Harry should Dark Hallow demon reach. With the islands defenses, it would be hard for anyone to interfere. With the islands remoteness, it is likely no one would be hurt, and Harry could just put a circle around the island anyhow. A dark hallow on demon reach would suck up all the power of all the bad nasties on the island. So in one stroke, Harry becomes more powerful and both Fae Queens and the Erlking put together, and he deletes the demon reach prison forever.And effectively becomes those things in reality too ;) all of them, all at once, in one body..... MWAAHAHAHA!
And effectively becomes those things in reality too ;) all of them, all at once, in one body..... MWAAHAHAHA!
How do we know that he would take on their natures?Combination of woj's on related subjects, All related to the same general topic. Now, I know for an entirely different reason but, I have no collection of direct evidence of that one anymore.
Combination of woj's on related subjects, All related to the same general topic. Now, I know for an entirely different reason but, I have no collection of direct evidence of that one anymore.
Where is this WOJ. I looked, could not find.Which one? I havent's slept yet and i'm a little slowing down.
Which one? I havent's slept yet and i'm a little slowing down.
FRom other thread: can we say that anything in DR is alive in the most vital sense?
I certainly would says it alive. Plus its certainly worth a shot. The payoff would be amazing, and the risk next to nothing. Worse case scenario Dresden gets nothing but Demon reach is still destroyed. Best Case Harry becomes a god.Worst case Harry becomes those things whom are free to overwhelm him utterly and use him as a puppet. until he becomes capable of holding them inside himself like a prison, just wouldn't work out too well.
Worst case Harry becomes those things whom are free to overwhelm him utterly and use him as a puppet. until he becomes capable of holding them inside himself like a prison, just wouldn't work out too well.
*the people who designed and planned to use said ritual were all crazy. the key I think is crafting them into an identity that Is which is akin to a mantle. The person in effect becomes legendary first and feeds it all into the imagined image of themselves. 'becoming' the scarecrow in reality... though if that were the case perhaps Harry just needs to learn to embrace the power from his reputation.(fyi I think the whole point of Harry writing the DF is to spread the story of himself, so his spirit/mantle matches his actual personae)
So two things.!yea, you can keep it at bay the same way he keeps the WK at bay, by not using it.
1) After consuming that much power, keeping the nasty at bay should be childs play.
2) If Harry can push it into something mantle like, then we have no problem. Harry just needs to craft a demon reach mantle that is separate from his original self. That way he isnt consumed by it.
Those who have read Day One (the Butters short story) know why this is a phenomenally bad idea.(click to show/hide)
Maxims are not physical laws. They are not certainties.can you or anyone prove its either a law or a 'maxim'? then for the intentions here I don't think it matters, it's what we have, repeatedly, from multiple angles and sources.
can you or anyone prove its either a law or a 'maxim'? then for the intentions here I don't think it matters, it's what we have, repeatedly, from multiple angles and sources.
Im not the one with the onus to prove it is a law. Im not the one making the assertion that it would do something. As the person with the positive assertion, the burden of proof is on you. And I am seeing know sources. Are you refering to clear cut absolute statements, or loose inference like the butters reference.you just asserted its a 'maxim', was gonna be nice about it but ok, prove it. Prove its a maxim. Prove it's not a metaphysical law.
Im not the one with the onus to prove it is a law. Im not the one making the assertion that it would do something. As the person with the positive assertion, the burden of proof is on you. And I am seeing know sources. Are you refering to clear cut absolute statements, or loose inference like the butters reference.Proof: The text of the books and WOJ. They're both very clear that you do not gain that kind of power without being affected by the things you're consuming.
This is a monumentally bad idea.
"You are what you eat" is a law in Dresden. Look at when Harry ate some of Kravos's power -- he took on his traits. Look at the WOJ about Goodman Grey and what would happen if he took enough of Harry's power -- he'd basically become Dresden.
In Dresden's verse, you do not gain godly power without fundamentally changing who and what you are. And if you're gaining that godly power by eating unholy nightmare monsters, you will become an unholy nightmare monster.
Proof: The text of the books and WOJ. They're both very clear that you do not gain that kind of power without being affected by the things you're consuming.
The assertion that Harry would be totally fine is the one that's contrary to everything we've been seen and told.
You are taking general statements about very specific peoples powers and then applying them piecemeal nilly willy. That doesn't hold water.
