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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Lost Merlin on March 20, 2018, 07:05:11 PM
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First, This is not meant to upset anyone or start a argument. (Yes, I know things that start with this sentence usually end in arguments any way) Secondly, I want honest answers of what we think Jim will do not necessarily your own pet theories that you wish would come true.
Okay, My question/projection. How much do you think Time Travel will play a role in the DV/DF moving forward?
My Opinion is that it will not play a huge role. I think that time travel will wrap up some lose ends in the time travel book and not really be heard or used much more then already has been done so (GateKeeper's "Suggestions", Attack in CD).
Please let me know what you think and thanks for keeping it Civil. :)
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Known instances of time magic so far include Proven Guilty (the Gatekeeper's warning to Dresden) and Cold Days (the assault on Demonreach). I'm not up on the short stories like I should be, so if I'm missing something from them, please holler it out.
Depending on how Butcher decides to set up alternate universes in Mirror Mirror, Time Travel might be involved, but I think he'd keep them as separate plot mechanisms. Why use two good magical mechanics in a story when you can milk two stories out of them?
I think Harry will wind up time traveling. There's a law of magic against it, and Harry is oh so good at breaking things...
I don't think it will tie into the BAT unless it's used to correct a mistake that caused the apocalypse, and I hope that doesn't happen.
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Honest Answer:
There is a time travel plot on a scale in which someone from the present goes back into the past to assume and become ourMab. Harry will finally figure out who Mab is and of course the person who went back in time to become her.
Hint: Murphy. However, Ms. Duck argued it was Molly.
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This should be a poll.
I say one time travel story in one book that has no real impact on character origins but reveals some details of events during the series so far.
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Honestly, I also think it will only really come into play in the time travel book. IMO time travel is something that should only be used very sparingly.
My pet theory is that he will also time travel at some point in the BAT using what he learned in the TT book to correct a mistake or impart important knowledge to his past self. I'm guessing the grey council or white will figure out they have to break that law and in the course of discussing it they will discover that Harry already broke it.
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UNDOING CHANGES
lol..... Time travel back to the time of Changes.
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Hey, I had future Harry overlayed on Harry talking to Mrs spunklecrief in changes. I also had a time plot in the background centered on the exact daggers used in the sacrifice at ci. I think there were shenanigans involved in which dagger was used.
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I think that Time Travel will be restricted to the book in which it happens.
I think that the Time Travel will not be done by Harry's own power; he'll be sent to do a very specific thing, or set of things (Prevent someone else from messing with the timeline, et cetera).
I think that the Time Travel sequence, if it covers a whole book, will tie up most of the loose ends we have from Proven Guilty/Small Favor/Maybe Others I can't remember.
I also think that Time Travel will prove to be so difficult and unpractical that Harry will never try it again.
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updated to add a poll. Please let me know if there is any options to add or change the wording.
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I think Harry will travel back in time. I think it'll explain several things that happened. What's more, I think he's going to get SHOT back in time and he'll "skip" a few times, setting up the ability for him to wrap up a few loose threads (like the little Chicago fix, and who hit him with a car)
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A lot depends on the specific story being told. For example; and I'm just making this up on the fly, it's not an idea or scenario that merits serious discussion, if at the end of the series we find that Harry = the original Merlin, and we find that Harry has learned new complex kinds of magic that Bob isn't familiar with, and he goes back in time to build Demonreach and do the other stuff Merlin did like start the White Council, then nothing has really changed except our perception of Harry, plus it's also how the story ends and how Harry leaves the stage.
If Harry travels back to a previous story like Proven Guilty and nothing changes, or perhaps Harry prevents another time traveller from making changes to the timeline, there could still be a major impact on the rest of the series from what Harry learns from his time travel adventure. It doesn't matter if Mab = Murphy or Molly, it could be something else of major import.
