent in the Raith self-perception, a bloodline curse that would take out an entire enemy family would make sense. The fact that Mavra has been around long enough to learn it also makes sense, especially if she and Raith know each other.
Your theory is quite convincing.
I see only one problem:
I had assumed he was feeding from you and had you under his influence, but after I listened to the security tape from the portrait gallery I was delighted. Both of Margaret's sons. I finally will escape her ridiculous little binding, remove a troublesome thorn in my side-"
Raith didn't know that Harry was Thomas brother. Or he lied.
That opens up more questions about the entire plot. Namely, why didn't Raith kill Thomas the instant he suspected LeFay's curse? According to Thomas, Raith's attempts to kill him over the years were more in line with his standard policy on male offspring, rather than some deliberate attack to stop the curse. So Raith must have just recently thought of the possibility. Which, of course, would invalidate the motivation of killing Harry in SF to remove the curse. But killing a local WC wizard using a cats paw would follow the WCV's profile, and would be beneficial to his Cabal of Evil. Especially if there were future plans for the Chicago area.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Also note that the primary targets were a Red Court controlled prostitute and Marcone's bodyguard -- both entities moving in on Raith's traditional field, lust.
Even if Raith didn't have Maggie Lefay's bloodline curse worked out yet and didn't know about Harry, Victor Sells' actions would be a great way to move against Marcone and the Red Court (I think it's probably a mistake to think of the Black Council as perfectly unified).
I don't see where the 3I is an attack on the Reds. Marcone had a stanglehold on crime in Chicago. The 3I ring challenged his ring, and would have compromised his status. That in turn would have opened up Chicagoland to the Reds. Especially if theres a drug out there that opens new potentials to the Reds. If people get addicted to one magical drug, they'd probably more susceptible to RCV venom. The only way I see it challenging the Reds is that it runs the risk of letting the 3I users to see th RCV's true form, rather than their fleshmask illusion.
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Obviously someone belonging to the Black Council. Question is who. Raith would be a good guess, however I think he got taken out of play too early for him to assume that role.
It could be Cowl, but I don't think so. Cowl didn't really become aware of Harry until DB. Before then he didn't really care about him and from what we have seen of him Cowl doesn't seem the type to engineer something relatively lowlevel like Victor and the Hexenwulfen.
I personally think there is some divine or atleast immortal entity behind it. I think whoever is behind it was trying to shape Harry as a weapon for the dark side. He or she wanted to corrupt Harry by tempting him with power. But an entity of such power and with the foreknowledge it would require wouldn't do stuff like that personally. Even if it wasn't under a restriction preventing it from actually doing it like all the other beings of that magnitude seem to be. So instead it probably send an underling to do it. Mavra would fit the bill, but so would many others.
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I don't see where the 3I is an attack on the Reds. Marcone had a stanglehold on crime in Chicago. The 3I ring challenged his ring, and would have compromised his status. That in turn would have opened up Chicagoland to the Reds. Especially if theres a drug out there that opens new potentials to the Reds. If people get addicted to one magical drug, they'd probably more susceptible to RCV venom. The only way I see it challenging the Reds is that it runs the risk of letting the 3I users to see th RCV's true form, rather than their fleshmask illusion.
My thought was more that Bianca's rise, and especially her management of the Velvet Room, is an indirect attack on the White Court and Raith. She's setting up a Red Court dukedom in the same town that Raith has his personal seat as King of the White Court, and she's managing a prostitution service, which is Raith business. So it makes sense for Raith to want Bianca pressured as much as it makes sense for him to be pushing against Marcone.
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My thought was more that Bianca's rise, and especially her management of the Velvet Room, is an indirect attack on the White Court and Raith. She's setting up a Red Court dukedom in the same town that Raith has his personal seat as King of the White Court, and she's managing a prostitution service, which is Raith business. So it makes sense for Raith to want Bianca pressured as much as it makes sense for him to be pushing against Marcone.