You are what you eat is a wild generalization that can literally be anything from general wisdom statement to specifically true for some specific powers. You cant just go plastering it with specific assumptions to everything. That's just....preposterous.
the inference of a general law from particular instancesneed to start paying attention... and being nicer please. :)
You are taking general statements about very specific peoples powers and then applying them piecemeal nilly willy. That doesn't hold water.No, I'm taking evidence we've seen and been told directly about taking and absorbing power from one being to another and applying it to a suggestion that Harry take and absorb power from other beings into himself.
Quote from: Inductionthe inference of a general law from particular instancesQuoteneed to start paying attention... and being nicer please. :)
Cannot imagine what you think I have said that is "unnice" Or what exactly I am not paying attention to.
Your assertion that Demonreach would alter Harry must be back up by evidence. The burden of proof is not on me. I have not obligation whatsoever to disprove your assertion. You could just as easily assert that doing the DH on DR will turn harry literally into the devil. Or that he turns into a cupcake. Or literally any set of English works you want to order in some manner. You are providing a positive statement, and I have no onus to disprove it. You have onus to prove it. Otherwise all things not disproved are held true until I disprove them, which is clearly not logical.
Cannot imagine what you think I have said that is "unnice" Or what exactly I am not paying attention to.Don's assertation for starters
Your assertion that Demonreach would alter Harry must be back up by evidence. The burden of proof is not on me.GK in TC
I have not obligation whatsoever to disprove your assertion. You could just as easily assert that doing the DH on DR will turn harry literally into the devil. Or that he turns into a cupcake. Or literally any set of English works you want to order in some manner. You are providing a positive statement, and I have no onus to disprove it. You have onus to prove it. Otherwise all things not disproved are held true until I disprove them, which is clearly not logical.you provided the positive assertion that you are what you eat is a maxim... now again don't ignore me, prove it.
No, I'm taking evidence we've seen and been told directly about taking and absorbing power from one being to another and applying it to a suggestion that Harry take and absorb power from other beings into himself.
What's preposterous is ignoring all the evidence and WOJ and people directly telling Harry that even touching the power of Demonreach is a terrible idea, and saying everything would be fine.
Harry can't even do specific things with his own power without being affected by it. Every creature in Demonreach is vastly more powerful than Harry individually. And you think that Harry can absorb all of them without being affected by it.
That is just plain not how the world of Dresden has ever worked. You don't gain power as simple as plain knowledge without being affected by it.
Shift8, we've provided several pieces of evidence and citations about what happens when you absorb power from something, both from the books and WOJ.
All you've provided is, "Nah, not good enough."
Please argue in good faith and stop ignoring everything that is contrary to your own assertion.
Sorry, but broad generalizations about a wide range of separate and unrelated magic do not somehow merge into highly specific problems from Dresden in if he does a DH on DR. You can certainly speculate that they might causes problems based on experience with other magic, but asserting that it will happen in some specific manner is not a valid statement.it's more so than 'naa, I dont' believe it.' In short our theory has more correlating evidence than yours that nothin will happen. To state a rebuttal YOU need specifics or at least some broad generalizations otherwise lol.
it's more so than 'naa, I dont' believe it.' in short our theory has more correlating evidence than yours that nothin will happen.
Never said there wasn't any reason to suspect a technical problem. But you cannot matter of factually state there will be one in the positive with the evidence you are putting forth. Its merely prudential, not certain.*rolls eyes* that's not in question, but that's not dark hallowing it either is it?
In point of fact, the GK's statement would appear to assert that there absolutely is a circumstance where Harry could harness said power without altering him.
*rolls eyes* that's not in question, but that's not dark hallowing it either is it?
Of course it is not. The point is that not all use of potentially "bad" powers causes (as if by some mystical force) necessarily bad alteration of the user. If this is true of some kind use of demon reaches power, then it cannot be absolutely inferred the DH is out of the question can it?depends heavily on your definition of 'bad' power I suppose.... I don't think its' out of the question, I'm pretty sure he IS going to use it. But unless he's in a godlike stasis between Halloweens I just don't see it not altering him.
depends heavily on your definition of 'bad' power I suppose.... I don't think its' out of the question, I'm pretty sure he IS going to use it. But unless he's in a godlike stasis between Halloweens I just don't see it not altering him.
