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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: TheCuriousFan on April 12, 2021, 11:41:41 AM
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This is mostly complete guesswork but it feels right to me so fuck it.
In Battle Ground as part of bringing Harry down from his murderous rage the sword of faith gets in his head and forcefully shoves Rudolph's perspective down his throat.
I felt Rudolph. Felt his terror. His agony. His confusion. His humiliation. His remorse. His sick self-hatred. I felt them all as if they were my own. I saw myself through Rudolph’s eyes, huge and vicious and deadly, implacable as an avalanche.
And back in Peace Talks there was a similar but far more forceful mechanism shown as part of Demonreach.
“Part of the process of being taken into the cells is …” I took a deep breath. “You suffer the pain you’ve inflicted on others,” I said. “It was meant to get through to the most alien of beings, why they were being imprisoned. It’s not fair. It’s not meant for people. It could hurt you. But if I don’t do it, you’re going to die.”
Why bother including such a mechanism if you intended your island prison to just hold them until the end of time? My guess is that it was intended for the same reason that the sword does it, to show the creatures trapped there the error of their ways AND to shove them in the direction of atonement and redemption. I'm also guessing that Merlin copied this mechanism from Amoracchius while designing Demonreach since he was the custodian of Amoracchius at one point.
And if I'm right about this then the White Council have drifted to the complete opposite stance while claiming to be Merlin's heirs because kill first ask questions never could hardly have been the goal of someone who designed a prison that might give a chance to even the worst monster.
So, what do you think?
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This is mostly complete guesswork but it feels right to me so fuck it.
In Battle Ground as part of bringing Harry down from his murderous rage the sword of faith gets in his head and forcefully shoves Rudolph's perspective down his throat.
And back in Peace Talks there was a similar but far more forceful mechanism shown as part of Demonreach.
Why bother including such a mechanism if you intended your island prison to just hold them until the end of time? My guess is that it was intended for the same reason that the sword does it, to show the creatures trapped there the error of their ways AND to shove them in the direction of atonement and redemption. I'm also guessing that Merlin copied this mechanism from Amoracchius while designing Demonreach since he was the custodian of Amoracchius at one point.
And if I'm right about this then the White Council have drifted to the complete opposite stance while claiming to be Merlin's heirs because kill first ask questions never could hardly have been the goal of someone who designed a prison that might give a chance to even the worst monster.
So, what do you think?
The warden can set them free probably as a last ditch defense of reality so in case that happens a bit of damage control however futile might be called for.
But it is only one of the available protocols. The warden can decide which one to use so it might just be that it only has an effect on certain specific creatures.
Or it is just added torture.
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In Battle Ground as part of bringing Harry down from his murderous rage the sword of faith gets in his head and forcefully shoves Rudolph's perspective down his throat.
Quote
I felt Rudolph. Felt his terror. His agony. His confusion. His humiliation. His remorse. His sick self-hatred. I felt them all as if they were my own. I saw myself through Rudolph’s eyes, huge and vicious and deadly, implacable as an avalanche.
My first thoughts were the angel of the Sword understands that Harry is worth saving, so he sent a message. If he is capable of feeling empathy, understanding it, and feeling shame for his reaction, he is worth saving. If Harry were merely a cold blooded killer or sociopath, he wouldn't have cared or reacted the way he did, heck he'd have felt nothing. Between that, the burn, and the hint of sulfur, Harry took the hint that he was in danger of falling off the wagon big time, controlling himself in the future is up to him.
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And if I'm right about this then the White Council have drifted to the complete opposite stance while claiming to be Merlin's heirs because kill first ask questions never could hardly have been the goal of someone who designed a prison that might give a chance to even the worst monster.
So, what do you think?
I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand what do you do with a crazy warlock? They are extremely dangerous, capable of killing even highly skilled wizards.
A wizard in a way is like a biological weapon. If one really goes bad, and lets loose, it's not just one or two people who can get killed. A wizard or warlock can summon Outsiders, demons, and do all manner of destruction.
Not only that but if a wizard uses dark magic, it actually alters who they really are.
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I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand what do you do with a crazy warlock? They are extremely dangerous, capable of killing even highly skilled wizards.
A wizard in a way is like a biological weapon. If one really goes bad, and lets loose, it's not just one or two people who can get killed. A wizard or warlock can summon Outsiders, demons, and do all manner of destruction.