There is also a third possibility. There's an episode of the old Twilight Zone where through some unexplained process a character goes back in time to the night when Abraham Lincoln was killed and he tries to prevent the assassination from occurring. He fails of course, but does change one small detail in the timeline. A police officer who believes the time traveller tries to warn his superiors that the President needs protection and even though he fails his diligence is remembered which leads to his promotion and eventually, we are told, he became Chief of Police and with his higher salary and probably with some advice from upper class contacts, he made some investments which made him a millionaire. At the end of the story we see a character who was just a waiter serving a bunch of wealthy men discussing time travel at the beginning of the story, is now one of the wealthy men telling them how his family came into its fortune. So Jim could do something similar. He could send Harry back in time and have all the major events of the original story happen just the way they did before, but TT Harry has a conversation with someone, and through that conversation he alters the future in some subtle but important way.
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Hey, I had future Harry overlayed on Harry talking to Mrs spunklecrief in changes. I also had a time plot in the background centered on the exact daggers used in the sacrifice at ci. I think there were shenanigans involved in which dagger was used.
Maybe there was someone who did a small alteration in the past that caused a butterfly effect in the future. Harry will actually visit several points in the past trying to figure out where the alteration was made?
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updated to add a poll. Please let me know if there is any options to add or change the wording.
The Serack format is to have "Other" listed as the first option. Not that it really matters, but it apparently helps.
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I think jim gonna use time travel diffrently then we think. not like amber or he pops to one or two years past to fix a non important tool in his arsenal. if i write the time travel part i make it so he goes way back to ether the original merlin times or ancient egypt to chase and stop big bad from crashing the timeline.
travel to Merlin era gives us much cleaner focus on knight of cross harry Dresden while going ancient Egypt gives us excuse to uncover the nicks past and maybe save lash way before she becomes the lashciel we know.
also time travel to fix little chicago feels cheap while ability to call Nicodemus by his oldest name works much better as end of book harry calling biggest denarian by his true name makes perfect note to signal the harry become the bigger power between them.
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Added an other option.
It feels like most people would like to see time travel happen, but want it limited to just one book.
I like the idea that Harry goes back in time to well before Harry was born and has to assist with a problem.
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I want Harry to go back in time, trip up Sue, which causes her to die.
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One book that changes they way we see many events throughout the series. I want to see how early cases were going from outside Harry's POV. I want to see how bad things would have been if any of his cases went the other way. Like what would have happened if he hadn't stopped Victor Sells and the 3 Eye went nation wide, if the FBI went furry vigilante, or if Bianca's plan had worked out better for her. The most obvious would be to go back to PG and fix the intentional plot holes. But I would love to see more of Bianca's plan or the powers that started Victor or Denton down their path of twisting intentions.
Actual prediction: one book that follow the TL of most of the series, elucidating the motivations of many players without giving away too much. Late in the series, probably after the wrestling one, which will give us a look back at the series as a whole, in a way that Mirror Mirror gives us Dresden but for a small difference a la It's a Wonderful Life.
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So its looking like people are thinking that the time travel book will have some major implications to the whole series. Do you guys think that we are dealing with a stable time loop or that once harry goes back he will come back to a different 'present' based on his actions in the past.
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So its looking like people are thinking that the time travel book will have some major implications to the whole series. Do you guys think that we are dealing with a stable time loop or that once harry goes back he will come back to a different 'present' based on his actions in the past.
I predict a stable time loop. A case of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouAlreadyChangedThePast
It would keep the current canon stable, but would have an impact on how Harry perceives himself, and likely remove some lingering doubts and self-flagellative tendencies ("If only I had done X, I could have Y," etc.) If Harry changes events too much, then it could have drastic effects on the present, like Harry no longer being the Winter Knight, never becoming the Warden, the Red Court still hanging around, et cetera. I don't think the series needs a reset button; the only thing I can think of that did it well was the SyFy show Eureka, and that was sort of necessary because it was drowning in too many unsolvable plot issues.
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I predict a stable time loop. A case of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouAlreadyChangedThePast
It would keep the current canon stable, but would have an impact on how Harry perceives himself, and likely remove some lingering doubts and self-flagellative tendencies ("If only I had done X, I could have Y," etc.) If Harry changes events too much, then it could have drastic effects on the present, like Harry no longer being the Winter Knight, never becoming the Warden, the Red Court still hanging around, et cetera. I don't think the series needs a reset button; the only thing I can think of that did it well was the SyFy show Eureka, and that was sort of necessary because it was drowning in too many unsolvable plot issues.
Loved that show. Sad that Netflix and SyFy didn't renew.