Fair enough to be prudent of dangers, to be sure. I think he should take a wack at it though. Seems like a good way to dispose of Mab in a dumpster somewhere. It would also presumably destroy demon reach.that made me laugh too, maybe I'm punch drunk and should sleep soon, no?
It is also worth wondering if Dresden would also inherit the powers from the island spirit or whatever as well.
that made me laugh too, maybe I'm punch drunk and should sleep soon, no?
Destroy demon reach or just make it mobile though? That's the question for me. I'd say the island spirit IS the mantle if there were to be one, it's already wrapped around his consciousness in much the same fashion, without physical distance to separate the two the differences become less so. DR wouldn't need to manifest, Harr'y would effectively be said manifestation.
Sorry, but broad generalizations about a wide range of separate and unrelated magic do not somehow merge into highly specific problems from Dresden in if he does a DH on DR. You can certainly speculate that they might causes problems based on experience with other magic, but asserting that it will happen in some specific manner is not a valid statement.Yes it does, because that's how evidence-based logic works.
Not good enough is perfectly fine if what you are saying is not good enough. Everything you are saying simply implies the possibility of a problem. Not its certainty. To state a certainty you need specifics.Tautologies aren't going to get you anywhere. We're taking the well-established rules of the setting and applying them to the problem. Not "vague generalities." We're providing specific instances of people absorbing power and how it affects them, and you're ignoring the explicit, logical links.
I am very much arguing in good faith. I am not trolling you. You cant just provide vague generalities and act as if they are cosmic proof of your highly specific assertions.
Yes it does, because that's how evidence-based logic works.
From the sound of it, the only thing you'll accept as evidence is an instance of this specific thing happening, which is faulty at best.
It's like if we were talking about long falls. We're all saying, "Well, I fell 10 feet and I broke my ankle. A guy I know fell 20 feet and broke both legs. Therefore, a fall of 100 feet will do serious damage to you."
Meanwhile, you're saying, "No, you can't take those general things and apply them to the specific problem. You don't know someone who fell from 100 feet specifically, I can argue that you'll be perfectly fine after falling 100 feet."
Let's break it down again: Absorbing power from something else gives you traits of that something else. This is observed several times, across different methods, so we can logically conclude it is just something that happens when you absorb power no matter how you absorb it.
The more powerful the thing you absorb is, the more it will affect you. That's just plain logic.
The Darkhallow is absorbing power en masse.
Ergo, absorbing obscenely powerful things en masse through the Darkhallow is going to affect someone.
Tautologies aren't going to get you anywhere. We're taking the well-established rules of the setting and applying them to the problem. Not "vague generalities." We're providing specific instances of people absorbing power and how it affects them, and you're ignoring the explicit, logical links.
You're the one proposing an idea that runs contrary to what we've observed and been told about the setting by several sources, author included. We shouldn't have to sit here trying to prove that gravity is a thing just because you want to argue that flapping your arms will let you fly.
You're completely misrepresenting my, and everyone else's, arguments.
That's what I mean when I say you're not arguing in good faith. What you just wrote twists my meaning around and calls it absurd.
So far you still have not provided any backing for your claim that Harry would be fine after absorbing, once again, dozens and dozens of dark gods from Demonreach, when the books and WOJ are very clear that absorbing power from any source affects you.
It's clear at this point that no matter what anyone brings against your idea as evidence, you're just going to dismiss it in the same manner.
We've proven our point. That you refuse to accept the evidence does not disprove it.
No, by my own words, we know that absorbing power affects the person doing the absorbing.
We've seen it happen. We've been told by WOJ that it happens. We've been told by characters that it happens. It happened when Harry absorbs the power of a two-bit sorcerer who's considerably weaker than Harry himself.
You are suggesting that Harry absorb power from dozens, if not hundreds of beings each of whom is individually stronger than Harry by a magnitude and saying that won't affect him.
It's not an "assumption." It's the logical conclusion supported by facts and direct evidence from the books.
It's like you're saying that because you haven't seen direct evidence of someone eating 200 pounds of twinkies, it's only an assumption that they're going to gain weight from it and that "anything might happen."
It is immensely frustrating and frankly insulting when we go through the books, find direct evidence to prove our point, cite WOJ, and you dismiss it with, "Nah, it's just your assumption," when you have done nothing to prove your point except dismiss our arguments.