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61
Spending time with Sarissa may have touched the teeny tiny spark of Mab's mother love.  I just can't reconcile the idea that Mab was fanning the wee spark of a soul into a little flame, by spending time with Sarissa, while at the same time she was visiting tortures beyond comprehension on Lloyd Slate. (NOT defending Slate or saying he wasn't due some serious punishment.)  I just think soul-growth on weekends would be negated by torture through the work week.

Maybe...the WoJ does say that a human can lose their soul. I'm not sure if that was meant metaphorically though (see my note on the Denarians).

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...

Bob says that it's soul exchanging so wouldn't that mean that even if interacting with Mortals gave you bits of soul you would swap some back?

Hmmm...

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

So, it is possible, just possible mind you, that Mab can be changed. Maybe, it is even possible to rekindle her soul. According to Mother summer, change in immortals did happened and as we can see with Odin/Santa, such evolution did happened, but it takes a lot of time. Is Odin transforming into Santa is a soul changed or a mantle change is anyone's guess but change in immortals did happened, that is for sure.

I expect that Mab have to be willing to change. Changing a vanilla mortal without his/her consent is already hard. Trying to changed Mab against her wil will be impossible. I don't expect the rules in the DV is not to much different from the real world in this regard, so it is just simple sense.

I did not believe however that just Sarrissa and Harry is enough to changed Mab, not in such short a time and with so little interaction. Especially if Mab don't really want it. She told Maeve that fulfilling your purpose is not slavery, so I assume she is quite satisfied with her current circumstances.

It's not stated anywhere in CD that Mab has a soul. The only mention of it was in the KC WoJ and he says he isn't sure. I'll grant that it's ambiguous.

The WoJ specifically does not state that Mab is unchangeable. In fact it specifically states that beings without Free Will can become something more. That's the whole point of my theory.

I think that the change that Odin went through with the Kringle Mantle is waaay different than the "growing a soul" change. For one it doesn't really make sense it the context of MW's quote. After all she changed (she became Baba Yaga) so why is she dissing Mab for interacting with mortals too much? Also, neither Odin nor MW gained Free Will from their changes. It also doesn't make sense with the WoJ about the beings themselves not changing but our understanding of them changing. Gaining Free Will and a soul is very much a change of the being.

I don't think Mab has to be willing. The process of convincing a human and giving a being without a soul a soul are two very different things. The mortals aren't trying to convince Mab to change. That would be impossible. They are just unconciously giving a soul. No convincing involved at all. 

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

As I remember there was some controversial problems with earlier book that bugs me, but I would have to look after them to get some proves. But one way or another as a good Catholic I decline sola scriptura philosophy and takes WoJ as part of canon itself ;) Therefore I believe that Mab's behaviour in CD doesn't prove that she has her soul. She can have feeling - soulless doesn't mean emotionless, she can have memories of her mortal life. That isn't contrary to her mantle. After all in Winter lone wolf dies, but pack survievs. Winter is cruel, but it isn't mad cruelty. Maeve lost her soul too, but she didn't lose her feelings.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

62
Freeing yourself from the problems arising from having a soul and strong emotions isn't the same as being willing to lose your soul forever. If Mab was once human, it makes sense that she'd tuck that little bit of her away and hold on to it. I'd guess that Maeve was the first time in a millennium that Mab has made a choice that was potentially the wrong one based on emotion.

I support the "Mab has a soul that is still somewhat detectable" crowd, but I think we're in a unique position to see the one time it has really meant something.

I can get her wanting to keep it after she first gets the Mantle. After 900 years of the Mantle chipping away at her soul you'd think she'd simply stop caring.  Mab is pragmatic.

Unless she made an oath or something...

63
seriously, do you think the woman who became Mab grew more intelligent, ruthless, cunning, and relentless as the mantle took over or was she always one kick arse biotch from heck which is why she got the job?