Not only that but if a wizard uses dark magic, it actually alters who they really are.
All of that, but if the wizard truly intends to use dark magic, do you really think they'd have a sense of empathy upon seeing the situation through the target's eyes? That vision helped to bring Harry back to reality after he lost his head in grief.
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I agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand what do you do with a crazy warlock? They are extremely dangerous, capable of killing even highly skilled wizards.
A wizard in a way is like a biological weapon. If one really goes bad, and lets loose, it's not just one or two people who can get killed. A wizard or warlock can summon Outsiders, demons, and do all manner of destruction.
Not only that but if a wizard uses dark magic, it actually alters who they really are.
What to do with a crazy one is not that interesting, they are just too crazy to let run around.
The real question is what to do with those that are not crazy and maybe can be saved. Here the white council's stand (better save than sorry) and the knight of the cross (give everyone a chance for redemption) are diametrically opposed.
The white council's stance has a drawback. Offering no chances puts them with their back to the wall which can drive people over the edge who otherwise could have been saved. It escalates the violence.
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I think that is a good point. Forgiveness and redemption are essential. Especially as none of us is truly good.
Demonreach as purgatory is very Christian. Converting enemies to friends is very ethical. Just very hard.
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I think that is a good point. Forgiveness and redemption are essential. Especially as none of us is truly good.
Demonreach as purgatory is very Christian. Converting enemies to friends is very ethical. Just very hard.
I agree. And I also agree with Mira about the Sword somehow testing Harry, to see his reaction to Rudolph's emotions.
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I mean it could have just been Butters developing Jedi powers to go with his lightsaber.
Force Empathy would fit right in there with things like Force Push, Force Speed, etc.
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What to do with a crazy one is not that interesting, they are just too crazy to let run around.
The real question is what to do with those that are not crazy and maybe can be saved. Here the white council's stand (better save than sorry) and the knight of the cross (give everyone a chance for redemption) are diametrically opposed.
The white council's stance has a drawback. Offering no chances puts them with their back to the wall which can drive people over the edge who otherwise could have been saved. It escalates the violence.
Couple of major differences. The Knights for the most part give second chances to people who take up a Coin. Without the Coin the person is basically back to normal (wizards are different because they can form a link). A wizard who's done black magic doesn't really have a way to remove that influence like someone with a Coin. If you've murdered with magic once, you're more likely to do it again because you've been permanently corrupted.
Not saying I agree with the Council and how the do things, but wizards are similar to Angels. An Angel can fall, and be a Fallen from a single choice, and it's permanent (as far as we know). A wizard who makes bad choices falls in a similar way albeit it's probably a more gradual fall rather than a single big fall.
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Couple of major differences. The Knights for the most part give second chances to people who take up a Coin. Without the Coin the person is basically back to normal (wizards are different because they can form a link). A wizard who's done black magic doesn't really have a way to remove that influence like someone with a Coin. If you've murdered with magic once, you're more likely to do it again because you've been permanently corrupted.
Not saying I agree with the Council and how the do things, but wizards are similar to Angels. An Angel can fall, and be a Fallen from a single choice, and it's permanent (as far as we know). A wizard who makes bad choices falls in a similar way albeit it's probably a more gradual fall rather than a single big fall.
A wizards “fall” is theoretically reversible, free will is not lost. A warden would be eager to kill but a knight would be reluctant to do so if other options remain. He would try to persuade the warlock to set his magic aside for example.
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A wizards “fall” is theoretically reversible, free will is not lost. A warden would be eager to kill but a knight would be reluctant to do so if other options remain. He would try to persuade the warlock to set his magic aside for example.
There is a subtle difference, it isn't that a Knight is reluctant to kill, under the rules of the Sword, if the coin holder surrenders and gives up the coin, they have to give him or her a chance of redemption, it isn't up to them to judge, that is for the Almighty. In a fair battle where no quarter is given, they are free to kill. Wizards are not supposed to kill with magic, they have little empathy towards a kid screwing up and going down the warlock road, they have no problem with judging and cutting off heads, with few exceptions. The Knights aren't feeling empathy for coin holders, their rules are clear, or the rules governing the use of the Swords are clear, break them, and we see what happened with Murphy's misuse of the Sword of Faith. Sanya and Michael felt little empathy for Cassius, if it were solely up to them, no mercy, but it isn't, as they both clearly state when he surrendered. Also why neither had much of a problem when Harry beat him up, he wasn't playing under the same rules. You really cannot compare wizards to Holy Knights.