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Oh, it was great. Nice, family-friendly content with fun science-fictiony elements. SyFy's made some good stuff in the last decade. Pity they're not doing more of this stuff now. Alphas, Warehouse 13, and Eureka was a great trifecta.
By the way, to clarify my previous post, I wasn't assuming that anyone thought that the Dresden Files has insurmountable plot issues; if anyone thinks that present-altering time travel is cool, I'm not knocking it. I'm just not sure it can work, or is even necessary.
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By the way, to clarify my previous post, I wasn't assuming that anyone thought that the Dresden Files has insurmountable plot issues; if anyone thinks that present-altering time travel is cool, I'm not knocking it. I'm just not sure it can work, or is even necessary.
I think that present-altering time travel can have its places and can drive different parts of a plot. (see current show Timeless) I just sometimes feel that if you make the present-changes too big it can seem like a cop out or getting the writer out of a corner they got stuck in. It is much harder to use in a positive way. It reminds me of the scene from Misery where Kathy Bates is complaining about the chapter shorts (He didn't get out of the COCKADOODIE CAR!)
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I think that present-altering time travel can have its places and can drive different parts of a plot. (see current show Timeless) I just sometimes feel that if you make the present-changes too big it can seem like a cop out or getting the writer out of a corner they got stuck in. It is much harder to use in a positive way. It reminds me of the scene from Misery where Kathy Bates is complaining about the chapter shorts (He didn't get out of the COCKADOODIE CAR!)
That's my biggest complaint about time travel in general. It's too easy to solve narrative issues with "He went back in time, put a pencil on top of a doorknob, and now his wife is alive in the present."
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My arguments have been that there has already been time traveling shenanigans that have taken place and we are largely reading the resultant effects. So, Murphy has already gone back in time to ascend to Mab. ETC. ETC. We just need to get to the place in the books where we actually see the send off occur. Now, if you don't like that particular specific the template still stands. The time travel into the past has already occurred by many entities from very powerful to minor mortals. This way the series is preserved as read but there can still be minor fluctuations while we read the series due to free will, choices made, etc. We have to keep in mind that there is the possibility of these other Mirror realities like that which will occur in Mirror Mirror. These may have every right to exist like our own series, but I think our series read has 'Reader Preference.'
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My arguments have been that there has already been time traveling shenanigans that have taken place and we are largely reading the resultant effects. So, Murphy has already gone back in time to ascend to Mab. ETC. ETC. We just need to get to the place in the books where we actually see the send off occur. Now, if you don't like that particular specific the template still stands. The time travel into the past has already occurred by many entities from very powerful to minor mortals. This way the series is preserved as read but there can still be minor fluctuations while we read the series due to free will, choices made, etc. We have to keep in mind that there is the possibility of these other Mirror realities like that which will occur in Mirror Mirror. These may have every right to exist like our own series, but I think our series read has 'Reader Preference.'
See I would read this as a stable time loop, although I know that is not the exact definition. I just don't want to go back in time, come back and have Susan alive and not red-fected, Maggie still around, Molly not WL, Harry not WK etc.
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See I would read this as a stable time loop, although I know that is not the exact definition. I just don't want to go back in time, come back and have Susan alive and not red-fected, Maggie still around, Molly not WL, Harry not WK etc.
Ha, not likely. That would involve Jim being nice to Harry.
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See I would read this as a stable time loop, although I know that is not the exact definition. I just don't want to go back in time, come back and have Susan alive and not red-fected, Maggie still around, Molly not WL, Harry not WK etc.
I agree. This is why I structured my time travel theories with this in mind. The series being read is largely preserved even though there is time travel effects occurring in the background. I think there is tension in the books where bad guys are trying to derail what we are reading up until the send off. Then once the send off occurs I think we will see more wiggle room of things become more up in the air but it will involve other timelines more so than just necessarily the history of the one we read.
( I view the tension of the early books as trying to sabotage Harry, Murphy and Marcone and their Fates. I further see them being intertwined via time traveling plots. To add further spice and twists to the early books, I place Marcone being descended from Harry and Murphy/Mab, such that entities are trying to kill off Mab/Murphy's son with Harry.)