I think it's the latter.

then the explanation for why she still has part of her soul is simple.. she's too dang stubborn not too.

she just won't give up.. not to nemesis, not to the outsiders, and not to her own nature. She will be what she wishes to be and heck helps whomever gets in her way.

 ;D

Well Lily wasn't exactly "kick arse" and she got the job. Molly is arguably "kick arse" but she wasn't a first option. Sarrissa didn't really seem "kick arse" either.

I do agree with you though.

Though...why would the Mab described in the WoJ's care if she lost her soul?

64
It is more like Harry is now Mr. Winter rather than the other way around.

About Mab's soul. Mab spends time with Sarrissa like a few hours a year? And I suspect she did that to make sure that there is backup for WL position if it is nessasary. That is not enough to rekindle a soul like Mab. Mab's interactions with Harry is not long enough or intense enough to rekindle Mab's soul either.

It is possible that these interactions helps in slowing down the total subversion of Mab's mortal soul. What we saw in CD, if it is a spark of Mab's soul at all, is just what is left. To expect that prolong interactions with Harry and other mortals will eventually rekindle Mab's soul in just a few decades is extremely unlikely. Given enough time and nurture perhaps, like a thousand years of constant effort, maybe it is possible, but in just a century or two? and only a few hours a year? Not likely. And Mab herself will have to want it, which I don't think is the case. She seems to be content enough.

Changes did come to immortals, like what Mother summer said. But for immortals, those changes happens in hundreds, even thousands of years, if it ever happened at all and the immortal is certainly going to react badly to it.

We shall see if this is even possible. If Harry is able to do the same thing to the Winter knight mantle as what he did to laschiel's shadow, than we will know for sure that changing an immortal by prolong exposure to mortals is possible.

Maybe it wasn't just Sarrissa, maybe it started long before Sarrissa was even born. We don't have enough information (also note that Sarrissa is her daughter. Perhaps that aided as well). I beleive it was stated that Mab has been Winter Queen for a thousand years?

Why does she have to want it?

How do you explain the clashing WoJ's and MW's statement?

  I stand by what I said.. We understand Mab more so she seems like more..

How do you explain the WoJ?

65
Probably slowly built with her relationship with Sarissa, and really started making an impact on her in the last decade?

It's not a big enough change that it would alter her day-to-day behavior, I think. Just when drastic emotional decisions (ie having to kill your daughter) had to be made.

Maybe it started making an impact even earlier? Perhaps that's how Nemesis got in...Mab let her heart rule her head and made an emotional decision instead of a rational one...

66
Though let's face it, there's a difference between "best troops" which are assets in the war, and "daughter" which has, apparently, an actual emotional connection.

Yes? The quote specifically says that she would sacrifice every creature in Winter and she wouldn't even need to add sugar to her tea afterwards.

I really like the idea that Mab's soul had been reduced to the point where it was barely a glowing ember, but recently her increased contact with mortals has fanned it into at least a weak, guttering flame. Rings true for me.

Let's just hope she knows enough to keep a lid on it and not let it burn much brighter than it is now though. I doubt she will, but it could be a rather bad thing at this juncture...

How far back is "recently"?

67
   I do not think Mab is any different from what she was or that she has become something more.  I think simply that we and Harry understand her better.  We understand what is at stake at the Gates, the perpetual war, the losses that Winter makes on a regular basis, we are getting Mab's point of view, something we really never had before.  When pushed by Harry, Mab allowed us to see that there  is a feeling side to her, unlike Titania who sheds a river of tears for Aurora, Mab's grief was a quiet silence. Mab knew that Maeve had to die, but while she didn't shirk from her duty to do it, she still is capable of love and does grieve for her only daughter.  In short, though Harry should never underestimate her, let down his guard against her, fear her any less for what she is capable of, she is less scary now.

I think that's unlikely because of this WoJ:

Quote
<snip>
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

As far as she's concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities. 