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There is a subtle difference, it isn't that a Knight is reluctant to kill, under the rules of the Sword, if the coin holder surrenders and gives up the coin, they have to give him or her a chance of redemption, it isn't up to them to judge, that is for the Almighty. In a fair battle where no quarter is given, they are free to kill. Wizards are not supposed to kill with magic, they have little empathy towards a kid screwing up and going down the warlock road, they have no problem with judging and cutting off heads, with few exceptions. The Knights aren't feeling empathy for coin holders, their rules are clear, or the rules governing the use of the Swords are clear, break them, and we see what happened with Murphy's misuse of the Sword of Faith. Sanya and Michael felt little empathy for Cassius, if it were solely up to them, no mercy, but it isn't, as they both clearly state when he surrendered. Also why neither had much of a problem when Harry beat him up, he wasn't playing under the same rules. You really cannot compare wizards to Holy Knights.
If you go into the finer details no but every comparison fails if you dig deep enough.
The important difference is that the wardens first thought is kill and the knights first thought is redeem. A dead person can not be saved anymore.
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With reading this thread, I have been going over in my head of how the WCouncil has behaved, thinking of them in a different light, and adding in the station of the Blackstaff, I am seeing some things that I never would have thought of before.
When Merlin created the Council, he may have made it to be a place of defense against the darkness for humanity, a place against the Outside. They had one Warden, a man in charge of the island, who helped hold the unreformed and monsters. They Council took the time and helped teach magic.
But, as with everything, time and humanity changed the ideals of Merlin. Instead of welcoming all, the Council has become murderous mens club. (I had another label for them, but that would get a TT started.) And added men to the
So now the Council has cleaned itself up so much and became so political that it doesn't know how do deal with teaching those that have used black magic. As example, Harry going to live with Eb. They wanted him to kill Harry.
I'm beginning to wonder if Langtry is one of the big bads of the story. Pushing the Council into this perfect nation idea.
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If you go into the finer details no but every comparison fails if you dig deep enough.
The important difference is that the wardens first thought is kill and the knights first thought is redeem. A dead person can not be saved anymore.
Wardens have a choice, Holy Knights do not, you don't have to dig very deep at all. First rule of the Holy Swords and the Knights who wield them, redemption is possible, it is for the Almighty to judge, not a Knight who is a mere human. If the one holding the coin, surrenders and gives up the coin, they are let go to live the rest of his or her life, then seeking redemption becomes his or her choice.
A Warden on the other hand can take the head of a warlock after a soul gaze, the Senior Council hardly bothers with trials anymore. With them the assumption is most warlocks cannot be redeemed, they are too tainted and it is better for everyone that they be executed.
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A wizards “fall” is theoretically reversible, free will is not lost. A warden would be eager to kill but a knight would be reluctant to do so if other options remain. He would try to persuade the warlock to set his magic aside for example.
I disagree with this, and so do the books. Wardens aren't blood thirsty killers. They actually often put themselves in great danger to take the warlock alive for the purpose of trial. Is Carlos "eager" to kill? Was Morgan? What appears as eagerness is nothing more than battle hardened people who have experienced battles, and seen just what black magic can do. They do what the do because they must, not because they enjoy it which is what eagerness suggests.
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I disagree with this, and so do the books. Wardens aren't blood thirsty killers. They actually often put themselves in great danger to take the warlock alive for the purpose of trial. Is Carlos "eager" to kill? Was Morgan? What appears as eagerness is nothing more than battle hardened people who have experienced battles, and seen just what black magic can do. They do what the do because they must, not because they enjoy it which is what eagerness suggests.
They think they must. And the Merlin was quite eager to kill and to get done with the formalities as soon as possible. The council does not believe in second chances, the knights do.
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They think they must. And the Merlin was quite eager to kill and to get done with the formalities as soon as possible. The council does not believe in second chances, the knights do.
The Knights aren't facing what the Council is. Do you think they would give second chances to a Denarian if they wouldn't drop a Coin unless killed? That would be apples to apples. You don't get reformed from Black Magic. It's with you forever, unlike a Coin. Knights don't give second chances to Black Court Vamps. Michael obliterated an entire nest of them.