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I certainly fall in the Stable Time Loop Camp. I don't think the TT will go beyond the scope of the case files for a few reasons. The first being that traveling through time is difficult and the more time you wish to cover the more energy it would take as per CD. Secondly, I think there is WoJ that Harry will break all the Laws of Magic before the BAT. I assume it will be similar the way he has broken the others, (technically, i.e. Raising Sue, Molly's mind in GS, etc) Thirdly, with Harry fulfilling more Starborn attributes he is becoming more a fulcrum thus making affecting Harry the best way to affect outcomes. Lastly, fixing all the story lines by adding prequels, in essence, feels sloppy and cheap. This series has a structure and I have enjoyed uncovering it.
I would be fine with a Quantum Leap style with either TTHarry being inside Past Harry or maybe helpful janitors in train stations. Esp with Bonnie as his Ziggy being able to remember everything from Harry's memory.
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Actually, I think Jim may use the TT book to let us see how some of the "inconsistencies" really aren't. LIKE, who fixed little Chicago. Harry did.
I doubt it'll be the case, but I could see him doing that too.
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I agree. I think TTHarry fixed/ LC. He meets all the criteria for someone to able to fix it and PG is rife with TT explanations and pointed out "inconsistencies."
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Actually, I think Jim may use the TT book to let us see how some of the "inconsistencies" really aren't. LIKE, who fixed little Chicago. Harry did.
I doubt it'll be the case, but I could see him doing that too.
I do think Harry is the one who did. Either his memory of it is gone, or it hasn't happened yet. Other than him, no one that I know of had means, motive, and opportunity.
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There is another person in proven guilty that Harry was telling all his plans to...Murphy. if there is anyone other than Harry, lash, Bonnie, lasciel that could track Harry's plans in pg it would be Murphy. Mab would go without saying.
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Other, cause I forsee two direct time travel loops, one which is basically reality itself...
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I can see their being a Prime Reality in the nature of Ambers predominant Shadow one shadow removed from Prime. This would be similar in respects to the Prime Reality (or at least close to Prime Reality) that Harry finds himself in when he is taken to Uriel's office in Ghost Story. I think the things that occur in this reality is more substantial and meaningful, more endurable than in other places. I think when it comes down to the biggest of fights we will once again be on this Plane of Existence or an existence even closer to the Prime One. And Uriel is assembling his Army to fight on this field.
I think in the end there will need to be a set of Harry's or one Harry that needs to be closest to this Prime Reality than the alternates. Our Harry, the one that makes the best choice for the Multiverse/Universe needs to be this Harry Prime. In this way, his Choice becomes the most enduring and that choice propagates in all (most all) Shadow Realities.
In the end, I think the struggle for Harry and his allies (those favorable to multiverse/universe) is to compete to be in the privileged position of Prime, perhaps even with respact to which timeline ought to take precedence. So time manipulation when it comes down to time travel may be attempts to thread the needle to get into this position ultimately.
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Ha, not likely. That would involve Jim being nice to Harry.
Unless of course he does that to a different Harry, and our Harry shows up in that timeline and sees the life he could have had, only to then have to leave- or worse, destroy Happy!Harry's idealistic life himself for 'The Greater Good' (Shut it)
That I can see Jim doing.
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I can't imagine Jim using Time Travel to rewrite history entirely. I mean, if he goes back in time to, say, GP, saves Susan from becoming a vampire, etc... It basically means that the entire plot of several of the books just doesn't happen any more, why bother reading them, just skip them and let the recap in the book fill you in on whatever you missed.
Now, it MAY change how we view some of the events that have happened, another perspective on motivations, whatnot and so forth. Find out who was behind certain mysteries, and the like. But for changing events as written in any fundamental way? I doubt it.
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I can't imagine Jim using Time Travel to rewrite history entirely. I mean, if he goes back in time to, say, GP, saves Susan from becoming a vampire, etc... It basically means that the entire plot of several of the books just doesn't happen any more, why bother reading them, just skip them and let the recap in the book fill you in on whatever you missed.
Because the reader will see what changes occur because of the time travel change made. Not saying it will happen but if it did you could see the good, and bad things that happen because of Harry's choices. Something you couldn't really do if you skipped ahead as you suggested.