(And by the way--don't think Titania is much better.  When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts.  At least Mab is up front about it.  Usually.)

Sacrifice her best troops?  Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate.  And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter.  Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--

--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe.  In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior.  And that's all kinds of bad.

But hey.  It's probably not that.  I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?

Jim

Wow...how the heck did I forget to post that  :o.

68
I like to think of the Dresdenverse soul as source of light.  A typical mortal's soul shines bright, and is the shape of their body, for lack of a better form.

Like Bob has described, mortals swap bits of their soul's constantly. When they hug, emote, get jiggy, or whatever else brings them close.

I think for beings like Mab, who started out with a mortal soul, their soul slowly fades over time.  Maybe not in size, but in brightness.  Like a light fading.  Eventually, like Butcher describes it, it can seem to completely dissipate, where its no longer there.

I think in Mab's case, and most of the Fae, they still retain their soul initially, but it fades.  But I think there's still enough there to interact with other souls around them.

In this case, Mab has had regular interaction with Sarissa for years, and I'm sure on some level, they've either shared or reflected each other's souls.  Mab has also had more contact with the mortal world through Harry, who we all know is big on soul.  And she's now bonded to Harry through the WK mantle ceremony, and the mantle itself.

So the idea that any remnant soul hasn't been affected by those around her seems unlikely.  It seems more likely that whatever soul she has left has been influenced by Sarissa, Harry, and any other mortals.  And since Sarissa and Harry both seem to be big softies, I'd say that's had a softening affect on Mab.

I don't know that she's gotten her soul 'back', so much as what she had left has been slightly rekindled by her relations with mortals.  I don't think she's going soft and fuzzy on us any time soon, but I'd say it allows her enough to remember the feelings she might once have had.  The light of her soul might still be dim, but it might be brighter than before.

Yes that's probably the more likely option. It fits with the KC signing thing perfectly. 

So she still had a very very small ember of a soul left but it wasn't enough to actually influence her. However, she then interacted with mortals to much and they began to give her more soul.

On the one hand, she can't kill her own daughter.  On the other hand, she has her daughter killed by her assassin.  That's still pretty damned cold.

Well Jim did say he wasn't sure whether she had some small spark left or not. Maybe she has enough soul to not be able to kill Maeve but not enough to enable her emotions to completely overtake her head.

I understand your point, but ... I took it to mean that had Mab changed, she might have figured out a way to work around Maeve's infection rather than have her killed. 

The fact that she was having the WL replaced is the important part, not who did it.  So I don't see her as having changed or become something more (or something else).  I just see it as her not wanting to do it, and that's within her ability to choose.

As to her soul, you have to be careful about what you mean.  Harry using Soulfire can use up his soul and cease to exist.  This is not the same thing as losing your soul.  In the context of Mab I took Jim's answer to mean damnation (losing her soul to the search for power) vs. keeping your soul (for the northbound train).

Who's to say Mab didn't try to find out a way to cure Maeve? Also, see my reply to Peregrine.

And it wasn't just having someone else do it. Mab sounds pretty sad in the book about Maeves death.

That part of the WoJ was pretty weird. I'm not sure which part was metaphorical and which part wasn't. I thought humans would always have a soul/Free Will no matter how far down they went. The Knight still try to redeem the really old, evil Denarians after all.

69
DF Reference Collection / Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« on: March 04, 2013, 07:33:18 PM »
I spoilered the initial theory because it's kind of big and I don't want people to miss my revisions:

(click to show/hide)

EDIT 2: okay, so with the feedback from the thread so far, I'm revising my theory slightly.

When Mab became Winter Queen she "became the fun-loving Mab we know today": basically she made enough Choices over time that either her soul was extinguished or an extremely small barely glowing ember. For all practical purposes it doesn't matter since even if she did have the ember it wasn't enough to influence her decisions at all.