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The Knights aren't facing what the Council is. Do you think they would give second chances to a Denarian if they wouldn't drop a Coin unless killed? That would be apples to apples. You don't get reformed from Black Magic. It's with you forever, unlike a Coin. Knights don't give second chances to Black Court Vamps. Michael obliterated an entire nest of them.
But do Black Court Vamps even have souls anymore? After all they are the walking dead. No, Knights do not give second chances to Denarians who don't give up their coin, but neither do they kill them out right unless they have to.
Wardens are not blood thirsty killers, however they don't hesitate in the case of most warlocks.
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The Knights aren't facing what the Council is. Do you think they would give second chances to a Denarian if they wouldn't drop a Coin unless killed?
Sure. Michael was very patient with Harry and Lasciel. Gave second chances to Nicodemus and so on.
That would be apples to apples. You don't get reformed from Black Magic.
That is not true. Even the white council doesn’t always think so otherwise they would not have that whole construction with the sword of Damocles and so on. There is always free will. It is just extremely difficult and the council usually does not want to take the risk. But people like the gatekeeper did approve what Harry was doing for Molly.
It's with you forever, unlike a Coin. Knights don't give second chances to Black Court Vamps. Michael obliterated an entire nest of them.
Black court vampires are not human anymore, they have no free will. They don’t even have souls. This is really comparing apples with oranges.
A warlock is still a human being.
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That is not true. Even the white council doesn’t always think so otherwise they would not have that whole construction with the sword of Damocles and so on.
It absolutely is true. The corruption from the black magic is permanent. Sure they have free will, but the corruption will always be there. The person can try to improve themselves, but that corruption will be with them. The Council has "special circumstances", like self defense, but that's about it. Molly basically got lucky because Harry took the risk of accepting responsibility for her, and her father was a Knight.
If the Council had many many more wardens, and not stretched thin because of all the other stuff going on in the world, then I think they could afford to be more merciful. Giving more people a chance to work to improve themselves (even with the corruption there). The problem is they don't. A single warlock can do an insane amount of damage. Look what Eb did to Ortega's place... Eb has killed hundreds of people with the wave of his hand. I could only imagine if 13 of them got together...... The Council isn't willing to take that risk, and although I can see where you're coming from, I can see where the White Council is too.
A warlock is still a human being.
So was Hitler
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So was Hitler
So, you are on the "let's kill Hitler as a child" side of the fence?
I do agree about the problem of few wardens and dangerous warlocks, but I don't think Eb is a good example. Not all warlocks are as powerful, and many of those killed by the Wardens' swords are young and inexperienced.
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So, you are on the "let's kill Hitler as a child" side of the fence?
I do agree about the problem of few wardens and dangerous warlocks, but I don't think Eb is a good example. Not all warlocks are as powerful, and many of those killed by the Wardens' swords are young and inexperienced.
Yes, and redeemable. Even Hitler, had he made some different choices when young, still would have been a charismatic psychopath, but perhaps a less dangerous one. However this is where choices become very complex, because it wasn't just his choices, but those around him choosing to blindly follow a charismatic psychopath, and do horrible things.
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It absolutely is true. The corruption from the black magic is permanent. Sure they have free will, but the corruption will always be there. The person can try to improve themselves, but that corruption will be with them. The Council has "special circumstances", like self defense, but that's about it. Molly basically got lucky because Harry took the risk of accepting responsibility for her, and her father was a Knight.
She had politics on her side but that wouldn't be enough if it was really a black and white thing.
Age also plays a role. The younger they are the less fixed they are.
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She had politics on her side but that wouldn't be enough if it was really a black and white thing.
Age also plays a role. The younger they are the less fixed they are.
Yes, and no, for the most part one would think the younger the talented are the more redeemable. Then again, it may depend on how far down the slippery slope they have already slid. A thirteen year old can be a bully by nature, or even an eleven or twelve year old, not knowing any better and discovering that they have power to force others into complying with them, they could be already too far gone by the time they are found out.
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So, you are on the "let's kill Hitler as a child" side of the fence?
No, because Hitler as a child hadn't done anything while a warlock already has. I mean if the first law is violated for example, they have already murdered someone. Three of the other laws are where you have basically raped someone's mind or body, causing permanent damage of some sort depending on how much you'd done. The other laws are basically getting caught messing with weapons of mass destruction (messing with Time, Outsiders).