True. So that would lend itself more towards a Lord Raith/Adrianna alliance, which might not have been completely mutual. I've been looking at several of the early plots, and they all seem to revolve around removing Marcone from power, thus enabling other factions to try and increase their influence in Chicago.
Maybe Harry's continual interference has kept the Circle unified longer than they would have been, had they not had a common enemy/pest.
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I can't help but wonder why Papa Raith would teach the slimmed down version of the Red Court curse to Sells, which requires the storms to empower it, when he could just teach him the He Who Walks Behind entropy curse that requires much less power instead, and can be performed any day of the week. It can't be that he didn't know it, since we're fairly certain he killed Maggie Dresden with it. Then again, that could just be First Installment Weirdness (to use a tvtropes term).
Other than that, I like this theory, and wouldn't be surprised if you're completely right.
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I can't help but wonder why Papa Raith would teach the slimmed down version of the Red Court curse to Sells, which requires the storms to empower it, when he could just teach him the He Who Walks Behind entropy curse that requires much less power instead, and can be performed any day of the week. It can't be that he didn't know it, since we're fairly certain he killed Maggie Dresden with it. Then again, that could just be First Installment Weirdness (to use a tvtropes term).
Other than that, I like this theory, and wouldn't be surprised if you're completely right.
It might have been due to the "the more people who know/cast it, the less powerful it its" effect.
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I can't help but wonder why Papa Raith would teach the slimmed down version of the Red Court curse to Sells, which requires the storms to empower it, when he could just teach him the He Who Walks Behind entropy curse that requires much less power instead, and can be performed any day of the week. It can't be that he didn't know it, since we're fairly certain he killed Maggie Dresden with it. Then again, that could just be First Installment Weirdness (to use a tvtropes term).
Other than that, I like this theory, and wouldn't be surprised if you're completely right.
What about instead of Papa Raith, some other WC vamp took Sells under his wing. We already have a strong connection between Madrigal/Madeline (am I the only one that gets them confused?) and the BC. The same stuff points to either of them as well. We already know that Madeline worked with another one trick pony in Binder...
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True. So that would lend itself more towards a Lord Raith/Adrianna alliance, which might not have been completely mutual. I've been looking at several of the early plots, and they all seem to revolve around removing Marcone from power, thus enabling other factions to try and increase their influence in Chicago.
Maybe Harry's continual interference has kept the Circle unified longer than they would have been, had they not had a common enemy/pest.
Yeah, I suspect that Harry may be more forming a Black Council as he goes along, as a counter-reaction, rather than opposing something that already existed. Just like Martin described how the Red Court would collapse in massive infighting after every White Council victory, I imagine any organization filled up with as many Black Hats as Harry suspects to be in the Black Council would have a similar degree of internal division.
It's hard to say more than that there's some loose alliance of supernatural oldsters who are sick of the modern mortal order and want to do away with it for one reason or another, ranging from the various attempts to push Marcone out of Chicago to Aurora's insanity (did something drive her insane?) to Cowl and Kumori wanting to abolish death to more speculative goals (like my suspicion that Mavra wants to resurrect the elders of the black court; who the hell knows what Peabody wanted).
We know that there's something Cowl referred to as "the Circle", but that could mean anything from a literal organized Evil White Council to the evil-magic equivalent of an IRC chat channel.
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The irony is that he taught victor what maggie SR taught him and to finish the thought EB knew exactly what the spell could do at chicken pizza maybe he taught it to maggie
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I thought Reds cannot summon outsiders. That is why Harry is convinced a powerful mortal is working with them in PG. If White Court can summon outsideres, why didn't he assume it was them?
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mortals can only summon Outsiders. WCV can do the same as RCV, have mortal wizards summon them for their use.
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mortals can only summon Outsiders. WCV can do the same as RCV, have mortal wizards summon them for their use.
My point exactly.
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the RCV wasn't exactly the stealthiest vamps around. the WCV however are all about not being noticed. this makes me believe that Sells more than likely was a WCV/ BC asset than RCV.
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Plus, Bianca didn't know about him, and he attacked one of her assets, and stuff, like another poster here said.