Then at some time (possibly beginning with Sarrisa) she began interacting with Mortals too much. They then either gave her a soul back (but only a little) or fanned the ember until it was a guttering flame (possibly this was through soul exchanging as described by Bob in White Night).

70
DFRPG / Re: Relations between Summer Court and Black Court
« on: March 02, 2013, 11:58:14 PM »
Hell, Grevane is cartoonishly evil. It'd be amusing if he wasn't so horrifying. Like if Cobra Commander suddenly broke into Joe's base and slaughtered them. The episode ends with Destro and Dr. Mindbender playing soccer with Scarlett's head.

Heh. Yeah.

I will now summarize Victor Sells, Grevane, Corpsetaker, the Naagloshii, Evil!Bob, the snake denarian, and Lord Raith in one sentence:

I AM AWESOME bla bla bla YOU SUCK bla bla bla I LOVE BEING A DICK bla bla bla etc.

It gets kind of one-note after a while  :P

71
DFRPG / Re: Relations between Summer Court and Black Court
« on: March 02, 2013, 11:40:58 PM »
On the subjective vs objective thing...it's worth noting that in the Dresdenverse Jim seems to be going for Objective good and evil:

Quote
The topic has devolved to Hitler.  As soon as it gets to drugs or Hitler, that's symptomatic of a thread that is about to die (or at least *should*).

I think the points being raised about the relative values of good and evil have merits on either side of the argument.  It's a big, complicated issue--you can tell, because we've all been arguing about it since we got a larynx, and a huge chunk of people on the planet /still/ don't pay much more than lip service to "good."

There's something to be said for identifying good and evil as tags applied to someone else--beauty is in the of the beholder, after all.  It stands to reason that therefore ugliness is as well.  We see something, and we make a judgment.  Is this pretty?  Is this hideous?  We pick an answer, and label it "pretty" or "not pretty."  But not everyone can agree on what is and isn't pretty.  It's subjective to an external viewpoint.

On the other hand, I don't subscribe to the "world of all grays" philosophy, either, because I have Photoshop.  You can make any shade of gray that you want--but as you start changing those RBG values around, take a look at what happens.  Grey goes black WAY before you get to the actual "value" of black.  Technically, yeah, it's grey.  But looking at it, it's as close to black as makes no never mind.

Evil's out there.   People walk into it all the time.  Some of them do it with their eyes open, but the majority just sort of drift down the gradient into the dark.  They're like a lobster being cooked in a slowly heated kettle of water--they begin to lose their sensitivity to the increasing intensity, and before they know it they're breathing through a plastic helmet and choking people to death with their brain.

Apparently, I get philosophical when I'm sleep-depped.

Jim

You can see examples of this in-universe too. Beings like Grevane and HWWB are about as evil as you can get without being cartoonish.

72
Sorry, that should be "reverence", not "reference".

No, I mean...THE Terry Pratchett, the creator of the discworld books... asked you what the secret of your sexu-I mean. Wat

Wat.

Wat. 

 :o

73
The first time I met him, he asked me what the secret of my sexual success was.  That kind of disinclined me to excessive reference.

Wat

74
Because a lot of times they were links to external websites, pasted in to prove a posters point.  And more were lost in the purge than I think anyone knew would get lost.  There were close to a thousand pages of spoiler threads, nothing was ever deleted.  And people could pull a link from a thread with a key word search and never really know what thread it was in, or more the point how far back it was.  People made an effort for the most recent pages, but page 875...you don't think about it so much.  There was also some loss I believe when the site migrated to a new server.  There were some great big stuttering crashes around that time, and I think gobs were lost then.

But wasn't there some kind of advance warning before the purge? I would think people would try their best to find them by typing "jim butcher" into advance search if they knew they were going to be deleted...

75
Why are some of the WoJ's only linked anyways? Is it because of space?

I also never got why so many WoJ's were lost with the forum purge. I would have thought people would have been hoarding those things like they were gold.

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