The Council does these things because they know it's just too easy for a person to abuse magic. Wizards have an unfair advantage over roughly 99.999999999% of the population. The expression power tends to corrupt comes to mind, and once you've abused that power, you're likely to do so again. The Council's laws aren't perfect, and I agree that it's unfair in a lot of ways... But it's pretty difficult to monitor someone who uses magic, and ensure they aren't abusing it. Morgan was an incredibly gifted wizard, and a great deal of his energies were spent watching Dresden... Time wasted where he could have been defending others for example.
I don't think Eb is a good example. Not all warlocks are as powerful, and many of those killed by the Wardens' swords are young and inexperienced.
It's true that Eb is head and shoulders above most wizards, however Jim said that one of the things that makes warlocks so dangerous it that magic is about belief, and because they are basically insane, they can do some really scary, and crazy stuff. Their insanity makes them capable of really destructive magic. Look at the Asian teen who was beheaded. He had absolutely zero magical training, none. Yet he was making his own family members commit suicide with mind control. Imagine what he could have been doing with another 10 or 20 or 50 years of knowledge, experience, and training. That's what the Council is afraid of. Someone who's smart enough to avoid detection, and gaining that experience. That's why they stop them before they can get to that level.
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Yes, I understand that, groinkick. As long as we agree that the system is sometimes unfair.
I have a feeling Harry will find a way to change things in the future. Perhaps one of the weapons on his arsenal (or even a prisoner) can reduce the power level of warlocks, thus making them less dangerous and allowing them to keep living. Or something, this was just a guess.
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Yes, I understand that, groinkick. As long as we agree that the system is sometimes unfair.
I have a feeling Harry will find a way to change things in the future. Perhaps one of the weapons on his arsenal (or even a prisoner) can reduce the power level of warlocks, thus making them less dangerous and allowing them to keep living. Or something, this was just a guess.
Of course it's unfair. I think another way of keeping track of trouble makers would be to craft those cuffs like Nicodemus used. Have it like an ankle cuff or something. If they leave it on, they will be ok. Remove it, and use magic, and they won't like what happens.
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Of course it's unfair. I think another way of keeping track of trouble makers would be to craft those cuffs like Nicodemus used. Have it like an ankle cuff or something. If they leave it on, they will be ok. Remove it, and use magic, and they won't like what happens.
Except that you will create a group of very resentful people who can be used against the council by anyone who manages to free them.
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Except that you will create a group of very resentful people who can be used against the council by anyone who manages to free them.
Off with their heads it is then.
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Off with their heads it is then.
Without any hope of clemency they will become desperate and ruthless. Any warlock who survives the first few decades will become very dangerous as well with a lot of experience in fighting and hiding. The white councils policy is also a self fulfilling prophesy. And some of them will survive. The world is too big and the white council too weak in big parts of it.
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Without any hope of clemency they will become desperate and ruthless. Any warlock who survives the first few decades will become very dangerous as well with a lot of experience in fighting and hiding. The white councils policy is also a self fulfilling prophesy. And some of them will survive. The world is too big and the white council too weak in big parts of it.
I gave you an example of clemency. They give up magic forever, go on living normal lives. You said that would make them bitter... Ok then, the answer is to get rid of them before they become too much trouble.
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I gave you an example of clemency. They give up magic forever, go on living normal lives. You said that would make them bitter... Ok then, the answer is to get rid of them before they become too much trouble.
Giving up magic is one thing. Thorned Manacles are quite something else.
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Giving up magic is one thing. Thorned Manacles are quite something else.
I meant an equivalent. All it would do is ensure they don't cast magic. I mean what is the alternative? They don't have enough wardens to babysit, and ensure they aren't violating the laws of magic. They could lock them up in a prison for long periods of time I guess. There really isn't a lot of options with people who can create destruction with the power of thought, and will.
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The other catch of your system is that it leaves them as easy targets both for recruitment and completely helpless against anything that has a reason to want to eat a magic user in particular.
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The other catch of your system is that it leaves them as easy targets both for recruitment and completely helpless against anything that has a reason to want to eat a magic user in particular.
I mean what really is a viable option? They are walking, talking, weapons of mass destruction. Your option is to kill them, disarm them, or let them walk free. They would literally require 24 hour supervision for a very long period of time to make sure they don't cause destruction.
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I meant an equivalent. All it would do is ensure they don't cast magic. I mean what is the alternative? They don't have enough wardens to babysit, and ensure they aren't violating the laws of magic. They could lock them up in a prison for long periods of time I guess. There really isn't a lot of options with people who can create destruction with the power of thought, and will.
The alternative is therapy and love in a safe and stable environment for people who have a realistic hope for improvement. Any other solutions are bound to fail. It is also a matter of mentality. The knights are prepared to accept some failures if they can save someone, the white council is prepared to kill more people than necessary to be on the safe side. And they don’t want to spend the resources.
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The alternative is therapy and love in a safe and stable environment for people who have a realistic hope for improvement. Any other solutions are bound to fail. It is also a matter of mentality. The knights are prepared to accept some failures if they can save someone, the white council is prepared to kill more people than necessary to be on the safe side. And they don’t want to spend the resources.
The Knights don't have to worry about Fallen summoning He Who Walks Behind. You cannot make a fair comparison because the threats, and circumstances are completely different.
Harry required years of constant supervision from someone. The Council actually gives this option to wizards. Most are not willing to look after a potential warlock because they know two things:
1. It really could get them killed.
2. Their failure would mean innocent people die.
It would be like willing to go to sleep under the same roof as a possible serial killer. How many want to take that kind of gamble? Would you?
The most dangerous people wouldn't be the frothing at the mouth, obvious warlocks with no hope of redemption. It would be the ones who you aren't sure about. Those are the ones you have to worry about burning you alive in your own bed after a nice dinner.
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I mean what really is a viable option? They are walking, talking, weapons of mass destruction. Your option is to kill them, disarm them, or let them walk free. They would literally require 24 hour supervision for a very long period of time to make sure they don't cause destruction.
Or attempt a therapy program, you have more options than just stalk them 24/7, the observer doesn't also have to be 100% capable of killing them them at any given moment.
The Knights don't have to worry about Fallen summoning He Who Walks Behind. You cannot make a fair comparison because the threats, and circumstances are completely different.
I mean they do, there's no special rule saying denarians can't summon things after giving up their coin, they do it anyway because they believe attempting redemption is the right thing to do.
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Or attempt a therapy program
Do you have this approach as well for real life murderers? Just some therapy? If they violate the first law, they are already literal murderers from the start.
I mean they do, there's no special rule saying denarians can't summon things after giving up their coin, they do it anyway because they believe attempting redemption is the right thing to do.
Because when they give up the Coin they are giving up the corrupting force, which doesn't happen from corrupting magic. Also very few known wizards take up a Coin, so no threat of summoning an Outsider once they give up the Coin.
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Do you have this approach as well for real life murderers? Just some therapy? If they violate the first law, they are already literal murderers from the start.
Actually yes. If they are deemed not responsible for their deeds due to mental illness or something like that they go to special clinics. It is forced therapy of course but what use is it to send them to jail?
And the clinic is closed because you can not let them loose but it is not a jail. In some respects it is worse than jail but in other respects it is not.
No use having all the mentally ill in the normal prison system.
Just some therapy is a misnomer. Lot of criminals in Holland prefer just jail actually. It is not like oh give them some yoga lessons and let them loose.
Because that is what warlocks are, if we want to cure them we agree they are mentally ill. The compulsion to break laws even if it is not in their best interest can be seen as a mental illness.
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Actually yes. If they are deemed not responsible for their deeds due to mental illness or something like that they go to special clinics. It is forced therapy of course but what use is it to send them to jail?
And the clinic is closed because you can not let them loose but it is not a jail. In some respects it is worse than jail but in other respects it is not.
No use having all the mentally ill in the normal prison system.
Just some therapy is a misnomer. Lot of criminals in Holland prefer just jail actually. It is not like oh give them some yoga lessons and let them loose.
Because that is what warlocks are, if we want to cure them we agree they are mentally ill. The compulsion to break laws even if it is not in their best interest can be seen as a mental illness.
Mental illness, yes, but the White Council is of the belief that only if caught early and in rare cases it can be cured.. They are just too dangerous, so they prefer to put warlocks down, not unlike a rabid dog.
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Mental illness, yes, but the White Council is of the belief that only if caught early and in rare cases it can be cured.. They are just too dangerous, so they prefer to put warlocks down, not unlike a rabid dog.
We tend not to do that with rabid humans. Especially not if we think we can save them. The Merlin told Harry that it was a waste of resources to try such a thing. Not that it was impossible or dangerous but that it was a waste of resources.
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We tend not to do that with rabid humans. Especially not if we think we can save them. The Merlin told Harry that it was a waste of resources to try such a thing. Not that it was impossible or dangerous but that it was a waste of resources.
Yup and that is exactly how the Council sees young warlocks, rabid humans. So for them it is a waste of resources to give them a trial let alone try to rehab them and risk the fall out from a failure, not just of the qualified wizard who will die with the young warlock under the Doom, but the harm the young warlock would cause before stopped.
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Yup and that is exactly how the Council sees young warlocks, rabid humans. So for them it is a waste of resources to give them a trial let alone try to rehab them and risk the fall out from a failure, not just of the qualified wizard who will die with the young warlock under the Doom, but the harm the young warlock would cause before stopped.
And that was not the merlins argument. While the gatekeeper thought it worth trying the Merlin was like we need you for the war, get in line.
Because the danger of Molly becoming Kemmler size warlock was not that big even if Harry was not going to kill her when she broke the law again.
For the Merlin it even might have opened an opportunity to kill Harry.
It was just the merlins instinct that told him kill and don’t waste time. And that was the original point. Trying to save Molly was not that dangerous as some in this forum seem to think, the senior council did not think it that dangerous. They were just emotionally against it. At least the Merlin was.
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I mean I'm not entirely sure that it's "not dangerous" she has an incredible natural talent for Neuromancy. Molly on Darkside would be a fucking nightmare. The only reason she's salvaged is because Harry got to her so early.
It's also worth noting that during the trial Langtry has Peabody whispering in his ear, so it's probably not entirely him.
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I mean I'm not entirely sure that it's "not dangerous" she has an incredible natural talent for Neuromancy. Molly on Darkside would be a fucking nightmare. The only reason she's salvaged is because Harry got to her so early.
It's also worth noting that during the trial Langtry has Peabody whispering in his ear, so it's probably not entirely him.
Not as dangerous as say corpstaker. A group of wardens could have taken her out easily, she only became real dangerous after the mantle.
Harry could have taken her out any time during her apprenticeship.
Getting her early was of course in the calculation. The longer they are set in their ways, the older they are as well, the more difficult it becomes.
And yes, Peabody was a factor as well. We don’t know how much but he probably made it worse.
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Because that is what warlocks are, if we want to cure them we agree they are mentally ill. The compulsion to break laws even if it is not in their best interest can be seen as a mental illness.
I don't agree to that at all. We are talking about supernatural energies warping their mind. Difficult to apply human psychology when the supernatural is involved.
"The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain. Yah you don’t go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it’s very very bad for you. " - Jim
"Use of black magic warps your mind" - Jim
I will admit though, that Jim has left it up for debate on purpose.
"As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well. :) There’s something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other. But it’s going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there’s no sense in ruining the fun. :)"
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I don't agree to that at all. We are talking about supernatural energies warping their mind. Difficult to apply human psychology when the supernatural is involved.
Not at all. The symptoms are pretty similar. Our tales of demonic possession are based on cases of mental illness.
And a lot of therapies are trying to change or to let patients better handle their personalities, in magical terms their nature.
"The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain. Yah you don’t go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it’s very very bad for you. " - Jim
"Use of black magic warps your mind" - Jim
Like a mental illness or even just brain damage can do.
I will admit though, that Jim has left it up for debate on purpose.
"As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well. :) There’s something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other. But it’s going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there’s no sense in ruining the fun. :)"
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Problem, this "mental illness" requires lots of treatment, often cannot be cured, and those doing the treatment face fatal consequences if they fail to cure... So there are few "doctors and nurses" out there willing to take a would be warlock as an apprentice.
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Well the first step has got to be removing the death sentence for the mage who tries and fails to redeem the youngsters. Having to bet your life on whether a troubled teen will make any further mistakes is a real nonstarter.
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Well the first step has got to be removing the death sentence for the mage who tries and fails to redeem the youngsters. Having to bet your life on whether a troubled teen will make any further mistakes is a real nonstarter.
I agree, though I can see a couple of possible reasons for the rule. One would be a power hungry wizard using a young warlock for his or her own ends.. As in I doubt that it would have bothered Justin much if both Harry and Elaine went warlock as long as he could control them. It might also discourage a less competent wizard from taking on the task and failing, making matters a lot worse.